Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re Oxford and geography, it's always been on the Midlands Today map!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I don't think many Midlanders would consider it to be in the Midlands though, I'd put it in the Thames Valley which surely means the South. quote:I would draw a very big distinction between those who went to Oxbridge through their own choice as undergraduates, and those who take second degrees in Theology in their time at theological college.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And until recently all CofE ordinands were trained at Oxbridge, according to the link!
quote:I don't recall anyone saying otherwise. The idea of the 'specialness' of ordination to those who hold to that, isn't anything to do with the specialness of the person holding the office but the office itself ...
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:Very different now. You can find pretty much any board anywhere in England, and can even vary within one school (or even one department - the first school I worked in used different boards for GCSE and A-Level). Moving schools should only be a serious problem in the 4 years around GCSEs and A-Levels, however. Spousal careers are likely to be the bigger issue these days, and indeed has been for a good friend of mine, though he's already in the north.
Originally posted by L'organist:
One of the biggest stumbling blocks to easy movement south to north when I was young was that the exam boards at secondary level were completely different, so if you had a couple (or more) children at secondary level you were probably unable to move.
quote:Are you able to provide either a link or a summary of that survey. It sounds as though it could be interesting and useful?
Originally posted by OddJob:
I wonder how a comparison of affluent northern towns and poor southern ones would read?
That said, the survey a year or two ago by the Evangelical Alliance looking at church demographics made interesting reading. I took part and read the results, which confirmed the existence of the regional bias in church membership I'd long perceived, in over 30 adult years living in four cities in the north and Midlands. These days I'm equidistant from London, the main Yorkshire cities and Liverpool. Yet I've met hardly any fellow Yorkshiremen in the church, compared to countless folk from London (with only double Yorkshire's population) and for some reason a remarkably high number of Scousers.
quote:Isn't that just saying that more people from the south live in the Midlands than from Yorkshire?
Originally posted by OddJob:
That said, the survey a year or two ago by the Evangelical Alliance looking at church demographics made interesting reading. I took part and read the results, which confirmed the existence of the regional bias in church membership I'd long perceived, in over 30 adult years living in four cities in the north and Midlands. These days I'm equidistant from London, the main Yorkshire cities and Liverpool. Yet I've met hardly any fellow Yorkshiremen in the church, compared to countless folk from London (with only double Yorkshire's population) and for some reason a remarkably high number of Scousers.
quote:If it was an issue of poshness alone, then they wouldn't want to go to deprived areas in the South either.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That article reminds me of a long-gone thread about the poshness of CofE vicars. It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
quote:"Very flat, Norfolk".
Originally posted by Charles Read:
... In Norfolk, we find recruiting hard for many parish posts - we are not clear why, but factors may include that people think Norfolk is remote from civilisation (not entirely true.... - Norwich to London in under two hours; Cambridge in about an hour) but also that clergy don't want to move far in case their spouse cannot get a new job.
quote:Assuming there isn't a signal failure at Chelmsford, a broken-down train at Diss, over-running engineering works at Witham, a staff shortage at Crown Point depot ...
Originally posted by Charles Read:
People think Norfolk is remote from civilisation (not entirely true.... - Norwich to London in under two hours; Cambridge in about an hour).
quote:The other side of the borough is hardly the other side of the country! He can still get to his favourite haunts.
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:If it was an issue of poshness alone, then they wouldn't want to go to deprived areas in the South either.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That article reminds me of a long-gone thread about the poshness of CofE vicars. It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
The vicar of my parish church is leaving a leafy inner London suburb for the mostly black, mostly poor area on the other side of the borough. And this is a man with a double-barrelled name who uses golf as analogy in his sermons.
quote:I wonder why they don't do that. They might as well just become the church planting wing of the CofE if that's how other people see them!
If Holy Trinity Brompton decided to set up a church plant somewhere in the North they would have their pick of Ridley and Wycliffe Hall graduates.
quote:Heyya ma ma ma, hey-dee-da-naya
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That article reminds me of a long-gone thread about the poshness of CofE vicars. It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
It's noticeable that the largest churches (CofE or otherwise) in England are more likely to be in the South than in the North, and large churches are more likely to have young people - just the right age to be considering ordination. Middle class folk are more likely to be in church, and also more likely to be in the South, where the good jobs are (hence middle class ordinands are also likely to be from there). And until recently all CofE ordinands were trained at Oxbridge, according to the link! Those are institutions with a southern bias, geographically and culturally.
The article doesn't make any mention of other churches in the vicinity of St. Oswald's. It would be encouraging to know that there are other options if the CofE is really struggling. But I doubt that any of them are doing well in that area.
(Refs are available)
quote:Life in a Northern town
originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And again, in the Queen's English please?
)quote:If the churches in the North are struggling as much as people say then perhaps it ill behoves them to be too fussy about churchmanship! Moreover, it might do some of the incoming clergy good to be in a theological environment where they can see that the obvious need for willing workers is far more urgent than the need to exclude women from the ministry.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Svitlana - there are priests from elsewhere in the Anglican communion here, particularly Sydney Anglicans in conservative evangelical churches. I think the huge differences in theology (especially the female clergy issue) must make it difficult to import clergy wholesale. I'm not sure if many archdioceses in the communion have quite the same variety of churchmanship that we do - maybe Canada? New Zealand? I'd imagine that those countries, with their very rural areas, need their clergy too much to give some to us.
quote:I think this is both misunderstanding what churchmanship means - it's not about fussiness or what you prefer, but about theological conviction - and very idealistic about those opposing female clergy. To them, women are not real clergy, period, it's not about fussiness.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:If the churches in the North are struggling as much as people say then perhaps it ill behoves them to be too fussy about churchmanship! Moreover, it might do some of the incoming clergy good to be in a theological environment where they can see that the obvious need for willing workers is far more urgent than the need to exclude women from the ministry.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Svitlana - there are priests from elsewhere in the Anglican communion here, particularly Sydney Anglicans in conservative evangelical churches. I think the huge differences in theology (especially the female clergy issue) must make it difficult to import clergy wholesale. I'm not sure if many archdioceses in the communion have quite the same variety of churchmanship that we do - maybe Canada? New Zealand? I'd imagine that those countries, with their very rural areas, need their clergy too much to give some to us.
