Ship of Fools: Why can't I believe this?

Thread: Why can't I believe this? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

God's love is infinite and unconditional. I have been brought up to believe this and do in my head. What part of "infinite and unconditional" don't you understand?

Yet I have this deep feeling that God does not love me, has rejected me, that I am bound for hell. Every time a little thing in my life goes wrong, I think God has it in for me. I know that I have sinned, and I keep confessing and asking for forgiveness, but I just seem to keep on sinning.

So that is why God has rejected me. I am full of sin and can't stop myself. So I can never be good enough for Him.

As for your arguments that Christ died for us and therefore our sins are forgiven, I believe that. But if we keep on sinning we are crucifying Him again, therefore cannot be forgiven.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

How about "It isn't your job to do the judgment" ?

God, in His mysterious way will look after what pleases Him.

I know I've linked this before, but it bears repeating: try reading "A Vision of Judgment" by H. G. Wells (1899)*

This is a plausible method for God to use in dealing with you.

*If you've linked that before, be warned that the site has been reorganised, so update the link

[ 29. May 2014, 23:13: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

Have you ever come across someone who is a really good parent, who loves their children fully and unconditionally, wants the best for them, wants them to grow up to be the best that they can be? Who is willing to go through the hard graft and heartache to do so?

Our picture of God has to at least be as good and beautiful as that. Anything less, and it's a distortion. Does a good parent reject their children when they screw up? When they screw up again and again? No. A good parent never rejects their child. How much more our heavenly parent, from whom the whole notion of parenthood comes?

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

From people I've chatted with over many years, I'd guess most people don't *really* believe God loves them. God loves people, sure, but God loving "me, individually", seems to be much harder to absorb.

When I asked a TEC person who leads a lot of conference about it, she said feeling abandoned, feeling like God doesn't love you, is the original sin. I don't know that she means it in any specific Augustiniam sense (or maybe she does), just that it's pervasive and affects a lot of our behaviors. If we don't really believe God loves us, we aren't eager to spend time alone with God, we don't really believe God's guidelines are in our best interests, etc.

A young mother said she didn't really believe God loves *her*. Surely she sins too much, isn't good enough for God to care about.

I asked her - what could your two year old do or fail to do that would cause you to stop loving her? "Nothing!" The concept of not loving her child was unimaginable.

That's you to God.

Ask God to help you see and believe it.

Posted by Candide (# 15755) on :

Christianity, and most religion in general, can be a rather powerful additional burden for the depressed. (I'm not sure if the OP suffers from that, but I know I have.)

The ability to accept someone else loving you, tends to correlate with ones ability to love oneself. If you don't really appreciate yourself, then it becomes increasingly harder to accept that someone else does. (And that goes double for deities, who rarely tends to use our language to say "I love you".)

A substantial amount of our ideas about God, tends to be just us projecting our ideas about ourselves, our surroundings and so forth. The idea of God has always been malleable, and shaped according to both societal and personal needs.
(None of that says anything about the existence or non-existence of God, of course. The human idea of God, and the divinity itself, are two separate things).

I'm not so sure a belief in God hating oneself, can be prayed away. It really all depends on the person having that belief, but it might be better to view it as a symptom of a bigger problem.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
God's love is infinite and unconditional. I have been brought up to believe this and do in my head. What part of "infinite and unconditional" don't you understand?

Yet I have this deep feeling that God does not love me, has rejected me, that I am bound for hell. Every time a little thing in my life goes wrong, I think God has it in for me. I know that I have sinned, and I keep confessing and asking for forgiveness, but I just seem to keep on sinning.

So that is why God has rejected me. I am full of sin and can't stop myself. So I can never be good enough for Him.

As for your arguments that Christ died for us and therefore our sins are forgiven, I believe that. But if we keep on sinning we are crucifying Him again, therefore cannot be forgiven.

Okay, I was in exactly this boat for many years. It took a long, long time before the truth soaked down from my head all the way into my heart. And I still have days I feel this way. I think it goes with being a human sinner, which automatically includes having a badly distorted picture of God.

