quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
So if I am, God willing, still compos mentis at age 80, when my kids are grown up and settled, and of course depending on the health of my wife, I would like to stop being alive at that point, before dementia sets in and I change from being me to being the equivalent of a large baby but without the hope and joy.

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Originally posted by deano:
Do you tell the grandkids why grandad has killed himself or do you let them slowly begin only remember the times when you were incontinent?

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
... it isn't her mum there anymore.

It's a lump of biochemical processes that she loves and takes care of...

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

Dementia turns people into noisy, messy sacs of chemical reactions. Your mum or dad isn’t in there anymore.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dyfrig:
Adeodatus has nailed something deeply troubling about the OP.

"It's not her" is really code for "she's not how I want her to be"; these are different things.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
Dementia turns people into noisy, messy sacs of chemical reactions. Your mum or dad isn’t in there anymore.

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quote:

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I do want to be a burden on my loved ones just as I want them to be a burden on me – it's called looking after each other.

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This basic idea makes me recall Matthew 25, and the "parable of the sheep and goats". It would seem we are to be judged on how we care for the hungry, thirsty and those in prison. Perhaps dementia can been seen as a prison.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
In wartime people are given cyanide pills to be used in case of emergency , to escape torture and so on .
Many wasting conditions , esp those associated with old age, don't seem much different from torture to me, apart from the fact that the living hell goes on much longer .

Yes of course it's a problem in having to to say granny or grandpa committed suicide . There is a stigma attached to suicide which stems from the olden days. I don't believe this is relevant today when considering the life prolonging technologies that are available and , more disturbingly , people being kept alive against their will .

There used to be a saying that went 'Pneumonia is the old man's friend'. Our ancestors knew full well the trauma of lingering on painfully for no good reason .
 

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Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :
 
I remember a conversation with a hospital sister about a parishoner who was suffering from dementia and depression - her son had died comparatively recently and it's fair to say she never recovered from the shock.

The nurse said: "She keeps saying she wants to die because she doesn't want to be a burden on her family any more, but actually her family are still grieving for [the son] and don't want to grieve for her as well".

The last few years of her life were pretty bloody awful, actually, and I'm not sure to what extent those of us who tried to support her were able to help.

Later that year it became apparent that my Grandmother was no longer able to cope with living by herself. We went to see her for her 90th birthday, in the knowledge that if she missed that one she might not be around for her 91st and, a few months later I ended up conducting her funeral.

Dementia sucks like a Dyson and there are no good things to be said about it. But neither in my parishoners case nor my Grandmother's case did I feel that matters would be improved if, say, I held a pillow over their faces until they stopped breathing. I desperately wanted my parishoner and my grandmother back to the time when they were sharp as tacks and funny and happy but killing them would have been about addressing my sense of loss and my unwillingness to care for them. Not about meeting their needs.
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
As others have given their experiences, let me add mine.

My mother had Alzheimer's and dementia. My brothers and I were able to look after her for a time in her home. Then (with her agreement) we moved her to a managed care facility. She loved that because it was near her youngest grandchildren. As she continued to decline (and that is the thing with Alzheimer's--it can always get worse; don't kid yourself otherwise), anyway, as she continued to decline we were able to get her to a higher level of care facility. By that point Mom still knew us, but was otherwise pretty well out of it (at the managed care place we could find her in most any room because she could never remember which one was her room).

At the higher level of care place, she declined further, to the point where she no longer spoke coherently; clearly had no idea who anybody was; and needed help feeding. Eventually, she went into a coma state and was taken to the hospital. Now, she had an advanced health care directive which stated that no permanent feeding tube was to be used. However, while there was still a chance of reviving her, a temporary tube could be used. So at the hospital she had the temporary tube for food and hydration.

And finally it was decided that she had slipped so far that she could not be revived. And this is when it came down to me. You see, of all my brothers I was the one charged with the authority under the healthcare directive to make decisions for her. I had to agree to the decision to send her to hospice care...and I had to be the one to tell the doctor to remove the feeding tube. Knowing perfectly well that, because of that, she would die from lack of nutrition (hydration would be maintained, of course). In short, I had to be the one to decide to let my mother die. The fact that the directive controlled my actions didn't change the sick feeling in my stomach--I was condemning her to death.

