Thread: Paul Butler to be new bishop of Durham Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
I have to confess, I've never heard of the man. But as he's going to be my bishop for the foreseeable future (or the next five minutes, in the case of ++Welby), should we northern folk be afraid, very afraid, or is my bunting due for an airing?
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
I knew him years ago, as a Scripture Union staff worker and then a Curate in Walthamstow. To my mind he was the best kind of Evangelical ... I would have thought he was a bit different to the usual academic "Durham" type but that could be completely wrong!
 
Posted by SyNoddy (# 17009) on :
 
Get that Bunting out!
He's a wonderful bishop and you're really jammy to be getting him.
My experience of bishops was limited to observing them at confirmation and ordination services but Bishop Paul is 'mug of coffee' type of guy who makes it his business to share the peace with every person in the congregation. He remembers names and goes out of his way to get out amongst local communities to meet people in their daily lives.
Well done the people of Durham, you've just won first prize in the bishop raffle [Yipee]
 
Posted by IntellectByProxy (# 3185) on :
 
We knew him well when he was our vicar in Walthamstow, and then coincidentally when we moved even further south and he was our under-Bishop in Southampton, then latterly he was Bishop of Nottingham.

We should be very, very excited that he is to become Bishop of Durham. He is moderate, smart, and a great guy. Moreover he is totally Kingdom-minded.

Be pleased. We all should be.
 
Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Get that Bunting out!
[snipped all the rest of the love-in]

He is not however the greatest fan of SSM - I haven't come across anything about his view of/how he treats LGBT people in general so will assume that he is a pleasant, pastorally minded person who holds misguided views...
 
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
For a very nice minute there I thought that the Red Rector was the Paul Butler being spoke of.

[ 12. September 2013, 10:18: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]
 
Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
I think you can be pretty confident. I think he's a 'safe pair of hands' appointment to give Durham a Bishop for a good period of time. He's 57, this is his third episcopal role, and my guess is it'll be his last. I think he'll be an engaged, pastorial Bishop in a Diocese that's had two long vacancies and ++Justin in for a short time.

He's also been eminently sensible as the Bishops' representative with regards to safeguarding.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
For a very nice minute there I thought that the Red Rector was the Paul Butler being spoke of.

No! We need him in our Deanery Synod!
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Get that Bunting out!
[snipped all the rest of the love-in]

He is not however the greatest fan of SSM - I haven't come across anything about his view of/how he treats LGBT people in general so will assume that he is a pleasant, pastorally minded person who holds misguided views...
Given how few bishops ARE fans of SSM though...! I agree with you that things should change, but I think the bishop's views are pretty normal as far as CoE bishops go. Things are changing though, albeit very slowly.
 
Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Given how few bishops ARE fans of SSM though...!

But at least some had the sense not to sign the coalition for marriage petition...
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
For a very nice minute there I thought that the Red Rector was the Paul Butler being spoke of.

So did I - he would have been brilliant.
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
He was my vicar in Walthamstow as well, and one of the best. You haven't heard of him because he has got on with his job, and not made the headlines. I think that is a good thing, in general.

On the positive side, while he might not be openly in support of SSM, he is a good, caring and open person, who would (as far as I remember) a) not discriminate against those who disagree with him b) change his mind in the face of good evidence ( unlikely, yes, but possible )

You might not agree with him, but you are very lucky to have him. You cannot expect to always agree with your bishop, but having one who is open and accepting is a good second best.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
This is pretty much unalloyed joy. I look forward to handing him a mug of extra-strength church tea (it is when I make it [Snigger] ) and having a natter.
 
Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
He's been my bishop for a short while and my contacts with him have been two services which have been a marvellous mix of formal and informal.

All my friends who know more of him are gutted that he is going. Delighted for him, of course, but still gutted.
 
Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :
 
Oh dear, I'm feeling my age. Wondered why there was so much interest in his views on Self Supporting Ministry.....
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Glad it wasn't just me getting it wrong, then....

[Hot and Hormonal]

Ian J.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This is pretty much unalloyed joy. I look forward to handing him a mug of extra-strength church tea (it is when I make it [Snigger] ) and having a natter.

So it actually sees a teabag?

Jengie
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This is pretty much unalloyed joy. I look forward to handing him a mug of extra-strength church tea (it is when I make it [Snigger] ) and having a natter.

So it actually sees a teabag?
When me and young Master Tor are on the coffee rota, I make the tea, he makes the coffee. I use a bare minimum of 12 tea bags in the pot, and his coffee is like rocket fuel.