I don't know if there's anything I can say on a bulletin board that can help. But first of all, find the oldest, most compassionate and wise Christian you know--you may prefer a retired pastor, but a lay person will do fine provided you have confidence in them. You want the kind of person everyone automatically brings their troubles to--the kind who breathes God's love and holiness as naturally as oxygen. The kind of person the children and dogs follow, because they see Jesus in him/her.

Find that person, and go tell him/her exactly what you have told us. Then let the Holy Spirit speak through that person to you. It'll do far, far more good than anything we can type.

[By the way, your understanding of Scripture is mistaken and causing you unnecessary pain here. That's why I'm thinking you might want to find a retired pastor with a decent education. Such a person can show you what the Greek really says and give you the comfort that your English translation, whatever it is, is failing to communicate. Because verb tenses matter, and English doesn't do so hot in translating the Greek in a few of those guilt-inducing passages. If you totally can't find someone like I've described, settle for the love, wisdom and holiness, and ask about the Greek in Kerygmania. There are plenty of us Greek geeks who'll be glad to help.]

Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :

This is something I struggle with very much too.

I often find myself praying for God to just send me a sign that the way I express my sexuality, gender and love for others is actually okay. Of course I get no angel or voices from above (oh you unbelieving generation) but I think I miss it when I am told more subtlely.

But then, the otherstday I reflected the other day that partly what I want is to be endorsed by God. I want my life and all that I do to somehow fit, without all the inconvenience of having to acknowledge some of what I do is not compatible with a lived faith. So for me there's a dash of pride in there masquerading as feeling unloved, a defence mechanism I suppose.

There is also that we are all too human, we judge ourselves and God by human standards. That is neither bad nor good, it just is. We need to be aware of ourselves doing this and steadily it will chip away at our fears of inadequacy and utter sinfulness and we will understand what grace is.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

You're normal Jude.

This is what mud, pregnant with Spirit, must suffer, must experience, must be while becoming, whilst rising, being risen, drawn to the light.

The Spirit yearns, howls and whispers in love with us.

All will be well therefore all IS well.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Thomas Merton has a poem about how he really WANTS to do God's will, but he is not sure if he is REALLY; but that he is sure that his WANTING is as pleasing to God as if he actually DID.

I find that of great comfort.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I remember on a meditation retreat, one day where I walked up this Welsh hill, and felt utterly worthless, and it all poured out of me. But the next day, I walked up the same hill, in the snow actually, and I felt known and loved. Indeed, everything consists of love.

I'm not sure how that transformation works, but it can work. For myself, it's partly a question of fully accepting the worthlessness in the first place, but I appreciate that that might not work for everyone, since it might suffocate them.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

I wonder how much of this struggle really has to do with our own personal backgrounds and experience rather than theology. I know I have never had the slightest difficulty believe that God loves me and accepts me unconditionally, and a friend who found this much harder to believe suggested it might be attributable to me having parents who were good at unconditional love and made me feel secure. But then it seems a bit harsh to suggest that everyone who struggles with the concept of God's unconditional love is necessarily the victim of bad parenting.

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
God's love is infinite and unconditional. I have been brought up to believe this and do in my head. What part of "infinite and unconditional" don't you understand?...

My understanding is that (in Christian terms) God's love is conditional on our repentance, i.e. on our stopping sinning, or at least making a genuine effort to do so, but that He fully appreciates how difficult it is for us humans to do so.

In practical terms, I think it means striking a balance between being too hard on ourselves for continuing to sin (where 'sin' might mean continuing to practise a bad habit, for example), and being too soft on ourselves, neither of which is at all helpful in stopping us 'sinning', but that we may (or should) ask for help in doing so, and know that our request will be answered - if we set our course towards God, then he will provide a following wind, as somebody once put it. So that if we do our bit, then God will do His bit, so to speak.

So maybe God's patience is infinite and unconditional, rather than his love. [Smile]

[ 30. May 2014, 11:36: Message edited by: Holy Smoke ]

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
God's love is infinite and unconditional. I have been brought up to believe this and do in my head. What part of "infinite and unconditional" don't you understand?...
My understanding is that (in Christian terms) God's love is conditional on our repentance, i.e. on our stopping sinning, or at least making a genuine effort to do so, but that He fully appreciates how difficult it is for us humans to do so.

Paul said that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. That doesn't seem to line up with your view here.