Here is the thing: As they were transporting her from the hospital to the hospice, she died of cardiac arrest en route. Two points to take from this. Mom had always said that she did not want to die in a hospital. She didn't. She got her wish. And, by dying when she did, still filled with the nutrition from the temporary feeding tube, my decision to stop it did not hasten her death. Even at the end, when all her consciousness was gone, my mom was still looking out for me and taking care of me. She found a way to ease my feelings of guilt.

I still struggle with the knowledge that I had to make the decision that I did, and knowing that it was the right decision to make does not make it any easier. But I am still amazed that, even at the stage she was, Mom managed to make things easier on her baby boy.

Deciding to end the life of a loving and loved parent is just not that easy to make.

Now, I know the OP was about taking one's own life to avoid this end. But I agree with the other posters who suggest that picking an arbitrary age makes no sense: My father lived to his late 80s; his brother into his 90s; his father into his 90s. All three had full possession of their mental faculties. I wouldn't trade those final years with my father for anything.

But if you wait until you have symptoms, you have to decide when is enough. Heck, if I took my own life when I got a little absentminded, I would never have made it out of my teens. It is sort of a Catch-22: when the dementia is bad enough to justify taking your own life, it will probably be too bad for you to make that decision. But taking your own life before then would be a waste.

I apologize. After all this, I don't think I have actually advanced the discussion any. But I feel better having written it. Not as many tears as I expected. Maybe I am finally coming to terms with telling the doctor to let my mother die. Ever mention how much I love the Ship?
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
On Christmas Day, my 92-year-old grandmother, in a fit of despair, expressed her desire to die more clearly than I've ever heard from her before. She'd just spent the last 2 months in hospital, had got out a few days before to come down for Christmas with my parents, was watching her daughter be incredibly stressed at playing 'nurse' and was stressed herself as they were arguing.

Two weeks later, she's finally back in her own home, living alone like she has for the last couple of decades at least but with a fantastically helpful neighbour and various other bits of support and assistance, happily getting on with life.

Life has its ups and downs. I don't see why, after you get to an arbitrary age, anyone should be pushed into thinking during a 'down' that there won't be any more 'ups'.
 

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Posted by Amika (# 15785) on :
 
I don't think there can be an arbitrary age as there are so many hearty older people still enjoying life. I am, though, watching quite a few of my mum's neighbours begin to have problems now that they're in their 70s.

I'm currently watching my mum, aged 74 and having had a stroke at 70, grind her way through life with little to no pleasure, no longer even willing to smile except rarely. To hear her laugh is almost diary-worthy.

I do everything I can to try to help and give her some enjoyment in life, but she just can't 'cheer up' (despite anti-depressants). She can't accept the disabilities the stroke has left her with and her curtailed existence. She hasn't, and I now have to accept never will, come to terms with it.

My sister and I have decided that we would 'top ourselves' if we were put into our mum's position - dependent on us and carers for almost everything, housebound without assistance - but despite telling me regularly how miserable she feels my mum doesn't express any desire to die and the topic doesn't come up.

Like the OP, I don't want to be cared for in my old age. I don't even want to reach 'old age' if it means infirmity - or rather significantly dependent or painful infirmity. Likewise I don't want to carry on living if I have dementia. I watched my dad disappear with this and be replaced by someone who was tormented - there's no other way to put it - in his last few months.

Mere existence on this level is in my opinion simply not worth it, but I can't know whether I would feel the same if I were in either of these situations myself. People just keep on going on, like my mum does, but I hope I would be able to override the survival instinct and end it.
 

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Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 
Going by my experience of teaching the mentally ill, emotionally disturbed, autistic and the intellectually challenged as well as my fathers death several years ago, and my mother rapidly getting very much "elderly" and in need of care, I don't think that families in our society are prepared to handle caring daily for our parents as they age into disability.

