Thread: Just Fuck Yourself, Karl. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Fuck you, Karl. I know full well you will have friends here to kiss your pissy outrage away and tell you what an angel you've been and how horrible I am, but how the ever living FUCK do you get off openly wishing for my murder because you don't like my theology?

Now go on and tell me how I'm illiterate and a horrible person for getting you all wrong, because FUCK if you have any ability to take any responsibility for your hateful, self-righteous temper tantrums.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Everybody knows I am always jumping in to defend Zach82, so here I go again. Karl, you crossed a line.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Um, He did not call for your murder, he called you a child; a point this OP may well prove.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Ooops, I read that wrong. Carry on.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Um, He did not call for your murder, he called you a child; a point this OP may well prove.

No surprise here, LilBuddha is so quick to judge me he clearly didn't even fucking read Karl's post.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
But still had time to change gender...

...apart from that I'd say your sense of outrage is pretty reasonable.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Um, He did not call for your murder, he called you a child; a point this OP may well prove.

No surprise here, LilBuddha is so quick to judge me he clearly didn't even fucking read Karl's post.
I did read the post, I read it incorrectly, as you did mine.
Judge you? No, just going by past experience. But what do you know, this time you got it right. Who would have thought?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Zach, I can see how you read it that way. What I meant was you may find that your theology may make some people considerably angrier than I would be.

Apologies for overdoing the rhetoric.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Um, He did not call for your murder, he called you a child; a point this OP may well prove.

No surprise here, LilBuddha is so quick to judge me he clearly didn't even fucking read Karl's post.
I did read the post, I read it incorrectly, as you did mine.
Judge you? No, just going by past experience. But what do you know, this time you got it right. Who would have thought?

You're basically just admitting that I was entirely right about you, but you're too much of a sad little coward to admit it.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Zach, I can see how you read it that way. What I meant was you may find that your theology may make some people considerably angrier than I would be.

Apologies for overdoing the rhetoric.

On what planet does "Let's hope the ship is rid of you when you get murdered for your theology" constitute "rhetoric?"

Go to hell.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Classy. You get the viewing gallery on your side, you get an immediate apology and it's not the right apology.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Classy. You get the viewing gallery on your side, you get an immediate apology and it's not the right apology.

It's right out of your playbook, if you're honest enough to admit it.

Though I don't fool myself into thinking that you and plenty of others wouldn't be delighted to be "rid" of me. So why don't I just do you and Karl a favor and alleviate you of my presence?
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Oh FFS Zach, I really don't care as much about you as you seem to think. If I did I would have let you know when I was coming to Boston just so I could stand outside your window, making snickering noises in the middle of the night.

But I'm a Hellhost, and I see every Hell call, and getting an apology straight away is incredibly rare and I'm just commenting on the fact that you've thrown the apology straight back in the apologiser's face. Because you like being outraged. It feels good, doesn't it?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Zach, Zach, I have no desire to see people dead. I leave that to your version of God.

I observe, however, that if you were to spew your killer God theology in the wrong place, one side effect would be that you'd not be spewing it here any more. That side effect would not grieve me, even if, believe it or not, your death would.

But if you want to project and think that your enemies'd really like to see your demise, that's your prerogative.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh FFS Zach, I really don't care as much about you as you seem to think. If I did I would have let you know when I was coming to Boston just so I could stand outside your window, making snickering noises in the middle of the night.

But I'm a Hellhost, and I see every Hell call, and getting an apology straight away is incredibly rare and I'm just commenting on the fact that you've thrown the apology straight back in the apologiser's face. Because you like being outraged. It feels good, doesn't it?

Gee, I threw an obviously fake apology right back into Karl's disingenuous face. What a monster I am.

I figured how this thread would go.

[ 18. June 2014, 12:00: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
[Roll Eyes] I didn't say you were a monster, I suggested you lacked class. I would have said the same to any other moron who snatched ungracious defeat from the jaws of a hellcall victory. In the case of any other moron of that kind, I wouldn't have had to HESITATE before doing so on the grounds of knowing exactly what kind of pathetic reaction I would get.

But most other people wouldn't be that moronic in the first place. You have developed letting everyone on the Ship know how hurt and aggrieved you are into a fucking art form. A pissy, passive-aggressive art form. Woe is me, Zach The Persecuted. See how They are picking on me. Villains to be interchangeable.

I've seen limp-wristed drag queens who take their knocks in a more manly fashion than you, Zach. You basically epitomise the simulation that's been complained about in the context of soccer/football in Purgatory at the moment. You are the Ship's equivalent of a striker who goes down in the penalty area rather than get up and chase the ball. You are a pathetic, whining weasel who just got a legitimate free kick in your favour, and an opponent apologising and offering to help you up, but you weren't done with writhing on the ground.

You are the Ship's Master Sulker. I mean, look at it. You decide to join me in with Karl with a "maybe I should be gone, you'd be happy then". What, are you implying I'd like to see you murdered, too? WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GET THAT FROM?

I'll tell you what I'd like Zach. I'd like you to accept an apology when it's offered. I'd like you to be gracious once in a while. I'd like you to not spend several FUCKING days explaining in hurt tones why I should accept how excellent your advice on German grammar is even though I've explained over and over again that I wasn't looking for advice on German grammar, and then bringing it up again weeks later in a totally different conversation just to remind me that you were hurt by it all. I'd like you to stop telling everyone, all the fucking time, just how painful your Ship experience is in the hope that we'll all make sympathetic cooing noises and buy you a chocolate ice cream.

[ 18. June 2014, 12:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
Go fuck yourself Zach82. I'll take Karl's theology over your theology any day of the week, especially Sunday.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
See, orfeo, this is an example of why I shouldn't even bother. All I wanted you to understand was that I wasn't trying to insult you, I was only trying to start a conversation, and I never for a second though I was offering particularly brilliant insights for your edification.

You accuse ME of nursing outrage? PUH-leeze.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
See, orfeo, this is an example of why I shouldn't even bother.

QED
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
See, orfeo, this is an example of why I shouldn't even bother.

QED
Yes. Your inability to admit even the faintest possibility that I was trying to engage you with sincerity proves why I shouldn't even bother. I assure you it's only out of habit that I continue doing so.

[ 18. June 2014, 12:34: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
And Karl, before I rush off to work, I suppose if I don't accept your apology, I would be failing to admit the obvious fact that the ship would gladly be rid of me. I shouldn't blame you for merely stating that in a way that, inadvertently I am sure, implied that my death you achieve that. I am sorry for throwing your apology back in your face.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
See, orfeo, this is an example of why I shouldn't even bother.

QED
Yes. Your inability to admit even the faintest possibility that I was trying to engage you with sincerity proves why I shouldn't even bother. I assure you it's only out of habit that I continue doing so.
...are we still talking about German again? Oh for heaven's sake. Your sincerity wasn't the issue. Your inability to grasp that I wasn't interested in the topic you raised was the issue. It still is, apparently. Because you've only missed the point about 15 times now.

LET IT GO. The only reason I even remember the German conversation is because you brought it up again on a totally different thread in a totally different context.

Over and over again, how bad orfeo is, how misunderstood Zach is. Zach wants one of the Ship's mothers to cuddle him and bring his teddy and kiss it better, because that orfeo boy is a big meany who didn't want to play German conjugation. Over and over and over and over until someone acknowledges what a good little boy you are.

You misunderstood what I was driving at with the German thing. DEAL WITH IT.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
And Karl, before I rush off to work, I suppose if I don't accept your apology, I would be failing to admit the obvious fact that the ship would gladly be rid of me. I shouldn't blame you for merely stating that in a way that, inadvertently I am sure, implied that my death you achieve that. I am sorry for throwing your apology back in your face.

