Ship of Fools: God spoke to me today!

Thread: God spoke to me today! Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by PDA (# 16531) on :

Ever hear this at the beginning of a preach?

Have any of you guys ever had the pleasure?

I havent and whenever I hear it in a church I always want to jump out of my seat and demand to know :

1)What exactly where you doing at the time? was it before or after cornflakes?
2)What accent did he have ? English? Espanol ? Patwah ?
3)Why didnt you record it and play it to us?

Dont get me wrong I sometimes feel guided by God in various ways but the way this seams to be presented in many churches I have been to is to almost separate the Pastor/Rev/Preacher/Evangelist or whatever from the congregation to make the latter feel that the person standing before them is almost Christlike in their relationship with God and get to converse with him and deliver messages and without them we simply wouldnt get the important memos handed out via the anointed.

The last time I heard this in church was the pastors wife who had apparently spoken to God that morning and he had told her that she should hijack her husbands sermon and tell us what a good parent she is, it was cringe worthy.
(I call this pastors wife syndrome, when pastor lets his wife takeover things she is not suitable for just because she is his wife , some of the worst singers i have ever heard in my life have been wives of church leaders simply because nobody thinks its appropriate to say "your singing isnt good enough to be the lead singer and have a microphone but you can sing as much as you like with the rest of the congregation where you cant ruin worship for everybody".

[ 07. July 2014, 12:54: Message edited by: PDA ]

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

Sorry to kick off the thread on a cynical note, but to me this usually means "I'm going to lay down the law with you lot and claim God's authority so you can't argue with me." It's a manipulative and abusive trick, and I long for the day when a voice comes from heaven saying, "No I bloody didn't!"

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

My first thought would be, why were you waiting until this morning before thinking about what to preach?

When preparing a sermon, I wouldn't say I've ever heard God speak but after reading the texts a few times there's usually a point or two that seem to stand out from the text around which I can work to write a sermon, pick the hymns, prepare a childrens address, write some prayers etc. But, that's a lot more time than the morning before I walk into the pulpit.

Posted by PDA (# 16531) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Sorry to kick off the thread on a cynical note, but to me this usually means "I'm going to lay down the law with you lot and claim God's authority so you can't argue with me." It's a manipulative and abusive trick, and I long for the day when a voice comes from heaven saying, "No I bloody didn't!"

I found this post more sensible than cynical.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Surely if what you have to say is from God the truth and relevance will be evident. My thought would be: If we need to know that you think it's from God before we care, I doubly doubt whether it's from God.

[ 07. July 2014, 13:21: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
If we need to know that you think it's from God before we care, I doubly doubt whether it's from God.

Indeed. A preacher saying, "God spoke to me," always sounds a bit too much like someone saying, "Trust me, I'm a politician."

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I get criticised for over-using this phrase, but it's a case of 'over-egging the pudding.'

I have no problem with someone saying, 'As I was reading such and such a passage I was struck by ... etc' Or, 'It strikes me that such and such is an important point in this passage ...'

But to claim that God 'spoke' to them about it immediately raises it above contradiction or challenge.

Without putting too fine a point on it, the preacher is almost invariably talking bollocks if he - and it's usually a he - descends to as manipulative a tactic as this.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I haven't heard it used in those terms, but I have heard the words ' the Holy Spirit is giving me something to say other than what I prepared' as the minister came in scribbling on a piece of paper. On the few occasions it happened, the sermon was often an improvement [Biased]

It seems to me that this gave us the message that it was important for all of us to listen to God, rather than one that said we must listen to the minister as he was special.

I think that it depends upon how it's said and who it points toward as to whether or not it is OK. If it's saying 'look at me, how connected to God I am' it's really not OK. If it's said humbly, perhaps almost apologetically, as per the prophets of old who had to pass on God's words, and if it points toward God, then it might be helpful.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

How do you know it was an improvement on what he originally planned to say?