--Tom Clune

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
My understanding is that (in Christian terms) God's love is conditional on our repentance, i.e. on our stopping sinning, or at least making a genuine effort to do so, but that He fully appreciates how difficult it is for us humans to do so.

I disagree. My love for my daughter isn't dependent on her good behaviour. It will never disappear, no matter what she does. That love can only be a shadow of God's love.

Our wellbeing and salvation is conditional on repentance, and many would argue that our ability to access God's Love is conditional on our repentance (I would disagree). The love itself is not conditional on anything.

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I wonder how much of this struggle really has to do with our own personal backgrounds and experience rather than theology. I know I have never had the slightest difficulty believe that God loves me and accepts me unconditionally, and a friend who found this much harder to believe suggested it might be attributable to me having parents who were good at unconditional love and made me feel secure. But then it seems a bit harsh to suggest that everyone who struggles with the concept of God's unconditional love is necessarily the victim of bad parenting.

I do think our experience of our parents does have a profound effect, but it's not a simple as a straightforward correlation. The writer who has help me understand God's unconditional love and nature as a parent is Brennan Manning, and from his accounts, neither of his parents fell into the 'good parent' category (especially his mum).

Posted by Candide (# 15755) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I wonder how much of this struggle really has to do with our own personal backgrounds and experience rather than theology.

Quite likely, a lot. Once the chief attribute of divinity becomes the judging idea of God, then there's no big leap from feeling less than great about yourself, to believing God feels less than great about you.

That's a problem with the distance between God and man. Uncertainties, possibilities and maybes tend to be influenced by our self-image. And just as easily in a destructive way, as in a constructive one.

I think some of the problem is the rhetoric, that can easily add to the burden. "God never turns away from you, it is you turning away from him", and similar phrases are quite common.
To someone who doesn't feel God's love, and never has, despite having tried his or her best, that implies that this person never has really turned toward God. Which is just another way of saying "it's your fault".

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

I have a feeling that if we could truly appreciate the love of God it would be terrifying, in a raw ultimate primeval power sort of way.

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

I used to believe that about myself but that was largely down to crap preaching and duff theology.

What I wasn't told from the pulpit:

1) Definition of sin changes through Biblical history, with more and more rules being created as religious systems take over... there of plenty of things the church frowns at that have no mention in the Bible. God actually warned the Jews not to add to the list of laws, but of course they, and today some narcissistic church leaders just love to find some more sins to control the laity and keep them in a guilty state. A lot of the sexual guilt induced by religion has nothing to do with what's actually in the Bible...
2) Jesus tells Peter to keep forgiving those who come back asking for forgiveness. The implication is that God does the same for us.
3) Jesus said he would not reject anyone who came to him. So no one is going to hell on the basis of him refusing to forgive them.
4) He also said only he (Jesus) has the right to judge, not even God.

The more rules you end up living by, the easier it is to feel more condemned. The more condemned you feel, the more you are tempted to sin to alleviate the guilt. That's why I dislike Neil T Anderson's theology so much. That daft 'Freedom in Christ' course is almost guaranteed to tie anyone up in knots. Stick to love God and love others, and it you fail Jesus will forgive you, and its a lot easier IMO. The focus then goes onto helping others rather than religious navel gazing.

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

Don't know if this will help, Jude, but here's someone who seems to have struggled with similar feelings.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Jesus forgave from the cross, not just some vague "everyone" but also the people who were specifically mocking, torturing, killing him. They weren't repentant.

That's the point about love -- nothing can end it. Nothing we do or don't do. Jesus demonstrated that.

I've heard the theory God loves only the repentant. Jesus on the cross showed otherwise.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

@OP

God is unlike a parent, who might try to prevent problems or to cushion the consequences in the present. Consider a child who disobeys and runs into the street after a ball. A parent will prevent the child from doing this. A parent will call emergency services and wait by the hospital bed, providing immediate comfort, and will pay for any ancillary needs. Immediate, and tangible. God doesn't do that.

God doesn't provide any immediate mitigation of any specific problems, except for felt support. God won't stop the death of the child who dies from the injuries in the above example, but is available for support to cope. Apparently some people have had miracles or things they have experienced as God's intervention. I can't really quarrel with their belief about their specific miraculous occurrence, except to note that because God avoids intervening with people like me, that it seems to offend the idea that God loves us all, and suggests a hierarchy of beloved humanity. I regret that I am not part of this elect. My conclusion that God supports and does not intervene is what allows me to maintain faith. Without I might have to become agnostic.