We sometimes read about (non-CofE) African evangelists proclaiming that they need to be in the UK to re-evangelise the Motherland. We don't hear so much about how they envision this project a few years after embarking upon it, but some have surely realised that reaching the indigenous population is much harder than they expected. Perhaps this leads to greater humility. It would certainly be interesting to follow the trajectory of an African Anglican minister and their work in a parish like the one in the OP.
quote:With respect, you are not an Anglican and aren't seeing the theological differences on the ground. The traditionalists are very, very resistant to context of any kind. So yes, it may change within 100 years or so but it's not going to happen anytime soon and myself and other Anglicans are the ones dealing with that.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I tend to feel that theological convictions are often bound up with our context. When our context changes, our convictions are challenged. People do change. And migrant religiosity changes in a new environment.
quote:Having now lived here for 8 years, I definitely agree (and so does BBC regional programming, though its definition of "east" includes Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, which I would dispute). I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands.
quote:But "Ecumenical" has to be the way ahead - as suggested by this paper from the Diocese of Carlisle. However it does not (here at least) address the points you raise about decline and resourcing, nor the issues of folk who think that Nonconformist Ministers aren't "real priests", or Nonconformist church members who think that Anglicans aren't "proper Christians"!
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One letter mentioned that although the Methodists once filled the long-standing gap left by the CofE's inadequate northern presence, many of the Nonconformist churches have now withdrawn from those struggling communities. It's very sad, but understandable. As much as they may want to serve the poor, Methodist, Baptist, URC and Independent congregations, etc., can't function as institutional units without money. Industrial decline in the North must have decimated the churches there.
quote:Correct (with the exclusion of Cambridgeshire) if you go by William the Conqueror.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:Having now lived here for 8 years, I definitely agree (and so does BBC regional programming, though its definition of "east" includes Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, which I would dispute). I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands.
quote:African Anglicans have plenty of work to do in their own countries, first of all. In the area I'm familiar with (West Africa) there are a growing number of prosperity gospel/miracle healing churches that are fleecing people of the little money they have in exchange for "power prayers" leading to health and wealth. Many of these are deeply corrupt and hurting people's faiths and wallets. Orthodox (small "o" here) churches stand as a counterpoint to this type of activity.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
We sometimes read about (non-CofE) African evangelists proclaiming that they need to be in the UK to re-evangelise the Motherland. We don't hear so much about how they envision this project a few years after embarking upon it, but some have surely realised that reaching the indigenous population is much harder than they expected. Perhaps this leads to greater humility. It would certainly be interesting to follow the trajectory of an African Anglican minister and their work in a parish like the one in the OP.
quote:Oh, I'd ignore him. My ancestors were all German.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:Correct (with the exclusion of Cambridgeshire) if you go by William the Conqueror.
I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
quote:Not even close.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I have been to Cirencester, Bath and Bristol as well as our ancestral home in Bucks. Do any of those count as North
quote:Sir Kevin, put simply, no. I may be putting my foot in it with reference to a culture I don't know, but it would be like calling up-state New York, the Mid-West.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Are there any comments on my post or is the North so horrible? I have been to Cirencester, Bath and Bristol as well as our ancestral home in Bucks. Do any of those count as North ... ?
quote:Few parts of the country have been entirely able to escape racial diversity, although nowhere is quite like London in that respect.
Originally posted by seekingsister:
African Anglicans have plenty of work to do in their own countries, first of all. In the area I'm familiar with (West Africa) there are a growing number of prosperity gospel/miracle healing churches that are fleecing people of the little money they have in exchange for "power prayers" leading to health and wealth. Many of these are deeply corrupt and hurting people's faiths and wallets. Orthodox (small "o" here) churches stand as a counterpoint to this type of activity.
Another point is that there may be concerns or fears among black or ethnic minority clergy in the CofE about their ability to lead and evangelize in less diverse parts of the country, where they may face discrimination.
quote:Well no, but there are large swathes of middle-class middle England where a non-white face is a rarity. There are also significant white-working-class ghettoes. North Liverpool (as opposed to south) was such for a long time, although it is slowly becoming more diverse. Former pit villages in County Durham are another example. In any of these places priests from an ethnic minority will possibly encounter prejudice, though rarely from their congregations.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Few parts of the country have been entirely able to escape racial diversity, although nowhere is quite like London in that respect.
quote:And that is where the sometimes-derided formal consultations and documents produced by the Ecumenical bodies CTE and CTBI may prove to be useful or even vital.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The partnerships may have to go beyond the usual Nonconformist-Anglican groupings ... Some of them might be willing to work with the CofE if theological commonalities can be thrashed out.
quote:What, compared to the city centre?
Originally posted by Enoch:
Blackbird Leys, incidentally, may be in Oxford, but that doesn't mean it isn't rough.
quote:I'm sure you are right. But you can't be surprised if many of them don't fancy taking the risk.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, if the people in those places never see black or brown faces they'll never get used to them, will they?? You've got to start somewhere.
Previous generations of immigrants have had to cope with prejudice and most have lived to tell the tale - and there are many tales. This is a trans-global world and people have to deal with these challenges all the time. African clergy shouldn't need special protection from prejudice when thousands of of other Africans have travelled the world and dealt with it wherever they've found it.
quote:I live in the South and outside of the main conurbations, ethnic minorities are rare. There are few non-whites in Devon or Cornwall, there are parts of Kent which are a lot more than 99% white.
