Ship of Fools: Karma

Thread: Karma Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

What is it exactly? I particularly have trouble understanding the idea of bad karma as an explanation for illness or disability.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

I think karma is an attempt to depersonalise human accountability to God in favour of a mechanistic and impersonal sense of spiritual cause and effect.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Isn't it rather like 'one reaps what one sows'?

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Isn't it rather like 'one reaps what one sows'?

Yes it is. Although, in Christian thinking the notion of 'one reaps what ones sows' is never attributed to an impersonal principle of spiritual cause and effect. It is the outworking of personal human accountability to a personal creator God who is judge of all.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Isn't it something to do with chameleons?

...sorry, I'm just leaving [Big Grin]

[ 24. November 2013, 15:12: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I've tended to see it sort of like Daronmedway. At times, I've even thought it was a way to get out of having to feel sympathy for people. I just know I would never want to look at someone with cancer and think, well, that's his bad attitude coming out -- as I've heard someone say.

I guess I asked because I was hoping one of our Buddhist shipmates would give me a broader understanding of it.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

No Buddhist here, but here's a story.

Last week information came into my hands about a Bad Person which would allow me to really go after them. This Bad Person is considered bad by me for persecuted me for about 3 years, starting 8 years ago (and I'm not the only one). This resulted in tremendous stress and awfully foul feelings within me. Thus, on receiving the info, I thought initially "the Lord hath delivered them into mine hands". And I giggled and laughed and if I could dance, I'd have been happy dancing. Karma for sure. Yahoo etc.

Then I calmed down, talked some to sensible people and decided to act like a Christian (dammit anyway, and against my better desires, wants and schadenfreude). So I contacted them and told them (via email, I am not naïve enough to not document) that we needed to solve the problem and avoid Something Worse. Could have happened nicely. But this person has actually chosen the Something Worse. Wants me to make an official report, tell the cavalry to charge. Go figure. Not committed to fulfilling this plot, I am not yet convinced I must follow the karmic plan they desire, and will see what other paths are open.

It could be Karma, or it could be personality disorder I suppose.

Thinking about Judas just now as well. Was it karma he did the nasty?

Posted by Merchant Trader (# 9007) on :

My understanding of Karma is not fate but action or work.

Action is needed to maintain the universe. Action should be selfless i.e. one should do what is right and not worry too much about the consequence, especially the consequence for oneself. If we think too much about outcomes then we cannot avoid being selfish; we should therefore do the right thing (guided by the scriptures - in the Gita, Hindu Scriptures) and trust the outcome to God. In retrospect we may see the outcome as good or bad and refer to that consequence as the result of good or bad Karma but only God knows the final import.

The Bhagavad Gita is the Hindu definitive work on Karma or Karma Yoga and is a call to action, right or selfless action. I can see how the the description may sound fatalist but I think it more akin to personal sacrifice i.e. a call to do the right thing even if there is a cost for oneself and an acceptance that such outcome is in the hand of God.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Isn't it rather like 'one reaps what one sows'?
Yes it is. Although, in Christian thinking the notion of 'one reaps what ones sows' is never attributed to an impersonal principle of spiritual cause and effect. It is the outworking of personal human accountability to a personal creator God who is judge of all.

Um, yeah, No. Karma is understood differently by the various traditions who use the concept.
When I comment on Christianity, it is from the perspective of actually having read your texts and attempting to understand them. It would make a more pleasant and realistic discourse if others would do the same when discussing faiths/outlooks which are not their own.
And slapping Jesus over the covers of others' books is disrespectful.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

So, taking from LilBuddha's link, within the Hinduism tradition there's this:

quote:
Karma is not fate, for humans act with free will creating their own destiny. According to the Vedas, if one sows goodness, one will reap goodness; if one sows evil, one will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determines our future.

From that definition I do get the sense that actions in past lives might cause some really bad reactions in this life. I guess I can't get around the picture of a baby with a birth defect reaping this because of "sowing evil," in a past life.

Posted by Grokesx (# 17221) on :

quote:
From that definition I do get the sense that actions in past lives might cause some really bad reactions in this life. I guess I can't get around the picture of a baby with a birth defect reaping this because of "sowing evil," in a past life.

Is that a more disturbing picture than any of the Christian accounts of innocent suffering?