So we must never take the absence of God actually doing something active in our lives as any evidence of God loving, hating or disregarding. This is not evidence.

You sense of sin, reminds me of discussions from years past of scrupulosity, where the sense of guilt is excessive. You might consider consulting clergy about this.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Jude,I happened to come across a passage in The Collected Letters of Dorothy Sayers*

quote:
...you should love yourself as much as is just. You must be precious to yourself because you are precious to God, remembering that in His sight your neighbor is equally precious, and precious in the same way. You must not do damage to your own soul or to your neighbor's; you must respect and take all reasonable care of your body and his, because it is God's property, and should not be treated with careless irreverence. You must not love yourself more than God--and neither must you love your neighbor more than God, nor think that your love for him is any excuse for offending God. You may rightly put your neighbor's interest before your own, because that is charity; but you must not put them before God's interests, because that is idolatry. Your love for your neighbor must not be possessive, or jealous, or degrading, or sloppily sentimental, because that kind of love is good neither for him or for you. If he is an unlovable person, you must remember that God (however odd it may seem to you) loves him, just as He loves you (however odd that may seem to other people or even to yourself). If your neighbor is wicked, you must contrive to love him, while hating his wickedness, just as you manage to have a continual friendly concern for yourself, even in the moments when you do not think very highly of your own behavior. And if you are ever tempted to despair of yourself or despise and hate yourself, you must resist that temptation, since it is not for you to treat any of God's creatures like that; and so also with your neighbor.

The value of this quote to me is that it connects the proper attitude towards oneself with the idea that we are all God's, and judgment is his business, not ours. Somewhere in one of Paul's letters is the question, "Who are you to judge another's servant?" You belong to God, and judgment is his province, not yours.

v.3 1944-1950 ed. Barbara Reynolds pub. The Dorothy Sayers Society 1998 p.411-412

Moo

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I'd like to introduce a word at this point that I feel might be very helplful: blameless.

My tradition - Wesleyan holiness - teaches that we are not just seen to be holy (imputed righteousness), we are actually made holy (imparted righteousness).

This means that something actually happens to us - sin is not only forgiven, but cleansed away - our motives are purified, our desires are purified. The closer we are to God the more pained we feel at our sin, the more sensitive we are to the times we fall.

BUT, through confession and by grace alone we are made holy, we are holy, no matter how weak or faltering we might be.

Blamelessness describes us perfectly - this is the state where God has cleansed the heart, filled it with perfect love, but when we sin he sees nothing in us that is worthy of blame because it's not done through deliberate wickedness but through weakness.

The verse that helps us is 1 Thessalonians 5 v 23:

quote:
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[ 30. May 2014, 21:56: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

Read Faust and be comforted.

IMO Goethe had it about right.

LAFF

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Yet I have this deep feeling that God does not love me, has rejected me, that I am bound for hell. Every time a little thing in my life goes wrong, I think God has it in for me. I know that I have sinned, and I keep confessing and asking for forgiveness, but I just seem to keep on sinning.

So that is why God has rejected me. I am full of sin and can't stop myself. So I can never be good enough for Him.

I would like to offer one possible way of looking at this, with the idea that you can ignore it or use it, whichever helps you more.

If you do ever find that you are meeting with some success, do you expect that you will take credit for that success? If not, it can make just as much sense to avoid accepting blame for failure.

In general, we all experience two competing inclinations: one to want to sin and one to want to do what's right, which means obeying God for those of us who are religious. Neither inclination comes from any choice we have made, so it doesn't make sense to take credit or blame for either. But we do have to choose between them as to which one we try to follow through on. And we have to choose time after time, over and over and over again, usually for pretty much our entire natural life.

The reason why is a discussion all by itself, but I think it's true that none of us can succeed in stopping all by ourselves. I would also be suspicious of anyone who says it's much easier than what you are experiencing. Which is why I think the letters to the seven churches in the opening chapters of Revelation stress perseverance so consistently. And why I think the Sermon on the Mount says that we are blessed when we hunger and thirst after righteousness rather than when we are filled with righteousness.

