Thread: Love what you do, do what you love..? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on :
 
I have been reading this article by Miya Tokumitsu on the groovy meme that one should “Do what you love. Love what you do.”

Tokumitsu says:

quote:
“Do what you love” disguises the fact that being able to choose a career primarily for personal reward is an unmerited privilege, a sign of that person’s socioeconomic class. Even if a self-employed graphic designer had parents who could pay for art school and cosign a lease for a slick Brooklyn apartment, she can self-righteously bestow DWYL as career advice to those covetous of her success.
He/she argues that the people who loudly make a point of saying that they're happy to choose a career that makes them happy/fulfilled are the very same people who unthinkingly force others into unthinking roles in order to support their choice.

This can be perhaps set against the work of Ken Robinson, whose whose whole schtick is that one can only be fulfilled (read, perhaps unkindly, "a fully formed, full human being") if one find the thing in life that makes one wildly excited.

But who in their right mind would be wildly excited about working bin lorries or scraping shit in a sewage works? In a perfect world where everyone was fulfilled, would these things ever actually get done?

Tokumitsu also says:

quote:
Nothing makes exploitation go down easier than convincing workers that they are doing what they love.
Isn't that also true? By convincing workers that they are 'doing it for the love of it', this can be weighed positively against them a) having proper wages b) having a proper family life c) whatever else.

I think there is a convincing argument here about the exploitation implicit in academia - I read the other day of a full tenured professor of an area of science who is unfulfilled and feels a fraud, even with all his obvious success. The obvious question unsaid is - if this guy is a failure, what are the rest of us supposed to feel about ourselves?!?

I think there is a lot to be said about this. What do you think? Does the mantra breed selfishness and exploitation?
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I think the expectation of having a job that provides fulfilment is a peculiarly gen-Y thing, at least among those who go on to further education, whereas older cohorts tend to see a job as something you have to do earn a living, in which any enjoyment is an added bonus.

On the other hand, I think that loving God with all one's heart, soul and strength is somehow connected with finding fulfilment even in bin collecting. I recall this quote from The Practice of the Presence of God:

quote:
I turn my little omelet in the pan for the love of God. When it is finished, if I have nothing to do, I prostrate myself on the ground and worship my God, who gave me this grace to make it, after which I arise happier than a king. When I can do nothing else, it is enough to have picked up a straw for the love of God
and have in mind this little line from Zecharaiah 14:20-21:

quote:
On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty
I'm not quite sure how that works and don't make any claim to implementing it particularly well, but I think there's something in there.
 
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on :
 
Well I don't think that is really true (this idea of it being a recent Gen-Y thing), or at least not in academia. I think academia is the perfect encapsulation of self-made careers, and has been for a long time. In fact, I think in many spheres it was actually easier to become something that you want to become in the past than it is today*.

But I think you are right about it being possible to find fulfilment in the apparently mundane. I suppose that is the difference between choosing to do something undesirable and finding that there is a way to do it and find fulfilment within it.

*but then this was still strongly related to your personal situation. Those born to mining parents in a mining town for a long time were unlikely to be anything other than a miner.
 
Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
On the other hand, I think that loving God with all one's heart, soul and strength is somehow connected with finding fulfilment even in bin collecting.
Not necessarily, I spent many months working in the Sheffield sewer system, underground shovelling fatbergs and dead dogs out of the pipes. It was probably the best job I ever had, well paid, fantastic cameraderie, never know what you are going to find from one day to the next. On the other hand I have worked in supposedly fulfilling careers which have been rendered hellish by obsessive competition, backstabbing colleagues and never quite having enough to be satisfied. Other people can make or break a job far more easily than God.

Mind you right now I would settle for any kind of job...
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
"Do what you love" is the privilege of those who happen to love doing something that someone else is willing to pay good money for. Most of us are not so lucky, and are stuck with doing what we can.

The same could be said for "follow your dreams".
 
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
"Do what you love" is the privilege of those who happen to love doing something that someone else is willing to pay good money for. Most of us are not so lucky, and are stuck with doing what we can.

The same could be said for "follow your dreams".
I guess some might argue that if you're not doing something you like (and/or that is your dream), you should stop and keep looking until you do.

I'm guessing you don't hold a lot of truck with that idea either!
 
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on :
 
Here is another thought, for the sake of argument.

One might believe that one is in a very unusual situation on a world/national/family scale and one might also believe that one is only in that position due to others - and a good deal of randomness.

Even given those qualifiers, is it not possible to think that you should be looking to be doing something that provides you with most mental balance and/or fulfilment if you possibly can?

What benefit is there to all those other people, and all those who do not have the opportunity to choose and to all those other people who are supporting your lifestyle (who may or may not be doing that anyway, even if you are unfulfilled and miserable) to you being miserable?