Why don't you just quote the poem?

Nobody likes me, everybody hates me...

This is precisely the snivelling I'm talking about!
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
I might have hurts feeling over it, but it's also just an objective reality if there ever is one. If I can't converse with you or indeed the general ship about German grammar, then I probably can't converse with you or the ship about anything.

It seems to me that your temper tantrums about me merely saying so only proves the point that you are trying to strenuously to disprove. I am not welcome here, and don't worry because I know I am more than a little responsible for that.

[ 18. June 2014, 12:48: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Zach, I can see how you read it that way. What I meant was you may find that your theology may make some people considerably angrier than I would be.

Apologies for overdoing the rhetoric.

On what planet does "Let's hope the ship is rid of you when you get murdered for your theology" constitute "rhetoric?"

Go to hell.

Karl overdid the rhetoric, for sure. He apologised for that.

Accept it and move on.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I might have hurts feeling over it, but it's also just an objective reality if there ever is one. If I can't converse with you or indeed the general ship about German grammar, then I probably can't converse with you or the ship about anything.

As I recall, it was on the TICTH thread. You're not supposed to be conversing with me, or anyone else for that matter, about anything on that thread. That was one of the sources of irritation. If I'd wanted a conversation about it I would have posted it somewhere else.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
... I am not welcome here, and don't worry because I know I am more than a little responsible for that.

Well, that's just plain silly. if you yourself say you're "more than a little responsible", what exactly are you complaining about? That Karl overreacted to your jackholery?
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Zach, what exactly is your problem? As far as I see it, the following chain of events occurred:

1. Karl overstepped the mark in being too strong with the rhetoric in a way that could be construed as wishing your death.

2. You - rightly - complained.

3. Karl - rightly - apologised

4. Hell thread's job done.

So why is this still going on? You apparently don't accept his apology - what do you want him to do: paint his arse blue and crawl naked from Chesterfield to London?
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
Never before have I known defeat to be snatched from the jaws of victory with such vigour. It could be a case study.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh FFS Zach, I really don't care as much about you as you seem to think.

I think this is the heart of the problem. At least negative attention is attention.
 
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What do you want him to do: paint his arse blue and crawl naked from Chesterfield to London?

Sounds like quite a good Ship's fundraiser to me. I'd pay good money for it [Biased] .
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What do you want him to do: paint his arse blue and crawl naked from Chesterfield to London?

Sounds like quite a good Ship's fundraiser to me. I'd pay good money for it [Biased] .
You've not seen my arse. We'd have to hand out peril-sensitive sunglasses as per Hitch-Hikers Guide...
 
Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
I think they're both a pair of twats to be honest but I didn't think Karl's post was inciting murder on Zachybobs. I think he was pointing out - quite reasonably - that if Zachybobs said "God did it" to a bereaved parent, the said parent would most likely put Zachybobs in hospital for a good long bout of treatment.

But Zachybob decided to get all flouncy. I put it down to teenage hormones. My lad is going all "kevin" at the moment. They grow out of it later on apparently.

But still... both twats.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I think they're both a pair of twats to be honest

Yeah, love you too Deanybabes!
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But Zachybob decided to get all flouncy. I put it down to teenage hormones. My lad is going all "kevin" at the moment. They grow out of it later on apparently.

Oi! Using my name as a byword for teenage angst - it's so unfair, I hate you.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Twats and painted arses. Does it get any better than this? Bring out the beer!
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But Zachybob decided to get all flouncy. I put it down to teenage hormones. My lad is going all "kevin" at the moment. They grow out of it later on apparently.

Oi! Using my name as a byword for teenage angst - it's so unfair, I hate you.
We just don't understand you and we're ruining your life!
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I didn't think Karl's post was inciting murder on Zachybobs. I think he was pointing out - quite reasonably - that if Zachybobs said "God did it" to a bereaved parent, the said parent would most likely put Zachybobs in hospital for a good long bout of treatment.

On this very rare occasion, I agree with you.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I didn't think Karl's post was inciting murder on Zachybobs. I think he was pointing out - quite reasonably - that if Zachybobs said "God did it" to a bereaved parent, the said parent would most likely put Zachybobs in hospital for a good long bout of treatment.

On this very rare occasion, I agree with you.
Me, too. A diabolical miracle! [Devil]
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
<looks nervously out of window for further signs of the Apocalypse>
 
Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I didn't think Karl's post was inciting murder on Zachybobs. I think he was pointing out - quite reasonably - that if Zachybobs said "God did it" to a bereaved parent, the said parent would most likely put Zachybobs in hospital for a good long bout of treatment.

On this very rare occasion, I agree with you.
Me, too. A diabolical miracle! [Devil]
Yeah, me too, three, four. And Zach doing the classic Zach thing of wildly exaggerating and maybe slightly twisting what someone has said ("You called my argument stupid, so that means you think everyone who ever disagrees with you about anything is an idiot") and getting outraged about it. And then claiming not to understand the point abut rhetoric. Wow.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
In the olden days, people used to kill each other when they disagreed about images of God.

Now they just swear at each other.

Viva le Progress.
 
Posted by Russ (# 120) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
tell me how I'm illiterate and a horrible person for getting you all wrong, because FUCK if you have any ability to take any responsibility for your hateful, self-righteous temper tantrums.

You're not illiterate.

I don't know whether you're a horrible person in real life, but if all the posters on the Ship were ranked in terms of apparent niceness I'd wager a fiver on you coming in the bottom 20%.

Karl's words didn't wish for your murder, but did wish for your absence from here. He went too far - had he merely wished for an absence of your bad attitude it would have been an unremarkable commonplace observation. He took responsibility for his mistake and apologised.

His original observation had a serious point about points of view being tempered by real life experience. You seem to be reducing everything to the merely personal. Taking all the umbrage you can get is not a good habit.

It's not his attitude that needs a little work - it's yours.

Stick around; keep working on it.

I don't often do Hell, so I may be out of practice...

Best wishes,

Russ
 
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I didn't think Karl's post was inciting murder on Zachybobs. I think he was pointing out - quite reasonably - that if Zachybobs said "God did it" to a bereaved parent, the said parent would most likely put Zachybobs in hospital for a good long bout of treatment.

On this very rare occasion, I agree with you.
Me, too. A diabolical miracle! [Devil]
FWIW

I don't think Karl overstepped that much. It was a little rash, maybe, but he made a very valid point.

Zach has just acted like a big baby. He should go and sit on the naughty stair for a while and calm down.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
paint his arse blue and crawl naked from Chesterfield to London
Am I an ignorant internet poster who is missing some Jerusalem-to-Athens significance to this? maps.google tells me its about a 50-hour walk. It doesn't have an estimate for crawling.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I live in Chesterfield. I think that's the point.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Karl wants to talk about pastoral support for the bereaved? Let's talk about it then.

No, I wouldn't tell grieving parents that God killed their children. Actually, I have talked to people who were losing children, and lots of other people coping with tragedy, and I have found that they get angry at God all on their own. Actually, I have coped with death in my own family and felt these feelings for myself.

What they need is to have their feelings heard and validated so that they can begin to move on. And see here, there are passages of Scripture where people feel these very real feelings without trying to explain them away, which Karl thinks he's just a saint for questioning.

No, grieving people don't need to be told "God did it." But what they don't need even less are simplistic attempts to absolve God of any responsibility for his creation with facile excuses from people whose faith is too timid to cope with difficult theological questions.

So that is why I think Karl is being a pompous shit, and why I don't think a half apology for being "a little to rhetorical" cuts the mustard.

It's already clear that I will NEVER get a fair hearing from people like orfeo or lilBuddha, so it's entirely my fault for trying to get them to see how generally shitty they are to me.