I think the main thing God wants from us is to not give up trying. Nowhere does the Bible say we should expect to succeed, only that we should try.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

An image I have of God is that God wears glasses. That's right, glasses. Each of the lens has a cross etched on it. When God looks at me, God doesn't see me as much as God sees the cross. God tells me my sins have already been paid for because of that cross.

As a Lutheran I also know that this side of eternity I am always a saint and a sinner at the same time. I will always be struggling with my behaviors but that does not mean God abandons me to live in a personal hell.

It does sound that there might be something else going on in your original post, Jude. You might want to consider whether you might be struggling with depression. I would encourage you to talk to your physician about what you are experiencing. Most likely your physician will put you on an antidepressant and refer you to a counselor.

I know because I have been there too.

Here is a quick article to consider

http://drgrantmullen.com/q-a-forums/does-depression-have-spiritual-symptoms/

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
An image I have of God is that God wears glasses. That's right, glasses. Each of the lens has a cross etched on it. When God looks at me, God doesn't see me as much as God sees the cross. God tells me my sins have already been paid for because of that cross.

I get the point of this, but just yesterday I was telling God how desperately I wanted him to see me, the real me, sins and all--because if he can love and forgive me after seeing that, he really does love me and I can relax.

And yes, I do know I was asking for what already is true--he does see me, he does love me. But I have to repeat it sometimes just to keep it firmly in my own mind that this is true. It took me a long time to get to the point where I felt I could trust him to know the real me. And there's nobody else I trust that way.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And yes, I do know I was asking for what already is true--he does see me, he does love me. But I have to repeat it sometimes just to keep it firmly in my own mind that this is true. It took me a long time to get to the point where I felt I could trust him to know the real me. And there's nobody else I trust that way.

To me this is the most comforting thing about God. I can't tell him anything he doesn't already know. It's a great relief to know that he disapproves of some of the things I say and do, but he's never horrified. He knows me well enough to know what I'm capable of.

Moo

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I held M. in my arms on Friday night. Hard. He's ex-SAS, hard as f..., had to leave L. after being shot by a guy he'd gone in to 'business' with after serving Her Majesty hard together. He murdered the guy who got his daughter on to heroin. The police shrug at that. But they do watch him for being an armed robber.

His heroin addict ex-wife and daughter come too. He's on methadone. Trying to be. And at least shared needles once too often. He's wait for blood test results. He ain't feeling good. He ain't looking good. Hep C at least. More like AIDS I reckon. Hopefully it's just lymphoma ...

He loves his ex. She loves him.

I love him.

He loves me.

He sobbed in my arms on the street surrounded by other broken guys.

And Jesus CAN'T fix him? Not JUST love him? WON'T fix him? Even I love him. I can't fix him.

Believe.

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

Thank you for all your replies. I found many of them greatly helpful.

LambChopped - you say that I have misunderstood scripture. What have I misunderstood?

I will reply to some of the others later.

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

Originally posted by tclune:

quote:
Paul said that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. That doesn't seem to line up with your view here.

I used to go to a study group that put the emphasis on the "were". They seemed to think this meant that once somebody had become a Christian, they would not sin again.

Arminian - I did "that daft Freedom in Christ" course and found it entirely counter-productive.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

If I did not believe God loves me well I would go mad . Do I think I am good enough for God ? Not by a long mark. But scripture tells us that God is love and the actions of Jesus in dying for the sins of the world are evidence of that love. Yesterday 0606 wen heard the refrain of "No greater love hath a man but he lays down his life for a friend" . I would argue god did that inn Jesus and afterwards says come on I am with you. Tommorrown 0806 is Pentecost
and it's the poer of God's spirit that enables us to keep on going.
Why would i go mad if all this was false ? I have certain limitations on my life, I have lost very close friends & parents and sometimes I feel very alone. This site helps me feel connected with a larger believing world . So shipmates all thank you
[Smile]

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
I used to go to a study group that put the emphasis on the "were". They seemed to think this meant that once somebody had become a Christian, they would not sin again.