I think that we value nuclear families and not extended families. And I don't think that's neccesarily bad. It's just who we are. I think that if it was expected that we live with our children and grandchildren, it would be much easier, and less of a burden to care for the infirm of the family. I know my mother has made it VERY clear, that she does NOT want to live with us, as has been suggested. (Boy, did she ever). She values, as we do in our culture, independence.

The last thing I want is to ever burden my children with my daily care if and when I get to that point. Again, if their way of life was living with extended family and sharing the burdens of that, I might be ok with it. Invariably, the elderly who don't have nursing home care, live with one family, with the care generally falling on one set of shoulders. That's too hard. You can liken it to raising small children with some very important emotional distinctions. One is that children are expected to grow up. Caring for the elderly is like going backwards. The other is that most people grow up with parents who are their caregiver, and to have those roles reversed is extremely difficult to handle.

I agree with the poster that said that the elderly with dementia can have joy in their lives. It's similar to the handicapped. Of course, the severely impaired can experience joy. Therefore, I'm not in favor of euthanasia (not to be confused with the stipulations in a living will) I actually think this joy might be better achieved with the elderly with GOOD nursing home care then leaving it all to the children, or, child, because of the values that our culture holds and how we are structured. I think our society should work on having excellent nursing home care, of which we do not yet have for all.
 

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Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Thing of it is dementia can creep up very quietly and over a long period of time. We finally realized my dad had dementia when one day he did not remember were her parked the car. Oh, there were times when he forgot what he was looking for and forgot names or could not remember things in the short term. He continued to remember things in the distance though. He never forgot who I was or any of his other kids, though he may not have recognized some of his great grandchildren.

On the other hand, my brother developed dementia relatively early in his life. The doctor said it was primarily caused by not having the right connections between the two hemispheres of his brain. He still lives alone. He can drive to my mother's house and back. He forgets to eat, but we now have meals on wheels coming to him. Eventually we will have to place him in assisted living, but Mom will not have it while she is his guardian.

But there are moments when his recall is as clear as a bell. A few months ago, when I was home, I had an old childhood friend stop by. It seemed to have triggered a flood of memories for my brother. He was engaged and really enjoyed the visit.

Yes, I think people should have Livings Wills set up that specify what one wants done when incapacitated; but I do not think active suicide could be my choice. I would not want my grandchildren to think it is okay to kill themselves just because life has gotten rough for them. When a family member does commit suicide it seems to give other family members permission to do so too.

No, at what point would you know your dementia has gotten to be too much? Just because you forget a few names? Just because you can't remember what you were doing, or where you placed your glasses?
Or is it when you can't remember where you parked your car?

As has been pointed out, people with some types of dementia can still function and enjoy their life in spite of their limitations.
 

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Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :
 
First to all the families represented by the preceeding posts my sympathies .
My mother died 5 years ago she had had a heart attack and had dementia . It crept up slowly and then I had to deal with it. I don't think I put 1+ 1 together until I was talking with an MD about coding, he said he wouldn't do it. Then I remembered my mother had laid out a living will to give the doctors direction so I went home to pick that up, crying all the way. I think I had realized that this was not going to be the outcome I wanted . The living will said no extradordinary measures to be done to extend life . I agree wholly with that . In fact I have a document saying the same thing. But it still hurt to watch mum slip away. Though I am sure she knew I was in the room. Every evening before I left I said the commendation from the funeral service , putting her in Gods hands.
Would I consider suicide ot euthenasia ? No
I believe that only God can recall me . And I am fine with that imspite of what I have seen of people with dementia etc .
Blessings all
 

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Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
In wartime people are given cyanide pills to be used in case of emergency , to escape torture and so on .
Many wasting conditions , esp those associated with old age, don't seem much different from torture to me, apart from the fact that the living hell goes on much longer .

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This.

I speak as someone who will die of a predictable tormented end, if something nice and natural, such as a cardiac arrest, does not come along first and rescue me. If I feel the signs of a impending natural death, I do not intend to call 911 for emergency help.

