Thread: The curious phenomenon of 'celebrity Christians' Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
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Just read this blog post about the 'celebrity Christians' phenomenon and thought I'd put it up here to see what people think. The author Donald Miller said a little while ago that he rarely attends church services, and I think Rob Bell might have said the same at some point. This post gave me an insight into why they've taken that decision - from the article:
quote:
Miller explained that going to church for him was really difficult, because kind, good-willed people were constantly coming up to him asking him to help with their different projects, or for book-writing advice, or they just flooded him with requests to get together to talk. Donald Miller’s problem is that he is a celebrity.
Do you think this is a big problem in Christianity today? Do we have a massively unhealthy attitude towards Christians who've achieved some level of fame? Or are people like Miller and Bell being over-sensitive and selfish?
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Yes, I think it is a bit of a problem in Evangelicalism, which likes to show of its Christian "trophy converts", sometimes destroying them in the process.
I don't think it's a problem in MOTR Anglicanism (or the equivalent in other traditions) unless the person concerned is not just a "Christian" celebrity but a celebrity in the wider sense - in which case they are just as (or possibly less!) likely to be recognised in church as they are in a bar or a restaurant.
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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The term 'celebrity christian' has two possible meanings. One is 'a person who is primarily known as a celebrity who is also a christian' and 'someone who is primarily known within christian circles'. So the former might include the actor Stephen Baldwin or the footballer Jermain Defoe.
The latter might include the likes of Rob Bell, Vicky Beeching or Tom Wright.
The gist of the article makes it seems as though it is the latter group being talked about, though it I confess I've never heard of either Donald Miller or Jonathan Storment.
The latter group can come in for more unfair criticism particularly from hardliners. I would hope that there is always a church that can welcome them in, though it's an inevitable consequence of a broad church that there will be some who are insensitive to the particular challenges some individuals have that the rest of don't.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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I am in no way a 'celebrity Christian', and while I've been working very hard over the last few years to become 'notorious' and 'barely tolerated', there's a certain cachet in being a published author.
In my own church, I'm just me, which is right and proper, and evangelical Christianity has a very problematic relationship with art and artists anyway. The overlap between my readership and Christians is coincidental, too, so if I go to another shack, I'm almost exactly anonymous. If I was actually famous (say JK Rowling) then things would be different.
I have noticed, however, that my brother, who is A Prominent Baptist, is beginning to be recognised within the Christian sub-culture, and I think that's both interesting and slightly strange: I'm much more likely to be referred to as 'his brother' when people learn my surname.
Church has always been for me a place to sit, to be quiet, to sing and pray and serve, and to leave any worldly trappings behind. So I would fear any greater recognition I might gain: I'm just one of many, equally unworthy supplicants. I don't doubt that fame, for the want of a better word, changes both the famous and the fan, and not necessarily for the better.
Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
The term 'celebrity christian' has two possible meanings. One is 'a person who is primarily known as a celebrity who is also a christian' and 'someone who is primarily known within christian circles'. So the former might include the actor Stephen Baldwin or the footballer Jermain Defoe.
The latter might include the likes of Rob Bell, Vicky Beeching or Tom Wright.
The gist of the article makes it seems as though it is the latter group being talked about, though it I confess I've never heard of either Donald Miller or Jonathan Storment.
The latter group can come in for more unfair criticism particularly from hardliners. I would hope that there is always a church that can welcome them in, though it's an inevitable consequence of a broad church that there will be some who are insensitive to the particular challenges some individuals have that the rest of don't.
Vicky Beeching is a celebrity Christian? Gosh. She follows me on twitter and I haven't followed back because I have no idea who she is.
Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on
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I once committed a very grave sin against Christian celebrity culture. I was working for a particular Christian media organisation and I was on the phone to the wife of a certain Graham Kendrick (ever heard of him?). I made the unforgivable mistake of confessing to Mrs Kendrick that I had not heard of her husband's latest album, which elicited the rather petulant rejoinder that "you must be living a very sheltered life!"
I have to further confess that I still cannot remember the name of said album. Oh dear!
Well, I suppose I'd better just slink back into my little hermit's cell cut off from "the real world" of Kendrick albums and dirgy songs. Woe is me!! ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I made the unforgivable mistake of confessing to Mrs Kendrick that I had not heard of her husband's latest album, which elicited the rather petulant rejoinder that "you must be living a very sheltered life!"
I must have missed the memo which made it compulsory. One problem Mrs Tor doesn't have is expecting everyone at church to have read my books.
But this does speak to a wider problem: a distantly-connected relative spends a lot of their time name-dropping 'famous' Christians into their conversations. I have heard of very few of them, let alone heard them speak, much to their consternation and obvious disappointment.
I don't know what I'm supposed to feel. Awe? Reverence? Sorry. I know 'famous' people from my own circle: they still need to piss after a couple of pints, and unless I've been very lucky, to a man and woman, they don't believe their own press.
(eta: that includes people you will have heard of like George RR Martin and Neil Gaiman)
[ 14. May 2014, 10:04: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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If churches are making problems for celebrities then it is the church that has the problem.