Everyone sins. Even the holiest among us fall into temptation at one time or another. God's mercy, however, is remarkable. Think about how long God tolerated a fallen world before the Flood. Think about how far God was willing to go to try and find a way to save the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Consider that not only were these the wickedest of men, but this was also before Christ shed His blood for our sins.

It has been more than two millennia since Christ's Ascension. What is taking Him so long? It is His endless capacity for mercy that continues to stay His hand from the Final Judgment.

Because of His Son's unbelievable sacrifice, we are redeemed. We cannot being to fathom God's ability to forgive us. Put your trust in Him, in His love, mercy, and grace. Jesus' death has freed us from sin's shackles. Do not brood over your human weakness; instead, thank God for His amazing sacrifice on our behalf.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Thank you for all your replies. I found many of them greatly helpful.

LambChopped - you say that I have misunderstood scripture. What have I misunderstood?

I will reply to some of the others later.

Based on the wording of what you wrote, I suspect very strongly that you are worried about a passage or two in Hebrews, and another one in I John. In which case we need to discuss the meaning of the present tense in Greek, and its common mistranslation into English... PM me if you like, or we could go to Kerygmania. But the scary bits of these passages are not speaking of believers who are upset and grieving because they keep falling into sin again and again and again. They are speaking of hardened "don't care" people who wouldn't take forgiveness if it were offered them on a silver platter.

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Thank you for all your replies. I found many of them greatly helpful.

I will reply to some of the others later.

ISTM there's not much point in knowing you are sa(l)ved if you don't feel sa(l)ved.

Salvation as an intellectual precept leaves a great deal to be desired in the gut feeling department. And until that intellectual precept descends into your viscera, then your viscera will continue to send you the queasy message that all is not OK.

What is the solution, then?

Send any feeling, thought or sensation that doesn't feel like salvation to Him.

All uncertainty, unworthiness, doubt, guilt, shame, have physical sensations. Thank them. Forgive them for all their sins of commission and omission. Then give those sensations explicit instructions to go to Christ to be healed.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

This has worked remarkably well for me. I recommend it.

Hugs to you.

LAFF

[ 08. June 2014, 01:37: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

Insecurity's a bitch. I have met very few Christian's who are totally, absolutely secure in the FACT that they are known through and through and still loved for all eternity by God.

It breaks my heart when I see the faithful gathered in a nursing home, after a lifetime of faithful devotion and service, still needing reassurance of salvation.

If my children were so scared of me, and uncertain I ever loved them, it would make me very sad about the relationship I have with them.

The everlasting arms are there, held out to you. Just run in to them. Sometimes what we most need to feel and to know is the strong heartbeat of God so close to our own.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Thank you for all your replies. I found many of them greatly helpful.

I will reply to some of the others later.
ISTM there's not much point in knowing you are sa(l)ved if you don't feel sa(l)ved.

I'm not convinced that either are genuinely possible. There will always be doubt, except for the few gifted in self-hypnosis.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
ISTM there's not much point in knowing you are sa(l)ved if you don't feel sa(l)ved.

I'm not convinced that either are genuinely possible. There will always be doubt, except for the few gifted in self-hypnosis.

Karl, some of us are convinced that we have a direct perception of God. This is not a claim to special holiness; it's just the way we are made. I realize that you and many other people are not made that way.

Moo

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
ISTM there's not much point in knowing you are sa(l)ved if you don't feel sa(l)ved.

I'm not convinced that either are genuinely possible. There will always be doubt, except for the few gifted in self-hypnosis. [/QB]

You know what? It's fine with me that you would rather dwell in doubt than certainty. It's fine with me that you believe that neither knowing nor feeling salvation is something that is possible for humanity, despite the fact that it is promised to us through the events on Calvary.

This is fine with me.

What's not fine with me is the sneer and the sarcasm towards me personally, and the implication that I am somehow gifted in self-delusion.

I am a grown woman. I have spent 4 decades, four . decades, working to eliminate the personal barriers to feeling the certainty of this promise.

I have shared the method with everyone here that finally brought me to an understanding, relief and personal certainty.

It involves appreciation, and forgiveness. This is the recipe that was prescribed to us by the Christ while He walked on the earth.

It's not rocket science.

You're welcome to continue to doubt, but I want you to know that I do not appreciate your tone. After a shore leave of over 4 years, it's disappointing to d=say the least.

