Thread: A Thread on the French Language Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
A minor minion of Her Canadian Majesty informed me today by e-mail that I am to attend a French-language test. So I am busily reviewing my French.

It is also a great segue into general discussion of the French Language and trying to learn French.

My problem is always the Direct Object, which is often different from English and gives me no end of problems. Lequel, or qui? Grrr.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I speak French!

I admit that I can't conjure up all the rules about the direct object, but I'd use lequel after a preposition.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I have found Edith Piaf's songs to be very useful. E.g., Je repars à zéro helps with the eternally infernal verb+adjective pairing; Je ne regrette rien with the confusing double negative; Je ne suis qu'une fille du port, while reminding us of the place of que in the negative, is also a handy phrase for any public servant.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
I have considered taking the 'executive French' course that meets the federal requirement. But mostly for myself, as I am semi-retired and have no earthly purpose for this other than envy. I understand 'cereal box French'* and can navigate reasonably in listening to others, getting the gist of basic communication. If it is not too early, may I offer congratulations at being at this level of proficiency!

*cereal box French: the French I have learned by reading the list of ingredients and advertising on packaged foods, which are bilingual in Canada.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Another useful tool (for Anglicans) is to run off the French text of the BAS/BCP to follow as the priest does their thing in English; and, as well to memorize the French-language collect, and review the lessons in French. Following the offices in French would likely be too much work, so setting yourself the analysis and careful reading of one of the psalms for that Sunday, would be invaluable.

Those who attend other services can easily either follow the reading with a French Bible (my language-oriented friends sing the praises of the Bible Jérusalem) or, if they are in a church with a lectionary, prep themselves with a half hour or so of reading in advance.

Another tool is to regularly (as in, every night) watch the Radio-Canada news at 10. R-C announcers are usually careful and correct in their pronunciation (unlike their TVA counterparts)-- when you can't quite follow one news item, the next one will be clearer, and the context helps you understand. Those who walk around can also benefit by the podcasts available through R-C. Let the ambitious try Radio France International news podcasts-- I find them challenging but they provide a different perspective on the news.

In my days, I found it was really useful to take an interesting (to me) article in Le Devoir, and parsing it very carefully, making notes and vocabulary cards.

The Feds' language requirements are sort-of clear-- and you will need to sit down and pound those specific grammatical points into your head. Annoying, but necessary and, in due course, you will see how useful it was.

Anglophone Canadians often collapse in their efforts to learn workable French as we get discouraged easily. It takes diligent plugging away without any perceptible progress and then it starts shining through in an epiphanic manner. I have found that the access to wonderful music and perspectives and friendships with remarkable and warm people who valued the effort I put into learning their language. I cannot encourage people enough on this.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Yeah, that's pretty much what happened to me, I had that moment eight months ago. Though I prefer La Presse. I was reading the articles for interest and subject matter, and not tripping over grammar any more.

At the same time, I started to appreciate "Et Dieu créa... Laflaque" for the jokes and was getting most of the sketches.

At the same time, I managed to have a conversation in Montréal with some Quebeckers who stayed in French when I started speaking. I "passed".
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
'cereal box French'.
Ah yes, like the packet I saw with the legend 'Bowel Buddy Grenade' which convinced me the Canadians have a short way with constipation.

(And SPK, it could be worse. You could be in Wales. Now there's a language...)
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I should mention I have a secret weapon: a French-language teaching service which does lessons over the internet with webcams, using the School of the Public Service's FSL curriculum.

I got 31/60 last time, 33/60 is the B threshold that I need, so I am optimistic.

I was at a Selection Board interview in Montreal where I revealed I had such good preparation. The looks on their faces was precious. PM me for details.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I took three years of French in secondary school. Both the late Mr. Le Claire, a French-Canadian who taught the first year and Mrs. V. who lived on a sailboat near my brother's current residence in Marina del Rey were native speakers.

I recently saw the young lady who sat behind me in Mrs. V's class at a neighbourhood reunion in Pasadena. She may have used the language in her work as an executive with AT & T, though she did not say so directly.

A fond memory of French class with Mrs. V. is the huge crush I had on the lovely student teacher with the super-model looks. I nearly broke up with my equally-lovely girlfriend over her. We never dated because in spite of the fact that I could pass for 22 and buy adult beverages down at the beach, she correctly discerned that I was under eighteen because it was obvious that all of my fellow students were! I'll always miss Miss MacDonald!