Originally posted by Angloid:
Well no, but there are large swathes of middle-class middle England where a non-white face is a rarity. There are also significant white-working-class ghettoes. North Liverpool (as opposed to south) was such for a long time, although it is slowly becoming more diverse. Former pit villages in County Durham are another example. In any of these places priests from an ethnic minority will possibly encounter prejudice, though rarely from their congregations.
quote:The 'North' is more than just geography - in the area North of (approximately) Birmingham, the country gets narrower and there are more large cities, many of which were built on industry.
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Are there any comments on my post or is the North so horrible? I have been to Cirencester, Bath and Bristol as well as our ancestral home in Bucks. Do any of those count as North or places that have grave difficulty in securing permanent bishops and vicars?
quote:I'm not convinced. The mental image of a country parish in the West Country is rather more appealing than the same in Northumberland. It doesn't conjour the same image of bleakness or remoteness.
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:I live in the South and outside of the main conurbations, ethnic minorities are rare. There are few non-whites in Devon or Cornwall, there are parts of Kent which are a lot more than 99% white.
Originally posted by Angloid:
Well no, but there are large swathes of middle-class middle England where a non-white face is a rarity. There are also significant white-working-class ghettoes. North Liverpool (as opposed to south) was such for a long time, although it is slowly becoming more diverse. Former pit villages in County Durham are another example. In any of these places priests from an ethnic minority will possibly encounter prejudice, though rarely from their congregations.
I don't know for an absolute fact (and would be interested to hear if anyone knows), but I suspect that the places where most ministers and clergy want to live are in London, the home counties and the Midlands. Outside of these, I suspect there are similar issues to those in the 'North'.
quote:Well as someone who was in a church in the west country, I can vouch for the fact that, on occasion, it could be very bleak.
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm not convinced. The mental image of a country parish in the West Country is rather more appealing than the same in Northumberland. It doesn't conjour the same image of bleakness or remoteness.
quote:No one is saying anyone should expect anything.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, if the people in those places never see black or brown faces they'll never get used to them, will they?? You've got to start somewhere.
Previous generations of immigrants have had to cope with prejudice and most have lived to tell the tale - and there are many tales. This is a trans-global world and people have to deal with these challenges all the time. African clergy shouldn't need special protection from prejudice when thousands of of other Africans have travelled the world and dealt with it wherever they've found it.
quote:Well that is kinda true, except that prior to joining the church he was a lawyer and then a judge, and if memory recalls, was also the Bishop of Birmingham for a while.
Originally posted by seekingsister:
And again - the Archbishop of York John Sentamu is African and spent most of his career prior to that posting in London. So it does happen.
quote:This is also an interesting point. My perception is that there are large numbers of places within urban areas where the churches are dwindling, and which must be an unattractive place to go as a minister.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
FWIW my own denomination seemingly suffers from the same struggle to fill posts at the margins esp. run down estates. Sure we can put the Pioneers out into new territory - but that's rather sexier than picking up the pieces of poor churchmanship in deprived estates.
I trained in the SE but chose to go to the place where I believed God wanted me to be. It wasn't easy by any means, but it was worth it.
quote:I think this is partly down to sociology. People who are committed to church tend to be committed to a particular kind of church, and tend to be prepared to travel to it. As a result of these two things, that tends to be more attractive to a certain sort of person. I think the days when the majority of people walked to a church in their locality are long gone.
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Apparently we expect folk to travel a long way to our churches....why can't we take church to where the people live?
quote:But people who are new to Christianity are not all that committed to a particular kind of church, ISTM. On the other hand (in my limited experience and from what I've read - I'm no expert!), they seem to want a church that meets locally to them and offers a warm welcome.
Originally posted by pydseybare:
People who are committed to church tend to be committed to a particular kind of church, and tend to be prepared to travel to it.
quote:That's true and a good point. I suppose the question is then to whom the church is most attractive - which may again be the middle classes.
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But people who are new to Christianity are not all that committed to a particular kind of church, ISTM. On the other hand (in my limited experience and from what I've read - I'm no expert!), they seem to want a church that meets locally to them and offers a warm welcome.
quote:Yeah, sadly I cannot agree that this is a good thing. Using debt councelling deliberately as a way to convert new Christians is pretty low and deceptive, in my opinion.
My church runs a debt advice centre (with Christians Against Poverty) and we've seen plenty of people become Christians through this work. Some of them have joined our church community, but others - especially those who live across town from where we meet - have joined others, of a range of different denominations.
quote:I read something last week that suggested that the need to be near aged parents was one reason people were reluctant to "move north". Another point made in this article (which I cannot remember where it was, sorry) was that the London diocese is the largest source of ordinands by some way. It is, apparently, the source of twice as many ordinands as the next most prolific diocese.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
We spent almost a decade in the North, but then moved back South. Family pressures were mostly in play - we really needed to be near both sets of parents. But also there was a feeling that although we had enjoyed our time in Yorkshire, we missed our roots. Family and friend networks are really important to sustain yourself in ministry and it's hard to keep those going over a few hundred miles!
quote:That may be how it is seen. Within a mile of where I sit there's an estate - very deprived - with 5000 people there. What church presence do the Anglican hierarchy think they need? A very heavy high church liturgy with little social action. A priest who is seemingly indifferent about pastoral care spending most of their time at another church at the posh end of the mission community. A huge credibility gap exists.
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Maybe the truth is that it is the middle-class 'happening' suburbs that are the most attractive places to become the minister of many/most churches.
quote:Is every resident of the north youthful and vigorous, then? Or is the environment for parents north of the Watford Gap so unhealthy that they shuffle off their mortal coil before age creeps in? (The alternative, of course, is that they all move south to Bexhill).
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I read something last week that suggested that the need to be near aged parents was one reason people were reluctant to "move north".
quote:It's certainly related to the point that most of the colleges ordaining clergy are in the South, so most of the new priests are from the South, and presumably their parents as well.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Is every resident of the north youthful and vigorous, then? Or is the environment for parents north of the Watford Gap so unhealthy that they shuffle off their mortal coil before age creeps in? (The alternative, of course, is that they all move south to Bexhill).
quote:Maybe not (although have you seen Angloid's post?), but are the ones trained in the North staying up there? The curate in the local parish(London) was trained at Durham quite recently, so he didn't want to stay there for some reason.