LAFF

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Well, instead of getting huffy, how about telling me the basis on which you have this certainty? How you know that it's not a delusion. All you've given so far looks to me like an excercise in self-hypnosis

[ 12. June 2014, 08:47: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
ISTM there's not much point in knowing you are sa(l)ved if you don't feel sa(l)ved.

I'm not convinced that either are genuinely possible. There will always be doubt, except for the few gifted in self-hypnosis.
Karl, some of us are convinced that we have a direct perception of God. This is not a claim to special holiness; it's just the way we are made. I realize that you and many other people are not made that way.

Moo

I agree with that, but I was deeply affected when I realized that many of them are not Christian. The man who seemed closest to God, that I have ever met, was a Sufi, and in fact, even some Buddhists strike me as God-intoxicated. Well, it's just part of my journey; as they say in Zen, or they might do, the mountain is slowly climbing up me.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

K:LS It's an exercise in affirmation, declaration of truth against our adversarial self (AKA the World, the flesh and the Devil).

Stretch mate. Reach. It's what a heaven's for. If some feel they've grasped and been grasped, then ... they have.

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Well, instead of getting huffy, how about telling me the basis on which you have this certainty? How you know that it's not a delusion. All you've given so far looks to me like an excercise in self-hypnosis

LOL I'll answer that if you tell me how do you know your doubts are not a delusion?

I have a better idea, why don't you try it yourself and tell me what your experiences are.

Pick a nagging doubt. Do the exercise on it every time it comes up until it doesn't appear any more. Share with us how you feel to be relieved of a nagging doubt.

How does it improve your cognition? Your decision making ability? Your ability to rise into a good mood and to remain there in the face of trying circumstances? Your ability to appreciate what-is?

Let me know.

LAFF

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Tried that for years as a Good Little Evangelical. It didn't work.

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Tried that for years as a Good Little Evangelical. It didn't work.

If the doctor told you to take a pill every time you felt a pain until it went away, would you do it? Why would you stop if you didn't know how many times you would have to take the pill?

You would stop if you didn't want to be relieved of the condition. Or if you believed that the condition was incurable, and you needed to prove yourself right.

Which is why I say it's fine with me if that's how you want to do life.

Just don't imply that your delusion is sanity, and that mine is insanity.

Thanks in advance.

LAFF

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I prefer living with doubt and uncertainty to vainly trying to make it go away. And my experience of doctors is that they ask whether medication is helping and review it if it's making no difference.

Possibly we're both over-generalising. You're assuming that your method will work for anyone because it works for you; I'm assuming that certainty is impossible because I can't see how it can be otherwise.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

There's two main reasons I find it difficult to believe God loves me.

First, I have no idea what love is. (Complicated by the fact that words often seem to mean something totally different when applied to God - e.g. "justice": infinite punishment for a finite transgression. Hm...)

Second, all through my life, my "brother" and "sister" Christians have taken delight in telling me he doesn't love me, or at least that he doesn't want my company. I've had everyone from St Paul to Fred Phelps send me that message, so who am I to question?

(Bitter? Me? Damn right.)

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Do you want to be happy?

Posted by Frankenstein (# 16198) on :

As one who was encouraged to make an act of contrition before going to sleep... just in case!
Dying with a mortal sin on ones soul equals eternal damnation.
The people who preached this Dogma frequently led less than exemplary lives...

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
As one who was encouraged to make an act of contrition before going to sleep... just in case!
Dying with a mortal sin on ones soul equals eternal damnation.
The people who preached this Dogma frequently led less than exemplary lives...

The amount of guilt in religion staggers me. It's like its rocket fuel. I suppose the religious will say, well, we're rightfully guilty!

There's a joke in the therapy world - you might as well enjoy your guilt!

[ 13. June 2014, 08:21: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Do you want to be happy?

As the religious delight in pointing out, happiness has nothing to do with it. We were never promised happiness.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Yeah, but do you above all want to be happy?

I guess we forget that that is what we all want.

We give up. Experience overwhelms hope.

God is going to make everyone happy. Everyone. Who asks. Or who answers.

That's what prodigal dads want to do isn't it?