Maybe you owe it to them to make the best possible choices and to be as fulfilled as you possibly can, given that you are in that position.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I guess some might argue that if you're not doing something you like (and/or that is your dream), you should stop and keep looking until you do.
But as has been pointed out, this is a luxury many people cannot afford.

Another problem is that fulfilment cannot be achieved simply by a change of scenery. I've lived for most of my life in France, and over that time I've seen a steady stream of English people arrive full of expectations that living and working here will be immensely fulfilling, only to slink away a few years later disappointed.

Of course there are horrible jobs (or horrible colleagues), but overall I think that finding at least a minimum of fulfilment in one's current circumstances is a key to finding it (perhaps more so) elsewhere (another Biblical idea: contentment!).
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Even given those qualifiers, is it not possible to think that you should be looking to be doing something that provides you with most mental balance and/or fulfilment if you possibly can?
For sure, but that's a very different thing indeed.

"Do what you love" implies that even if you had absolutely no need for any form of monetary compensation you would still choose to do that thing. And for many people that is not true of any job, no matter how much mental balance or fulfilment it provides. Even on my best days at the office I would still rather be lounging by the pool or playing a round of golf. Or posting on Ship of Fools - which I generally do from work anyway, so that's a good thing [Smile] ...
 
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
The golden handcuffs tighten when others are dependent upon our income. When it makes a difference to others, we're less likely to apply for the job we'd really love to do if it pays less - and it often does. But if we love what we do, aren't we more likely to put our all into it so more likely to progress 'up the ladder', with the bonus of more money?
 
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :
 
I blame Oprah. Seriously. This is a big thing for her - I get that she's spent much of her life doing what she loves, and that's great. However, I once had a look at the Oprah forums (this was many years ago now) and found it incredibly sad because there was a whole forum dedicated to "living your passion" (I think that's the term they used) and were so many people desperately trying to find a way to make a viable living out of their cherished hobbies, without sense or reason. The sense that they were all entitled to payment for things that they did for fun was not doing these people any favours. If you can forge out a career doing something you love - marvellous. However:

- There's no shame in having a job that is just a job that pays the bills. You should do it to the best of your ability but you don't have to love it.
- Your life can go to hell while you're waiting for people to come along who'll pay you to do the thing you love. I've seen it happen.
- If you never have the job of your dreams you can still have a great life.
- Even if you do manage to get a living doing something you enjoy, there will be bits of the job that aren't fun. You'll still have to sort out your tax returns, deal with difficult people, and do boring stuff. No job is 100% fun, 100% of the time.
 
Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The golden handcuffs tighten when others are dependent upon our income. When it makes a difference to others, we're less likely to apply for the job we'd really love to do if it pays less - and it often does. But if we love what we do, aren't we more likely to put our all into it so more likely to progress 'up the ladder', with the bonus of more money?
I'm with Marvin, in the sense that you are lucky if you get to earn good money doing what you love. I was transfixed by the first computer I got access too a long time ago, and nowadays I make good money working in programming.

A lot of people said I would only make more money by moving up the ladder, but in tech (as in many other areas) moving up means stopping doing what you love and managing other people doing it instead. They were wrong, and nowadays I make very good money (as far as I'm concerned anyway), albeit in a niche area.

If I didn't have to work, then all my side projects that I'd like to do might get a look in, so I'd still be doing this even if I didn't need the money.

Fortunate indeed I suppose.
 
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :
 
Thinking about it, there are lots of things I love doing: singing, knitting, reading... and I really don't want to do any of the jobs that involve doing those things because part of their value to me is that they aren't work. I actually quit one choir largely *because* it was so intense a commitment in terms of time and energy that it felt like a job rather than a hobby. But that's part of the problem with this thinking: many people who want to "live their passion" want to be paid for their hobby, rather than doing an actual job that involves the skills they've gained from their hobby.

[ 14. January 2014, 11:26: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I also have a job doing what I love, and I realize that this is a privileged position. I would still be doing it (or something similar) if my financial situation were such that I wouldn't need a salary (hah! that will be the day...)

I'm not sure if my situation can be described as 'earning good money'. I get by and I'm not complaining, but I could have earned much more if I did something else. It is my choice however to do thing I love.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:

But who in their right mind would be wildly excited about working bin lorries ...
I don't know. I noted that both our binmen are women and found myself thinking "I could do that". I am unaffected by smell, so plenty of exercise, no paperwork ... no stress ...

What I couldn't stand would be the poor wages. When I was a girl I dearly wanted to be a dog trainer. Mum said "No, you'll never earn enough to buy a house training dogs." She was right.