Should I linger in my illness, I will continue to have cognitive decline to idiocity, be angry, abusive and mistreat my caregivers. I will slowly starve. I will have continuous physical tortuous pain. I will have increasing mental anguish to the point of insanity. I will burn 5,000 calories a day that cannot be replaced. I will fall and be incontinent. When i fall, my bones will break because they are already brittle.

This year, I am going to get my living will done. I am not sure a doctor will sign a 'no-code' yet, but like I said; I am not making any trips to hospital; I am having no preventative tests (such as a mammogram or colonoscopy). I suppose this could be called passive suicide.

I love my children, friends and grandchildren too much to put them through the agony of several years of caring for me while watching me suffer.
 

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Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 
My clients are largely what could be termed (and are, by some) "throw-away" people. Only a couple work at "real" jobs (and even those two jobs are part-time); they lack the capacity. Many need fairly substantial help to manage daily living. Several are quite difficult to deal with as personalities.

I fairly often listen to my staff complain in supervision how little point they can see either in these individuals' lives, or in the work they themselves do to assist our clients.

Much as I sympathize with the trials of loving and dealing with dementia and similar situations, and much as I can understand and perhaps even agree with having a right to end our own lives, I'd never want to see a policy about this, or even Jack Kavorkian-style access provided.

We're helpless when we arrive into our existences; we're often pretty helpless at the other end of the life process. What we need, I think, is a more accepting attitude toward these typical stages of life.

Humans who can't wipe their own arses, for whom getting to the corner drugstore is a federal project or even impossible, who are nasty to those who love them (or once did) are still human. Nobody else should be allowed to devalue that human life (as a species we've been known to slaughter whole populations we devalue), even when s/he devalues that life him/herself.
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
A lot of my friends mutter about a "plan B" after visiting a nursing home. For themselves. Dementia isn't the problem - having a working mind and being locked in one of those mindless places is what we want to avoid.

The problem, of course, is if they take you away to one of those places, they strip you of the tools to carry out your plan B.

Not that long ago old folks died at home, if you can't chew food anymore you gently starve (from what I've read it is gentle).

We are quickly moving toward a demographic of only 2 workers per retiree. If it takes two to care for one elderly, who will grow the food, repair the cars, generate the electricity? For the Boomers' old age there simply will not be the kind of care help that was available for our parents or even for today's elderly. 'Twil be interesting times.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Just a bit of context - very few elderly people come to the attention of the authorities as in need of care and the percentage remained about the same in UK over a century - something around 8%* so whilst it will affect some people it does not, by any means, affect all. Most elderly people die in their own home or during a short stay hospital admission.

Having said that it is still an awful condition whether the dementia is Alzheimer's related or multi-infarct or whatever. My sister in law had an hereditary condition which ended her life prematurely and it was terrible to see the decline in her and she said to me once the same as a retired marine engineer [with Alzheimer's] once said "It's terrible when you know what is happening to you." My heart goes out to Scarlet and all others in a similar situation

I'm another one who has a no resuscitation thing and I think that that is a reasonable thing but I think I draw the line at the deliberate ending of a life, whether my own or someone else's.

* * * *

*College is a Long Time Ago so I cannot give you a reference for this - I'm sure you can look it up.
 

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Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
It needs to be stated that dementia is not an inevitable consequence of aging. Yes, there are cognitive faculties that decline to some degree with age (short-term memory being the most obvious). But many people remain very sharp well past 80, even past 100, if they are lucky enough to live that long. Dementia is the result of disease processes, not just normal wear and tear.

That said, if I had a diagnosis of Alzheimers or some other inexorably progressive dementing condition, I'd make sure I checked out before it got too bad.
 

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Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
This is such a difficult topic and I think it can include physical disability as a result of old age as well as dementia. My father died 8 years ago aged 86 and we had to fight to get the doctors to allow his wishes for no treatment as they are of course trained to preserve life. But it was a life my father did not want and as an old soldier he faced the situation head on and had written an advanced directive several years earlier. Other people would have made a different choice.

