Ship of Fools: You want fries* with that?

Thread: You want fries* with that? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

A Chicago restaurant "has cooked up a controversial burger of the month for October, garnishing it with an unconsecrated communion wafer and a red wine reduction sauce..."

Since the wafer if not consecrated, I guess this isn't blasphemous. But it certainly shows disrespect.

What do Shippies think?

(*or chips if across the pond)

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I trust they are also offering a Prophetburge with shredded Koran, a Torah Bacon Butty and the Fatman One With Everything Buddhaburger.

Possibly the most irritating thing to the religiously literate (whether or not believers) is that it doesn't really know what it's on about. There are grounds for satirising doctrines (as with anything) but it requires both a knowledge of what you are attacking and a coherent counter position.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

It's attention seeking bullshit. Best ignored.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I imagine the chef says Poo and Bum, and thinks it's very clever.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

Well, rather obviously they are not adding communion wafers for the taste or mouth-feel. Unless cardboard is now Novel Cuisine... Other than for the intentional offensiveness, this appears to be a nice if somewhat pretentious burger. Apparently their cooking is better than their advertising. Pity.

I wonder what all these people will do once Christianity has really become a minority religion unfamiliar to most? How will they generate shock value for financial gain without risk? I guess we will see a return to the pagan ennui of antiquity. We already see signs of desperation in using sex to sell, see the Miley Cyrus debacle. At some point the only thing that remains shocking is that someone is still trying to shock us.

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

What do Shippies think?

(*or chips if across the pond)

I think there are some people who will stoop to just about anything to get publicity.

If the burgers tasted good enough without the garnish of gratuitous religious insults, then they would not need to do this.

Is it offensive? Yes. Do I care? Not really. As long as I do not myself behave like this, how others behave is up to them.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

I wonder how many people will actually order them.

Moo

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

On the same level as wearing a Rosary around your neck as a decorative ornament.

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
On the same level as wearing a Rosary around your neck as a decorative ornament.

Worse, imo. A civilised person might well wear a rosary as decoration, not realising any better. Or they may wear it as devotion and fashion; that is more than possible.

A civilised person would not stick a host on a burger and then eat it. And it can never be an act of devotion.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Wearing rosaries was a thing in olden times, both as a devotional item and a fashion accessory, and still is in Latin America.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

The use of religious imagery for marketing is hardly a new phenomena.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
A Chicago restaurant "has cooked up a controversial burger of the month for October, garnishing it with an unconsecrated communion wafer and a red wine reduction sauce..." ...What do Shippies think?

I think they did it solely to get publicity, and it worked.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

Burgers are almost always served in our church's unconsecrated communion rolls.... [Biased]

Ignore with disdain is my feeling

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

Though I like the naming suggestions tucked away in the comments section -

What's "the controversial burger" called? The holy ghostburger? Cheese-us Christburger? The Blasphemeal?

47 △ ▽
Would you like sacrifries with that?

23 △ ▽

Do they offer various cheeses of Nazareth on it?

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

This reminds me of the time I was in a Catholic bookstore, and I saw two guys who looked like central-casting for a Black Sabbath tribute band scoping out the statues of Jesus and Mary.

I'm guessing the guys were looking for props to use in their next sacrilegious video or stage-show. Might seem pretty disrespectful, but since the store WAS selling the stuff to the general public, they probably don't have much cause to complain.

Anglo-Catholic relict wrote:

quote:
Is it offensive? Yes. Do I care? Not really. As long as I do not myself behave like this, how others behave is up to them.

Yes. As long as they weren't getting consecrated hosts illegitmately, this is really just a case of using props to send up Catholicism. Not much different than a magazine cartoon I saw as a kid, portraying a priest as a bartender serving up Communion wine cocktails with hosts as the side dish. Tasteless, but whatever.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I think it's a gimmick, nothing more nothing less.

The more people get hot under the collar about it the better for the restaurant - more publicity.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The use of religious imagery for marketing is hardly a new phenomena.

I met the woman who had designed that many years earlier. A delightful woman (and a Presbyterian FWIW)!

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The use of religious imagery for marketing is hardly a new phenomena.
I met the woman who had designed that many years earlier. A delightful woman (and a Presbyterian FWIW)!

Did that woman design the original Mercury logo, or one of the later versions? According to wiki and to this somewhat hard-to-read chart, FTD started using Mercury in 1914.

[ 05. October 2013, 16:10: Message edited by: Stetson ]

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The use of religious imagery for marketing is hardly a new phenomena.
I met the woman who had designed that many years earlier. A delightful woman (and a Presbyterian FWIW)!

And I'm pretty certain that she was never taken to task for being disrespectful, or using "attention seeking bullshit", or being intentionally offensive. Likewise chocolate advertized with the descriptor "Mayan" never seems to be criticized despite the religious significance of chocolate in that culture.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
This reminds me of the time I was in a Catholic bookstore, and I saw two guys who looked like central-casting for a Black Sabbath tribute band scoping out the statues of Jesus and Mary.