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
I strongly doubt that most ordinands are being trained in the south.
quote:I grew up in the West Country, I know well enough. But I'm talking about image, not reality, as it is that which attracts or repels those considering living and working there.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:Well as someone who was in a church in the west country, I can vouch for the fact that, on occasion, it could be very bleak.
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm not convinced. The mental image of a country parish in the West Country is rather more appealing than the same in Northumberland. It doesn't conjour the same image of bleakness or remoteness.
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
My church runs a debt advice centre (with Christians Against Poverty) and we've seen plenty of people become Christians through this work. Some of them have joined our church community, but others - especially those who live across town from where we meet - have joined others, of a range of different denominations.
quote:To be fair, I doubt that SCK's church expects the debt service users to join the church in exchange for assistance. But those service users are presumably aware that the help is being offered in a Christian environment, and a few of them might find that comforting. There will always be a 'Christian taint' on such a service, unless the church building is merely a hired venue and all the advisors and assistants come in from elsewhere. We should hold the state accountable if purely secular assistance isn't available.
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Yeah, sadly I cannot agree that this is a good thing. Using debt councelling deliberately as a way to convert new Christians is pretty low and deceptive, in my opinion.
quote:Indeed. And as far as I know this made absolutely clear to all the service users right from the start.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
To be fair, I doubt that SCK's church expects the debt service users to join the church in exchange for assistance.
quote:I'm sure all CAP clients soon become aware that the service has an upfront Christian ethos, even if they don't figure it out from the name! Mind you, some might find that a threat (as opposed to comforting) but then there are other free debt counselling / advice services. CAP evidently feel that, on balance, it's good for them to be an explicitly Christian-based organisation, and I don't see any reason to disagree.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But those service users are presumably aware that the help is being offered in a Christian environment, and a few of them might find that comforting.
quote:For those that have never been there, would it help the discussion if I said that I found Morcambe one of the most depressing places I've been to in recent years, particularly when it's got such a fantastic setting and is next door to rather swish places like Hest Bank and Silverdale? It struck me as a holiday resort which with cheap flights to the Costas had had the bottom drop out of its market. The boarding houses seemed to be being used as a dumping ground by every Social Services Department in Lancashire. I don't know Essex or Kent very well, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar places there. Even more depressing than Ilfracombe in January.
Originally posted by GreyBeard:
I posted here a few days ago suggesting that the north, however defined, wasn't all bleak. A reply told me that where I live, Lancaster, isn't the real north but a hippy-dippy place. I've refrained from commenting further until today, since I spend some of my time in Morecambe, a typically struggling seaside town. ...
quote:I don't know about Essex but there are certainly places like that in Kent and Sussex. Even the East Sussex town I lived in is not exactly depressing - it does pretty well in terms of holidaymakers, has nice hotels - has its share of bleak boarding houses and B&Bs that are used as council/social services dumping grounds, and I know because that was my situation once.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:For those that have never been there, would it help the discussion if I said that I found Morcambe one of the most depressing places I've been to in recent years, particularly when it's got such a fantastic setting and is next door to rather swish places like Hest Bank and Silverdale? It struck me as a holiday resort which with cheap flights to the Costas had had the bottom drop out of its market. The boarding houses seemed to be being used as a dumping ground by every Social Services Department in Lancashire. I don't know Essex or Kent very well, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar places there. Even more depressing than Ilfracombe in January.
Originally posted by GreyBeard:
I posted here a few days ago suggesting that the north, however defined, wasn't all bleak. A reply told me that where I live, Lancaster, isn't the real north but a hippy-dippy place. I've refrained from commenting further until today, since I spend some of my time in Morecambe, a typically struggling seaside town. ...
quote:I would definitely include Cambridgeshire in Eastern England. The north end in particular is proper Puritan East Anglia.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:Correct (with the exclusion of Cambridgeshire) if you go by William the Conqueror.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:Having now lived here for 8 years, I definitely agree (and so does BBC regional programming, though its definition of "east" includes Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, which I would dispute). I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands.
quote:Traditionalists don't just include evangelicals (and not all evangelical Anglicans are conservative), but I would say that evangelicals would be the ones with the biggest growth. Whilst I wouldn't discount the work of the Holy Spirit in terms of prospects for the rest of us* (I don't think it's quite as bleak as you suggest!), evangelicals have tapped into a successful formula. I certainly think that Northern clergy might find more of them coming to fill the gap. I think the evangelical (especially conservative evangelical) stance on what the CoE is for is quite different to other CoE groups, and they generally have much less loyalty to Anglicanism. There is a sense that they want to claim it for their own, however. I don't know if you've ever read Christianity magazine? That is pretty illuminating.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Wow! Evangelical Anglicanism must be en route to conquering the world if it has such single minded and ruthless clergy in its midst! The rest of you have no hope if that's what you're up against!
The North should make other plans, then, but in the long run perhaps it won't make much difference.
quote:Strangely enough our mostly black church has just recruited a double-barrelled vicar from a neighbouring parish which is uphill and upmarket of us...
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The vicar of my parish church is leaving a leafy inner London suburb for the mostly black, mostly poor area on the other side of the borough. And this is a man with a double-barrelled name who uses golf as analogy in his sermons.
.
quote:You've been to South London I see.
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Closely packed, historically alienated housing estates. Not sexy. Not easy. Not exactly having ordinands queuing up to plant there.
quote:We've chatted before - yes we're talking about the same gentleman. Very nice man.
Originally posted by ken:
quote:Strangely enough our mostly black church has just recruited a double-barrelled vicar from a neighbouring parish which is uphill and upmarket of us...