Here in Kenya, amongst several people groups there is (within living memory)the tradition of the elderly voluntarily committing suicide when they judge themselves to be a burden on the rest of the community. And this is in a place where family is wider than just the nuclear understanding of many of us in other cultures.

The question for me is "What does love look like in this situation?" And I've learnt that sometimes, the answer is only clear on a moment by moment basis which is both a frustration and a comfort to me!

Having cared for my Dad in the two months it took him to die and remembering how exhausting it was (albeit a precious time too),my thoughts and prayers are with all of you who face the challenge of long-term care of a loved one.
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I am impressed with this thread and the contributions to understanding based on personal experience. My mum, at 95, is still living independently, still very much mentally capable and alert. She plays piano at the Monday women's meeting at her local church. They love her, because she transposes the hymns into keys more suitable for aging voices than the ones they have been written in. Her piano playing is a self-taught talent, no lessons ever.

But she does suffer from a variety of challenging physical problems which cause her a lot of pain and frustration. In view of that, her morale and positive outlook amaze me. The thing she fears most is loss of independence. She is not that bothered about "loss of my marbles" as she puts it. Has been doing what she calls her "brain gymnastics" (crosswords, logical puzzles, other kinds of memory exercises) since her early seventies to help keep her faculties in good shape. And she has always taken a keen, supportive, interest in the lives of family, friends, and the wider world. Loves her great grandchildren, thinks she's lucky to have lived long enough to get to know them. It's reciprocal; they think she's a lot of fun. They look forward to rides on her stair-lift! All of these things seem to work together for her.

There aren't general solutions here. Personally, I'm with those who would not want to go down the voluntary end, while still aware, road. But I much appreciate the dilemma as well as the burdens on relatives of those disabled by slow mental deterioration. Many friends and other family members have had most difficult experiences here. A lovely man at my local church is in the early stages of this, as is an ex-neighbour who I like very much. They both talk to me and others about what it feels like, as do their wives. Social support seems vital to me with these kinds of difficulties - people do better when they are not on their own, and are receiving practical and emotional help.

In which direction does compassion point? I suspect that varies a lot.

[ 11. January 2014, 07:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 

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Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :
 
Firstly, Dementia is not an inevitable part of ageing. Reaching 80 does not indicate you or I have dementia.

Secondly, the prospects are good. Read this for an encouraging article for you younger Shippies.

Thirdly. A long time ago I was in a very bad situation and deeply depressed. I decided I did not want to live beyond 65, and I had stashed away enough high-powered anagesics to make sure I could depart.

You know what? I got to 65 and while life was no rosier, in fact it was probably worse, I was determined to soldier on. I felt quite young, really.

Today, I am approaching my 80th birthday. I wonder if the forgetfulness, inability to find the right word, and those senior moments I get are the onset of Dementia. They could be. Who knows? But I still have the tablets.

Even so, I don't think I could put onto my daughter and the rest of the family the knowledge of my suicide. Bereavement in the ordinary way is hard to bear, but knowing it was a deliberate death makes it harder.

Nor could I ask anyone to kill me. Which is what the alternative is. Many of you are struggling with situations that I wonder if I could have done as well as you are, and for this I have a huge amount of admiration.

But could any of you knowingly kill a parent or other relative? Could you ask someone else to do it? Honestly?

Living wills may be the answer. I don't know. All I can say is there is no set age limit to our lives. I am very nearly 80 and feel quite hale and hearty, even if I am disabled. Don't write me off yet!
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
There is indeed *Always another day*, which does tend to make ideas about topping ourselves in old age somewhat nonsensical .

Unless we end up in a pit from which we absolutely, know for sure there is no escape then we are unlikely to down our hidden stash and say a fond farewell to to only life experience we know and , in all probability , are ever going to know.
 