So I became a teacher, which I have loved. But now that I'm semi retired I'm signing up to be a volunteer puppy walker for Guide Dogs. I've never been so excited. Suddenly I'm about to do what I wanted to all along!
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Well, let me put my hand up as someone who is fundamentally VERY happy with the job that they have.

And I just had to think about that very issue and fight for my job in competition with other people who also wanted to keep the same job. But I've known it was going to be good from the first couple of days. Seriously.

Yes, it pays well. No, I don't think the amount of pay has much to do with me being happy about the job, because when I started it it paid exactly the same as the last 2 jobs I had had. They were all in the same organisation at the same level.

What makes me love my job boils down to the following:

1. A belief that the job aligns with my natural talents and interests.

2. A belief that the job matters.

In other words, it's "that job needs to be done, and I want to be the person who does it".

I have no problem at all with the proposition that someone might love cleaning sewers or whatever, because we all have different drivers and interests and passions. One of the key reasons I ended up where I am now is that I thought about those questions, especially the 'drivers' one.

And I mostly thought about it in the context of jobs that I hated or couldn't handle, and reasoned my way to finding jobs that were the opposite. Over time I learnt how I reacted to certain kinds of situations.

And I know full well that not everyone would want to do my job. It's a legal job, and even amongst lawyers I know people who shudder at the thought of doing what I do. Heck, one of my friends I'd known through school, university and later again in the workplace just looked at me with this puzzled expression and said "why would you want to do that?"

None of this means I enjoy my job each and every single day. Today it exhausted me. It was tough. But I still had a belief about why I was doing it, and why I wanted to do it, and why I would be back the next day intent on tackling the next bit of the task I'm currently working on.

I will admit to being fortunate in somehow managing to convince most people to hire me for the jobs that I've applied for. I have the ability to impress other people. But I still tend to suspect that you'll actually come across as more suitable for a job if you believe that you're suitable for the job, and that the job suits you. Your desire for it is likely to come through.
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Mum said "No, you'll never earn enough to buy a house training dogs." She was right.

So I became a teacher,
You switched training dogs for training kids? That makes sense. I bet you always got them to sit in the classroom [Big Grin]
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
The same could be said for "follow your dreams".
I guess some might argue that if you're not doing something you like (and/or that is your dream), you should stop and keep looking until you do.
If you are on low pay, with only one income (plus the pittance the government pays out in benefits) you do not have enough money to look for another job, especially if your employer is one of those who will discipline anyone who will take time off, even for a job interview. You are stuck, at least until the kids leave school.

Being able to take time off for job interviews is only for those whose employer does not see employees looking for another job as disloyalty.

[sorted quotes]

[ 14. January 2014, 12:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Signaller (# 17495) on :
 
I've thought about this a lot. I had the great good fortune to start off with a childhood enthusiasm, which became a hobby, and then, more or less by chance, took me into a very well-paid and secure job doing something which I think is important and worthwhile, with supportive, professional colleagues.

I don't know what I did to deserve all this. It leaves me wondering what to advise the next generation. The cynic in me says to tell them to make sure they are good at something that no-one else wants to do, so they can expect to earn good money (so don't become a librarian). The other person says that more than ever, the world needs people who can help others make sense of mountains of information (so become a librarian).

Whatever you choose to do, or are forced to do by circumstances, be good at it. If you aren't, life will not be tolerable, never mind enjoyable. And you won't get promoted [Biased]

I married a librarian, BTW, so I see the world through her eyes as well, and it's not pretty.
 
Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :
 
I really don't know anything that I "love" that could be anything like a career. art, I guess... but even there I can't imagine "having" to produce, and in particular having to re-produce anything on a set schedule. I enjoy the challenge of figuring out how to do something but not the routine of doing it day in and day out (even in a creative setting). I'm a "project" person not a routine person. and most jobs have at least some element of routine in them.

I do work in a field that I love, although not necessarily the job specifically. I knew I wanted to be working on environmental issues since I was a child. At the time there was no specific profession called "environmental scientist" or "environmetnal biologist" or any of the dozen or so other environmetnal fields that exist now. And I certainly didn't imagine myself sitting at a desk writing regulations (or guidance on existing regulations). I had an image of something more like a park ranger, or perhaps field researcher. well, I did field research in grad school, and yes, I did love it overall (although even then.. great when the weather is nice. but sitting in a boat on the Potomac in the icy rain wet to my elbows taking water samples is not my idea of a fun time).

I enjoy the work I do with my scouts... but even there there are aspects to the "job" (volunteer) that I detest, but that are an essential part of the whole. and that's a job I literally do even though they don't pay me (it's been nearly a full time second job at times, running a chapter).