[ 18. June 2014, 21:45: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Congratulations, lilBuddha. Personally I thought my record for unfairness, irrational irascibility and general intolerance could never be matched, but apparently you've done it.

The amount of angry yelling in bold and caps lock you have to do is worth it though, don't you think? Just for the mental image of Zach crying inconsolably over his cornflakes. I know that's what keeps me coming back to the Ship, day after day, the chance to be a bully to dear old Zach.

I know it wasn't me who got Karl to say those mean nasty things, so tell me: was it you? Bloody brilliant plan, that was!

Would you be interested in a job-share as Hellhost? I could do with the occasional break, to be honest. There's only so much nasty capriciousness in me before I need to take a break, recharge my batteries. I like to get some exercise in by heading down to the park and running off with the frisbees of the local kids. You can't spend ALL your time on the internet.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
No, Zach, I do not consider myself a saint for questioning anything, just a human being. And it's not passages where people feel anger with God that I question. It's passages where God apparently gives incredibly good reasons for being angry with him. Or just ignoring him.

This comes not from avoiding these sorts of emotions, as you bizarrely seem to think, but by thinking they through and, after decades, still being unable to reconcile them with the simple statement that "God is Love". Which is sort of foundational to the faith. Now, you may be able to reconcile "God is love" with "God kills babies", and if so more power to your elbow, but I'll not take your insults because I cannot do so, any more than I can see blue and tell myself it's yellow. It's a thing called honesty. And you know what's really, really ironic about you accusing me of avoiding emotions? Other people defending exactly the same sort of "monstrous God" theologies have accused me of "appeals to emotion". Which is it? Am I too swayed be emotion, or do I just avoid it?

Like you, I've seen death. And I've seen people's reactions to it. I've seen people moved to incandescent anger (and I don't blame them) by suggestions that it's "God's will". I've seen people destroyed by grief, so utterly destroyed that any suggestion that it's "God's will" similarly moves me to incandescent anger.

Because of emotion.

So I'm glad you wouldn't go around a mortuary spouting your "God kills babies" theology. But I ask you - what use is this theology if in the moments of crisis, when people might ask "where is God in this", your answer is by your own admission as much use as a cheese screwdriver? My position, such as it is, comes not from avoiding these deep theological questions, but agonising over them for decades. Which I still do.

[ 18. June 2014, 22:20: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Oh, and Zach? Well done on seeing how determined I was not to give you a fair hearing. What gave it away? Was it when I said:

quote:
I'd say your sense of outrage is pretty reasonable
?
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh, and Zach? Well done on seeing how determined I was not to give you a fair hearing. What gave it away? Was it when I said:

quote:
I'd say your sense of outrage is pretty reasonable
?
It was how quick you were to go back to your usual explorations of my character for not finding Karl's apology to really cover what he said to me. It fits your general pattern with me in the last year or so. You or lilBuddha or Karl will say something nasty to me with little provocation, and when I sling it right back in your face it only serves to confirm the initial nasty comment.

I only win if I stop bothering. Lord knows limiting myself to less passionate subjects like gawddamn grammar isn't going to do it. But after over a decade on the ship, it's kind of a habit to log on.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So I'm glad you wouldn't go around a mortuary spouting your "God kills babies" theology. But I ask you - what use is this theology if in the moments of crisis, when people might ask "where is God in this", your answer is by your own admission as much use as a cheese screwdriver? My position, such as it is, comes not from avoiding these deep theological questions, but agonising over them for decades. Which I still do.

It actually is a great consolation to me, at any rate, that there is Providence in the pain of this life. It makes me feel better to think that my father dropped dead, entirely out of the blue, because an infinitely good God decreed it would be so.

But even if that is true, sometimes it takes a lot of work and pastoral support to get there. The realization of providence is the goal, and not always the balm, for grief.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So I'm glad you wouldn't go around a mortuary spouting your "God kills babies" theology. But I ask you - what use is this theology if in the moments of crisis, when people might ask "where is God in this", your answer is by your own admission as much use as a cheese screwdriver? My position, such as it is, comes not from avoiding these deep theological questions, but agonising over them for decades. Which I still do.

It actually is a great consolation to me, at any rate, that there is Providence in the pain of this life. It makes me feel better to think that my father dropped dead, entirely out of the blue, because an infinitely good God decreed it would be so.

Well bully for you. Meanwhile, I've seen a man destroyed because his father died weeks before retirement, his dreams of a well earned few years shattered, his widow's marbles severely scattered. I really, really don't want to have much to do with the divine providence that ordained that fuck up. I wonder, perhaps, if the bloke who's just been put away for kicking his daughter across the room, rupturing her spleen and killing her, can get some comfort from the thought that God ordained her to die then?

This theology of yours raises more questions than it answers.
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
No, grieving people don't need to be told "God did it." But what they don't need even less are simplistic attempts to absolve God of any responsibility for his creation with facile excuses from people whose faith is too timid to cope with difficult theological questions.

I think this is completely off the mark and unfair, sorry. Karl's faith is not too timid, yours is. Too timid to step into the uncertainty beyond the cognitive dissonance of trying to hold 'God is love' and 'God directly wills the suffering, abuse and death of babies' in your head at the same time.

Timidly hiding behind the excuse that 'God's ways are above our ways', which ISTM you think lets us off the hook from even trying to reconcile such obvious contradictions.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So I'm glad you wouldn't go around a mortuary spouting your "God kills babies" theology. But I ask you - what use is this theology if in the moments of crisis, when people might ask "where is God in this", your answer is by your own admission as much use as a cheese screwdriver? My position, such as it is, comes not from avoiding these deep theological questions, but agonising over them for decades. Which I still do.

It actually is a great consolation to me, at any rate, that there is Providence in the pain of this life. It makes me feel better to think that my father dropped dead, entirely out of the blue, because an infinitely good God decreed it would be so.

Well bully for you. Meanwhile, I've seen a man destroyed because his father died weeks before retirement, his dreams of a well earned few years shattered, his widow's marbles severely scattered. I really, really don't want to have much to do with the divine providence that ordained that fuck up. I wonder, perhaps, if the bloke who's just been put away for kicking his daughter across the room, rupturing her spleen and killing her, can get some comfort from the thought that God ordained her to die then?

This theology of yours raises more questions than it answers.

I don't think tragedy needs to be explained with facile theology, and I know grieving people don't need it.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
There's your problem though - your theology's mature and thought out, mine's facile.

But from where I'm sitting, your theology looks facile. Simplistic. Refusing to acknowledge the issues it generates. It's all a matter of perspective.

Your theology is "God does it". Mine is "Shit happens". Why is mine so much more facile than yours?
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
No, grieving people don't need to be told "God did it." But what they don't need even less are simplistic attempts to absolve God of any responsibility for his creation with facile excuses from people whose faith is too timid to cope with difficult theological questions.

I think this is completely off the mark and unfair, sorry. Karl's faith is not too timid, yours is. Too timid to step into the uncertainty beyond the cognitive dissonance of trying to hold 'God is love' and 'God directly wills the suffering, abuse and death of babies' in your head at the same time.

Timidly hiding behind the excuse that 'God's ways are above our ways', which ISTM you think lets us off the hook from even trying to reconcile such obvious contradictions.

How does refusing to accept easy answers about God's Providence in light of tragedy involve timidity? That isn't "a step into uncertainty" in any fashion.