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The vicar of my parish church is leaving a leafy inner London suburb for the mostly black, mostly poor area on the other side of the borough. And this is a man with a double-barrelled name who uses golf as analogy in his sermons.
.
It will be odd to have a white middle-class middle-aged clergy couple with kids. None of them have fitted that description for 20 years or so. In fact none of our regular congregation fit that description. No married couples where both are white as far as I know.
quote:Try living in Oxford, where we get BBC South Today. For some reason the BBC has decided that our "local" news should also take in everywhere on the south coast from Portsmouth to Bridport (ie pretty much the eastern coastal border with Devon)... For the non-UK residents, or indeed those UK residents who are served by something logical like Midlands Today, just look at a map!
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:I would definitely include Cambridgeshire in Eastern England. The north end in particular is proper Puritan East Anglia.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:Correct (with the exclusion of Cambridgeshire) if you go by William the Conqueror.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:Having now lived here for 8 years, I definitely agree (and so does BBC regional programming, though its definition of "east" includes Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, which I would dispute). I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands.
And yes, BBC Look East includes Northamptonshire and Bedfordshire which I find very odd. Beds/Bucks/Herts surely belong together in the South East/Home Counties? Northamptonshire is, admittedly, right at the edge of the East Midlands but I definitely consider it to be in the Midlands. Northants/Bedfordshire is quite a strange little area geographically-speaking anyway.
quote:St Mellitus is I believe affiliated with HTB - not sure if officially or not. A lot of the lecturers are vicars from their family of churches. And the press loves writing about HTB because it's the perfect combination of religion and poshness that gets the articles clicks and comments from left-wing atheists.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Relevant article to this discussion.
I do note the predominance of clergy children and HTB, mind. It's not a criticism, just an observation that age seems to be the only variable here!
quote:Well, clearly compared to the city centre. But, also, apparently surprisingly to those who think Oxford's all dreaming spires, compared to the UK.
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:What, compared to the city centre?
Originally posted by Enoch:
Blackbird Leys, incidentally, may be in Oxford, but that doesn't mean it isn't rough.
quote:HTB surely also has the popularity factor as well as being the home of Alpha - I wouldn't really have called HTB posh actually, although I suppose it is.
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:St Mellitus is I believe affiliated with HTB - not sure if officially or not. A lot of the lecturers are vicars from their family of churches. And the press loves writing about HTB because it's the perfect combination of religion and poshness that gets the articles clicks and comments from left-wing atheists.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Relevant article to this discussion.
I do note the predominance of clergy children and HTB, mind. It's not a criticism, just an observation that age seems to be the only variable here!
quote:There's a similar picture in Brighton although Brighton's poshness is rather different, and I hear there are also similar situations in Cambridge.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:Well, clearly compared to the city centre. But, also, apparently surprisingly to those who think Oxford's all dreaming spires, compared to the UK.
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:What, compared to the city centre?
Originally posted by Enoch:
Blackbird Leys, incidentally, may be in Oxford, but that doesn't mean it isn't rough.
http://www.uklocalarea.com/stats/q/Blackbird+Leys/wc/38UCFU/l/E01028517
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird_Leys
sorry it's wiki, but it's a start. Some choice facts about Blackbird Leys:
- it's one of the largest social housing estates in the EU
-it's in the 10% most deprived areas in England according to that article (and, according to something I've read but can't find, it's actually much closer to being in the 1%)
- it was where joyriding was invented
- bottom 30% English income deprivation
- bottom 10% English education
- bottom 10% barriers to services
- bottom 20% crime
However, given the proximity to a UNESCO world heritage site, I'm sure it's a huge consolation to the residents that in terms of environment it's better than 90% of England according to the first link!
None of this is to attack BL by the way - I go there pretty much every week and there is a very strong sense of community and some wonderful people. But Oxford's not all high tables, and to the surprise of many tourists who never get outside the centre, it actually contains some of the country's most challenging and deprived areas.
I don't think many Midlanders would consider it to be in the Midlands though, I'd put it in the Thames Valley which surely means the South.
quote:I grew up in Kidderminster so am well used to seeing Oxford on the Midlands Today weather map. You'll notice though that they don't actually report on any Oxford news. ITV is different, because Oxford is served by Central, which puts it in with the Midlands for news.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re Oxford and geography, it's always been on the Midlands Today map!
quote:After the last round of censuses but one (maybe after the last one as well but I haven't seen it) the government statistical people did a cluster analysis of all local authority districts in UK (unsurprisingly Tower Hamlets was the outlying case).
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There's a similar picture in Brighton although Brighton's poshness is rather different, and I hear there are also similar situations in Cambridge.
quote:Isn't there an argument that there's an area called the 'South Midlands' that includes Oxford? Not sure if I buy it myself.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:I grew up in Kidderminster so am well used to seeing Oxford on the Midlands Today weather map. You'll notice though that they don't actually report on any Oxford news. ITV is different, because Oxford is served by Central, which puts it in with the Midlands for news.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re Oxford and geography, it's always been on the Midlands Today map!
It's the Thames Valley alright, I just struggle with the inclusion of west Dorset!
quote:Well there is certainly a North Midlands! I tend to think of the 'South Midlands' as more like the 'South West Midlands' and including places like Hereford and Worcester. Certainly the original Oxfordshire accent is very like a west country accent. Historically Oxfordshire has had bigger links to the Midlands and West than to the South.
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:Isn't there an argument that there's an area called the 'South Midlands' that includes Oxford? Not sure if I buy it myself.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:I grew up in Kidderminster so am well used to seeing Oxford on the Midlands Today weather map. You'll notice though that they don't actually report on any Oxford news. ITV is different, because Oxford is served by Central, which puts it in with the Midlands for news.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re Oxford and geography, it's always been on the Midlands Today map!