Bottom line, I guess, is that there really is no such thing (for me) as a job that I completely love. there are perhaps jobs (including the one I have) where I love some aspects of it, and hate others.
 
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
I don't think anyone completely loves anything. I am definitely privileged that I am doing what I love right now, but of course that doesn't mean I love every aspect of it. Heck, I love my husband, but that doesn't mean I think he's perfect or expect him to have that sort of delusion about me either.

I think that often as others have implied loving one's job also involves choosing to be happy. But clearly there are many jobs that are inherently unlovable--for instance jobs with abusive bosses--and many jobs that only a certain kind of person could love.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Several comments. It is not a Gen-X, Y or Z thing. We heard the same stuff in the late 60s and into the 70s. It is a post-WW2 thing for sure.

The idea that work will ultimately be the fulfilment is normally burst by the early to mid 20s. It has been for everyone of my aquaintaince, which contains people born in my cohort, which is baby boom, and everyone forward from there, roughly those born 1945 and later. Few find work so wonderful that this is what they have chatted about in their deathbeds. Nope, they all have talked about family, friends and social aspects of lie.

Nope, work is like going into the forest and killing a beast or gathering roots and berries, hauling it back to the campfire. The real fulfilment starts, which is sitting around the fire, singing songs and telling stories - and its modern equivalent, which of course is writing and discussing stuff on these SOF forums.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
My son is a mad keen environmentalist who loves to climb. So he imagined himself swinging through the rainforest and such. So he got his first and Masters degrees in ecology. Then he started looking for jobs - these all involved imputing data for those who were swinging through the forests. Of course, he had to start at the bottom and 'do his time' before he progressed to the exciting stuff!

He couldn't stand it, he's an active person, can't sit still for a minute.

So he changed tack completely and is now training to be a nurse.

There are lots of jobs which are very mundane at the start - but improve as you climb the ladder. Some jobs you are 'in at the deep end' from day one (teacher, nurse, paramedic, engineer, pilot ... ) So, if I'd have thought it through, I'd have advised him to go for a job which was more active and hands on from the start.

So he's 27 now and still in training (fortunately being paid as trainee nurses are paid in Germany, like they used to be here).
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Boogie: these all involved imputing data for those who were swinging through the forests.
That would be me [Biased] I'll be swinging through the forest for the next four days again.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Boogie: these all involved imputing data for those who were swinging through the forests.
That would be me [Biased] I'll be swinging through the forest for the next four days again.
He would be 100% jealous!!

[Smile]
 
Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :
 
I think I prefer the saying "Bloom where you are planted."
 
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I think I prefer the saying "Bloom where you are planted."
Assuming you've got appropriate growing conditions...
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
I think some jobs are made extra-unpleasant because of the lack of respect shown to those who do them. I am thinking of people who clean public toilets or collect trash.

No one wants to live in a society where these jobs are not done, and it makes no sense to look down on the people who do them. Everyone else should be grateful to them.

Moo
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
The old Human Resource joke in largeish organisations where there might be a variety of jobs to be done and a restricted choice available for who should do them.

"There is no tighter fit than a square peg hammered securely into a round hole".

Another version of that is the recruitment agency insider's cynicism that in arranging placements, sometimes it is necessary for a desperate square peg to learn how to bluff the selection process to get that job they needed; whether it was a round hole or not.

A lot of times these days, the reality is that what folks coming into the job market really want is just a start. Any start.

On of the jobs I've done in my life is the evaluation of jobs others have designed. That can teach you a lot about the completely unreasonably expectations of some managers about what makes a decent job. Sometimes it can take a couple of goes for the penny to drop. That job, as designed, is fundamentally undoable. It's such a random collection of disparate duties and responsibilities that the odds of it being done well are vanishingly small.

Job satisfaction is a strange term. Mostly the choices folks face in practice involve learning to tolerate the unsatisfactory factors of their jobs. Get round things.

IME, the best job experience of all is to be a part of a good team that works well together and is mutually supportive. Then it doesn't matter so much if some of the duties and responsibilities are imperfectly fitted, the skill requirements are not thought through, training needs get ignored or pushed on the back burner. People work around that. Stuff gets shared, passed around, there's mutual helping out, time to learn, folks to learn from. With a good team, adaptation, including adaptation to difficult challenges, is a heck of a lot easier. Even fulfilling.

The worst experience is to be in a team which is full of competitive aggrandisement, back-stabbing, and stealing kudos. "Divide and rule", or "management by fear" styles are notorious for fostering that kind of work environment. They only work at all because of rapid turn over and unfair delegation of blame.