Oh well, you are sure to have plenty of people here to tell you how right you are and who wrong and mean I am.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Ha! As if any of my answers are easy. They're not. From where I stand, "God did it, but it'll be all right in the end" looks like a trite easy answer. I've seen too many situations where that's obviously bullshit. No, accepting that shit happens and there's no reason for it, except this is a real world and sometimes you roll a 1 on the cosmic d20 is hard - you've said yourself how divine providence in the crap gives you comfort - so how is saying "don't fool yourself - shit sometimes just happens and there's no good comes of it" an easy answer?
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh, and Zach? Well done on seeing how determined I was not to give you a fair hearing. What gave it away? Was it when I said:

quote:
I'd say your sense of outrage is pretty reasonable
?
It was how quick you were to go back to your usual explorations of my character for not finding Karl's apology to really cover what he said to me. It fits your general pattern with me in the last year or so. You or lilBuddha or Karl will say something nasty to me with little provocation, and when I sling it right back in your face it only serves to confirm the initial nasty comment.

I only win if I stop bothering. Lord knows limiting myself to less passionate subjects like gawddamn grammar isn't going to do it. But after over a decade on the ship, it's kind of a habit to log on.

Excellent. So that explains 3 of us. Now you just have to explain all the other people who've turned up in the thread to express their disbelief that you didn't accept the apology.

EDIT: Would you like a list, or can you back and find them all yourself? You haven't shown any indication that you've noticed. All your energy has been spent on the big meanies.

SECOND EDIT: Meanwhile, other posters were noticing signs of the Apocalypse.

[ 18. June 2014, 22:49: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There's your problem though - your theology's mature and thought out, mine's facile.

But from where I'm sitting, your theology looks facile. Simplistic. Refusing to acknowledge the issues it generates. It's all a matter of perspective.

Your theology is "God does it". Mine is "Shit happens". Why is mine so much more facile than yours?

Yes, the questions in my theology are still difficult and unanswered, just as tragedy will tend to be.

You have your answers. "It happens, God didn't do it!" And SCK is silly enough to call that "uncertainty!"
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
How does refusing to accept easy answers about God's Providence in light of tragedy involve timidity?

You said 'The realization of providence is the goal, and not always the balm, for grief'. Which 'easy answers about God's Providence' are you refusing to accept? It seems to me you are saying that essentially we have to suck it up if God's providence seems unfair or unreasonable.

That's timid, IMO - ignoring the cognitive dissonance by saying that we have to just accept God's providence, never mind how baffling and plain unloving it seems.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
How does refusing to accept easy answers about God's Providence in light of tragedy involve timidity?

You said 'The realization of providence is the goal, and not always the balm, for grief'. Which 'easy answers about God's Providence' are you refusing to accept? It seems to me you are saying that essentially we have to suck it up if God's providence seems unfair or unreasonable.

That's timid, IMO - ignoring the cognitive dissonance by saying that we have to just accept God's providence, never mind how baffling and plain unloving it seems.

Jeeze. First I need to "step into uncertainty" and accept Karl's answers, now my answers paint a "baffling" picture of God. Which is it, am I baffling or facile?
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh, and Zach? Well done on seeing how determined I was not to give you a fair hearing. What gave it away? Was it when I said:

quote:
I'd say your sense of outrage is pretty reasonable
?
It was how quick you were to go back to your usual explorations of my character for not finding Karl's apology to really cover what he said to me. It fits your general pattern with me in the last year or so. You or lilBuddha or Karl will say something nasty to me with little provocation, and when I sling it right back in your face it only serves to confirm the initial nasty comment.

I only win if I stop bothering. Lord knows limiting myself to less passionate subjects like gawddamn grammar isn't going to do it. But after over a decade on the ship, it's kind of a habit to log on.

Excellent. So that explains 3 of us. Now you just have to explain all the other people who've turned up in the thread to express their disbelief that you didn't accept the apology.

EDIT: Would you like a list, or can you back and find them all yourself? You haven't shown any indication that you've noticed. All your energy has been spent on the big meanies.

SECOND EDIT: Meanwhile, other posters were noticing signs of the Apocalypse.

I would imagine that it looks like I am overreacting to people who haven't been coping with your hateful shit for months.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Hold it!

That's fifteen posts in less than one hour.

How the hell do you guys read and comprehend recent posts before posting? I'll tell you how: you don't. Now calm down or I'll close this thread for speeding.

SS/HH
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There's your problem though - your theology's mature and thought out, mine's facile.

But from where I'm sitting, your theology looks facile. Simplistic. Refusing to acknowledge the issues it generates. It's all a matter of perspective.

Your theology is "God does it". Mine is "Shit happens". Why is mine so much more facile than yours?

Yes, the questions in my theology are still difficult and unanswered, just as tragedy will tend to be.

You have your answers. "It happens, God didn't do it!" And SCK is silly enough to call that "uncertainty!"

Oh if only they were final answers. Of course they're not. They force all sorts of explorations. God, as you yourself have pointed out, nevertheless permits these things to occur. Why? He seems to permit everything really; if I go out with a machine gun and start mowing people down in the street, I can be fairly sure that armies of angels won't appear to stop me, or the bullets. God has clearly created a world where what we do is real and has real consequences; as real as if he weren't there, it seems. Why do that? I don't know.

But that's a philosophical question I can wrestle with. I'm not sure where I can go with the question "why did God kill a man of 64, just before his retirement? Did he really hate this man's son and wife so much as to do what he did to them?"

As I've said, it's possible you're right about all this stuff (although I really, really hope not). And if so, then God, and God alone, can change my mental furniture to enable me to accept that. He seems to prefer not to; he seems to prefer to leave in place a sort of spiritual gag reflex to suggestions that he can be a bit of a bastard. There's another question - why does he do that, if he is? Or I suppose that could be the reason - because he's a bit of a bastard sometimes he's enjoying fucking with my emotions and my faith, such as it is. And you yourself have said how weak that is.

And so I'm back, really, to the theology of my brother in law, which is usually expressed as "who knows, eh?". I suppose one thing that separates us is the degree to which you think the answer to that question is "Zach".
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
I know you don't owe me any favors, Sioni, but it would be nice if you would just close it. I might as well call it quits, and it's not like there is a general lack of opportunity to examine my faults as a person and theologian.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I know you don't owe me any favors, Sioni, but it would be nice if you would just close it. I might as well call it quits, and it's not like there is a general lack of opportunity to examine my faults as a person and theologian.

I'm not closing it for that reason. Hellhosts get busted down to Apprentice for being 'nice' to Shipmates, especially callers and callees.

SS/HH
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zach82:
[qb] Oh if only they were final answers. Of course they're not. They force all sorts of explorations. God, as you yourself have pointed out, nevertheless permits these things to occur. Why? He seems to permit everything really; if I go out with a machine gun and start mowing people down in the street, I can be fairly sure that armies of angels won't appear to stop me, or the bullets. God has clearly created a world where what we do is real and has real consequences; as real as if he weren't there, it seems. Why do that? I don't know.

But that's a philosophical question I can wrestle with. I'm not sure where I can go with the question "why did God kill a man of 64, just before his retirement? Did he really hate this man's son and wife so much as to do what he did to them?"

As I've said, it's possible you're right about all this stuff (although I really, really hope not). And if so, then God, and God alone, can change my mental furniture to enable me to accept that. He seems to prefer not to; he seems to prefer to leave in place a sort of spiritual gag reflex to suggestions that he can be a bit of a bastard. There's another question - why does he do that, if he is? Or I suppose that could be the reason - because he's a bit of a bastard sometimes he's enjoying fucking with my emotions and my faith, such as it is. And you yourself have said how weak that is.

And so I'm back, really, to the theology of my brother in law, which is usually expressed as "who knows, eh?". I suppose one thing that separates us is the degree to which you think the answer to that question is "Zach".

Where have I claimed to know why God wills tragedy? I haven't said it and I don't know why God would.

Half our arguments could be avoided if you would stop projecting all the theology you hate on me.