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Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :
 
If you have reached 80 and are not showing any signs of dementia, you are unlikely to get it. In my experience as a lawyer advising on elderly care issues, most people who suffer from dementia are showing signs of it in their mid to late seventies. It is not inevitable that the elderly will suffer from dementia - most people don't. Nor is it a foregone conclusion that you will end your life in a care home - most elderly people die at home or in hospital after a short illness.

The arguments for and against euthanasia have been well rehearsed in many forums. A common argument in favour of euthanasia is "you wouldn't let you dog suffer like that". To which I reply that you are not going to inherit money and property from your dog, which would be much reduced in value if you allowed the dog to go on living with expensive veterinary care. You would not believe how many people I come across with elderly parents whose primary concern is not mum or dad's welfare but preserving their inheritance.
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
In his 80s, when my grandfather got indigestion-type chest pain, he did press-ups on the theory that if it was indigestion, press-ups would do no harm and if it was a heart-attack he was going to make damn sure it was a fatal one.

He drove himself to the hospital appointment at which he was told that 74 years of smoking had finally caught up with him and he had lung cancer. He shouldn't have been driving at that point, but he wasn't going to make any concessions to ill health (or indeed, the safety of other road users, or the peace of mind of his family!)

Having been told he had cancer he told the family to give him 24 hours alone. As we were sure he intended to kill himself, we didn't.

He went into hospital for radiotherapy. He had been in for a week when I visited and thought that he was dying. The hospital doctor said that he wasn't dying, but I phoned round the family anyway. My father came, but my aunt checked up with the hospital who told her that I was wrong, he wasn't dying, so she didn't come. He died later that day.

Afterwards, I wondered how the doctor could fail to realise that he was dying, and I concluded that my grandfather had always had a quality - an intensely "alive" quality, and what I had seen that day was that he had, in some way, switched off. The flame of his life was spluttering out; not something that registered in heart rate or blood pressure or clinical observation, but obvious to those who knew, loved, adored and were continually exasperated by him.

I hope I can similarly reach a point, preferably a bit older than 87, when I can think "it's been good, but I've had enough" and switch off.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Today, I am approaching my 80th birthday. I wonder if the forgetfulness, inability to find the right word, and those senior moments I get are the onset of Dementia.

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Nicodemia, I am about nine months older than you.

I heard a talk at our local Senior Center about how to keep your mind in good shape. The speaker said that senior moments have nothing to do with dementia. Most elderly people have them, and they do not progress to something worse.

They are a nuisance, though.

Moo
 

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Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :
 

quote:

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Most elderly people have them, and they do not progress to something worse.

They are a nuisance, though. [Frown]

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Moo, I find the worst thing is when I am talking to someone about perfectly ordinary things, and the name of something equally ordinary just won't come. I feel an utter fool!
 

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Posted by IconiumBound (# 754) on :
 
This thread has been one of the most honest I have read in a lot of years onboard. The personal reflections are very moving.

I, at 81, find myself in a unique position relatibe to the others. I and my wife also 81 are residents in a CCRC or Continuing Care Retirement Community. This is a facility that you can enter while you are still mobile and able to (mostly) take care of yourself. As you deteriorate you can be move to an in-house medical facility which does offer hospice care if requested.

The difference in my situation where I am still mobile and mostly in my right mind, is that I and other residents are desirous of providing the social support that we have established with other residents while living here. We find the management and medical staff opposing this and get the impression that there is a fear that there would be liability and HIPPA consequences to allow resident friends to visit those in the medical facility. Thus we wonder where is Mrs so & so? She isn't answering her phone? When asking the management we are told they can't disclose that information.

I also think part of this is the medical profession's fear of death; that is is a failure of their job.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:

I heard a talk at our local Senior Center about how to keep your mind in good shape. The speaker said that senior moments have nothing to do with dementia. Most elderly people have them, and they do not progress to something worse.

They are a nuisance, though.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've been there. My mum had one of the less publicised forms of dementia, and for the last year of her life I was her main carer, along with a magnificent friend of hers who did far more than anyone could ever have expected a friend to do.