Must confess here that we are blessed with a few celebs in the parish, some full time, some just with holiday homes.
The only time I can think of when it was a problem was when the previous incumbent thought of starting a Mothering Sunday sermon with a joke but, as he said, thought better of it when he glanced down from the pulpit to see one of the UK's most famous comedians there with his children.
(Partly shock, of course, because the comedian is usually an eight-o'clocker.)
Of course, if people see famous people where they don't expect them to be they may not be recognised: when said comedian helped me on a fete stall a few years ago the nearest he got to being recognised was one woman who said "You know, you look just like X, but a little more attractive".
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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Is the problem to do with celebrity, or is it to do with people ho work in the arts? I'm the kind of artist who's struggling to cover my costs, but I still find that churches sometimes expect freebies - time, expertise, pieces of work. It's like they don't think "the arts" is real work that deserves real pay. But then, they're not alone in that belief.
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on
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I know out adds an extra layer of complexity, but perhaps in intial announcement gm announces if spawned creatures can themselves spawn or not.
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on
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[wrong board, still good for my post count]
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I am in no way a 'celebrity Christian', and while I've been working very hard over the last few years to become 'notorious' and 'barely tolerated', there's a certain cachet in being a published author.
You have your own Wikipedia entry...
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Is the problem to do with celebrity, or is it to do with people ho work in the arts? I'm the kind of artist who's struggling to cover my costs, but I still find that churches sometimes expect freebies - time, expertise, pieces of work. It's like they don't think "the arts" is real work that deserves real pay. But then, they're not alone in that belief.
Some churches do the same for people in construction work. They think members of the congregation should do necessary repairs for free.
Moo
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I am in no way a 'celebrity Christian', and while I've been working very hard over the last few years to become 'notorious' and 'barely tolerated', there's a certain cachet in being a published author.
You have your own Wikipedia entry...
I strongly doubt, however, that the evangelical church will be rushing to claim me as one of their own... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on
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Reminds me of an early Christian monk (Anthony of the Desert? Been too long since seminary) who became so popular that he kept fleeing further and further into the wilderness, but people kept following him and asking him for advice.
More recently, there was a time when preachers like Wesley and Whitefield were the cultural equivalent of rock stars who could pack, for instance, the Boston Common.
It's nothing new.
[ 14. May 2014, 12:32: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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It's not churches, it's people.
I have a hobby of going to healing conferences. The stated goal of every speaker is to encourage us that every Christian can effectively pray for healing, and help us overcome inhibiting beliefs we have been taught about it.
They end with a dozen trained prayer teams offering prayer for specific healing - but seems like everyone wants to be prayed for by the speaker - the big name star - not the other prayer teams.
The organizers are trying to structure things to reduce the load on the main speaker but the people are flocking to him or her.
Something American - Western - or human? - about wanting to be near "the big name"? Secular culture is full of it, bus tours to places where the stars live, while movie stars try to hide behind dark glasses and high fences.
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
It's not churches, it's people.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Churches are a collection of people. At least they were the last time I checked.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Do you think this is a big problem in Christianity today? Do we have a massively unhealthy attitude towards Christians who've achieved some level of fame? Or are people like Miller and Bell being over-sensitive and selfish?
It's a problem sure enough that someone with a bit of clout or cash or a name gets feted. Not quite in keeping with what James says about "partiality"
Miller does seem a bit up himself though. "Look at me I'm rushed off my feet by people wanting me...."
[ 14. May 2014, 15:23: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
The term 'celebrity christian' has two possible meanings. One is 'a person who is primarily known as a celebrity who is also a christian' and 'someone who is primarily known within christian circles'. So the former might include the actor Stephen Baldwin or the footballer Jermain Defoe.
The latter might include the likes of Rob Bell, Vicky Beeching or Tom Wright.
The gist of the article makes it seems as though it is the latter group being talked about, though it I confess I've never heard of either Donald Miller or Jonathan Storment.
The latter group can come in for more unfair criticism particularly from hardliners. I would hope that there is always a church that can welcome them in, though it's an inevitable consequence of a broad church that there will be some who are insensitive to the particular challenges some individuals have that the rest of don't.
Vicky Beeching is a celebrity Christian? Gosh. She follows me on twitter and I haven't followed back because I have no idea who she is.
Vicky Beeching is a very well-known worship songwriter, theologian and now takes part in TV/radio debates on ethics/religion. Has come under fire recently for being an evangelical in favour of SSM.
She is probably not massively well-known in Catholic circles but extremely well-known in evangelical ones.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
[QUOTE]]Vicky Beeching is a celebrity Christian? Gosh. She follows me on twitter and I haven't followed back because I have no idea who she is.
daughter of Dr Beeching who closed railways?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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ISTM as a relative outsider that a certain celebrity culture is one of the things that's provided evangelicalism with its buzz, that's helped to make it viable in a largely secular Western culture. It keeps people interested. So, for good or ill, I suppose the criticism has to be low key.