[ 18. June 2014, 23:06: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
A lot could be avoided if you'd grasp nuance and the concept of degree rather than all or nothingness.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I would imagine that it looks like I am overreacting to people who haven't been coping with your hateful shit for months.

I'm not the person whose apology you didn't accept.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
A lot could be avoided if you'd grasp nuance and the concept of degree rather than all or nothingness.

So... are you admitting to a degree to which your crap here is predicated on theology that I haven't said and don't believe?
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I would imagine that it looks like I am overreacting to people who haven't been coping with your hateful shit for months.

I'm not the person whose apology you didn't accept.
Which of course didn't prevent you from getting personally offended about the whole affair when I didn't.

[ 18. June 2014, 23:32: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I would imagine that it looks like I am overreacting to people who haven't been coping with your hateful shit for months.

I'm not the person whose apology you didn't accept.
Which of course didn't prevent you from getting personally offended about the whole affair when I didn't.
Wait. What? You didn't get offended? Then why did you say:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
On what planet does "Let's hope the ship is rid of you when you get murdered for your theology" constitute "rhetoric?"

Go to hell.

That sure as heck looks like being offended to me. FFS, Zach. Drop the histrionics. Karl crossed a line. You called him on it. He apologized. Let it go, man. Have some class and some grace.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
...are we still talking about German again? <snip> LET IT GO.

Be fair, orfeo. You brought it up; it doesn't make any sense for you to bring something up and then rail against somebody for responding to your bringing it up.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Wait. What? You didn't get offended? Then why did you say:
...personally offended when I didn't accept Karl's apology.

And, God help me, I just can't see him as being sincerely apologetic because it's just another instance of how he's been treating me for a while now. He didn't "get a little over rhetorical" with me. He was a fucking jerk to me.

Maybe that is petulant of me. I can't help it at this point.

[ 19. June 2014, 01:29: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe that is petulant of me. I can't help it at this point.

Then get help.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe that is petulant of me. I can't help it at this point.

Then get help.
Get help for having my feelings hurt when someone lashes out at me for no gawddamn reason, then makes up an elaborate scenario when I follow grieving parents around announcing God's malice to them just to be a pompous shit?

Do you really believe that "just getting a bit over rhetorical?" Really? My God, if that really is what constitutes "overdoing the rhetoric" around here, I really am on the wrong forum.

[ 19. June 2014, 02:05: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

Maybe that is petulant of me. I can't help it at this point.

Wait, I misread Karl's quote, then immediately correct the mistake. Well, not immediately. It did take 4 seconds to reread, process and re-post.
And I even said you were right.
Yet, I'm the baddy. Well, orfeo and I.

Hey orfeo, does that make us a team? We shall have to have a clever name. I draw the line at matching clothing, though.
Oh, wait, I forgot Karl, or is he merely a sidekick?
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

Maybe that is petulant of me. I can't help it at this point.

Wait, I misread Karl's quote, then immediately correct the mistake. Well, not immediately. It did take 4 seconds to reread, process and re-post.
And I even said you were right.
Yet, I'm the baddy. Well, orfeo and I.

Hey orfeo, does that make us a team? We shall have to have a clever name. I draw the line at matching clothing, though.
Oh, wait, I forgot Karl, or is he merely a sidekick?

You apologized to not reading Karl's post very closely. You frankly admitted, without apology, that you couldn't be bothered to read before judging me. Which is quite a pile of shit thing to do, but it's becoming apparent that no one else thinks so.

Of course, I am obviously just a brat for expecting that sincere apologies get to the point of the actual wrong doing instead of weaseling out on lesser offenses.

Edit: wait, just reread your post. You never apologized for not really reading Karl's post closely.

[ 19. June 2014, 02:15: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
WhooooEEE! What's that smell?

Why, if it isn't a giant metric fuck-tonne of whiny bullshit.

Hi Zach!
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

Edit: wait, just reread your post. You never apologized for not really reading Karl's post closely.

You are correct. My apologies Karl.
Oh, wait, you mean apolgise to you.
I called you a child. An characterisation you have proven correct multiple times on this very thread. Not to mention over many of your other posts on this forum.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Why the fuck should I care what your judgments are, lilBuddha? You judge me before even looking at the facts of the matters, as you fully admit.
 
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I really am on the wrong forum.

Not necessarily, but you may be managing Hell incorrectly. It's really not a good place to be communicating seriously about your ongoing hurt feelings. Some better Hell strategies might be to shoot back ("Thanks, Karl, but you're still a cunt*"); to sidestep to another issue (which almost happened with orfeo and the German thing - could have been a good lateral move); to deflect using humour.

This is an unsympathetic locker room. If you continue to complain about your hurt, especially after another player has apologized, you will find the responses... umm... unsatisfactory, and generally along the lines of "Toughen up or shut up."

I have no idea whether this may be helpful to you or not, but it's one way in which I experience this board.

*(not my actual opinion of Karl)
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
The most humorous thing, Leaf, is that he claims Hell is is favourite board.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The most humorous thing, Leaf, is that he claims Hell is is favourite board.

It used to be a place where actual debate happened, like a decade ago when I posted that.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I draw the line at matching clothing, though.

Dammit.

*Throws away piece of paper with 'The Evil Twins' scrawled on it.*
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe that is petulant of me. I can't help it at this point.

Then get help.
Get help for having my feelings hurt when someone lashes out at me for no gawddamn reason, then makes up an elaborate scenario when I follow grieving parents around announcing God's malice to them just to be a pompous shit?
No, get help to not post about it.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The most humorous thing, Leaf, is that he claims Hell is is favourite board.

It used to be a place where actual debate happened, like a decade ago when I posted that.
It does still. In fact, the Hell hosts whinge a bit if that is all that is going on. It is that your asbestos nappies appear to be wearing thin.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Jesus Christ, I am so badly off around here that I can't even get people to admit, when it's happening to the like of me, that Karl's behavior was, simply objectively, rather more than "overdoing the rhetoric."
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Hell has a variety of purposes.

I get bored with all of them quite easily.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Jesus Christ, I am so badly off around here that I can't even get people to admit, when it's happening to the like of me, that Karl's behavior was, simply objectively, rather more than "overdoing the rhetoric."

What was it, then? You haven't said, as far as I can recall. You've only said what it wasn't.

I have to confess to not knowing what definition of 'rhetoric' you're using that takes Karl's remarks outside of it.

Having just grabbed the nearest dictionary, there were a variety of definitions. One of them was "the use of exaggeration or display in speech or writing". That seemed reasonably apt to me (in my biased, unfair state of mind of course).

[ 19. June 2014, 03:18: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
[qb] Jesus Christ, I am so badly off around here that I can't even get people to admit, when it's happening to the like of me, that Karl's behavior was, simply objectively, rather more than "overdoing the rhetoric."

What was it, then? You haven't said, as far as I can recall. You've only said what it wasn't.[QB]
I actually have. Have you not really been reading what's going on too?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Have you not really been reading what's going on too?

Oooh! I have! I have!

Histrionics.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Jesus Christ, I am so badly off around here

Have you considered why?
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Jesus Christ, I am so badly off around here

Have you considered why?
I have, though it's become really obvious that there is nothing to be done to fix it. As you have gone out of your way to prove, I don't even have to do anything wrong to get the likes of you on my case.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I actually have. Have you not really been reading what's going on too?

I freely confess to not reading every post word for word, and I certainly don't memorise them.

If you're trying to say that "openly wishing for murder" can't possibly fall within the definition of "rhetoric", I simply don't agree with you. A statement can fall into both of those categories at once quite comfortably. It might be extreme rhetoric, but extreme rhetoric is still rhetoric. Ill-advised rhetoric is still rhetoric.