There were many days when I so wanted to believe what we're often told - that it wasn't "her" any more. But it was. It was her, all jumbled up, and shut away inside that head, and weak and sometimes baby-like. But it was still her. It was like she'd been a big jigsaw puzzle, all finished and laid out, that someone had come along and knocked onto the floor. Random bits of person, but bits that sometimes reminded you of the whole picture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:

I would like to think I would do the same for my parents, if it were needed. I am not as strong as my cousin, but I would certainly try. But I would not want my d to do this for me; I would want her to live her own life, and look after her own family.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nicodemia:

quote:

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Most elderly people have them, and they do not progress to something worse.

They are a nuisance, though. [Frown]

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Moo, I find the worst thing is when I am talking to someone about perfectly ordinary things, and the name of something equally ordinary just won't come. I feel an utter fool!

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quote:

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Originally posted by IconiumBound:
This thread has been one of the most honest I have read in a lot of years onboard. The personal reflections are very moving.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nicodemia:
But could any of you knowingly kill a parent or other relative? Could you ask someone else to do it? Honestly?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

I remember being in my 30s and hearing Mom fret that losing (misplacing) her car keys meant she was going senile. "Hey Mom," said I, "I lose mine all the time,

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

I remember being in my 30s and hearing Mom fret that losing (misplacing) her car keys meant she was going senile. "Hey Mom," said I, "I lose mine all the time,

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Doctor Johnson: ‘There is a wicked inclination in most people to suppose an old man decayed in his intellects. If a young or middle-aged man, when leaving a company, does not recollect where he laid his hat, it is nothing; but if the same inattention is discovered in an old man, people will shrug up their shoulders, and say, “His memory is going.”’

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Indeed! I've had "senior moments" since childhood. Making fun of my forgetfulnes was a regular thing among some of my less kind schoolmates.
 

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Posted by Meg the Red (# 11838) on :
 
Having worked in a program for adults with dementia and social isolation, and in one focusing on elder abuse, I can say unequivocally that what terrifies me about getting older is the prospect of helplessness. The likelihood is high that I will have no family caregivers should I become unable to care for myself, and I've seen enough to know that not everyone is lucky enough to escape neglect and (frequently horrific) abuse, particularly if they have no advocate. And even devoted caregivers can get so exhausted and overwhelmed and resentful that they snap; I've witnessed it firsthand.

I hope and pray I take after my vibrant, self-sufficient 84-year-old mother; if I don't, I want the option of choosing when and how I leave this life. I might not exercise that option, but I want to have it.

prayers for everyone struggling with this
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I'm sorry to say that I'm nowhere near as altruistic in my reasons for wanting to escape dementia et al. I figure my son can take his turn at caregiving, just as I take mine. And if I lose my marbles, well, they were always in a holey container anyway. I'm pretty sure a number of them are under the sofa as I type.

No, I have a suckier reason for wanting to escape. It's pride. I hate the thought of being helpless, needing to be diapered, smelling bad (yech yecch yeccccch), and being incoherent where people can hear me. I don't want to be exposed for the dependent person that I really am at base, no matter how I camouflage it right now with shows of competence and self-sufficiency. In particular I don't want to lose my current status as adult self-supporting head of household and have to humbly accept dependence on people who used to depend on me.

But speaking as a Christian, I don't think I can get out of that. Humility and even humiliation were a big part of what Christ went through; and "where I am, there my servants must also be". I will definitely think it really, really, REALLY sucks if I have to get humbled that way; but bailing out of this life for the sake of pride is just not on.
 

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Posted by morningstar (# 15860) on :
 
Thank you for that LC.
I'd read through the whole thread, hoping that someone would say what you said in your post because the 'humility' and 'acceptance' point had been on my mind while reading, but probably wouldn't have come out quite as well as you put it if I'd tried to express it.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I have been totally helpless and dependent three times after major ops. The thing that kept me going was the knowledge that it was temporary.

All the people in Mum's home who can still speak strongly believe that this is a temporary situation and that they'll be home tomorrow.