Or are you saying it was an improvement on how he normally preached?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

This sort of assertion always makes me wonder about the motivations, thoughts and feelings of the person saying it. Along the lines of wondering about what need of the individual does the hearing of God at all meet, and what needs does the message meet. Thus, thinking that the voice of God is a conjuring of their own mind and motivations, notwithstanding that the alleged voice is normally not a voice at all, and God didn't really talk to the person saying this, but rather that they developed a strong feeling about something. More honest might be "I got a really strong feeling today about [X], and I think God made me feel it".

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Now, when I talked to God I knew he'd understand
He said, "Stick by my side and I'll be your guiding hand
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"

Oh well

Posted by Byron (# 15532) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PDA:

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Sorry to kick off the thread on a cynical note, but to me this usually means "I'm going to lay down the law with you lot and claim God's authority so you can't argue with me." It's a manipulative and abusive trick, and I long for the day when a voice comes from heaven saying, "No I bloody didn't!"
I found this post more sensible than cynical.

Totally, alongside its close cousin, "the Bible clearly teaches ..." (translation, "I interpret the Bible to clearly teach ...")

It's the crudest power-play, putting your personal opinions beyond question. Given all the contradictory messages the Spirit appears to have given, either the third person is wicked schitzo, or some people aren't as tuned-in as they'd like to be.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

If I heard someone claim that God had spoken to them, I'd probably tell them that I was surprised that God was so uninspiring and unintelligent.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I'd just nod at them with a blank, sunny smile.

Sort of like this: [Smile]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

You say God is speaking to you - but a clinical psychiatrist might conclude that you're hearing voices.

How to tell the difference?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

It's a wonderful title. It reminds me of the Beatles, 'God spoke to me today, oh boy, about a lucky man who made the grade, and though the news was rather sad ...'

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's a wonderful title. It reminds me of the Beatles, 'God spoke to me today, oh boy, about a lucky man who made the grade, and though the news was rather sad ...'

No, no! That was "I heard the Good News today, oh boy..."
[Razz]

Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :

You both know that John Lennon's going to haunt you for that, don't you? [Biased]

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If I heard someone claim that God had spoken to them, I'd probably tell them that I was surprised that God was so uninspiring and unintelligent.

This made me howl with laughter!

I've always been uneasy with people saying "God spoke to me" or "The Lord told me" this or that. I wonder if some of it comes from the prophets writing "The word of the LORD came to Isaiah, etc.", which for all we know could be shorthand for a longer process of discernment and reflection on the situation the prophet was facing rather than a direct message from heaven. I've certainly had the sense at times that God was "speaking" to me or through me, but I'm really uncomfortable talking as if God is sitting on my shoulder like Jiminy Cricket whispering messages in my ear.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

The favourite trick in our place is for the leader to stand up and say "Now X will bring us God's word". It is the same as above but has somehow become institutionalised.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
You both know that John Lennon's going to haunt you for that, don't you?

Well, he already does, and he reports that he's in eternal conscious torment, but is writing songs about it, so it's a bit like living in Liverpool.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Ha ha ha ...

I think I've shared this before, ('shared' - now there's an old evangelical buzz-word!) but I knew a chap who used to edit a Christian magazine.

People would regularly send in the most awful doggerel poems for inclusion (even though it didn't take poetry) with the claim that the 'Lord had given them' the verses.

He said that he used to toss them into the wastepaper basked saying, 'The Lord gaveth, and the Lord taketh away ...'

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

[Killing me]

Quotes file!

ETA: John Lennon in familiar-style torment, that is.

[ 07. July 2014, 18:36: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Interesting, because I think it depends exactly what is said.

If someone when preaching says "God spoke to me and told me xxx" I will listen and accept that this is how they were inspired about this particular point. I don't have a problem with that, any more than someone telling me that they looked it up in a concordance or a book. I am not sure why I need to know it, because it will not in fact change how I deal with the point being made.