It's the Thames Valley alright, I just struggle with the inclusion of west Dorset!
quote:I think you could reasonably carve out a cohesive area which would go north to Banbury and Chipping Norton, south to Reading, east to MK, and west to Swindon with Oxford in the middle (straight line borders so eg Cheltenham gets excluded as that's not really us) and call it something as that's what local/regional round here means in reality. South Midlands would be as good a term as any. We're not the south particularly, but then we're definitely not the Midlands either. Interestingly what I would think of as the boundaries of the South, South East, West Country and West Midlands are all about equidistant from Carfax, so I don't really know where that leaves us. I'd go with Thames Valley, but then once you get any further than Thame that doesn't really mean much to Oxford either. Even Henley, at the extreme southern end of the county, isn't really in Oxford's orbit IMO.
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:Isn't there an argument that there's an area called the 'South Midlands' that includes Oxford? Not sure if I buy it myself.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:I grew up in Kidderminster so am well used to seeing Oxford on the Midlands Today weather map. You'll notice though that they don't actually report on any Oxford news. ITV is different, because Oxford is served by Central, which puts it in with the Midlands for news.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re Oxford and geography, it's always been on the Midlands Today map!
It's the Thames Valley alright, I just struggle with the inclusion of west Dorset!
quote:You might like to read this which might persuade you that the West Country is not all nice thatched cottages and cream teas.
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm not convinced. The mental image of a country parish in the West Country is rather more appealing than the same in Northumberland. It doesn't conjour the same image of bleakness or remoteness.
quote:Where someone might serve their curacy and where they train are not related. It is a diocese which accepts someone for training, and unless 'released', it is the sending diocese which places ordinands for their curacies. The London diocese has more ordinands than curacies, so many are released.
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It's certainly related to the point that most of the colleges ordaining clergy are in the South, so most of the new priests are from the South, and presumably their parents as well.
quote:I'd put Northamptonshire, in the East Midlands, and regard the huge empty bit, Stow-in-the-Wold, Moreton-in-the-Marsh, Festering-in-the-Fosse, etc as of the essence of the South Midlands.
Originally posted by ken:
To me "South Midlands" would be the area including roughly Oxfordshire, north Buckinghamshire (i.e. Milton Keynes), Bedfordshire, Northamptonshire, the parts of Warwickshire around Rugby. Lower Middle England.
quote:Not disagreeing, but that link is several years old and presents (possibly with good reason) a one-sided picture. There is or was a Tory think-tank which proposed effectively closing down Liverpool and moving people to the south-east. Crazy when [a] we have lots of empty housing, and plenty of brownfield sites to build more, and workplaces; [b] the south-east is already overcrowded to the point of being dysfunctional; and [c] our climate, though never exciting or very tropical, generally avoids the extremes such as has been experienced in the south and west.
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
What the South does not have is Shrinking Cities (no not the worse case try Sunderland for that). That brings its own problems that makes the North distinctive from the South.
Jengie
quote:In Cambridge it's the Arbury Estate and bordering it, Kings Hedges. Other parts that used to be bad (Mill Road, Romsey Town aka Little Russia) have been gentrified.
There's a similar picture in Brighton although Brighton's poshness is rather different, and I hear there are also similar situations in Cambridge.
quote:Did it perchance have the privilege of educating Ken?
Originally posted by ken:
... Cambridge clearly has Britain's best university. Possibly the world's. No need to compete with other cities in the post-industrial desolation stakes.
quote:No; IIRC ken's said elsewhere that he was at university in the north.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Did it perchance have the privilege of educating Ken?
Originally posted by ken:
... Cambridge clearly has Britain's best university. Possibly the world's. No need to compete with other cities in the post-industrial desolation stakes.
quote:The latest deprivation studies are linked on this page, according to which, part of the Blackbird Leys falls (just) within the top 10% of deprived areas, according to the (relative) IMD measure. But part of the City Centre falls within the top 20%, and within the top 2% on health deprivation.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
... it's one of the largest social housing estates in the EU
-it's in the 10% most deprived areas in England according to that article (and, according to something I've read but can't find, it's actually much closer to being in the 1%)
quote:Presumably, since the BL are inside the city boundary, they are actually part of the world heritage site.
However, given the proximity to a UNESCO world heritage site, I'm sure it's a huge consolation to the residents that in terms of environment it's better than 90% of England according to the first link!
quote:Oxford city centre is also pretty challenging, if you're homeless. But the BL (I'm also in the area quite regularly) do seem to be a favourite target for folk who go deprivation hunting, and it's no worse (and probably a fair bit better in some ways) than similar estates in other towns. And I think someone mentioned in another thread that the CMS (from their posh HQ just over the road from the Leys) were sponsoring someone from East Africa to 'mission' to the inhabitants, which seems somewhat patronizing, to say the least.
None of this is to attack BL by the way - I go there pretty much every week and there is a very strong sense of community and some wonderful people. But Oxford's not all high tables, and to the surprise of many tourists who never get outside the centre, it actually contains some of the country's most challenging and deprived areas.
quote:Thanks for that very interesting link.
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
The latest deprivation studies are linked on this page, according to which, part of the Blackbird Leys falls (just) within the top 10% of deprived areas, according to the (relative) IMD measure. But part of the City Centre falls within the top 20%, and within the top 2% on health deprivation.
.
quote:A previous curate brought them along to the church and I remember finding the whole thing a bit embarrassing.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I heard Helen and Patrick Mukholi speak a few years back. They are CMS partners from the Mombasa Diocese in East Africa who came to the UK to do this missionary work in the Blackbird Leys estates near Oxford, so not the north of England, but definitely missionary work in a deprived area. They found the effects on their son hard - and the choices about his schooling.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Strangely enough our mostly black church has just recruited a double-barrelled vicar from a neighbouring parish which is uphill and upmarket of us...
It will be odd to have a white middle-class middle-aged clergy couple with kids. None of them have fitted that description for 20 years or so. In fact none of our regular congregation fit that description. No married couples where both are white as far as I know.
quote:I don't doubt that this man is a wonderful and caring vicar, but I find it hard to see his move to a largely black church in the same city as a sign of tremendous self-sacrifice.