It was helpful that I remembered a good bit of French when, in my role as a grammar school supply teacher, there was a new lad among my eight-or-nine-year-olds from the Ivory Coast. How the bilingual Spanish-speaking school secretary got him registered as a pupil I will never know! I helped him pronounce the alphabet in English and could manage a wee bit of other instruction in French.

My wife, Zeke on the Ship, encountered a bank customer visiting from France at her bank (before she finished university and became a school teacher.) She used her three years of French to correctly determine that the young man wished to have a cash advance from one of his credit cards. I was very proud of her when she told me!
 
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
I love French, it is the only language I can speak (other than English, obviously)with any real proficiency though my vocabulary regularly goes walkies and I massacre the grammar.
Now I am learning Kiswahili and when I can't find a word my brain goes straight to my default French which amuse and frustrates me in equal measure.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Hah, that happened to me too when I was learning Kiswahili at university, Mrs Beaky. It didn't help that I started the Swahili just after getting back from my year in France and was more or less bilingual in French at the time...

...I'm not any more, though. Haven't visited France or spoken French on a regular basis for years. I can still read it and understand spoken French reasonably well, but have lost my confidence in speaking it.

<tangent> One of the things our Swahili teacher used to get us to do in our conversation seminars was translate English fairy tales into Swahili. This was unexpectedly difficult owing to the lack of crucial vocabulary - so Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf became Little Red Kanga (= traditional African garment) and the Big Bad Fisi (= hyena)... <\tangent>
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
I have a great admiration for all you people who manage to be reasonably fluent in two or more languages. I can get by in French, by which I mean I can buy a train ticket or order a meal, but I do find it very difficult. German is a lot easier - I once even managed to win an argument in German with a waiter over the bill, which I regard as a great achievement!

When I visited Montreal some years ago I had a marvellous time. French Canadian French is MUCH easier to understand than French French. I don't know whether it's the accent, or that French Canadians speak more slowly than people in France, but it was great.

SPK, good luck with your test.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Chamois: French Canadian French is MUCH easier to understand than French French.
It's exactly the opposite for me. I worked closely together with someone from Québec for a while, and I had difficulty understanding him at times.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Chamois:
quote:
I have a great admiration for all you people who manage to be reasonably fluent in two or more languages.
That would be you as well, then - French, German and English, yes?

Winning an argument with a waiter does suggest that you are more than "reasonably fluent" in German! But I'm like LeRoc: I find Standard French (as spoken in Paris and northern France) much easier to understand than Canadian French.

[ 29. July 2014, 20:16: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I learnt French in primary school as well as secondary school. I still have no problem reading it, but it's the language I like the least, largely because of the way it sounds.

Over the years, I've hardly ever used it. The only time in 30 years that I found a use for it was when my landlord's family had some French kids to stay, and all the adults went off somewhere and let the kids do what they felt like, and I had to try to get some sense out of them. In French. Which I hadn't spoken for 25 years.

Oddly enough, Italian has come in a lot more useful, mainly when trying to give lost tourists directions, though it was also useful as a means of communicating with a Brazilian flatmate who only spoke Portuguese when she arrived. We were able to find vocabulary in common.

[ 29. July 2014, 20:24: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Chamois: French Canadian French is MUCH easier to understand than French French.
It's exactly the opposite for me. I worked closely together with someone from Québec for a while, and I had difficulty understanding him at times.
The Public Service of Canada aims for an educated, polished version of Quebec French. It's nearly identical to written standard French (there is one difference on gender agreements) and the desired spoken accent is a "soft" Quebec one. Not too twangy. Metropolitan French sounds very dainty to my ears, compared to Quebec French.

Half of my French teachers in school were from Quebec (that's just natural market forces) and the other half had spent much of their time in advanced studies there. It's a generational thing in Canada, here young English speakers learn Quebec French. That's where the teachers come from and that's where you'll go to get any mileage out of your French, usually on vacation or if you're lucky for work.

My spoken accent tends a mild Quebec one. I say "way" instead of "wee" for "oui" oftentimes, as that is the Quebec way. Perhaps that's my roots on the North Shore of New Brunswick showing through.
 