It's speech. In the absence of any evidence that Karl devised a plan for your actual advise, it's exaggerated speech, which is, as I've just mentioned, one of the definitions of 'rhetoric'.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I actually have. Have you not really been reading what's going on too?

I freely confess to not reading every post word for word, and I certainly don't memorise them.

If you're trying to say that "openly wishing for murder" can't possibly fall within the definition of "rhetoric", I simply don't agree with you. A statement can fall into both of those categories at once quite comfortably. It might be extreme rhetoric, but extreme rhetoric is still rhetoric. Ill-advised rhetoric is still rhetoric.

It's speech. In the absence of any evidence that Karl devised a plan for your actual advise, it's exaggerated speech, which is, as I've just mentioned, one of the definitions of 'rhetoric'.

Just to get you up to speed, what I am accusing Karl of is lashing out against me for no good reason, and then going on to make up a ridiculous, profoundly vicious scenario of me following grieving parents around and pushing on them the malice of God.

That is what I call "being a huge jerk," and which I classify as more than rhetoric. Especially since it's come out that it's all been predicated on Karl's personal theological issues and not on what I actually said.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
*shrug* Dumb and jerkish rhetoric is still rhetoric.

You're welcome to keep pursuing him until he utters the correct adjectives, but I expect you will continue to receive commentary from various Shipmates who are NOT members of the Duopoly of Evil suggesting that you haven't chosen the wisest course.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
As you have gone out of your way to prove, I don't even have to do anything wrong to get the likes of you on my case.

First, I was not on your case. I thought Karl had called you a child. I fixed that in 4(four, IV, ....) seconds and backed off. Until you began simpering. You. You directly invited most of the comments against you on this thread.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Ooo, Duopoly of Evil™ I like it!
OK, I am softening on the clothing, we can get matching capes. But they have to be black and incorporate skulls.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
As you have gone out of your way to prove, I don't even have to do anything wrong to get the likes of you on my case.

First, I was not on your case. I thought Karl had called you a child. I fixed that in 4(four, IV, ....) seconds and backed off. Until you began simpering. You. You directly invited most of the comments against you on this thread.
It was four minutes, which was enough time for me to cross post you saying only exactly what you did. Which constitutes "simpering?" For the mere sin of accusing you of doing what you now admit to doing, I brought all your indignation on my self?

Jeeze, are you trying to disprove my assertion that this situation is beyond fixing now?
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
*shrug* Dumb and jerkish rhetoric is still rhetoric.

You're welcome to keep pursuing him until he utters the correct adjectives, but I expect you will continue to receive commentary from various Shipmates who are NOT members of the Duopoly of Evil suggesting that you haven't chosen the wisest course.

I suppose this is a lot better than what you were pitching earlier. I might as well quit when I'm as ahead as I'm going to be.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It was four minutes,

Oops, you are right. 4 minutes. Point remains, I reread and clarified

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

which was enough time for me to cross post you saying only exactly what you did.

Not even close.
This
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Ooops, I read that wrong. Carry on.

=/=

this.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
clearly didn't even fucking read Karl's post.

What institution allowed you to make it to graduate student? Hamburger University?
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Yes. At Hamburger University we learned that reading a passage so that you don't understand even the basic gist of what's written is functionally the same as not reading it at all. In that philosophy, I indeed only stated the facts of the matter.
quote:
What institution allowed you to make it to graduate student? Hamburger University?
Your contempt of people who work for a living is duly noted.

[ 19. June 2014, 04:46: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
reading a passage so that you don't understand even the basic gist of what's written is functionally the same as not reading it at all.

No, no it isn't. But whatever.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
What institution allowed you to make it to graduate student? Hamburger University?
Your contempt of people who work for a living is duly noted.
I have no contempt for people who work for a living. I have no contempt for the the graduates of Hamburger University. I think, in calling their training programme a University, they are denigrating its students. In the same way calling a janitor a facilities engineer does. It implies the actual job is unworthy so a title must obscure it. I've made this point more than once on this website.
In insulting you, I have inadvertently insulted people who do not deserve it. To them, and all working-class people, I apologise.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I might as well quit when I'm as ahead as I'm going to be.

Yes, please do! You will never get any aheader than you are now, and you're getting less and less ahead with every word you post. Time to cut and run.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
No, no it isn't. But whatever.
What is the difference then? You are really stupid enough to think "Hey, I read it, I just didn't bother to read it closely enough to actually understand what was happening before posting!" paints you in such a better light?

You really are giving me an ever more intimate understanding of your judgments.

[ 19. June 2014, 05:11: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

You really are giving me an ever more intimate understanding of your judgments.

You've yet to display an intimate understanding of much of anything. Especially not on this thread. You'd rather pick nits and whine about persecution.
Had I misread and left it at that, you might have a point.
But your inability to see things in context and in other than an extremely narrow, self-centered manner is kinda why there is no one defending you here. Even those who agree you had a point in bringing the OP.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
I am feeling more and more gratitude to you, orfeo, for just coming to the point "Karl was a jerk, you'll have to get over it if you don't believe his apology." I really mean that.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
*shrug* Dumb and jerkish rhetoric is still rhetoric.

You're welcome to keep pursuing him until he utters the correct adjectives, but I expect you will continue to receive commentary from various Shipmates who are NOT members of the Duopoly of Evil suggesting that you haven't chosen the wisest course.

I suppose this is a lot better than what you were pitching earlier. I might as well quit when I'm as ahead as I'm going to be.
What I was pitching earlier was that it was legitimate for you to be outraged by what Karl had said.

You actually started this thread with people on your side. Big, mean people.

This was apparently such an awful state of affairs that you then proceeded to do your utmost to rectify it.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I actually have. Have you not really been reading what's going on too?

I freely confess to not reading every post word for word, and I certainly don't memorise them.

If you're trying to say that "openly wishing for murder" can't possibly fall within the definition of "rhetoric", I simply don't agree with you. A statement can fall into both of those categories at once quite comfortably. It might be extreme rhetoric, but extreme rhetoric is still rhetoric. Ill-advised rhetoric is still rhetoric.

It's speech. In the absence of any evidence that Karl devised a plan for your actual advise, it's exaggerated speech, which is, as I've just mentioned, one of the definitions of 'rhetoric'.

Just to get you up to speed, what I am accusing Karl of is lashing out against me for no good reason, and then going on to make up a ridiculous, profoundly vicious scenario of me following grieving parents around and pushing on them the malice of God.

That is what I call "being a huge jerk," and which I classify as more than rhetoric. Especially since it's come out that it's all been predicated on Karl's personal theological issues and not on what I actually said.

No, it's predicated on a statement of yours, which was, "I'm not sure God killing babies for no reason at all (which he quite demonstrably does all the time[) is much better than God killing a baby for a reason."

My bold, but your words.

And I do not believe that you are really so thick as to imagine that I think you follow bereaved parents around spouting your theology. I invited you to do a thought experiment where you did do that, to consider what the end result would be, and what that might tell you about your theology.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
*shrug* Dumb and jerkish rhetoric is still rhetoric.

You're welcome to keep pursuing him until he utters the correct adjectives, but I expect you will continue to receive commentary from various Shipmates who are NOT members of the Duopoly of Evil suggesting that you haven't chosen the wisest course.

I suppose this is a lot better than what you were pitching earlier. I might as well quit when I'm as ahead as I'm going to be.
What I was pitching earlier was that it was legitimate for you to be outraged by what Karl had said.

You actually started this thread with people on your side. Big, mean people.

This was apparently such an awful state of affairs that you then proceeded to do your utmost to rectify it.

All I did to get you, at least, to turn instantly was to doubt the sincerity of Karl's apology, a thing he himself hasn't been bothered to defend since.