By comparison I think MOTR Protestantism suffers because it offers too few contemporary famous names that aren't highbrow theologians. IOW, it's harder to engage people at the popular level.
Having said that, I'm from a MOTR road background, and I've gone out of my way to hear 'famous' Christians speak. One of my regrets is not going to hear Lord Soper preach when I lived in London in the 90s. But he didn't seem so famous then - I'd never heard any Methodist in my circle talk about him!
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Miller does seem a bit up himself though. "Look at me I'm rushed off my feet by people wanting me...."
I have a great deal of sympathy for him. I get requests to read over mss, cover letters, etc and for introductions to publishers and agents, most of which I (regretfully) turn down. If you start down that road, you end up with little time to actually do the the writing thing.
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
[QUOTE]]Vicky Beeching is a celebrity Christian? Gosh. She follows me on twitter and I haven't followed back because I have no idea who she is.
daughter of Dr Beeching who closed railways?
No, but she has said she's a relative. I recall she got quizzed about it when she began her PhD studies.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
[QUOTE]]Vicky Beeching is a celebrity Christian? Gosh. She follows me on twitter and I haven't followed back because I have no idea who she is.
daughter of Dr Beeching who closed railways?
No relation
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Well that teaches me to rely on Wikipedia ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Out of interest, are there Catholic 'celebrity Christians' in the same way or is it an Evangelical phenomenon? I wonder if it's linked to how buying into the latest product is such a big thing in Evangelical culture. It's a much more aggressively capitalist strand of Christianity IME (the CoE is quite passive-aggressively capitalist mind).
Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on
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Catholic celebrity Christians? Well, leaving aside the occasional Pope the Americans seem big on Scott Hahn and Mother Angelica. I think though that we tend to prefer our celebs to be in heaven, like St Therese or St Faustina, from where they can offer us a good deal more assistance than the earthbound ones.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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Also once they're in heaven they're generally less susceptible to being found rascally drunk in bed people they shouldn't be. And there's less chance of it going to their head.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Hmmm the famous Catholics I can think of are people like Dorothy Day - not a saint (yet?) and would surely count as a celebrity within Christian circles when she was alive.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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Jade wrote:
quote:
Out of interest, are there Catholic 'celebrity Christians' in the same way or is it an Evangelical phenomenon? I wonder if it's linked to how buying into the latest product is such a big thing in Evangelical culture.
My impression is that Evangelicalism has more of a tendency toward backing up its claims through personal testimony than does Catholicism. And of course, to a certain type of mindset, personal testimony is more credible if it comes from a big-name celebrity than from Joe Nobody.
Someone who would probably qualify as a Catholic celebrity in the last century was Salvador Dali, who, after a career spent partly wallowing in blasphemous anti-clericalism, swam the Tiber in middle age, infusing his later work with reverential tributes to Jesus, Mary, and the saints.
In addition to the more recognizably Daliesque pieces, he also illustrated a Bible, in a style more reminiscent of Abstract Expressionism.
I've seen a copy of that Bible, and it is quite impressive. Amazing how at-home Dali could be in a style that was not typically his own.
[ 14. May 2014, 17:51: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
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Sex, money and power are as present in church circles as in the secular arena.
Celebrity of course is relative.
I once disrespected a very well known Christian lead singer by interrupting him and talking to someone he was talking to. He was obviously peed off about this and told one of his other group members. The famous singer's keyboard player made a point of doing exactly the same to me not once but twice. This was done some time after I'd done it to his mate.
Talk about NOT turning the other cheek - wouldn't be surprised if they snort coke and do other things secular groups do too ''backstage''. Although they've now split up for sedate middle age. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
I'm just a bolshy scouser and don't really give a **** anyway, but aforementioned famous Christian singer is a multi millionaire and sends his kids to private school, which of course he has every right to do.
But this well known Christian (ex) band is generally well respected and they appear to be ''humble'' celebrities.
But I can't tell the difference really and personally still don't give a **** .
Saul
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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Martin Sheen is perhaps the only celebrity RC who comes to mind. Mel Gibson, whom I believe is now affiliated to a sedevacantist group, was among the RC celebrity crowd for a while. I don't think that there is anyone with the profile of Bing Crosby these days.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Martin Sheen is perhaps the only celebrity RC who comes to mind. Mel Gibson, whom I believe is now affiliated to a sedevacantist group, was among the RC celebrity crowd for a while. I don't think that there is anyone with the profile of Bing Crosby these days.
Living Celebrity Catholics from Wikipedia quote:
[long list removed, see link]
And then I got board.
ETA: Sorry those are all Yanks. It was the first link for celebrity Catholics and then, you know, bored.
[ 16. May 2014, 05:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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hosting/
Lilbuddha, my hostly take is that your list was far too long in relation to your actual post content, as well as being full of broken references. By its length, I believe Wikipedia's rules on reusing its content should apply, and I'm not convinced your reposting in this way complied with them. So I have replaced your edited list with a link to the full one.