We ought to offer it before the service. [Snore]
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Geez, how big is your teapot?
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Geez, how big is your teapot?

It brings all the boys to the yard, if that's what you're asking... [Biased]

Probably about six-eight pints. Standard catering size for a UK church, surely. I shall also refer you to this. I'm surprised we don't sing it as part of the service.
 
Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :
 
Just to add that Paul is a great appointment. He has mission at his heart, he's great pastorally, and he's held that tricky little safeguarding portfolio really nimbly. Generous orthodoxy theologically.

For those who run all episcopal appointments through the lens of a positive attitude to same sex marriage, he doesn't fulfil what you might want. He's a mainline open evangelical, and that's where most of us are.

I'm glad for Durham, the diocese of my ordination, that someone is going to be there who will build on the positive work Justin did in the short time he was there.

[ 13. September 2013, 10:07: Message edited by: pete173 ]
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
On the positive side, while he might not be openly in support of SSM, he is a good, caring and open person

Sad as it is, you're probably right that for the CoE that's a positive ...

quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
For those who run all episcopal appointments through the lens of a positive attitude to same sex marriage, he doesn't fulfil what you might want. He's a mainline open evangelical, and that's where most of us are.

So much for the "open" part then ...

+Pete, has it occurred to you that for gay and lesbian Anglicans (as opposed to headline-seeking members of the episcopal chattering classes), how their bishop will respond to them isn't some pet issue, or one "lens" among many, but immediately relevant to their future in the church? If your preferment depended on whether your diocesan believe Mrs Pete ought to be put away so as not to scandalise the faithful, how quickly would it become your own lens!
 
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
*cough cough* This thread is about Bishop Paul Butler not about the CoE's views on SSM, right? (Mind, there's at least one post in this thread on that topic that I'd very much like to see discussed, but it should be in DH, not here.)

Gwai,
Purgatory Host
 
Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :
 
I have a question which has nothing to do with the new blokes views on SSM.

Bishops of Durham: In the eighties you had David Jenkins - when Yes, Prime Minister insinuated that the senior clergy of the Church of England were a bit equivocal over this whole Christianity lark they probably had DJ in mind. In the early nineties you had some kind of odd kind of Aff Cath Careyite managerialist. Since he departed it's been NT Wright, Blessed Justin Welby (pbuh) and now Paul Butler.

Now I think that NT Wright, BJW and (I imagine, knowing nothing about him) the Newest Broom are a step in the right direction despite being kinda sorta Aff. Cath. myself. But how did this happen? Was there a shift in power in the Diocesan Synod? Did the CAC decide "never again" after Jenkins?

Seriously, Durham has gone from being a synonym for doubtful belief to being a hotbed of evangelial piety. I have no complaint but would be interested to know how and why.
 
Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :
 
It does seem that Durham has become reserved for a moderate Evangelical. Of course, the last several bishops of London have been respectively pretty high (Richard Chartres), quite high (David Hope), and very high indeed (Graham Leonard). All three probably more conservative than not theologically, and each a rather flamboyant showman in his own way.

Before Monsignor Leonard (as he was at his deat), Bishops of London seem to have been mostly rather Broad Church fellows in donnish glasses (including a fair few future Primates of All England).

So, yes, the character of bishoprics does change, sometimes as much by chance as anything else.

[ 13. September 2013, 21:36: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]
 
Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :
 
I don't go with this "character of bishoprics" stuff any more. The old predictability about Durham being for academics and Liverpool being sort of evo doesn't work

(a) because the Diocesan six now get a bigger say in what goes on and they won't necessarily follow received wisdom

(b) because it's much more horses for courses (with Durham, the question is "who's going to be able to take forward the Welby reformist agenda and work with the Diocese to turn it around")

(c) because the missional and reforming types tend to be at the evangelical end of the spectrum - regrettably, the lib caths still tend to be risk averse and non-boat-rockers. We need some gutsy catholic leaders of change and mission, please.

(d) the Jenkins factor still plays quite strongly - there are enough folk in most Dioceses who want a bishop who can give ex animo assent to the creeds (and Jenkins is [wrongly] thought not to have done that). So liberal thinkers get pretty short shrift in the process (Nick Holtham being an honourable exception)

The London question is a bit different. As always. After Graham Leonard, we wanted orthodoxy without favouritism and partisanship. I was on the CAC (now CNC) for David Hope and Richard Chartres. They were precisely the sort of Bishop we prayed and hoped for. Definitely not ultramontanes like Leonard, and able to allow diversity, encourage growth, and create circumstances in which the Kingdom could flourish and take root. Again, it's not a question of "they have to be catholics" (though that helps!) It's that they've made mission possible and stopped the Diocese being an introverted playground for a particular sort of gin and lace brigade, which Leonard encouraged, but which was taking the Church down a silly cul-de-sac. David Hope turned that round. Richard Chartres (and team) are building on that.
 
Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :
 
I don't go with this "character of bishoprics" stuff any more. The old predictability about Durham being for academics and Liverpool being sort of evo doesn't work

(a) because the Diocesan six now get a bigger say in what goes on and they won't necessarily follow received wisdom

(b) because it's much more horses for courses (with Durham, the question is "who's going to be able to take forward the Welby reformist agenda and work with the Diocese to turn it around")

(c) because the missional and reforming types tend to be at the evangelical end of the spectrum - regrettably, the lib caths still tend to be risk averse and non-boat-rockers. We need some gutsy catholic leaders of change and mission, please.

(d) the Jenkins factor still plays quite strongly - there are enough folk in most Dioceses who want a bishop who can give ex animo assent to the creeds (and Jenkins is [wrongly] thought not to have done that). So liberal thinkers get pretty short shrift in the process (Nick Holtham being an honourable exception)

The London question is a bit different. As always. After Graham Leonard, we wanted orthodoxy without favouritism and partisanship. I was on the CAC (now CNC) for David Hope and Richard Chartres. They were precisely the sort of Bishop we prayed and hoped for. Definitely not ultramontanes like Leonard, and able to allow diversity, encourage growth, and create circumstances in which the Kingdom could flourish and take root. Again, it's not a question of "they have to be catholics" (though that helps!) It's that they've made mission possible and stopped the Diocese being an introverted playground for a particular sort of gin and lace brigade, which Leonard encouraged, but which was taking the Church down a silly cul-de-sac. David Hope turned that round. Richard Chartres (and team) are building on that.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Pete, that was good enough to say twice. [Smile]
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
I don't go with this "character of bishoprics" stuff any more. The old predictability about Durham being for academics and Liverpool being sort of evo doesn't work

Does that mean that we might get an Anglo-catholic in place of James Jones? [Ultra confused]
 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Something odd certainly happened to Durham after Jenkins. Although there were some excellent academic and pastoral bishops who could have been appointed, there was the bizarre appointment of Michael Turnbull who was certainly a "Careyite managerialist".
 
Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:

=We need some gutsy catholic leaders of change and mission, please.


Presumably the (proposed but ultimately scuttled) appointment of Philip North to Whitby had precisely this in mind, before it was scuttled by entrenched views on a certain dead horse. Actually, between Philip North and Jeffrey John, it does seem like a lot of proposed Anlgo-Catholic appointments have been scuttled by various dead horse issues.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Can we have Jeffrey John in Liverpool please?
 
Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Can we have Jeffrey John in Liverpool please?

Why not? He'd be better than the "I'm not gay, but I'm not anti-gay" type of bish.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I'd be delighted. But amazed.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
So would I - but it is worthy of note that today is 'Inclusive Church Sunday', marking ten years since Jeffrey was asked to stand down.

We had a good congregation today just as we did ten years ago when they all turned out en masse to an LGCM Prayer Vigil back then.

[ 15. September 2013, 12:55: Message edited by: leo ]
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
It would make the anti-gay evangelical churches in St Albans very happy to lose him.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It would make the anti-gay evangelical churches in St Albans very happy to lose him.

And many of the rest of us very sad indeed.

I have twice been at St Albans when the blessed Jeffery was preaching (I don't go very often). Both times were superb. I ought to say, though, that the standard of sermons at the Abbey is in general very high indeed, imho.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
It's that they've made mission possible and stopped the Diocese being an introverted playground for a particular sort of gin and lace brigade, which Leonard encouraged, but which was taking the Church down a silly cul-de-sac. David Hope turned that round. Richard Chartres (and team) are building on that.

Gin and lace in a silly cul de sac playground sounds fun.

But perhaps less so with bishops present.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Good to see you back, ACR! [Smile]
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Good to see you back, ACR! [Smile]

Thank you. You are very kind.

[Smile]

[ 15. September 2013, 17:21: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Anyone very worthy who didn't get selected for Durham might wish to keep their eye on Exeter. In fact, Creamtealand is minus a bishop of Exeter and of Plymouth at the moment.
 


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