This is of course only a rough sketch, focusing on the best and the worst. Most organisations are "in between" on all of that. But it gives you some ideas of how to survive, how to evaluate your chances, what risks there may be to your sanity etc.

In the work place, if you love what you do, you're lucky. Actually, if you hate it 50% of the time or less, you're probably luckier than most. But if you like the people you work for and with, find them good team players, make the very most of that. And learn how to foster it.

[ 14. January 2014, 22:03: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
I have a job I love and it is because I fought tooth and nail and sacrificed for it since I knew I could never be happy doing anything else.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I think some jobs are made extra-unpleasant because of the lack of respect shown to those who do them. I am thinking of people who clean public toilets or collect trash.

No one wants to live in a society where these jobs are not done, and it makes no sense to look down on the people who do them. Everyone else should be grateful to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
 This is true, but it is also true that people in good jobs are more likely to be hard-working and clever than those in lower-paying jobs. Also, I think that skill is a more important criterion than cleverness. ...

However, one can learn to clean a toilet in far less time than one can learn to be a banker.
Bring on the respect and gratitude.
 
Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 
Well, this is a topic I think about a lot trying to guide two young men out of high school and into their real lives. I think there are a lot of factors.

I'm a teacher and I love what I do. Somedays, I seriously love it. Other days, I could quit. I am somewhat privileged to be doing what I love because I was able to go to college. But, I also went through the steps I needed to do what I love. There is more motivation to find a job that you love, which is why people say this. It's easier to motivate a young person, for example, to get a job in graphic design if they like art than to go fill out applications at McDonald's.

I tell my younger son, 19, to study in college what he loves, not what he thinks he should study (he briefly left a film major to pursue an economics major because he thought economics had better job opportunities) and worry about jobs later. Worry about learning and his gpa now. Most definitely a privileged position for him, which is why I tell him don't squander it.

My older son, who is very creative and artistic, is struggling. It seems that he may be thinking what one poster says, that he wants to keep what he loves as recreation and just work a job. He goes to school part time, and struggles, and works part time. And he loves his pizza delivery job. Loves it. I don't know where he will end up. He is also privileged to have a choice.

I don't think it's true at all that those that are privileged to work or not work in jobs that they love, or in effect have a choice, are somehow harming a different set of people who are not so privileged. I feel like I help people in my job and I could not do any other job. I tell my boys, that no matter what they choose to do with their lives, they should a. Have a job that they don't hate. B. make a livable wage. (not pizza delivering) and c. Do something with their lives that somehow gives to people. That doesn't have to be part of their paying job. But I've tried to instill the idea that they should act in manners that attempt to make the world better. Though, I also tell them that maybe their job right now is to figure out their own lives and how the world works before they can help anyone.

I'm also working on telling them not to listen to me, but to listen to themselves. That's a tough one for me.
 
Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I think some jobs are made extra-unpleasant because of the lack of respect shown to those who do them. I am thinking of people who clean public toilets or collect trash.

No one wants to live in a society where these jobs are not done, and it makes no sense to look down on the people who do them. Everyone else should be grateful to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
 This is true, but it is also true that people in good jobs are more likely to be hard-working and clever than those in lower-paying jobs. Also, I think that skill is a more important criterion than cleverness. ...

However, one can learn to clean a toilet in far less time than one can learn to be a banker.
Bring on the respect and gratitude.
And so not true. I bet I would be the worst maid ever, and probably an ok banker.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Previous church pastor in my local congo always did menial jobs. He's certainly cleaned a lot of loos; was a regular member of the stewards tidy-up team after morning services.

Never worried about getting his hands dirty. Good preacher, good leader, good example in many ways.

Looks like his successor wears the same moccasins. I'm glad to say.

On the other side, my wife reckons, correctly, that I'm lousy at such activities. So busy seeing into things that I can't see things. Good insight, detailed observation not so much.

Not about fastidiousness in my case; more yer basic incompetence. But I do try. If I do this stuff very slowly, I reach passable standards. Could never have earned a living that way.

We're all different; that's part of the fascination about gifts and talents and what you can enjoy doing well.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Well, this is a topic I think about a lot trying to guide two young men out of high school and into their real lives. I think there are a lot of factors.

I'm a teacher and I love what I do. Somedays, I seriously love it. Other days, I could quit. I am somewhat privileged to be doing what I love because I was able to go to college. But, I also went through the steps I needed to do what I love. There is more motivation to find a job that you love, which is why people say this. It's easier to motivate a young person, for example, to get a job in graphic design if they like art than to go fill out applications at McDonald's.

I tell my younger son, 19, to study in college what he loves, not what he thinks he should study (he briefly left a film major to pursue an economics major because he thought economics had better job opportunities) and worry about jobs later. Worry about learning and his gpa now. Most definitely a privileged position for him, which is why I tell him don't squander it.