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
French and Latin are probably the only languages I can still read from my time in school (though I suspect the Greek and German would come "back" if I ever actually had any need for them, and, for whatever reason, whenever I try to speak any language, I default to the Russian I haven't had to use in, oh, 12 years or so), and French the only one I willingly read on my own. Being an elbow-patched academic, I ended up learning the passé simple before the passé composé and how to reconstruct what the Old French root would have been, but not how to actually pronounce the language; I'm supposed to be reading Pascal and Descartes, not actually talking to anybody! Happily, Pascal's a pretty darn good writer (the section on distraction includes about every use of "que" imaginable), so…I guess it was kinda worth it? Almost?

It threw me for a loop when I started reading Camus, just as I've been told it did everybody else.

[ 30. July 2014, 02:02: Message edited by: Ariston ]
 
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel
Oddly enough, Italian has come in a lot more useful, mainly when trying to give lost tourists directions, though it was also useful as a means of communicating with a Brazilian flatmate who only spoke Portuguese when she arrived. We were able to find vocabulary in common.
I remember an Italian traveller at Nairobi international airport who was lost and spoke no English and was really stressed...so I launched in and managed to sort her out with a mixture of mime and speaking French whilst trying to use an Italian accent and style...not a pretty sight!
 
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
<tangent> One of the things our Swahili teacher used to get us to do in our conversation seminars was translate English fairy tales into Swahili. This was unexpectedly difficult owing to the lack of crucial vocabulary - so Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf became Little Red Kanga (= traditional African garment) and the Big Bad Fisi (= hyena)... <\tangent>
I really love this!
It only serves to illustrate the fact that each of our languages be it French, Kiswahili or any other has its own rich bank of literary images that don't always translate well.
Which reminds me of an egregious error I once made in a vote of thanks to our French hosts on a school to school exchange. [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

My spoken accent tends a mild Quebec one. I say "way" instead of "wee" for "oui" oftentimes, as that is the Quebec way. Perhaps that's my roots on the North Shore of New Brunswick showing through.
They do that in Metropolitan French as well. The question is whether you pronounce "poutine" and "faire" like the English "puts in" and "fire" ....

(I had a Québecoise housemate for a bit when I lived in France. It took me a while to work out she was talking in French ...)
 
Posted by Dogwalker (# 14135) on :
 
I was really stupid in High School. My French teacher was a French-Canadian, but he'd spent World War II and after as a US Army translator in Europe.

He'd tell us about French in Canada, different parts of France, Belgium and Switzerland.

And I really didn't pay much attention; it was just a requirement to fulfill.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
As far as I know, I've never heard anyone speaking Quebec French. Does it sound a bit like Belgian? And do they use words like septante, huitante and nonante?
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Quebec French bears a resemblance to Belgian French; most colonists in New France came from Normandy and Brittany, with the honourable exception of the King's Daughters who came mostly from Paris. Insofar as both are Northern French dialects with close geographic proximity, that's where the resemblance comes from.

Quebec French is a survivor of the Ancienne Regime as Quebec French standardized a century earlier than Mainland France did and around a different dialect, Royal Court French. Proper Quebec French is a mixture of Norman and Breton French with the Court French of the Royal Army and the clergy. Or rather, it's Norman and Breton settlers trying as best they can to speak good Court French and teaching that to their children.

At the slangy end, it has enough impure vowels to give Australia a run for its money. [Devil]

Quebecois do not use "septante", etc. as soixante-dix and quatre-vignt was a Norman innovation so they use the modern system.

As for "Poots-in", guilty as charged. That's called affrication and it's nearly universal in Quebec. But never "fire" for "faire" since I am a Canadian English-speaker so I draw the line at improper impure vowels. [Big Grin] Canadian English is one of the flattest, most pure-vowelled accents in English, I have standards to keep up.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Enoch can easily listen to the nouvelles on Radio Canada on ITunes, which gives a good example of standard Canadian French, more or less as one will find it in the Québec City region. I find the educated spoken French in this area as clean as anything you will find, as nice as that of Touraine, and certainly more comprehensible than Parisian. Coming from eastern Ontario, I can manage my way in our local French (akin to New Brunswick's chiac, perhaps expressed most vigorously by Les Hay Babies in this little ditty.) to the horror of my more literate francophone friends.

[ 01. August 2014, 16:09: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
At the same time, I started to appreciate "Et Dieu créa... Laflaque" for the jokes and was getting most of the sketches.
I've been watching Les Bougon and listening to Les Anticipateurs to get a better handle on the dialect spoken in my borough, which for me is an exception to Chamois' observation about the relative comprehensibility of Québec French. "Polished" it ain't: if anything it's nigh to Joual.

