Ship of Fools: The post-Easter Question

Thread: The post-Easter Question Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=027064

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

"So God raised one person from the dead in the history of the human race, how does that help me?"

That might be more a difficult question than the tired debates about the nature of Christ's risen body. Thoughts?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

If we are in Christ, his body which is the Church, we know we will be raised up to everlasting life too. Christ's resurrection is the proof of that.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

There are one or two others raised from the dead mentioned in the Bible. That includes an unspecified number "many" who where resurrected either on his death or his resurrection, depending on which verse you read.

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

It doesn't unless it gives information or hints regarding things greater than Jesus' resurrection. This is why the emphasis is on God having been the cause of the resurrection of Jesus rather then it being merely a "conjuring trick with bones" or some bizarre freak of nature.

If God raised Jesus then at the very least it gives hope that there is some creative and redemptive power behind the universe which I would've thought should have some affect on us, even if it doesn't always hit home emotionally amidst the problems of our daily lives.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
"So God raised one person from the dead in the history of the human race, how does that help me?"

Because evil and death don't have the last word. God is in control and is more powerful than either.

And you can choose to board that train.

[ 21. April 2014, 14:14: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
"So God raised one person from the dead in the history of the human race, how does that help me?"

It shows me that whatever the physical consequences of serving God, nothing will keep me from his love.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

The thing is, we look at this from a perspective of western heaven/hell perspective, with a belief in post-mortem existence of some form. Even if we go to the eastern religions, there is a sense of existence, in some form, after death.

This is not how the Jewish understanding read things. From their perspective, after death there was no life, just death, oblivion, Sheol. Or maybe not oblivion, but a separation from their living tribe, family, people.

They lived on in their families, in the memories, in the stories, which is why family and tribe was so important to them.

Against this, Jesus resurrection was saying that death is not the end - there is something afterwards. What is more, that God could bring someone back meant that death - the final cutting off from the people that was so terminal for a Jew - was also within the control of God. He was bigger than that even.

Winding this forward, it means that today, our life - your life - has meaning, because it is not simply a time on earth that ends with oblivion.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

As I understand it, the Pharisees also had a theology of the afterlife. I'm not sure how theirs worked, but they believed in it.

Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
This is not how the Jewish understanding read things. From their perspective, after death there was no life, just death, oblivion, Sheol. Or maybe not oblivion, but a separation from their living tribe, family, people.

They lived on in their families, in the memories, in the stories, which is why family and tribe was so important to them.

This would make Mary's comment, "I know that he shall rise on the final day" regarding Lazarus rather anacronistic. I'm not saying that's impossible, but it seems to have been a reasonable thing to write in 100 AD that Jews had a general idea of a final rising from the dead - which differs somewhat from your depiction, I think.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Jesus's resurrection to transcendence from oblivion is qualitatively different. No one has partaken of that yet. In which all will be well for all. Because Jesus actually, actively saves.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Jewish belief has at its core that at the last when the Creator comes there will be resurrection - something that is referred to in the central prayer Shmoneh Esrah which is recited at morning, noon and evening prayers.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
There are one or two others raised from the dead mentioned in the Bible. That includes an unspecified number "many" who where resurrected either on his death or his resurrection, depending on which verse you read.

This is why we need to be careful to discern resurrection from resuscitation. Only Jesus was resurrected as the firstborn from among the dead. The others were brought back to life, but remained in the 'old' state out of which the resurrection body is later to come (c.f. 1 Cor 15:35-49).

Going back to the opening post, though, it is our questions that betray what direction we want the answers to take. To ask, "how does that help me?" is indicative of a rather self-centred mindset. It's not about "me". It is about the restoration of creation, of which "I" am a part, but am certainly not the focus of attention.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Aren't you the focus of yours?

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
"So God raised one person from the dead in the history of the human race, how does that help me?"

That might be more a difficult question than the tired debates about the nature of Christ's risen body. Thoughts?

We don't have to wonder what's t'other side of death (Christ defines that). We don't face it alone.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

The Easter question?

More apt for me is neither posing questions, nor expecting answers. Rather going with the immediate experience of Easter day. Comfort!and!joy!

Must the spiritual be intellectualized? Always?

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

For me yje "how does Jesus ressurection help ?" question tells me that if I am a believer I too will br ressurected after I die. Paul in his letters mentions it and
the promise of the ressurrection is a great source of of comfort to me. [Angel]

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
"So God raised one person from the dead in the history of the human race, how does that help me?"

It's not so much that Jesus was raised from the dead per se, it's that God incarnated as one of us, then resurrected and glorified that Divine Human so that from now on, for all time, he can be be part of his own creation. He redeemed the human race two thousand years ago, and now he can keep it from ever needing to be redeemed again.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Actually, whilst incarnation, perfect life, atoning sacrifice, bodily resurrection, glorious ascension and redemptive return are all part of the one saving act, it's actually the cross itself that is the main effective work - it is the cross that saves, the cross that is the power of God unto salvation. We preach Christ crucified.

The resurrection validates the cross and reveals Jesus to be Lord and Christ. The resurrection happened to and for Jesus, not us; what it does do is guarantee our own resurrection and final redemption, won and paid for on the cross.

[ 22. April 2014, 07:53: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aren't you the focus of yours?

I guess that is the central issue, Martin. The selfish focus on "I" is the disease for which the crucifixion/resurrection event is the cure.

Which I think is the point of John's recording of this "I am" comment by Jesus.

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he die, yet shall he live. And those who live and believe in me shall never die".

We fight hard to hang on to selfishness, despite the central and repeated proclamation that it is really bad for us. Rising above selfishness on a daily basis is a little miracle which I think mirrors in some way the resurrection of Jesus. Anyway, it is helpful to see it as an outworking of the victory over sin and death. Christus Victor can be grasped.

Easter people in a Good Friday world?

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Actually, whilst incarnation, perfect life, atoning sacrifice, bodily resurrection, glorious ascension and redemptive return are all part of the one saving act, it's actually the cross itself that is the main effective work - it is the cross that saves, the cross that is the power of God unto salvation. We preach Christ crucified.

The resurrection validates the cross and reveals Jesus to be Lord and Christ. The resurrection happened to and for Jesus, not us; what it does do is guarantee our own resurrection and final redemption, won and paid for on the cross.

I think that the two must always be kept in balance, Mudfrog. One should never be seen without the other imv. Focus on the cross should not be greater than focus on resurrection. The latter was and is for us!

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
Hades rules the race of mortals, but not eternally;
for when You were placed in the grave, O powerful One,
You tore asunder the bars of death by Your life-creating hand
and proclaimed true deliverance to those sleeping there from the ages,
since You, Saviour, have become the first-born of the dead.
Paschal Matins

I know some may argue about such theology, as is one's right, but the above hymn says it for me; a lot is made of the destruction of Hades/Hell and Christ conquering it in the hymns for Holy Saturday/Easter Sunday with Hades/Hell/Death personified in the hymns. The power of Death is smashed through Christ's arising from the dead, and this gives me hope of my own resurrection [God willing not to condemnation]. As St Paul wrote, if Christ did not rise our faith is in vain; to me Pascha is linked to Holy Friday and they cannot be separated or balanced against each other -- His Death and Resurrection give me hope.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0