In short, everyone please note once again that quoting extensive content from elsewhere is not encouraged, that Ship policy is to err on the side of caution in terms of copyright issues, and that we much prefer to read what you have to say here rather than things we could have read elsewhere.
Any such quotes should be properly sourced (with a hyperlink wherever possible), consist of brief extracts, and not make up too much of your post. Thank you.
/hosting
[ 16. May 2014, 05:25: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Apologies, should have used better judgement.
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on
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Just to throw in another interesting comparison, two of the most frequent signatories of debate articles from the Swedish Humanist Society, as well as participants in events to garner attention, are Christer Fuglesang, the first Swede in space, and Björn Ulvaeus of ABBA.
Whereas Fuglesang has a doctor's degree in physics, neither of these are known for their massive philosophical skills, so I'd say evangelicals are not the only group using celebrities as eye-catchers to spread their philosophies.
Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on
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I know it's early in the morning, but the only names I've come up with so far are Gerry Adams and Tony Blair.
And the Pope, of course.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
Lilbuddha, my hostly take is that your list was far too long in relation to your actual post content, as well as being full of broken references. By its length, I believe Wikipedia's rules on reusing its content should apply, and I'm not convinced your reposting in this way complied with them. So I have replaced your edited list with a link to the full one.
/hosting
But the link doesn't work -- too much extra stuff at the end. Try this.
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
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Nobody has mentioned that magnificent English trait of self depreciation yet.
True celebrity sees and understands the passing nature and wafer thin veneer of celebrity surely?
Always remember the well know British speaker Jeff Lucas, who had the pride attack at Spring Harvest some years ago and he was enjoying the adulation as he walked around the campus at Butlins. Then it hit him ''Big in Butlin's for a week.'' The self depreciation kicked in and it burst Jeff Lucas's bubble.
Oh that it would burst a few more bubbles.
Saul the Apostle
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Saul the Apostle
I get the impression that you really dislike 'celebrity Christians'....
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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Does His Holiness The Pope count as a 'celebrity Christian'?
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
True celebrity sees and understands the passing nature and wafer thin veneer of celebrity surely?
"True" celebrity? Celebrity is merely being known. Celebrity confers no special attributes. If one does not have strength of character, becoming well known doesn't change this. People do not change when becoming famous, it is more that potential is realised.
One's character is unknown if never tested.
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
True celebrity sees and understands the passing nature and wafer thin veneer of celebrity surely?
"True" celebrity? Celebrity is merely being known. Celebrity confers no special attributes. If one does not have strength of character, becoming well known doesn't change this. People do not change when becoming famous, it is more that potential is realised.
One's character is unknown if never tested.
Fair point, I think I should rephrase my original comment.
A balanced individual might have been a better phrase. I suppose I was trying to express the fleeting nature of fame and celebrity itself. Also, how the mature handle celebrity status.
Maybe as an example an actor in his/her 50s and they become a ''star'' but they're well rooted and grounded, celebrity may have little effect upon them.
Svetlana, I despise celebrity Christians it is an oxymoron surely?
Saul
[ 16. May 2014, 14:43: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Svetlana, I despise celebrity Christians it is an oxymoron surely?
Saul
Ah, that's why you think it's okay to be rude to them! I understand now.
Maybe you need to join one of those Nonconformist churches where all the really 'famous' people died ages ago. The Methodists deliberately sought not to let anyone become as dominant in the movement as John Wesley. The URC have their important and productive people, but which of them is a celebrity? And the Unitarian dynasties of the past are no more. But hanging out with evangelicals is clearly a no-no for the likes of you!
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Svetlana, I despise celebrity Christians it is an oxymoron surely?
Despise is a very strong word, isn't it?
People who are actually good at something (as opposed to those who are famous for being famous) have celebrity status thrust upon them whether they want it or not, whether they know how to handle it well or not, have complete strangers coming up to them when they think they're 'off duty' and being over-familiar, rude and/or aggressive, then telling the world how they 'met X and he ignored me/told me to bugger off'.
Celebrities who are Christians, Celebrities who are celebrities because they do something like preaching or are performers or, I don't know, are bishops or the Pope, are still just people who sometimes act like idiots.
If what you despise is idiots, they don't have to be a celebrity to be one.
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Svetlana, I despise celebrity Christians it is an oxymoron surely?
Despise is a very strong word, isn't it?
People who are actually good at something (as opposed to those who are famous for being famous) have celebrity status thrust upon them whether they want it or not, whether they know how to handle it well or not, have complete strangers coming up to them when they think they're 'off duty' and being over-familiar, rude and/or aggressive, then telling the world how they 'met X and he ignored me/told me to bugger off'.
Celebrities who are Christians, Celebrities who are celebrities because they do something like preaching or are performers or, I don't know, are bishops or the Pope, are still just people who sometimes act like idiots.
If what you despise is idiots, they don't have to be a celebrity to be one.
That's a very good point. You are right.
Probably saying this badly, but as I see it, humility and a certain egalitarianism are requirements for Christians surely?
I think Jesus gave us a model of servant leadership?