I'm guessing the guys were looking for props to use in their next sacrilegious video or stage-show. Might seem pretty disrespectful, but since the store WAS selling the stuff to the general public, they probably don't have much cause to complain.

Anglo-Catholic relict wrote:

quote:
Is it offensive? Yes. Do I care? Not really. As long as I do not myself behave like this, how others behave is up to them.
Yes. As long as they weren't getting consecrated hosts illegitmately, this is really just a case of using props to send up Catholicism. Not much different than a magazine cartoon I saw as a kid, portraying a priest as a bartender serving up Communion wine cocktails with hosts as the side dish. Tasteless, but whatever.

Ummm how do you know they didn't want them for devotional purposes? Metal fans can be Christians too.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Ummm how do you know they didn't want them for devotional purposes? Metal fans can be Christians too.

Yeah, true. But, if I was betting money on it, I'd wager they were looking for shock-act props, rather than serious devotional items to decorate their living room. I'm from a Catholic background, and I have known few, if any, seriously devout Catholics who would dress that way, much less would be shopping in pairs for a Marian icon.

In any case, regardless of what those guys were actually doing, I'm pretty sure people do buy iconography for irreligious purposes. My point is that the stores have no valid reason to complain, since they sell the stuff to the general public.

Posted by Mr Tambourine Man (# 15361) on :

In a Strasbourg off license I saw a beer made by monks that claimed to contain communion wafers. It didn't specify whether it was consecrated or not.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Ummm how do you know they didn't want them for devotional purposes? Metal fans can be Christians too.

Yeah, true. But, if I was betting money on it, I'd wager they were looking for shock-act props, rather than serious devotional items to decorate their living room. I'm from a Catholic background, and I have known few, if any, seriously devout Catholics who would dress that way, much less would be shopping in pairs for a Marian icon.

In any case, regardless of what those guys were actually doing, I'm pretty sure people do buy iconography for irreligious purposes. My point is that the stores have no valid reason to complain, since they sell the stuff to the general public.

Yeah, but you're basing this entirely on their clothing choices, which is pretty shitty and discriminatory. What part of being seriously, devoutly Catholic means you can't be into metal and dress like it? [Confused]

I'm from a Catholic background too (grandparents) have never known this to be an issue. Maybe a Pond difference?

People definitely buy religious iconography for irreligious purposes though - I mean Buddha statues being sold as home decorations is surely a prime example.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The use of religious imagery for marketing is hardly a new phenomena.
I met the woman who had designed that many years earlier. A delightful woman (and a Presbyterian FWIW)!
Did that woman design the original Mercury logo, or one of the later versions? According to wiki and to this somewhat hard-to-read chart, FTD started using Mercury in 1914.

Apparently the original -- Gwen Dew would only have been 11, but I remember saying she helped her dad who was a florist.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Croesos wrote:

quote:
And I'm pretty certain that she was never taken to task for being disrespectful, or using "attention seeking bullshit", or being intentionally offensive. Likewise chocolate advertized with the descriptor "Mayan" never seems to be criticized despite the religious significance of chocolate in that culture.

I seriously doubt if anyone has ever been taken to task over eating wafer biscuits or drinking wine, despite their religious significance in Christian cultures.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Likewise chocolate advertized with the descriptor "Mayan" never seems to be criticized despite the religious significance of chocolate in that culture.

That's bad example becaue 1)"Mayan" is an ethnic, cultural, regional and historical descriptor and not a religious one and 2) because chocolate lost the kind of religious significance it had in Pre-Columbian times a long time ago. I can assure you, however, that plenty of modern-day Maya will find reasons to criticize the stunt in the OP.

For what it's worth, the baseball stadium in Mérida, capital city of Yucatán State, is named Kukulkán Baseball Stadium (Kukulkán is the Mayan name for Quetzalcóatl); and when a new soccer stadium was proposed for the Yucatan it was going to be named "Maya Stadium".

[ 05. October 2013, 19:28: Message edited by: Pancho ]

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

In Quebec and in Eastern Ontario, one can purchase bags of the scraps left over when making communion wafer in any grocery store. Apparently just great for a snack with beer in front of the tube.

I can't find a link, but trust me. I saw them in the local grocers last week, and have seen them about for decades. Compared to deep-fried butter as a snack, they rate 1/10 on the offensiveness scale.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Croesos wrote:
quote:
And I'm pretty certain that she was never taken to task for being disrespectful, or using "attention seeking bullshit", or being intentionally offensive. Likewise chocolate advertized with the descriptor "Mayan" never seems to be criticized despite the religious significance of chocolate in that culture.
I seriously doubt if anyone has ever been taken to task over eating wafer biscuits or drinking wine, despite their religious significance in Christian cultures.