Which, even if there wasn't now plenty of reason to doubt, is such a small thing, I can't really conceive of how it brought down all this. Which, I know, is the entire problem, and why the situation really is beyond fixing.

[ 19. June 2014, 11:16: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

You actually started this thread with people on your side. Big, mean people.

I didn't say anything.

Surely one should wait for the really big and really mean before coming to premature conclusions?

Or alternatively, the really saintly and the really unbiased?

I haven't seen evidence for much of either thus far.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
So which team are you fielding for today, Evensong?

I notice there hasn't been much of this forgiveness shit Christianity's supposed to go in for.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
What people were "on my side" really? MT said I was right but couldn't say so without a passive aggressive insult about how horrible it is to defend me, and orfeo is pretending that "being a huge jerk for no reason" constitutes "rhetoric," which I flatter myself to think is something personal considering it's for something against me.

[ 19. June 2014, 11:25: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Surely one should wait for the really big and really mean before coming to premature conclusions?

...said the mouse, turning up late to the tiger convention.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
So which team are you fielding for today, Evensong?

Well at the moment Zach is looking like the underdog. So it's my Christian Duty in this context to field for him.

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

I notice there hasn't been much of this forgiveness shit Christianity's supposed to go in for.

From whose side? Both Zach and Karl are Christians.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Surely one should wait for the really big and really mean before coming to premature conclusions?

...said the mouse, turning up late to the tiger convention.
The mouse? Never been called that before.

Besides. I'm a Wood Tiger. 1974. You?
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
All I did to get you, at least, to turn instantly was to doubt the sincerity of Karl's apology, a thing he himself hasn't been bothered to defend since.

All you did was doubt?

No. What you did was outright reject it as loudly and emphatically as you could conceive. You think "Go to hell" is you expressing doubt? In what universe?
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
and orfeo is pretending that "being a huge jerk for no reason" constitutes "rhetoric,"

Oh fuck off. You snivelling pathetic weasel. You can barely go a SINGLE POST without twisting someone's words in the most negative light. It is your mission in life to be the put upon, the downtrodden, the wronged party. You fucking love wallowing in misery. I bet you spent your university years writing deep, meaningful poetry about the agony of existence and how oppressed you were by the system.

Go play in traffic and stay there until you really have something to cry about. Whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnneeee!
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
All I did to get you, at least, to turn instantly was to doubt the sincerity of Karl's apology, a thing he himself hasn't been bothered to defend since.

All you did was doubt?

No. What you did was outright reject it as loudly and emphatically as you could conceive. You think "Go to hell" is you expressing doubt? In what universe?

Is this some sort of psychological argument? "In what universe does this constitute rhetoric?" vs. "In what universe does telling a person to go to hell express doubt about an apology's sincerity?
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
I cannot Adam'n'Eve it that this thread has run to three pages....
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
and orfeo is pretending that "being a huge jerk for no reason" constitutes "rhetoric,"

Oh fuck off. You snivelling pathetic weasel. You can barely go a SINGLE POST without twisting someone's words in the most negative light. It is your mission in life to be the put upon, the downtrodden, the wronged party. You fucking love wallowing in misery. I bet you spent your university years writing deep, meaningful poetry about the agony of existence and how oppressed you were by the system.

Go play in traffic and stay there until you really have something to cry about. Whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhine whinewhiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnneeee!

Said the guy that almost banned a long time poster for making a joke about his sex life.

[ 19. June 2014, 11:59: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
/Hosting

Let's all remember that not posting =/= not hosting.

Hosting/

Sioni Sais
Hellhost
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Duly noted. As a mere poster, orfeo once threw a multi-page temper tantrum when I called him a heretic, and when I finally did apologize he threw the apology right back in my face. And that comment wasn't even predicated on malice.

As a poster and has a host, orfeo is a gigantic fucking hypocrite. He's the king of outraged offense compared to me.
 
Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
All I did to get you, at least, to turn instantly was to doubt the sincerity of Karl's apology, a thing he himself hasn't been bothered to defend since.

Which, even if there wasn't now plenty of reason to doubt, is such a small thing, I can't really conceive of how it brought down all this. Which, I know, is the entire problem, and why the situation really is beyond fixing.

Why would you doubt Karl's sincerity? He said (to paraphrase) that he hadn't meant the thing you took offence at (namely, wishing you dead), but apologised for giving that impression. And not in a fake "sorry that you took offence" manner, but in a way that acknowledged that the fault for causing the offence was his, because of how his post was worded.

Add to that the fact that Karl is (to put it mildly) not exactly known for being an arsehole, is not generally either aggressive or dishonest, and set out quite plausibly what he did intend his post to convey, and I can't see any fair reason for thinking him insincere.

I can't be the only person who's reading this feeling no hostility to you at all, but who is wishing that you'd step back, take a deep breath, and accept Karl's apology with the same grace with which it was offered.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

I can't be the only person who's reading this feeling no hostility to you at all, but who is wishing that you'd step back, take a deep breath, and accept Karl's apology with the same grace with which it was offered.

Exactly right.

I am beginning to think you enjoy feeling aggrieved, Zach82.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
As a poster and has a host, orfeo is a gigantic fucking hypocrite. He's the king of outraged offense compared to me.

(emphasis mine)

Be very careful when making comments about Hosts in their capacity as Hosts, Zach. Attacking them as posters is fine, but when you go out of your way to specify that you're attacking them as Hosts as well then I can't help but glance meaningfully at Commandment 6...

Marvin
Admin
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Duly noted. As a mere poster, orfeo once threw a multi-page temper tantrum when I called him a heretic, and when I finally did apologize he threw the apology right back in my face. And that comment wasn't even predicated on malice.

As a poster and has a host, orfeo is a gigantic fucking hypocrite. He's the king of outraged offense compared to me.

Hostly bowler on

Zach82:

If you have anything resembling a question about hostly action you take it to the Styx. Your remark about orfeo as a poster is OK but coupling it with his hosting contravenes C6 (look it up).

The Admins have been informed.

Hostly bowler off

Sioni Sais
Hellhost
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
Ninja'd

[Razz]
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
I am sorry for questioning orfeo's hosting.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
Apology accepted.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I've got no idea how you think I almost banned someone. I certainly remember the incident. I remember being very angry. But I have absolutely no power to ban anyone.

EDIT: And please note, I'm only talking about it because the thing had precisely nothing to do with me being a Host. I wasn't even being a Host at the time, as I was travelling across North America at the time.

But Hosts never, ever have the power to implement bans.

[ 19. June 2014, 13:10: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :
 
Zach,

As someone who doesn't (as far as I recall) have any issues with you or Karl could you just post something to the effect of "Dear Karl, I accept your apology. We are clearly not going to see eye to eye on this whole providence business, so shall we move on?"

Alternatively, you could hang on and hope that someone ends up going to Canossa. But as, has been pointed out, thus far you have hitherto managed to wind up people who, ordinarily, might have supported you and ticked off the hosts and admins. For the love of Mike, bank the apology and move on.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Now see this is more interesting.

Eliab and Gildas are slightly weighted toward the really saintly and really unbiased side.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Zach,

As someone who doesn't (as far as I recall) have any issues with you or Karl could you just post something to the effect of "Dear Karl, I accept your apology. We are clearly not going to see eye to eye on this whole providence business, so shall we move on?"

Alternatively, you could hang on and hope that someone ends up going to Canossa. But as, has been pointed out, thus far you have hitherto managed to wind up people who, ordinarily, might have supported you and ticked off the hosts and admins. For the love of Mike, bank the apology and move on.