I always take my labrador, Tatze, when I visit Mum and she does the rounds of the people there for cuddles and pets. She is much loved there. Those who had dogs in the past say "my dog is called ** and I'll see her tomorrow/when I get home." These were pets from years ago, of course.

This gives me some hope - so long as we live on the same planet and agree with them, they seem very content. I think the worst time by far is after diagnosis but before arriving on planet X3Z9.
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I think the worst time by far is after diagnosis but before arriving on planet X3Z9.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
All the people in Mum's home who can still speak strongly believe that this is a temporary situation and that they'll be home tomorrow.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
All the people in Mum's home who can still speak strongly believe that this is a temporary situation and that they'll be home tomorrow.

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That's why it's so hard when your kids sell your house. Takes away the hope of going back home.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tortuf:

Yes, there are some who have Dementia that makes them paranoid and violent. I think that speaks to how they were before Dementia. You do not change your basic personality with Dementia. You just let the loose screws blossom.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
Yes, there are some who have Dementia that makes them paranoid and violent. I think that speaks to how they were before Dementia. You do not change your basic personality with Dementia. You just let the loose screws blossom.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:
I am not a medic but isn't it more accurate to say that "you do not change your basic personality with Alzheimer's, which is the most common form of dementia, but there are other forms"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Firenze:
In so many ways, old age is the mirror of childhood. You revert to the totally egocentric baby - but without the big-eyed charm to carry it off. Even in the benign version, you revert to sleeping much of the time.

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And without the hope of a steady growth to independence. It's a slide backwards into babyhood. My Mum is now in nappies, eating pureed food and sleeping 90% of the time. So about 3 months old. I expect the next stage will be curled up and sleeping, taking only liquids.

My brother's partner's daughter was born with Rett syndrome and is now 30 years old. She has never moved or spoken, she's often uncomfortable, her only pleasure is looking at birds on the bird table.

I often feel bad when I am upset over Mum. Mum has had a long, happy, productive life. SIL's daughter never will .
 

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Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Wow, what a moving thread. Thank you to everyone for their honesty and for everyone who has been affected by this in the past, is affected by this now, or who may be in the future.
 

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Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
I think it strips away a person’s ability to cope with expected social niceties and leaves the more unpleasant aspects of our characters exposed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
I think it strips away a person’s ability to cope with expected social niceties and leaves the more unpleasant aspects of our characters exposed.

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I think a lot depends, too, on how well a person was able to naturally understand and fit in with social norms and niceties to begin with. I'm not sure it's always necessarily about goodness or badness of character. For some people, fitting in with the world and being likeable comes naturally. For others, it is always a huge effort, because of the way their brain works, so old age (not necessariy even dementia) is going to make it a lot harder to make that effort. What lies underneath the effort, when the effort can no longer be applied, is not necessarily an unpleasant character, but often simply a person with a brain which finds the world confusing and frightening.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
My Mum is now in nappies, eating pureed food and sleeping 90% of the time. So about 3 months old.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
Yes, there are some who have Dementia that makes them paranoid and violent. I think that speaks to how they were before Dementia. You do not change your basic personality with Dementia. You just let the loose screws blossom.

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Great post. While I'm sure this is true, I think it can be a bit misleading though. One of the most peace-causing mild-mannered men I have ever known apparently became quite violent with Alzheimers. I'm sure it was a facet of his personality, but if so that only says what an incredibly restrained person he was!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The theory that during dementia the “real” person emerges is highly questionable.

I have heard of men who had behaved with appropriate propriety all their lives attempting to grope nurses, and previously devout Christians coming out with blatant blasphemies.

Surely the “real” person is the one whom the person chooses to be when is possession of their faculties.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The theory that during dementia the “real” person emerges is highly questionable.

I have heard of men who had behaved with appropriate proprietary all their lives attempting to grope nurses, and previously devout Christians coming out with blatant blasphemies.

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quote:

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It could be a Jekyll and Hyde thing . Hyde is hidden, tamed and suppressed .

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