My older son, who is very creative and artistic, is struggling. It seems that he may be thinking what one poster says, that he wants to keep what he loves as recreation and just work a job. He goes to school part time, and struggles, and works part time. And he loves his pizza delivery job. Loves it. I don't know where he will end up. He is also privileged to have a choice.

I don't think it's true at all that those that are privileged to work or not work in jobs that they love, or in effect have a choice, are somehow harming a different set of people who are not so privileged. I feel like I help people in my job and I could not do any other job. I tell my boys, that no matter what they choose to do with their lives, they should a. Have a job that they don't hate. B. make a livable wage. (not pizza delivering) and c. Do something with their lives that somehow gives to people. That doesn't have to be part of their paying job. But I've tried to instill the idea that they should act in manners that attempt to make the world better. Though, I also tell them that maybe their job right now is to figure out their own lives and how the world works before they can help anyone.

I'm also working on telling them not to listen to me, but to listen to themselves. That's a tough one for me.
[Overused]

Great stuff.

I especially like what you said about not studying something that your son thinks he 'should' study. Because in a lot of ways that's just subject matter, and mostly it's the skills you learn that are useful.

Certainly, some jobs require formal qualifications that are dependent on knowledge, but knowledge is relatively easy to pick up if one of the skills you've learnt is how to pick up knowledge.

One REALLY great skill to gain is the ability to see how your skills can be transferred to other subjects. Some years ago, I was on an interview panel for some administrative assistant/office jobs, relatively low on the scale and arguably a good way to enter the organisation/the public service. Probably the best candidate we got was a guy who had never done that kind of work before. He'd been a baker I think, and at the time he was working for the company that watered all of our office plants.

He was absolutely BRILLIANT at talking about his planning skills, his organisational skills, his capacity to interact with customers and managers - all that kind of stuff that was transferable and almost nothing to do with the fact that he knew how to bake bread or not kill plants. He 100% made us believe that he could do an office admin job when he had no prior experience and working in an office admin job.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I learned the hard way that that not everybody can do everything well. And sometimes the system just isn't fair. So I stopped investing so much emotion in it. And life got much better.

I needed a job a few years ago; I was at the end of my Employment Insurance. I had an interview; I thought it went well. They said I was nice, they wanted to hire me, but their customers just cancelled their orders because they lost their bank loans, so I went home with nothing. They had the decency to look ashamed and gave me gas money. That was October 2008.

I'm in the last stages of a job hunt; something that I find engaging and think I can do well, and will provide for me. But it's not my entire being.

I love politics, I do political organizing now. Greatest thing about it is they always want more and always have work. It keeps me from crawling the walls. That's my passion and my hobby, but it's not a job.
 
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

I especially like what you said about not studying something that your son thinks he 'should' study. Because in a lot of ways that's just subject matter, and mostly it's the skills you learn that are useful.
A friend's son asked me about whether he should study what his parents thought was sensible or what he wanted to do. As a ex-lecturer I'm aware of how high drop-out rates are at many UK universities so, risking my friends' wrath, I recommended he do something that would keep him interested for three years.

Since he had been brought up about as far from the sea as you can get in Britain, Marine Biology seemed an odd choice but like orfeo I thought the skills would be the important thing. He got his degree and spent the next five years doing underwater eco-surveys in the Maldives. His friends who's settled for Business Studies, IT or whatever, gritted their teeth and mostly thought it was a one-off bit of luck. Then the job ended and he was head-hunted for an academic project on manta rays off the coast of Mexico, then .... but, for the sanity of those of us in grey rain soaked Britain, I won't go on.

Even if he eventually comes back to his parents cold wet farm he will have great memories. I know we can't all live our dreams, but if it's a possibility, to give up on it without trying is very sad.

[can't tell 'of' from 'off']

[ 15. January 2014, 12:13: Message edited by: que sais-je ]
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
His friends who's settled for Business Studies, IT or whatever, gritted their teeth and mostly thought it was a one-off bit of luck.
Well sure, if you've got no ties to the place where you live then being able to jet off around the world doing such things would be a great job. Some of us would rather be able to see our friends and family on a regular basis.

Trouble is, we still need to earn money. So we settle for Business, IT or whatever...
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

One REALLY great skill to gain is the ability to see how your skills can be transferred to other subjects.
Ain't that the truth. If you manage to get in front of an interview board, you're quite likely to find folks who understand transferable skills. But that happens only if you don't get rejected by some moronic first-stage sifting system which gives point scores to what can be seen, not inferred.

Potentially wonderful career shifts have fallen at this first fence. CV writing is an art in this respect. Accentuate the positive?