[Overused]
 
Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 
If I had Russ, Oscar the Grouch, Lyda Rose, Eliab, and Gildas suggesting I might be over-reacting I hope I would have to humility to consider the possibility that they might be right. The fact that others whose fairness I trusted less might agree with them would, I hope, not keep me from considering that I might not be acting gracefully.

If I were posting in such a manner that I could get deano and leo to agree on something, I know I would have to lie down.
 
Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Now see this is more interesting.

Eliab and Gildas are slightly weighted toward the really saintly and really unbiased side.

Unlike Eliab I am probably not unbiased and certainly not saintly. I have, however, made a tit of myself on these boards often enough to recognise when someone else is making the same mistake.
 
Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 
Poe's Law.

Fuck me gently with a chainsaw.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've seen people moved to incandescent anger (and I don't blame them) by suggestions that it's "God's will". I've seen people destroyed by grief, so utterly destroyed that any suggestion that it's "God's will" similarly moves me to incandescent anger.

A close relation to this sort of thought is
quote:
Everything happens for a reason.
which somehow seems give more comfort than the more honest and direct "it's all God's will; all y'all need to just suck it up."

I try to be gentle when I suggest to those transfixed by grief that God is, in fact, outraged by a small child's excruciating pain from, say, leukemia. How could it be otherwise for the all-loving god who desires the restoration of all things.

This God, to whom fully faithful witness is given in the entire Bible, OT & NT, desires with great desire that we participate the divine life. But, when we don't then some seriously bad shit happens. And, that's on us, not on God.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
All I did to get you, at least, to turn instantly was to doubt the sincerity of Karl's apology, a thing he himself hasn't been bothered to defend since.

Can't say I blame him. If you didn't accept the sincerity of his apology, what could possibly make him believe you'd accept the sincerity of his defense of the sincerity of his apology? Certainly no behavior you've demonstrated on this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
What people were "on my side" really? MT said I was right but couldn't say so without a passive aggressive insult about how horrible it is to defend me,

Jesus you really are a fucking pansy. That was a light-hearted aside about how we usually don't get along so well, to show that I wasn't taking your side in the conflict out of cameraderie but because I really, objectively, thought you had a good case. HAD being the operative word here. My God, man, go see your therapist and leave the ship alone for a while.
 
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
Clearly, we have wasted enough time gnawing on the thin amusement to be derived from what Zach pretends to be thinking about the actual words he posted. The time has come to start speculating on what this is all really about.

I suspect that he's had an accident trimming hairs in a sensitive area, and is suffering from a testicular laceration. Which, as it turns out, he is too embarrassed to seek treatment for. And is now subsequently hosting a largish colony of bacterial squatters in his nethers, of an ilk that poisons his testosterone feed. Driving him mad. And more than usually stupid.
 
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Ow.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Gammy gonads? That might explain quite a bit...
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Yeah, who can know it.

Murder isn't far from ANY of our hearts.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:

Murder isn't far from ANY of our hearts.

[Eek!] Speak for yourself!

I can't even use mousetraps!
 
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

I can't be the only person who's reading this feeling no hostility to you at all, but who is wishing that you'd step back, take a deep breath, and accept Karl's apology with the same grace with which it was offered.

Exactly right.

I am beginning to think you enjoy feeling aggrieved, Zach82.

Indeed. He must be positively orgasmic right now. And we keep feeding him with all this attention.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
After taking a long drive yesterday I reached the conclusion that I really have been being very silly. Whatever the rhetorical point Karl was trying to make by saying the board would be better off being rid of me, it seems to be a generally shared sentiment, and this has seemed to be the case for a while now. It seemed to be the case long before this thread even happened.

I'm not expecting any sympathy, and even less am I expecting anyone to beg me to stay. I'm honestly not. I just wanted to take my leave on a positive note because this community really has been important to me over the years.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Zach82 - from my reading of the situation:

Karl overstated something, and you complained. Nobody had any problems at this point.

Karl apologised - still no problem. Normal Hell thread, thread gets closed. Instead you refused to accept the apology. That's when you got attacked - for not accepting an apology.

I don't see anyone saying you should leave the Ship, just accept an apology.
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Oh, Geez! ANOTHER flounce! The line taking bets forms to the right.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
After taking a long drive yesterday I reached the conclusion that I really have been being very silly. Whatever the rhetorical point Karl was trying to make by saying the board would be better off being rid of me, it seems to be a generally shared sentiment, and this has seemed to be the case for a while now. It seemed to be the case long before this thread even happened.

I'm not expecting any sympathy, and even less am I expecting anyone to beg me to stay. I'm honestly not. I just wanted to take my leave on a positive note because this community really has been important to me over the years.

If you think that strikes a positive note then you must have a tin ear.

Byeee!
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I see Zach purchased the "Nobody likes me everybody hates me" t-shirt from the same vendor as EvangelicalEvaporator.
 
Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 
So I guess it is easier to leave after more than a decade here than consider that one might have spurned a genuinely-offered apology.

Wow!
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I've had my moments with Zach, but we worked it out on his last Hell thread. I'd be sorry to see him go if only because we need some representation of loyal yet conservative Piskies. I'm certainly loyal but not particularly conservative. [Razz]

And I do have some sympathy for those who have opinions which are under-represented here. Handling arguments gracefully when you feel like you are being carpet bombed with countering views would take some finesse and some thick skin. There are people here who have that finesse in spades. And some just have skin like tough old leather. Either way, some who are passionate about their views and yet are sensitive can have a hard time of it and even misconstrue things at times. Some don't flounce but just quietly leave for the most part, just popping in to make a brief appearances on occasion. That makes me rather sad.

So, Zach, this isn't "begging" for you to reconsider, but I do hope that you will think of this as a break and not a flounce.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
By saying I was being silly, I had meant to imply that I was being silly to not accept the apology offered. Sorry for not making that clearer.

I'm not going to stick around defend my decision to move on from the ship, but I do want to make that clear.
 
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
"Nobody likes me,
  Everybody hates me,
    Going to the garden to eat worms.
"

Yes, that is a much less childish reaction. Mature, even. Balanced. Our tiny little heads may explode from the sheer quantity of our newfound respect for your insight and equanimity.
 
Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Zach, this isn't "begging" for you to reconsider, but I do hope that you will think of this as a break and not a flounce.

Seconded.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Take a breather, think in a more relaxed environment about how you can take all the bastard down with your brilliant Calvinist arguments, then come back. Simples.
 
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
Fuckin' softies.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
By saying I was being silly, I had meant to imply that I was being silly to not accept the apology offered.

Yes you were - but surely that's not a reason to leave? Especially as you say this community really has been important to you over the years.

There is far more to the Ship than Hell - just hang around All Saints, heaven and the circus for a while. Then, when and if you are ready, come back for a bit more purgatory and hell fire [Smile]
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
By saying I was being silly, I had meant to imply that I was being silly to not accept the apology offered.

Yes you were - but surely that's not a reason to leave? Especially as you say this community really has been important to you over the years.

There is far more to the Ship than Hell - just hang around All Saints, heaven and the circus for a while. Then, when and if you are ready, come back for a bit more purgatory and hell fire [Smile]

Hell hosts know this more than most. If we didn't get fluffy in Heaven and play silly games in The Circus (or Purgatory, if the mood takes us) we couldn't host Hell.

Flounces in Hell bring out the very worst in me, and that is very bad indeed.
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Zach, this isn't "begging" for you to reconsider, but I do hope that you will think of this as a break and not a flounce.

Seconded.
Thirded. [Waterworks]
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Fuck me gently with a chainsaw.

I missed this earlier. The best part of this thread in my read of it just now. And also because [i]Heathers[i] is so great.

I happen to like Karl and Zach both. Both contribute. Both say things I like and dislike. So can we all fuck each other with chainsaws about now? It's all just so very.
 


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