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

Does it help to remind onesself that there is a difference between weakness, which is an inescapable part of the human condition (and as such must have been experienced by God in Christ), and deliberate wickedness?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Deliberate wickedness is mere weakness. A peccadillo. One doesn't have far to go in steps of weakness to get there. It takes very little effort or lack of it. Jesus knew, saw, felt that. Looked in to His 110% human heart.

We are ALL innocent in our darkest depravity until PROVED ineluctably to be otherwise.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

So Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, were acting out of mere weakness, were they?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Aye. The gap between them and us together and God is what in comparison? A psychologist friend visited a maximum security prison down the road from me. The governor told him 'they' were having a bad day. My friend looked concerned, thinking riot. The governor noticed and said no, that the vast majority of them had had a bad day but it just hadn't ended. He acknowledged that there were evil men there, beyond that category. It's not far beyond.

Ones society and security and control doesn't have to lapse much does it? And now Jesus has become as Pol Pot and Hitler and Stalin He won't rest until He has not just seen Himself in them, as He does, but they do.

[ 14. June 2014, 16:18: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

If I have understood you correctly, MPCnot, I probably agree with you. But H, S and PP would first have to be brought see themselves as God sees them, if they can endure that without self-destructing. And the human race surely has an infinite capacity for self-deception.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Do you want to be happy?
As the religious delight in pointing out, happiness has nothing to do with it. We were never promised happiness.

How about John 15:11

quote:
These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

and John 16:24

quote:
Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.

They are both kind of like promises.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Ohhhhh, we certainly agree Eirenist. You understand me just fine. AH, S and PP (what an endearing nickname!) are yet to see themselves as the joy of God (nice one WH!).

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Do you want to be happy?
As the religious delight in pointing out, happiness has nothing to do with it. We were never promised happiness.
How about John 15:11

quote:
These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
and John 16:24

quote:
Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
They are both kind of like promises.

Add them to the list I guess.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

A promise without a time frame can't be broken, just unfulfilled.

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :

Convenient.

Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
First, I have no idea what love is. (Complicated by the fact that words often seem to mean something totally different when applied to God - e.g. "justice": infinite punishment for a finite transgression. Hm...)

Many people seem to equate justice with punishment. But what it really means is fairness.

Nobody has actually told me that God doesn't love me. But it has been implied, that I am too sinful, or lacking in faith (itself a sin) to be truly accepted by Him.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

W Hyatt - I'm sure a theologian will be along in a minute to tell us that in a theological context, "joy" means something subtly different from what it does in normal usage. Theologically, it probably involves being hit with a sock full of wet sand or something.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

How can there be injustice when all we've ever lost will be more than restored? Anything else is vengeance. Adeodatus DON'T LISTEN TO THE BASTARDS! Projecting their sodding misery. Bless them.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Nobody has actually told me that God doesn't love me. But it has been implied, that I am too sinful, or lacking in faith (itself a sin) to be truly accepted by Him.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way around. Jesus Christ invites us to accept Him as our Lord and Savior. By doing so, we are saved because of God's amazing grace. All our sins are washed clean by the precious blood Christ shed for us on the Cross. Does that not illustrate the depth of God's love for you?

Consider the parable of the prodigal son. There is no such thing as being so sinful that one is beyond God's capacity to forgive.

Where the idea that mere doubt was a sin came from, is beyond me.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There's two main reasons I find it difficult to believe God loves me.

First, I have no idea what love is. (Complicated by the fact that words often seem to mean something totally different when applied to God - e.g. "justice": infinite punishment for a finite transgression. Hm...)

Second, all through my life, my "brother" and "sister" Christians have taken delight in telling me he doesn't love me, or at least that he doesn't want my company. I've had everyone from St Paul to Fred Phelps send me that message, so who am I to question?

(Bitter? Me? Damn right.)

It is not really correct to think of God's judgment in terms of Him seeking to punish us. Sin is anathema to God. If we choose to embrace sin instead of God, then we cannot live in His presence. Thus, we are inflicting punishment on ourselves through the exercise of our own free will.

As for the latter part, you have either met Christians that misinterpret Scripture, (e.g., Fred Phelps), or you are misinterpreting what they are saying (e.g., St. Paul). Anyone that "delights" in telling others the falsehood that God does not love you is a malevolent and wicked creature.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

God embraces sin.

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