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Isn't it rather like 'one reaps what one sows'?
Yes it is. Although, in Christian thinking the notion of 'one reaps what ones sows' is never attributed to an impersonal principle of spiritual cause and effect. It is the outworking of personal human accountability to a personal creator God who is judge of all.
Um, yeah, No. Karma is understood differently by the various traditions who use the concept.
When I comment on Christianity, it is from the perspective of actually having read your texts and attempting to understand them. It would make a more pleasant and realistic discourse if others would do the same when discussing faiths/outlooks which are not their own.
And slapping Jesus over the covers of others' books is disrespectful.

Thinking as a Christian about non-Christian things isn't disrespectful. And comparing and contrasting Christian teaching with the teachings of other religions (as I did earlier) isn't disrespectful either.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:

quote:
From that definition I do get the sense that actions in past lives might cause some really bad reactions in this life. I guess I can't get around the picture of a baby with a birth defect reaping this because of "sowing evil," in a past life.
Is that a more disturbing picture than any of the Christian accounts of innocent suffering?

I'm only trying to understand karma, not make comparisons between religions, but, now that you've asked the question, I don't think I've ever seen a Christian explanation that blames the baby for it's own suffering.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Thinking as a Christian about non-Christian things isn't disrespectful. And comparing and contrasting Christian teaching with the teachings of other religions (as I did earlier) isn't disrespectful either.

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I think karma is an attempt to depersonalise human accountability to God in favour of a mechanistic and impersonal sense of spiritual cause and effect.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see this statement as anything other than disrespectful.
When speaking to Christian accountability, I would not say "God is an attempt to redirect personal responsibility onto another being."

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

I guess I asked because I was hoping one of our Buddhist shipmates would give me a broader understanding of it.

It is a difficult question since the various faiths do not agree between each other or within themselves. Various Buddhist traditions see karma differently. And this does not account for the more, ahem, freeform understandings of karma.
I do not agree with the Hindu understanding of karma.
I would state it as good or positive actions result in greater happiness in oneself or others. Negative or bad actions result in greater unhappiness in ourselves or others.
Even accepting there is a general balance, this does not necessarily follow that it is seen in a personal way. The concept of creating harm will result in an equal harm to the perpetrator is a rather simplistic and, for most, inaccurate one.

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't think I've ever seen a Christian explanation that blames the baby for it's own suffering.

Original sin comes close.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

I don't think Purgatory's 10 commandments would deem anything I've said to be inappropriate or particularly disrespectful.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I don't think Purgatory's 10 commandments would deem anything I've said to be inappropriate or particularly disrespectful.

ISTM, they are about disrespecting people here, not concepts. So, no, you likely did not violate those, but that is not what I said.
I do not expect one to agree with religious viewpoints other than one's own.
But Twilight's OP was not about compare and contrast, but simply the nature of the concept itself.

[code]

[ 25. November 2013, 04:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

Hence my saying, "I think..." before offering my opinion.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Original sin comes close.

That would appear true. But not all of us who are Christians accept it, or understand its implications, or are certain at all about it beyond the idea that we are not eternal beings as humans. I have trouble with it along the lines of blaming people before they are even conceived. Though I have to confess I blame mosquitoes that way (and leeches, lots of leeches last summer).

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I have trouble with it along the lines of blaming people before they are even conceived.

As do many when karma is contemplated.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't think I've ever seen a Christian explanation that blames the baby for it's own suffering.
Original sin comes close.

I believe the Church of the East did indeed describe original sin in terms of karma when in India and China. Whether it still does I don't know.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

People get angry about the innocents suffering in the world. There's no doubt that the world is full of injustice and the reaction seems natural and even healthy to me. It is quite common to ask for explanations, and religion is in general in the business of explaining stuff - especially moral stuff that includes the state of the world and personal responsibility.

The fact is that no-one has a very good explanation that makes us all say "Well that's OK then now that I understand it" and so we carry on being a bit angry. And it is natural for some of that anger to focus on the "explanation" that doesn't really work for us.

It seems to me to be one of the biggest objections to a Christian world view (i.e. theodicy) and it seems no surprise to me that Buddhism and/or Hinduism doesn't have a simple make-them-all-happy-again explanation for suffering.

There's the thing about desire being the actual root of suffering (irrespective of one's karma) and karma simply being a bump on the road while one comes to terms with needing to end desire. I think I read that somewhere.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I don't think Purgatory's 10 commandments would deem anything I've said to be inappropriate or particularly disrespectful.
ISTM, they are about disrespecting people here, not concepts.

I'm not sure it's possible to disrespect a concept.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I'm not sure it's possible to disrespect a concept.

That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

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