What gets up my nostrils is the copying of worldly celebrity traits and styles in a community which should be flatter, and far less prone to copying the ''world''.
If you see what I mean?
Like I said , one of my weaknesses is I am a bolshy scouser so i actually like pricking someone's balloon; and that can be a bit naughty but I am getting better ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Well slowly anyway.
Saul
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Probably saying this badly, but as I see it, humility and a certain egalitarianism are requirements for Christians surely?
I think Jesus gave us a model of servant leadership?
What gets up my nostrils is the copying of worldly celebrity traits and styles in a community which should be flatter, and far less prone to copying the ''world'.
Yes, but two observations.
Firstly, most of those who are considered celebrities are not leaders or in any leadership role. I'm certainly not, so why do I need to model servant leadership? I attempt to conduct my professional dealings fairly and honestly (which is the only way I'm a 'Christian' writer), but I'm not in charge of anything at my church.
Secondly, if other Christians treated the celebrities amongst them like regular pewsitters, that would be brilliant. What other people think of my limited notoriety is their problem, not mine. I certainly don't want to have to deal with it on a Sunday morning.
Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on
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I always think of Frank Skinner as a celebrity Catholic Christian. He said in his biography he didn't sign autographs in church as he thinks of that as 'God's Gig'.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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We have a major sports celebrity who attends our church. Our church is uniquely geeky/ bookish-- probably the only place in the city where he can go w/o being recognized. It took us months of his attending here before we even figured out who he was. I'm guessing that anonymity is part of the appeal of our shack.
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
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Doc Tor said: quote:
Firstly, most of those who are considered celebrities are not leaders or in any leadership role. I'm certainly not, so why do I need to model servant leadership? I attempt to conduct my professional dealings fairly and honestly (which is the only way I'm a 'Christian' writer), but I'm not in charge of anything at my church.
Secondly, if other Christians treated the celebrities amongst them like regular pewsitters, that would be brilliant. What other people think of my limited notoriety is their problem, not mine. I certainly don't want to have to deal with it on a Sunday morning.
Yes, again fair point. I suppose I was referring specifically to folk who do in fact put themselves ''up front'' the microphone holders and often prima donna musicians who are ''up themselves '' big time and take the ''lime light''. Then when I see this adulation (common in the charismatic/Pentecostal circles I used to meander in) it sort of makes me get into bolshy scouser mode - once again.
I know for example Cliff Richard used to slip in the back of Gerald Coates' church in Surrey somewhere, and I surmise from that he wasn't looking for celebrity, rather looking for spiritual input. I think one has to clearly respect that, but when one takes a public persona then the bubble can be pricked a little.
Saul
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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I knew a moderately well-known actor in Toronto (at one point popular in Australia, from which country he received an astonishing amount of lurid mash notes from teenagers) who used to frequent an early service at a downtown church and told me that he really liked that nobody seemed to know him.
And a former NHL player told me that he attended services only at his old family church in his (name of small Ontario university city supplied) home town, as anywhere else he would have to deal with autograph seekers and telephone-camera snaps. He said that when you start out, there's a thrill to this, but after a while, he preferred to be nobody.
Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on
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I once spent 18 months as a member of the same Nottingham church as Joyce Huggett, at the peak of her fame in the late 1980s. In all that time I saw her in Church only once. Jumping the queue to hold a conversation with her would have been out of the question. I wonder where she went to worship?
For the other type of 'celebrity Christian' Natasha Bedingfield and her parents once dropped in for tea with my brother and his wife, with a mutual friend, at the time when her brother Daniel was just becoming famous and Natasha was unknown. My brother regarded the family as sincere Christians and decent people. Natasha in particular was engaging and genuinely interested in my sister-in-law's art. I suspect a year later the position would have been very different, with the family probably tired of being pestered and craving solitude.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Yes, again fair point. I suppose I was referring specifically to folk who do in fact put themselves ''up front'' the microphone holders and often prima donna musicians who are ''up themselves '' big time and take the ''lime light''. Then when I see this adulation (common in the charismatic/Pentecostal circles I used to meander in) it sort of makes me get into bolshy scouser mode - once again.
It strikes me that you're the one with a problem here, not the performers.
Yes, people consistently telling you how brilliant and holy you are and how much of a blessing you're bringing to them and their lives can cause a surfeit of pride, and the solution is to stop believing the sun shines out of their oratory.
But if musicians are at the front of church, playing for an hour (or two), it is both technically, physically and emotionally demanding. They're probably not going to want to serve tea to the congregation afterwards, or even engage in anything other than small talk with other people in the band.
You could actually try cutting them some slack.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I suppose I was referring specifically to folk who do in fact put themselves ''up front'' the microphone holders and often prima donna musicians who are ''up themselves '' big time and take the ''lime light''...
...if musicians are at the front of church, playing for an hour (or two), it is both technically, physically and emotionally demanding. They're probably not going to want to serve tea to the congregation afterwards, or even engage in anything other than small talk with other people in the band....