Someone who starts by saying something like "God told me to preach this" I will tend to ignore everything they say, because it implies that they haven't bothered to do any work, just waited for inspiration. I do remember hearing one person who did this, and it was so bad, so ridiculous, and so meaningless that I walked out. God DOES NOT tell people what to preach. In fact, I doubt very much whether God gives a flying shit about sermons.

Yes, God does talk to people, in all sorts of ways. I don't really need to know about this, unless God has asked you to tell me.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
This sort of assertion always makes me wonder about the motivations, thoughts and feelings of the person saying it. Along the lines of wondering about what need of the individual does the hearing of God at all meet, and what needs does the message meet. Thus, thinking that the voice of God is a conjuring of their own mind and motivations, notwithstanding that the alleged voice is normally not a voice at all, and God didn't really talk to the person saying this, but rather that they developed a strong feeling about something. More honest might be "I got a really strong feeling today about [X], and I think God made me feel it".

Sure, but does God actually MAKE people do anything? Sure, we can find instances in the scriptures of people apparently not being given a great deal of choice in the matter, but by and large I'd go with the view that God doesn't tend to over-ride our integrity as individuals.

Just as someone can't excuse a sin by saying, 'The Devil made me do it!' I'm not sure we can lay claim to any virtue or insight by saying, 'God made me say it.' or 'God made me read that passage ...' or whatever else it might be.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

To me, it depends what God has supposedly said to them. If God has spoken to them and let them know that certain people in the church are doing something wrong, then I take that to mean the pastor is using God as a way to control the congregation. But if God has spoken to the pastor about his/her own behaviour, and the pastor feels convicted and want to share this, then I respect that - because I think that is how God does tend to speak to people, by getting them to look at their own lives first. And I respect people who are open to being corrected and developing self-awareness, and have the humility to share what they learn from their mistakes with others. It seems a more genuine approach to one's faith - not dictated by ego or desire to control.

Posted by Green Mario (# 18090) on :

I agree with everyone who doesn't like "God told me" when its done too much or too confidently.

I am entirely comfortable with people saying "I think God might have spoken to me" or "this verse that I had never noticed before really stood out and I think the Holy Spirit was drawing my attention to it" or "I saw this picture or had this dream and I think this might have been from God and this might be what it means"
When I hear this sometimes I think the people telling me this may well have heard from God, other times I think they probably were mistaken (this may be more correlated to how sceptical I am feeling than anything else) but I don't feel manipulated.

If God is real as he is revealed in the New Testament I would find it incredible if he doesn't speak to his people - given that Jesus talk about his sheep hearing his voice; and Acts talks about how the Holy Spirit being poured out is evidenced by dreams and visions. Beyond any proof texting there is a huge amount of tone in the new testament that talks about fellowship with God and with the Holy Spirit; God as Father etc; i.e. relationship which strongly implies communication to me, and it doesn't seem possible to reconcile this with a God who is aloof from us and never communicates.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

Someone who starts by saying something like "God told me to preach this" I will tend to ignore everything they say, because it implies that they haven't bothered to do any work, just waited for inspiration. I do remember hearing one person who did this, and it was so bad, so ridiculous, and so meaningless that I walked out. God DOES NOT tell people what to preach. In fact, I doubt very much whether God gives a flying shit about sermons.

I strongly disagree with the statement that God does not tell people what to preach. If they say ' May I speak in the name of Almighty God' does this really mean 'I'm going to tell you what popped into my head this week'? Sermons surely must be prepared prayerfully. God surely does have some input. I agree that the legwork has to go into it too.

I'm sure God does care what is said in His name.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How do you know it was an improvement on what he originally planned to say?

Or are you saying it was an improvement on how he normally preached?

The latter, with a wink.