And yet here we are, a thread about people being offended by others eating wafer biscuits with a wine reduction.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

You can buy leftover scraps of communion bread in Tijuana, too, and it often has food coloring so it comes in shades of green and red and yellow. The difference between this (and I assume the stuff in Quebec) and stunt in the OP is that the scraps aren't left to resemble communion wafers with a cross stamped upon it, and they aren't sold with grape juice or grape soda. Unlike the OP, there's no allusion made to Holy Communion and no attempt to provoke or offend.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wearing rosaries was a thing in olden times, both as a devotional item and a fashion accessory, and still is in Latin America.

Yes it is. Coincidentally, it's part of the traditional woman's costume in the Yucatan.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

Well I can't see any issue with this whatsoever. Except the wafer's going to be soggy by the time you get to eat it.

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

(*or chips if across the pond)

Well that doesn't really translate. You'd never hear anyone say "you want chips with that?" in the UK. Not even with a pedantic "Do" at the start of the question. If you wanted chips you would have ordered them. (We don't tend to have the same culture of sales masquerading as service that I've seen in the US.)

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's attention seeking bullshit. Best ignored.

Quite right. What George Brown would have called 'a complete ignoral'.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Croesos wrote:

quote:
And yet here we are, a thread about people being offended by others eating wafer biscuits with a wine reduction.

I wonder what kind of wafer that might be? Let's have a guess... I mean, a wafer is a wafer, right? So any old wafer would do, surely?

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Ummm how do you know they didn't want them for devotional purposes? Metal fans can be Christians too.

Yeah, true. But, if I was betting money on it, I'd wager they were looking for shock-act props, rather than serious devotional items to decorate their living room. I'm from a Catholic background, and I have known few, if any, seriously devout Catholics who would dress that way, much less would be shopping in pairs for a Marian icon.

In any case, regardless of what those guys were actually doing, I'm pretty sure people do buy iconography for irreligious purposes. My point is that the stores have no valid reason to complain, since they sell the stuff to the general public.
Yeah, but you're basing this entirely on their clothing choices, which is pretty shitty and discriminatory. What part of being seriously, devoutly Catholic means you can't be into metal and dress like it? I'm from a Catholic background too (grandparents) have never known this to be an issue. Maybe a Pond difference?

Well, to me one of the good things about Catholic churches is the lack of clothes snobbery. I've seen all sorts of people go up to recieve the Eucharist in all sorts of clothing, from work clothes to business suits to hip hop gear (I confess I didn't try to gauge the level of devoutness of the individual clothes-wearers.)

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Ummm how do you know they didn't want them for devotional purposes? Metal fans can be Christians too.

Yeah, true. But, if I was betting money on it, I'd wager they were looking for shock-act props, rather than serious devotional items to decorate their living room. I'm from a Catholic background, and I have known few, if any, seriously devout Catholics who would dress that way, much less would be shopping in pairs for a Marian icon.

Really? What do Catholic heavy metal fans wear then? I'm confused. I'm not Catholic, admittedly, but I'm sat here in a Led Zep t-shirt and if it were a church Sunday I'd be wearing it at the Eucharist.

Posted by ButchCassidy (# 11147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

(*or chips if across the pond)
Well that doesn't really translate. You'd never hear anyone say "you want chips with that?" in the UK. Not even with a pedantic "Do" at the start of the question. If you wanted chips you would have ordered them. (We don't tend to have the same culture of sales masquerading as service that I've seen in the US.) [/QB]

I hear that quite regularly, eg at gourmet burger places, last night at Byron for one occasion. Wheres the issue? Its a restaurant, their job is to sell you food..

Maybe it depends on where you live in the UK, rather than a "Pond difference" (why are Shippies so obsessed with this? Whenever I go to the US, I always think how similar we are). I tend to go to trendy hipster london restaurants, perhaps it hasn't permeated to the provinces yet [Razz]

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Really? What do Catholic heavy metal fans wear then?

I don't know. In my experience, there aren't many, at least not of the sort who would be buying a Marian statue to place in their living room.

And what is my experience, you ask? Well, I went to a Catholic high school that was pretty much Heavy Metal High. The lumber jacket, Eddie shirt, and blue jeans were practically the de facto school uniform.

This school used to have "paraliturgies" for various feast days, attendance at which was not mandatory. The number of students who chose to attend was in the low dozens(out of hundreds who went to the school), and I don't recall many, if any, of them being the kind who wore AC/DC t-shirts. It was more the chess-club and student-government types(dressed accordingly) who would show up. I also don't recall seeing many youth dressed in headbnager gear attending mass down at the local church, unless their parents had dragged them there.