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

My spoken accent tends a mild Quebec one. I say "way" instead of "wee" for "oui" oftentimes, as that is the Quebec way. Perhaps that's my roots on the North Shore of New Brunswick showing through.
They do that in Metropolitan French as well. The question is whether you pronounce "poutine" and "faire" like the English "puts in" and "fire" ....
Yes, affrication is kind of a shibboleth here: I learned quickly to do it so as not to be immediately marked as an Anglo (or worse, a Frenchman!) "Faire" is a good example of why I find Metropolitan French difficult. The latter's vowels tend to sound indistinct to me, swallowed into schwas, whereas Québec French seems to be more Latinate in its commitment to saying all the vowels: fa-i-re. (I'm not sure why this "impure"). And no, as my mother as found out, the Swiss numbering forms she picked up at boarding school are met with blank stares.

I had one fearsome prof at Glendon who was partial to the RFI broadcasts. Like Augustine, I find the liturgy a big help too: I have the Lord's Prayer memorized but am still working on the prayer of humble access.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I have forgotten most of the grammar, and deeply regret having lost the exercise book in which we laboriously wrote in black and in red with dip pens all the rules. Also I regret that my brain, while I was not looking, translated all the long tangents that our brilliant teacher went off on into English. Thus I know how to prepare escargot, mix a vinaigrette, and what she did at her baccalaureate, and her French education before she returned to Folkestone. But I no longer know the words she used to tell us. (She left an interesting gap in her story. Fluent French speaker with a degree in chemistry, and a knowledge of living in France. I don't think she spent the war with the evacuated girls in North Wales. And there's a tale of the President giving her a Croix de Guerre, and I know the people in Paris thought her a wonderful person.)

I can just about ask for tomatoes at the market in Calais.
 
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :
 
I learned French in the days when it was studied in a New Zealand school purely as a written/read language; at uni we had a weekly 'oral' class in which we were given dictée and averaged marks of 5/10. A French assistante at the school where I taught in the UK tidied up my pronunciation... Several years later, as a teacher of French, I did a month's course at Tours, and though I never followed conversational spoken French with any confidence, my cahier from that time shows that I understood lectures and took notes competently in class.
Nowadays I'm inclined to be very shy of speaking French to a native speaker, but read French quite happily.
I was staggered, though, when I found that I had two full exercise books of poems written between the ages of 14 and 28, including several in what looks like quite competent French.

I recall a bus tour in Quebec on which all but one of the tourists were English speakers, and our driver would have been able to give his talk in perfectly passable English, but the last passenger was Madame from Paris and insisted on a French version – which she then complained she couldn't understand.

GG

[ 05. August 2014, 10:10: Message edited by: Galloping Granny ]
 
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :
 
Something I've noticed in the sound of Quebec French versus the sound of France French is that the France French speakers I've heard tend to round and protrude their lips, and Quebec French speakers don't. It makes a different to the way the French sounds.

I did A level French, and I can read French but have a lot of difficulty understanding spoken French, either from Quebec or from France. I can analyse the differences in the way it sounds, and the phonemes, and I can identify various words they say, but I can never make overall sense of it.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Enoch: As far as I know, I've never heard anyone speaking Quebec French. Does it sound a bit like Belgian?
I lived in Belgium and are very much used to hearing Belgian (Wallon) French. I find it very different from Québec French. To me, the greatest difficulty with the latter is how the vowels are pronounced.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
To me, the greatest difficulty with the latter is how the vowels are pronounced.
Not to mention elided. The Québecois have something of a tonic accent, too.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Eutychus: Not to mention elided. The Québecois have something of a tonic accent, too.
Yes, I agree. I like it, but it is more difficult for me to understand sometimes.

For me, the easiest form of French is that from West Africa.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Ah yes, the the famous Québecois "twang". I don't have it. Yet. [Two face]

The most (in)famous example of it has to be Guy A. Lepage, host of Tout le monde en parle. Wow, he's twangy.

I do find that I am trilling my R's instead of using the uvular Parisian R. Both are found and used in Québec, the former used to dominate in Montréal and the latter nearer to Québec City, but the uvualar R has taken over. However my French teacher is of a certain age so she still trills her R's, as do I. I find it helps my pronunciation.