[ 15. January 2014, 15:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on :
 
I was going to say before that there is a contradiction, given that most jobs want people to say in an interview that the job means more to them than just the money.

I'm not very good at lying. Which probably explains why I'm not good in most formal interview situations.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
It's also worth noting that if you make what was your enjoyable hobby into your job, there is a risk of ruining the enjoyment of your hobby.

No job seems to be secure for life these days, so flexibility is probably the best skill to nurture.
 
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
Ah yes, I'd love to do a job I really cared about, but doing the jobs has long since beaten that out of me, especially as I am now working for the High Twat Archtwat of Twattery. Add to that the apparent inability to escape without ending up jobless, or broke, or both, and anyone being smug to me about doing what you love is likely to get a piece of my mind. If I wanted to live the dream, I'd need a full time job to pay for it. Ah well, only thirty or so years until I can retire on what pittance the politicians have left me.

AG
 
Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It's also worth noting that if you make what was your enjoyable hobby into your job, there is a risk of ruining the enjoyment of your hobby.
-- precisely. Because as a hobbyist, you are free to be creative and cultivate the Big Picture.

As a "Professional", you will inevitably run into the mediocre nitpickers, bean-counters, administrators and other mindless but very serious bores that make up the very mediocre majority of any pursuit, and, unfortunately, these are the ones who tend to run the show.

"Professional" nowadays mostly means: humour, playfulness and creativity safely removed.
 
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well sure, if you've got no ties to the place where you live then being able to jet off around the world doing such things would be a great job. Some of us would rather be able to see our friends and family on a regular basis.
Applying a bit of Hobbesian reductionism, you are therefore doing what you love most - being around with your friends and family. My young friend did what he loved, you're doing the same. Now you seem to want it all - the thing you say you want most and a wonderful job.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It's also worth noting that if you make what was your enjoyable hobby into your job, there is a risk of ruining the enjoyment of your hobby.
-- precisely. Because as a hobbyist, you are free to be creative and cultivate the Big Picture.

As a "Professional", you will inevitably run into the mediocre nitpickers, bean-counters, administrators and other mindless but very serious bores that make up the very mediocre majority of any pursuit, and, unfortunately, these are the ones who tend to run the show.

"Professional" nowadays mostly means: humour, playfulness and creativity safely removed.
Certainly there is a major difference between a hobby and a job, in that a job is not just about pleasing yourself.

The creativity can arguably come from finding ways to please yourself at the same time as pleasing others. I've just worked on a particular provision that I personally found stupid and pointless, but hey, I found a way to craft its stupidity quite well and not make its pointlessness obvious. I'm taking that as a win.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I am finding my hobby harder than my job!

I have always enjoyed painting but my drawing skills let me down. So, now that I'm semi retired I have begun a drawing course. I find myself procrastinating like mad. The house has never been tidier!

I'm definitely much more productive in a work environment. No opportunity for procrastination.
 
Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
He/she argues that the people who loudly make a point of saying that they're happy to choose a career that makes them happy/fulfilled are the very same people who unthinkingly force others into unthinking roles in order to support their choice.
This reminds me of my favourite passage from Smallcreep's Day:
quote:
You keep a dustbin and then condemn a man to whom you are a complete stranger to spend his days coping with your dirt and refuse. Goodness knows he hates it, who wouldn't, so you have to say to him, as they do in jails, that if he doesn't do as you wish you will give him nothing but bread and water... But somebody must empty your dustbin Mr Smallcreep. If not him then someone else, or no doubt there would be a great commotion with you at its centre.... Buy and manufactured item and you condemn... a man to spend his waking hours in a factory. All these people in their turn will condemn you to waste your life perhaps in some office or at some other machine, doing for them what you have prevented them from doing for themselves.
The author of this book did follow his dream of making a living from what he loved - which happened to be craft pottery. But he suffered quite significant financial hardship and insecurity as a result.
 
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :
 
So far about 20% of posters have said they are doing something they love/find fulfilling. Of course lots haven't mentioned their own circumstances and people may be less inclined to say they aren't living the life they dream of.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
Applying a bit of Hobbesian reductionism, you are therefore doing what you love most - being around with your friends and family.
Aside from the part where for five days out of every seven I have to spend virtually every sunlit hour stuck in an office, you're right.
 
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Aside from the part where for five days out of every seven I have to spend virtually every sunlit hour stuck in an office, you're right.
Friends told us their exciting plans for retirement - only six months off. Three months later the husband died.