It's a mixed bag. There are seem to be celebrities who seek/enjoy celebrity status in the secular world for doing nothing but being celebrities. There may be some in the Christian world too. Or some who think having written a few books or songs makes them deserving of praise (for which they can appear properly humble but be annoyed if the praise doesn't happen enough). I know a woman who wrote a book that was a flash-in-the-pan "best seller", she was flown to NYC for TV interviews - and then nothing, which caught her by surprise, she thought she had achieved Christian celebrity status; she did, for her "15 seconds."
But others who have no celebrity aspirations get accused of "seeking the lime light" just because their role puts them up front and visible - sermonizer, song leader, soloist (instrumental of vocal).
And still others - write a book (write or record a song) that gets notice, do it again (because that's just what you do) and pretty soon some people start treating the author as if special, and then others object that you are "seeking celebrity status." Can't win.
Can be hard to truly tell whether a person in the spotlight is merely being treated as a celebrity by others on those others initiative, or seeking to be regarded as "superior."
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I suppose I was referring specifically to folk who do in fact put themselves ''up front'' the microphone holders and often prima donna musicians who are ''up themselves '' big time and take the ''lime light''...
...if musicians are at the front of church, playing for an hour (or two), it is both technically, physically and emotionally demanding. They're probably not going to want to serve tea to the congregation afterwards, or even engage in anything other than small talk with other people in the band....
It's a mixed bag. There are seem to be celebrities who seek/enjoy celebrity status in the secular world for doing nothing but being celebrities. There may be some in the Christian world too. Or some who think having written a few books or songs makes them deserving of praise (for which they can appear properly humble but be annoyed if the praise doesn't happen enough). I know a woman who wrote a book that was a flash-in-the-pan "best seller", she was flown to NYC for TV interviews - and then nothing, which caught her by surprise, she thought she had achieved Christian celebrity status; she did, for her "15 seconds."
But others who have no celebrity aspirations get accused of "seeking the lime light" just because their role puts them up front and visible - sermonizer, song leader, soloist (instrumental of vocal).
And still others - write a book (write or record a song) that gets notice, do it again (because that's just what you do) and pretty soon some people start treating the author as if special, and then others object that you are "seeking celebrity status." Can't win.
Can be hard to truly tell whether a person in the spotlight is merely being treated as a celebrity by others on those others initiative, or seeking to be regarded as "superior."
I find myself agreeing with Belle Ringer here.
Obviously there are times when one has to use discretion and tact. We have to as Doc Tor said ''cut them some slack.'' - Yes point taken here.
However, the issue surely is that ''celebrity Christians'', that is those who actually take on the trimmings, trappings, kudos of worldly pride , fame and wealth, have fundamentally blown it to an extent?
The term ''celebrity Christian'' is surely an oxymoron?
When I mentioned the famous Christan (now ex) band/group, what was getting up my nose was the arrogance that their success seemed to have surrounded them with. All that adulation can bring out that awful sin, the original sin of Satan - pride.
That was the issue with me and the other thing was the constant fawning by church leaders about ''the boys''. Admittedly they were/are talented and gifted. But one of them in particular is so up himself and anal that it is mind boggling.
Celebrity Christians I would say is a contradiction in terms.
Saul the Apostle
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
Constant fawning by others is not necessarily the fault of those on the receiving end.
The desire to "bring people down a peg or two" comes across as either envy or inferiority complex.
Some people seem to forget that "celebrities" are real people too, whether Christian or otherwise, and should simply be treated with the same politeness and respect that you would extend to others, no more and no less. The more we treat them normally the less temptation we put in their path to pride etc. However we also should not be afraid to recognise and celebrate talent, sucess and hard work in the right ways.
In my experience sometimes someone seeming "up himself" can be due to very different personality types or cultural differences in how people express things. At times I've come to realise that what I interpreted as arrogance was more in my perception than the reality. But YMMV...
[ 17. May 2014, 11:30: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
:
I have already mentioned Jeff Lucas. A fairly well known Christian speaker and quite self effacing.
He speaks about a few areas of life here in this interview and also touches on the ''Christian Celebrity '' topic.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/jeff.lucas.on.faith.doubt.and.christian.celebrities/37403.htm
Saul the Apostle
Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on
:
I'm not terribly annoyed by this phenomenon except when it comes to what could be called "celebrity clergy": televangelists and other preachers who have made a name for themselves by proclaiming the gospel (however they see it) via the mass media. I have found, over the years, that just because they are seen on television, heard on radio, have written books, et.al., it's assumed by some laypeople that what they say carries more weight than what the local pastor says. Obviously, that might actually be true if the preacher has a legitimate, accredited Ph.D., Th.D., or whatever, but just because Reverend Bozo is on TV (oh, how I could name names here!) doesn't mean that he (or she) has any more teaching authority than anyone else. It's comparable to the "If it's on the Internet, it must be true" mindset. Grrrr.
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
I'm not terribly annoyed by this phenomenon except when it comes to what could be called "celebrity clergy": televangelists and other preachers who have made a name for themselves by proclaiming the gospel (however they see it) via the mass media.