Québecois don't round their vowels as much as Metropolitan French does, it makes Metropolitan French sound very "dainty" in my ears.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Lots of trilled r's in old Radio Canada teleromans and NFB documentaries.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Another minor minion of Her Canadian Majesty informed me today that I had received a "B" in my French Written Expression Test, which was the level required. [Smile]

A B is higher than an A, while a C is the highest language level in the Public Service of Canada.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Félicitations !

(Congratulations)
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:


A B is higher than an A, while a C is the highest language level in the Public Service of Canada.
There are actually two more which are used for certain professional categories. For instance, when I was working I had a profile of ACE - the A for the speaking, the C and E for reading and writing. E meant that they would never test me again in that area. The CE meant that I grandfathered in my professional level which meant that I more than met the requirements of the job.

The other level, which I only saw a few times was P. This was for jobs requiring perfect fluency, such as in Translation.
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
Congratulations!
 
Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on :
 
Another former French student here - my degree (completed 8 years ago) was in French and German, and I do still use a bit of French. I teach in a primary school, and have the joy (!) of teaching Years 3 to 6 (ages 7 to 11) French once a week. I find that having a detailed knowledge of the language helps - I can deal with their random questions.

I'm not sure how well I'd do with speaking with real French people these days though - it's been a while.
 
Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :
 
slightly off on a tangent - my favourite piece of Franglais...

Je vous assure, je ne suis pas quelqu'un a trifler avec
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
I don't know if any folks here are David Sedaris fans (think of an essayist like a younger, American Alan Bennet) but his piece on a beginner French class explaining Easter to each other is fantastic. It's here.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
SPK mentioned that there are some changes in gender between Metropolitan French and Quebec French.I'm just wondering if 'regime' is one of those words.
This is not Quebec French,I think,but it is my favourite phrase written in a letter by an Anglophone teenager learning French
'Je espoir episcopal tu bientot'I can't quite give a translation into Standard English.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Well, that's a shame, because it means that anyone not familiar with French won't get the point. May I encourage you to have a go? Thanks!

(We do normally ask shipmates to provide a translation of foreign-language phrases, etc.)
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
je= I , espoir = hope (noun) 'episcopal' is a way of indicating that the word in English 'see' has also a meaning of a bishop's seat,tu = you (as the subject of a sentence )and bientot = soon

voila,ca y est ! = that's it !,(so it is,as they say in Northern Ireland)
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I don't know if any folks here are David Sedaris fans (think of an essayist like a younger, American Alan Bennet) but his piece on a beginner French class explaining Easter to each other is fantastic. It's here.
Tim Blake Nelson did a magnificent reading of that on NPR's Selected Shorts.
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
This is not Quebec French,I think,but it is my favourite phrase written in a letter by an Anglophone teenager learning French
'Je espoir episcopal tu bientot'I can't quite give a translation into Standard English.
The best I can say is that the kid had no idea of declensions. I hope to see you soon.

[ 30. August 2014, 14:37: Message edited by: PeteC ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Thank you. I was completely mystified by "I hope to bishop you soon."
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
SPK mentioned that there are some changes in gender between Metropolitan French and Quebec French.I'm just wondering if 'regime' is one of those words.
This is not Quebec French,I think,but it is my favourite phrase written in a letter by an Anglophone teenager learning French
'Je espoir episcopal tu bientot'I can't quite give a translation into Standard English.
[Disappointed]

"Tu" is the subject, "toi" or "vous" is the object.

And [Hot and Hormonal] upthread, it's L'Ancien Régime. I'm an Anglo, I make grammatical gender mistakes a lot.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Ne t'en fais pas ! =' not you of it do step ' or better still it means 'don't worry'!
 
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
Remembering all the genders is *hard*. I arrived in Paris with fluent French (Master’s degree) and have lived here for ten years. I speak French better than some French people. I still get genders wrong now and again.
 
Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Ne t'en fais pas ! =' not you of it do step ' or better still it means 'don't worry'!
I was taught that this phrase is the contraction of "Ne te fais pas de souci", literally, "do not make for yourself some worry". The "de souci" becomes the 'en'. And the 'ne' is often dropped to give:

"T'en fais pas"
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Remembering all the genders is *hard*. I arrived in Paris with fluent French (Master’s degree) and have lived here for ten years. I speak French better than some French people. I still get genders wrong now and again.
As my French teacher says, with me it's always grammatical genders and the subjunctive.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Keep on saying the Lord's prayer in French with its three subjunctives and finish it with 'Ainsi
soit-il' (Amen)
 


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