We were shocked. We thought about it and decided what we wanted was to be together more. So we sold our house and got a smaller one in a much cheaper part of town. Our income went down to 1/4 of what it had been. We searched out all the free things you could do, used some of the profits from the house to get a caravan so we could still go away sometimes, got an allotment, went for lots of walks, visited museums, attended free lectures. Learned lots, go fitter, made new friends. Had new, very different and much younger, neighbours who were wonderful.

We've got our pensions now so we can afford the occasional luxury. I know not everyone can follow their dream. Some could but are too fearful to do so. And the dream can simply be to spend more time with those you love.

It's been the best eight years of our life. It is at least worth thinking whether you can have a better life rather than assuming you can't.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I was going to say before that there is a contradiction, given that most jobs want people to say in an interview that the job means more to them than just the money. ...
IME as an interviewer and an interviewee, the purpose of the interview is to find out if a candidate will be reliable, easy to get along with, and competent; will s/he take initiative, accept responsibility, and use good judgment; will s/he learn from mistakes and accept criticism, and so forth and so on. A successful candidate will provide specific examples of the foregoing and convince the interviewers that they have and will continue to do those things.

If an employer hires someone because they love the job, what happens if the employee falls out of love? If someone is hired because the job means so much to them, what happens when they discover another deeply meaningful activity? Obviously, any of us will be happier in a job that aligns with our personal values or preferences, but employers want to know that they can trust an employee to do her/his best work even when s/he doesn't agree or get everything s/he wants.

quote:
I'm not very good at lying. Which probably explains why I'm not good in most formal interview situations.
Yeah, well, as I've just pointed out above, it's not necessary to lie in an interview, unless you intend to be late every day and only work with colleagues you like.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
It hugely depends on what drives you. We broadly speaking have three groups of people within my department.

It is fairly easy to work out what motivates a careerist or a jobber. It is quite often hard to work out what motivates a geek, because you have to know what aspect of their job they "love". It may be the mastery of the technical aspects, it might be the finding of novel solutions, it might be curiosity and it might be simply helping others.

Jengie
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
There are the careerists. These are by far the most numerous and their aim is to climb up the corporate ladder and get the best pay and conditions they can. They are good at fitting in and getting things done in an efficient manner.
I don't know how you get the last sentence from the others! Some ladder-climbers are only good at 'fitting in' with those they think can give them up a boost up the ladder. If you're not beneficial to such a person's career, you're of no interest.
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Yeah, well, as I've just pointed out above, it's not necessary to lie in an interview, unless you intend to be late every day and only work with colleagues you like.
The last job interview I had I told them that I would not choose that kind of work, but due to an accident I could no longer do work where much of the time I'd be on my feet, so now I was looking for office work. Despite no experience in that sector I got the job ahead of applicants who had experience.

I think that the interviewers are used to hearing bullshit, and can spot it easily.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Quite simple, the place is run by careerist, they provide the management so set the tone. Actually as they are the only group interested in managing this is quite understanding. That is behaviour they understand and applaud.

Jengie

[ 19. January 2014, 09:59: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 
Posted by Merchant Trader (# 9007) on :
 
I think its about economic necessity

I was lucky, I got a job that I have enjoyed and which has paid well but I cannot say I decided to do what I love. In my generation it was all important to jet a job, leave home and become independent. There was no real option - economic necessity - and you went for jobs where you could support yourself and family.

I my children's generation many huge numbers seem to be pursuing what they love but many still living at home in their 20s and even 30s. I suspect there are many reasons for this including:

The jobs our generation went into no longer exist, especially at entry level
It feels better to be poor, partially employed, living at home trying to do something you love that trying and failing to get any job.
Parents are beer able to subsidise and in many cases houses are bigger.

So perhaps doing what you love only seems an economic luxury and the alternative is no longer there. If this is the result of global changes my real worry is for the grandchildren's generation whose parents will not be able to help out. But perhaps the grand -children will be forced to work and create the new wealth needed?
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
I've been thinking about this question a lot and find it difficult to answer from my own life experience , probably because I don't fit the *norm* .

Since leaving school aged eighteen with 9 O-levels and 3 A-levels I've never had a career . In hindsight I think it was possibly some sort of career phobia .
Nevertheless I've been fortunate enough in life to be doing work that gives me a kind of pleasure , though some may say it's masochistic pleasure .

This work has ranged from general farm work, (on small farms that have now largely disappeared ), long hours tractor-driving for contractors , a short spell running my own farm , (which turned out to be the least pleasurable) , digging graves, and now helping out making and fixing memorials .

In the midst of most working days it's impossible to say if I love or loathe work , approaching my mid 50s it might tend towards the latter, (certainly on cold wet mornings anyway).
In retrospect though I'd say some of my happiest times have been clearing out farm slurry pits or digging holes . The power of job-satisfaction is not to be under estimated .
 


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