I agree with you generally, with two additions / caveats:
Firstly, you mentioned having a qualification as something that might make you trust a 'celebrity Christian' more. I get what you mean, but if this trust is more or less automatic (oh, this person, has an MDiv etc. so I'll trust them) then isn't that merely a different form of the mistake being made by people who blindly trust a preacher / author etc. who has a media profile?
Which leads on to my second point: IMO the healthy thing is for all of us to take part in the community-based search for truth, revelation and God's ongoing guidance. We shouldn't ever suspend our critical faculties and our own communion with God, whether it's a 'celebrity Christian', a highly-qualified minister, a well-loved public figure, or a denominational leader who is seeking to guide or instruct us.
Blind acceptance and the discouraging of regular folks' own engagement with God and scriptures are highly dangerous things IMO.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
However, the issue surely is that ''celebrity Christians'', that is those who actually take on the trimmings, trappings, kudos of worldly pride , fame and wealth, have fundamentally blown it to an extent?
The term ''celebrity Christian'' is surely an oxymoron?
Maybe we need two different terns to discuss the issue because "celebrity Christian" covers both those unwillingly adulated by others and those seeking adulation. The second meaning is an oxymoron, yes.
But the first group, the oxymoron is in their "followers" not in themselves. What term should be used about people who successfully do things of value that put them in the spotlight even though they are not looking to be adored? So when someone objects to celebrity Christians the two groups treated as celebrities by others can easily be distinguished?
Yes some seek prideful status. No that does not reflect Christian values. On the other hand doing excellent work and knowing it is excellent and being delighted if others recognize it as excellent, is humility - truth awareness. The error is when awareness of excellence crosses over to craving adulation.
A few decades ago I read an article about the evangelical world's then habit of grabbing any baby christian who had a famous name - recent convert football pro for example - and throw him onto the speaker circuit, lots of audiences thrilling at his story of how he met God, telling him he was a great Christian leader with a special message. Baby christian with big secular name would start believing the adulation, think themselves special, and crash spiritually, demanding special favors or exemptions from moral guidelines because of their supposed specialness.
No new Christian should be held in the public spotlight as if their proper place. Mature Christians have a better chance of dismissing the approving shouts as mere noise, and a better chance of having people around them providing reality check.
But adulation seeking celebrity Christian often became that way because that's what others taught them to expect.
The enemy is (again) us.
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
However, the issue surely is that ''celebrity Christians'', that is those who actually take on the trimmings, trappings, kudos of worldly pride , fame and wealth, have fundamentally blown it to an extent?
The term ''celebrity Christian'' is surely an oxymoron?
Maybe we need two different terns to discuss the issue because "celebrity Christian" covers both those unwillingly adulated by others and those seeking adulation. The second meaning is an oxymoron, yes.
But the first group, the oxymoron is in their "followers" not in themselves. What term should be used about people who successfully do things of value that put them in the spotlight even though they are not looking to be adored? So when someone objects to celebrity Christians the two groups treated as celebrities by others can easily be distinguished?
Yes some seek prideful status. No that does not reflect Christian values. On the other hand doing excellent work and knowing it is excellent and being delighted if others recognize it as excellent, is humility - truth awareness. The error is when awareness of excellence crosses over to craving adulation.
A few decades ago I read an article about the evangelical world's then habit of grabbing any baby christian who had a famous name - recent convert football pro for example - and throw him onto the speaker circuit, lots of audiences thrilling at his story of how he met God, telling him he was a great Christian leader with a special message. Baby christian with big secular name would start believing the adulation, think themselves special, and crash spiritually, demanding special favors or exemptions from moral guidelines because of their supposed specialness.
No new Christian should be held in the public spotlight as if their proper place. Mature Christians have a better chance of dismissing the approving shouts as mere noise, and a better chance of having people around them providing reality check.
But adulation seeking celebrity Christian often became that way because that's what others taught them to expect.
The enemy is (again) us.
BR
I would generally agree with pretty much all you say.
Having seen posturing in the Charismatic/Pentecostal churches over some years, perhaps explains my own views somewhat. Sadly, often in the USA (and to a lesser degree the UK), there is a cult of celebrity Christianity, don't you think?
When someone is successful let us applaud that success, of course.
However, when it is proud, self serving and focused often on the love of money, power and prestige it is, surely, questionable?
I am now an Anglican in the Church of England and it is refreshing to go to church and not see people ''performing'' although i am sure some Vicar's would say they do this every Sunday! But having been in the Charismatic/Pentcostal wing of the church I have a highly attuned b******t detector, honed over many years.
Saul
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Having seen posturing in the Charismatic/Pentecostal churches over some years, perhaps explains my own views somewhat.
I am now an Anglican in the Church of England and it is refreshing to go to church and not see people ''performing''...
LOL, friends whose father is TEC clergy say he LOVES the spotlight that's why he got ordained. (Oh boy does he proudly boast about his "great" sermons, which leave the congregation looking puzzled by the theme-less rambling.)