But hey, maybe I am indeed guilty of sartorial profiling. I mean, anything's possible. I probably also shouldn't have assumed that the seventy-year old guy I saw shopping for iconography in a checkered jacket, above-the-waist trousers, and a World's Greatest Grandpa cap was looking for devotional items at all. Could be he and the boys down at the Seniors lodge had an Ozzy tribute band going.

[ 06. October 2013, 14:37: Message edited by: Stetson ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
Maybe it depends on where you live in the UK, rather than a "Pond difference" (why are Shippies so obsessed with this? Whenever I go to the US, I always think how similar we are).

Can we not say "I don't like this" without being accused of being "obsessed with it"? Is there nothing you dislike, yet might mention online, yet not be "obsessed with"?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Really? What do Catholic heavy metal fans wear then?
I don't know. In my experience, there aren't many, at least not of the sort who would be buying a Marian statue to place in their living room.

And what is my experience, you ask? Well, I went to a Catholic high school that was pretty much Heavy Metal High. The lumber jacket, Eddie shirt, and blue jeans were practically the de facto school uniform.

This school used to have "paraliturgies" for various feast days, attendance at which was not mandatory. The number of students who chose to attend was in the low dozens(out of hundreds who went to the school), and I don't recall many, if any, of them being the kind who wore AC/DC t-shirts. It was more the chess-club and student-government types(dressed accordingly) who would show up. I also don't recall seeing many youth dressed in headbnager gear attending mass down at the local church, unless their parents had dragged them there.

But hey, maybe I am indeed guilty of sartorial profiling. I mean, anything's possible. I probably also shouldn't have assumed that the seventy-year old guy I saw shopping for iconography in a checkered jacket, above-the-waist trousers, and a World's Greatest Grandpa cap was looking for devotional items at all. Could be he and the boys down at the Seniors lodge had an Ozzy tribute band going.

I think you're guilty of the Prosecutor's Fallacy. You've decided that a metalhead being a Catholic is very unlikely, so you've assumed that the very unlikely proposition that they're actually wanting the items for nefarious purposes must be correct. But I could equally say that their wanting them for nefarious purposes is unlikely, therefore they "must" be devout Catholics, unlikely as that seems.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
I think you're guilty of the Prosecutor's Fallacy. You've decided that a metalhead being a Catholic is very unlikely, so you've assumed that the very unlikely proposition that they're actually wanting the items for nefarious purposes must be correct.

I think in this case, the Prosecutor's Fallacy would lead more to a conclsion like...

"Since they can't possibly be Marian Catholics, they must be Orangemen buying props for their next lecture on papist idolatry down at the Lodge."

Because where I come from, Orangemen probably number in the dozens, very few of them would be in their early twenties, with fewer still dressing like Iron Maiden roadies. And I doubt that they bother much these days with fevered rsnts against romanish mystery cults.

So, if I were a betting man, I'd give much longer odds to that scenario than to "Guys who dress like headbangers might actually be headbangers, and be as disinterested in Marian worship as most headbangers are, while being as interested in ironic appropriation of religious imagery".

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

How would you know whether metalheads are into Marian devotion? By definition you wouldn't know because advertising it would hurt their tough-guy persona. Not because this proves anything but only to prove that I don't think we should rely on data, the only three people I still know who I have seen headbang to music all are members of an Anglo-Catholic church (that mentions Mary eveyr service). No need to tell me that's no science, but if I were to judge by my current experience, I'd presume that obviously headbangers were into things like Marian devotions!

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
How would you know whether metalheads are into Marian devotion? By definition you wouldn't know because advertising it would hurt their tough-guy persona.

Thinks of all the heavy-metal fans he knows...

One of them might, I suppose, just be said to have a "tough-guy persona". Even though he is a lawyer. Which sort of by definition makes uyou a bit of a nerd, I'd have thought.

Thinks of all the much larger number of heavy-metal fans he used to know twenty or thirty years ago when he was more the age for it...

Nope. Still mostly as cuddly as bunnies.

[ 08. October 2013, 18:43: Message edited by: ken ]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Tough guy was as simplification, but definitely metal fans aren't thought of as a religious group in my experience. People I know don't broadcast their religion, and if they do get lots of "Really? WHY!!" if people do find out.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Is it offensive? Yes. Do I care? Not really. As long as I do not myself behave like this, how others behave is up to them.

That is a healthy and balanced attitude toward many situations in life.

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Apparently the original -- Gwen Dew would only have been 11, but I remember saying she helped her dad who was a florist.

Cool, she was from Albion, MI and was there to dedicate the University of Michigan's stadium (where my graduation was held)! So close to home. Nice to learn this bit of history.

(Sorry for the tangent, though, but I had to respond.)

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

Heston Blumenthal served a communion wafer as part of one of his celebrity banquet programmes a few years back. The meal was a Christmas-themed one, and the wafer smelled of baby powder when you broke it open.

I still can't decide whether that was Very Wrong or Oddly Right.

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