Originally posted by seekingsister:
We've chatted before - yes we're talking about the same gentleman. Very nice man.
And I'm sure you can grasp that the demographics of the church he's leaving and the one he's going to are very different. Enough that I'm unwilling to accept that poshness alone, keeps Southern clergy away from the North. I think there is an attitude of service within the CofE clergy and willingness to live in less desirable areas when required, but there are larger regional/national dynamics that might explain the North/South divide.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Over half of London's churchgoers are non-white, and any London-based vicar who wants to continue to enjoy the benefits of London life will surely have to consider moving to a similar kind of church?
quote:I never said it was. I'm disagreeing with the view that posh Southerners prefer to stay in the South so as to be around other post people. I don't think that's the reason people are not going to the North - because of perceptions of social class.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't doubt that this man is a wonderful and caring vicar, but I find it hard to see his move to a largely black church in the same city as a sign of tremendous self-sacrifice.
quote:I found a similar time-warp experience in moving from Lancaster to West Yorkshire. Little things like a small market town with 4 excellent butchers, a regular, well used market and a fairly wide range of independent shops and very few chains. People hanging their washing on lines stretching across the street (many of the streets cobbled) between tiny back-to-backs that I had until this point thought had all been demolished due to poor ventilation. And a real sense of a community whose glories were in the past, the ward I lived in was pretty high up in the IMD lists.
Originally posted by Angloid:
Culture clashes can be unpredictable. I moved from one of the most deprived towns in the NW of England to a part of south London that is now pretty affluent, and even then was fast heading that way. Yet it was like moving from the 1980s (it was then) into the 1950s. We moved from a late 20th century fashion-conscious (albeit Primark version) telly-and-concrete new town to a district of Edwardian terraced houses where people kept themselves to themselves and read the Daily Mail and decorated their houses in embossed beige wallpaper. Admittedly the upmarket newcomers soon began to change that, but the shock was real.
There were still a few people with a single cold tap in a tiny scullery, and even one whose house was lit by gas (in 1990!) And some who had never moved more than a few hundred metres from where they were born, and had never seen the Tower of London.
quote:That is particularly interesting considering that both areas have a nearby CoE theological college (and both producing priests of a mix of churchmanships). I have no idea what the churchmanship of those areas tends to look like though.
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Charles Read's link makes it interesting. There are probably two areas that are particularly clergy scarce, Newcastle/Tyneside and South Yorkshire. These to areas are highly dependent on stipendiary ministry and also have the highest ratio of population to stipendiary ministry.
Jengie
quote:Interesting (if confusing) that the Church seems to approve of SSMs in this context.
Originally posted by Charles Read:
On statistics, here are some from the Church of England:
Look - here is a General Synod officer who can count
quote:Would that explain this?
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
South Yorkshire is old Yorkshire Bible Belt, where non-conformity was the dominant form of church going a century ago, in the case of Sheffield Methodist of various colours. It has largely gone and the people who were once Non-conformist have not gone to Anglicanism.
quote:Interesting that with two exceptions they are all in the north-east Midlands/the southern part of Yorkshire (Kirklees, as Jengie Jon points out, is not in 'South Yorkshire' but it is east of the Pennines and in the southern part of West Yorkshire.)
The English Church Census of 2005 states that North East Lincolnshire is the area with the lowest rate of churchgoing. The link below adds that: 'The ‘bottom ten’ range from 3.6% in South Holland in Lincolnshire, followed by Kirklees, Wychavon (Worcs.), Telford and Wrekin, Doncaster, Fenland, Ashfield (Notts.), Bolsover (Derbyshire), Rotherham (S. Yorks), and North East Lincolnshire, which pulls up the rear at 2.6%.' Reasons weren't given.
quote:I actually looked at that list though and wondered if there's something else going on - based on the two that I know intimately, Wychavon and Telford. The Fens could be accounted for by the fact that a) pretty much no one lives there, and b) the church they don't go to is non-conformist. But the two in West Mercia are both substantially areas of post-war new town.
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:Would that explain this?
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
South Yorkshire is old Yorkshire Bible Belt, where non-conformity was the dominant form of church going a century ago, in the case of Sheffield Methodist of various colours. It has largely gone and the people who were once Non-conformist have not gone to Anglicanism.
[Originally posted by SvitlanaV2]
quote:Interesting that with two exceptions they are all in the north-east Midlands/the southern part of Yorkshire (Kirklees, as Jengie Jon points out, is not in 'South Yorkshire' but it is east of the Pennines and in the southern part of West Yorkshire.)
The English Church Census of 2005 states that North East Lincolnshire is the area with the lowest rate of churchgoing. The link below adds that: 'The ‘bottom ten’ range from 3.6% in South Holland in Lincolnshire, followed by Kirklees, Wychavon (Worcs.), Telford and Wrekin, Doncaster, Fenland, Ashfield (Notts.), Bolsover (Derbyshire), Rotherham (S. Yorks), and North East Lincolnshire, which pulls up the rear at 2.6%.' Reasons weren't given.
quote:Well, THIS Methodist would suggest that ministers have always committed to full itinerancy at acceptance for training (not ordination), since there are now no separated MLA's (LOM's to the Anglicans)... and I would say that such a commitment is in principle, not in theory. The fact that so many of my presbyteral colleagues (unlike most deacons of my acquaintance) appear to cross their fingers when they make such a commitment (judging by how many of them seem to commute around the M25, or Lancashire, or Birmingham, at five year intervals), thus rendering itinerancy something more honoured in the breach than the observance, does not detract from the Church's commitment to the principle.
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
This has some interesting echoes for this Methodist. In theory, Methodist ministers commit at ordination to full itinerancy, and are stationed for 5 years in each appointment.