You get all personality kinds in all denominations. Personally I like when people allow some of their personality to show instead of making church a robotic event. YMMV, and that's OK!
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
Belle Ringer wrote:
quote:
LOL, friends whose father is TEC clergy say he LOVES the spotlight that's why he got ordained. (Oh boy does he proudly boast about his "great" sermons, which leave the congregation looking puzzled by the theme-less rambling.)
Joan Didion's essay about Bishop James Pike makes him sound like a narcissistic showman.
Though, Didion was probably biased, because apparently Pike announced the completion of Grace Cathederal, which she considered to be something akin to blasphemy.
Plus, at the time she wrote the essay, Didion tended to hold left-wing politics in an intuitive disdain.
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
:
As a kind of tangent. Giftedness in one area doesn't necessarily imply maturity of character.
In fact there are some kinds of giftedness (art in particular) which often go hand in hand with immaturity primarily because of the age at which they are normally developed.
So tales of 'so and so-famous Christian is a complete arse' disappoint me a little, but I'm not surprised by them.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Joan Didion's essay about Bishop James Pike makes him sound like a narcissistic showman.
Living in Pike's old diocese, and knowing quite a few people who knew him (read : were persecuted by him), leads me to believe that Joan Didion wasn't exaggerating.
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Just read this blog post about the 'celebrity Christians' phenomenon and thought I'd put it up here to see what people think. The author Donald Miller said a little while ago that he rarely attends church services, and I think Rob Bell might have said the same at some point. This post gave me an insight into why they've taken that decision - from the article:
quote:
Miller explained that going to church for him was really difficult, because kind, good-willed people were constantly coming up to him asking him to help with their different projects, or for book-writing advice, or they just flooded him with requests to get together to talk. Donald Miller’s problem is that he is a celebrity.
Do you think this is a big problem in Christianity today? Do we have a massively unhealthy attitude towards Christians who've achieved some level of fame? Or are people like Miller and Bell being over-sensitive and selfish?
Just reading the article that SCK referred to, it is about America.
The USA is similar to the UK, but just writ large.
Our home group has just been looking at 1 Peter and like the book of James in the Bible (referred to in the article), it seems to have something to say about the hierarchical structures of the day, so absolutely relevant to 2014.
Basically, the world's ''celebrity'' model is fundamentally hierarchical (and corrosive), both in the world of work and also, say, show business.
Surely the key point is that the church and Christians should not mimic that hierarchical power structure?
The churches we go to should be counter cultural establishment, where as in the book of James, there shouldn't be power structures / hirerarchies?
As a footnote a few years ago I read ''Mc Queen'' the biography by Christopher Sandford, about the legendary US actor Steve McQueen. He became a genuine convert to Christianity in his later years and regularly slipped into the back of a small local chapel near where he lived. He knew the power of fame and celebrity big time, yet he wanted to be ''normal'' and be part of that little church community without all the adulation and emptiness that celebrity brings; I was quite touched by his genuine conversion and his desire for simplicity and non recognition in his church.
Saul
[ 21. May 2014, 06:09: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
This is nothing to do with 'hierarchical structure' or anything else, but to do with people: the so-called ordinary people who attend a church and the 'celebrities' who go to a church.
If a celebrity feels put-upon by people at the church they attend surely it is not beyond their wit to say something along the lines of please, I'm not here as the person you may read about in the paper or whose books you borrow from the library, I'm here just to be a member of the congregation. That should not cause offence to anyone but should make it clear they don't want to be hounded.
We have several 'celebrity' regulars: the easiest thing would be for us to ask them to open the fete, do a fundraising talk/gig, etc, etc: we don't because they we feel it fairer to wait for them to offer - and sometimes they do. But the reason they stay with us is, I know, partly because they cease to be 'A/B/C-list XXX' when they come to church and are simply a private person, same as the rest of us.
But there are some celebs who like to be noticed - indeed can get quite shirty if they don't get the fawning - and I suspect that their number must include a fair number of so-called 'celebrity Christians'.
Remember the old joke: the default answer to a furious 'Don't you know who I am?' should always be 'No, but I'll take you home and you can ask the nice people there.' ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
:
That reminds me of the story (probably apocryphal) of the Queen Mum visiting a care home. One of the residents chatted to her with such ease that eventually she gently asked 'Do you know who I am?'. The resident replied sympathetically 'No, love, but pop in the office over there and ask Matron - she's got it on a card.'
Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
That reminds me of the story (probably apocryphal) of the Queen Mum visiting a care home. One of the residents chatted to her with such ease that eventually she gently asked 'Do you know who I am?'. The resident replied sympathetically 'No, love, but pop in the office over there and ask Matron - she's got it on a card.'
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
L'organist said:
quote:
Remember the old joke: the default answer to a furious 'Don't you know who I am?' should always be 'No, but I'll take you home and you can ask the nice people there.'
I'm loving it.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Best way to diffuse the celebrity aura - a bit of wicked humour ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Saul the Apostle
[ 21. May 2014, 18:23: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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