In reality, extensions to appointments are commonplace nowadays, frequently to avoid interruption to schooling. Geographic restrictions are common as well - sometimes they are to allow care of an elderly relative, but increasingly nowadays spouses employment is an issue - "I need to be within an hour of XXX in order for my spouse to continue their job".
quote:The first time I saw Sheppey was a shock. Young women on the bus past the council estate dressed the way our neighbours on our estate did in the early 60s.
Originally posted by Angloid:
Yet it was like moving from the 1980s (it was then) into the 1950s. We moved from a late 20th century fashion-conscious (albeit Primark version) telly-and-concrete new town to a district of Edwardian terraced houses where people kept themselves to themselves and read the Daily Mail and decorated their houses in embossed beige wallpaper.
quote:American Methodist here (UMC) so there are some differences, but we're still theoretically itinerant within our district (so an ordained elder here could be sent anywhere in Northern Illinois, an area that one could spend most of a day driving across.) I hear rumours that people are thinking through how much the denomination should remain committed to itinerancy, and I do not know what the morrow will bring. However, I do know that I am married to someone who may be commissioned and eventually ordained in the church. And I am fully committed to him and his job, but I also have a career that I care about. A hundred years ago, even fifty, I'd have been much less likely to have said career. If he were asked to go far away, too far for me to commute, it wouldn't have mattered. Now you can say that either I support his career and would thus happily become itinerant myself or I do not support him. But thank God we do not view women as secondary beings unable to hold down a thinking job these days, and I am not so sure I think it reasonable to ask a family to make that choice. Now maybe I will quit if Bullfrog is commissioned and sent far away, I have some plans of my own certainly, but I think the church had better remember that clergy spouses who need to commute to the/a big city are real too. And until the church starts to pay my salary, they aren't my bosses. Perhaps it would behoove them to respect that its clergy have spouses with lives of their own.
Originally posted by Ondergard:
Well, THIS Methodist would suggest that ministers have always committed to full itinerancy at acceptance for training (not ordination), since there are now no separated MLA's (LOM's to the Anglicans)... and I would say that such a commitment is in principle, not in theory. The fact that so many of my presbyteral colleagues (unlike most deacons of my acquaintance) appear to cross their fingers when they make such a commitment (judging by how many of them seem to commute around the M25, or Lancashire, or Birmingham, at five year intervals), thus rendering itinerancy something more honoured in the breach than the observance, does not detract from the Church's commitment to the principle.
quote:I've read that housing estates have always had a low rate of churchgoing. One reason given is that it's difficult for the denominations to respond quickly enough to movements in the population and to establish churches at the heart of these communities. In my region (W. Midlands) I've noticed very few churches in the outlying estates. There's perhaps the CofE, the RCC (if it's an older ex-council estate) and an independent church (if it's a newer estate). You sometimes see a JW Kingdom Hall if there are lots of houses rather than flats.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Is there something in the experience of mass displacement from previous towns/areas and having to build a community from scratch? Ie, if everyone is living in a box on a vast estate, rather than the "mixed economy" of the traditional city centres from which they were moved (with slums hard up against civic institutions), then they have to go a lot further than the end of their street to go to church.
quote:I don't know if Milton Keynes (the New Town, rather than the now-swallowed village) counts as 'older'. I was told that when it was set up, each residential grid square had reserved a plot for a place of worship.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Something quite different: many older estates left spaces for churches or community buildings, even if they didn't actually build them. I suspect that's less common now unless it forms part of a Section 106 agreement.
quote:I live near a former social housing estate (quite a rough one and vast majority on extremely low incomes) that has been rebuilt privately, with a portion for social rent but the majority now for private ownership. In both its former and current iterations, there is a Church of England congregation located on-site, staffed by members of the parish church up the road.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
May I ask what you exactly mean by "estates"? ISTM that you are thinking of Social Housing/largely rented areas; the folk in these areas largely come from the social categories which are low in church attendance anyway. Of course there is the other kind of estate, i.e. large private developments - here I suspect the community dynamic is quite different.
quote:That's true. The Development Corporation also stipulated that each church should be a local ecumenical project with all denominations represented in the one congregation. Worked ok for a while then individual denominations began to meet in the community halls.
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
quote:I don't know if Milton Keynes (the New Town, rather than the now-swallowed village) counts as 'older'. I was told that when it was set up, each residential grid square had reserved a plot for a place of worship.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Something quite different: many older estates left spaces for churches or community buildings, even if they didn't actually build them. I suspect that's less common now unless it forms part of a Section 106 agreement.
quote:True, I can think of two or three church-plants that meet in ordinary houses, often purchased for the purpose.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Of course, since churches aren't always indicated by distinctive buildings it's possible that in some of these areas there are church fellowships in alternative venues. The casual passer-by might not be aware of this.
quote:There was also "culture lift" where people "bettered" themselves and moved out of the estate, while still commuting back to the church. In some cases that worked fine (for a bit), but ultimately these churches tended to lose touch with their community roots. Or else wars developed between the "old commuters" (who usually held the power and the purse-strings) and newer folk from the estate itself. I certainly know of one church which experienced these issues.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
There were church sites on such estates: many were used but few were adequately resourced (often a curate or an associate minister was sent there to cut their teeth). Many closed within 10 years, a lot staggered on and closed later. A lot left with a bad taste where the minister didn't even live there.
quote:This is common in established parts of cities too. I was once part of a church in an urban priority area. About half the congregation had 'made good' and moved away but came back on Sundays, mainly because of the anglo-catholic churchmanship.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:There was also "culture lift" where people "bettered" themselves and moved out of the estate, while still commuting back to the church. In some cases that worked fine (for a bit), but ultimately these churches tended to lose touch with their community roots. Or else wars developed between the "old commuters" (who usually held the power and the purse-strings) and newer folk from the estate itself. I certainly know of one church which experienced these issues.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
There were church sites on such estates: many were used but few were adequately resourced (often a curate or an associate minister was sent there to cut their teeth). Many closed within 10 years, a lot staggered on and closed later. A lot left with a bad taste where the minister didn't even live there.