I agree with your later comment that God doesn't make anyone do anything. He invites, sometimes so strongly that it is a command, but we must always have the 'no' option so that we are always responsible for our actions.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I'm afraid that as soon as I hear "God spoke to me today" at the beginning of a sermon, I tune out completely and either drift into a reverie or spend the time looking through my hymn book (I hate hymns projected onto screens).

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

Someone who starts by saying something like "God told me to preach this" I will tend to ignore everything they say, because it implies that they haven't bothered to do any work, just waited for inspiration. I do remember hearing one person who did this, and it was so bad, so ridiculous, and so meaningless that I walked out. God DOES NOT tell people what to preach. In fact, I doubt very much whether God gives a flying shit about sermons.

I strongly disagree with the statement that God does not tell people what to preach. If they say ' May I speak in the name of Almighty God' does this really mean 'I'm going to tell you what popped into my head this week'? Sermons surely must be prepared prayerfully. God surely does have some input. I agree that the legwork has to go into it too.

I'm sure God does care what is said in His name.

"God has input" does not mean "God told me to preach this".

I think if God really cared that much about what was said in his name, there would be so many more thunderbolts. And I do believe that God has far better ways today of communicating with his flock than through sermons.

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

Those are 'running words'. If you hear them, run—someone is about to lie to you.

K.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Dear Cynics Anonymous... [Biased]

I understand what you say about sermons - and 'last minute messages' etc, However in my experience people who have said this have often then gone on to say words of encouragement and help - I felt God saying to me/us that he is with us, he is leading us.

I've heard people say that God has led them to a verse or a passage of Scripture and they wanted to read it just to assure people that God is here.

Very often the words God spoke to me are part of a testimony and not a sermon - and it might be that God spoke to them through the Bible, a song, a conversation with someone.

Is this really so off-the-wall?

It's ironic perhaps that many people who reject sola scriptura in favour of on-going revelation would be cynical when someone claims that God has in fact revealed or confirmed an existing truth.

Now, if someone said, 'God spoke to me and told me that there are no black people in heaven or that Obama was the Second Coming, then yes of course it's crazy; but when people sincerely say that God 'spoke to their heart' and it was simply a word of encouragement and inspiration then what's the problem?

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
[snip]
Very often the words God spoke to me are part of a testimony and not a sermon - and it might be that God spoke to them through the Bible, a song, a conversation with someone.

Is this really so off-the-wall?

Yes.

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Dear Cynics Anonymous... [snip]

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

Just a quick comment - in my experience, when people say 'God spoke to me', they don't usually mean they literally heard an audible voice which they attributed to the Almighty. I wince slightly at this inaccurate use of language - personally, I prefer to say things like 'I think God wants me to say this' or 'I think God has given me something to share' - but that's how it is, ISTM.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
[snip]
Very often the words God spoke to me are part of a testimony and not a sermon - and it might be that God spoke to them through the Bible, a song, a conversation with someone.

Is this really so off-the-wall?

Yes.

Care to expand on that? Why is it so off-the-wall for God to communicate to us?

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
[snip]
Very often the words God spoke to me are part of a testimony and not a sermon - and it might be that God spoke to them through the Bible, a song, a conversation with someone.

Is this really so off-the-wall?

Yes.
Care to expand on that? Why is it so off-the-wall for God to communicate to us?

Sure. It's completely subjective, unreliable, unproven, unprovable and open to abuses of the most heinous sort; but apart from that it's fine.

K.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

So, you do not think that God communicates with us at all I take it.

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

I found it particularly irritating when worship leaders changed the songs during the service 'because the spirit told me to' when apparently the almighty couldn't tell the rest of us the day before during band practise.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I'd just nod at them with a blank, sunny smile.

It's not from a sermon, but I took someone to the airport today who said something like "God told me I must go and visit my mother." (The mother is probably in the terminal stages of cancer.) I think I tried an encouraging smile.

Back in the 70s I got annoyed with a housemate who kept saying "God has revealed to me ...." and asked him why he didn't just say "I think ..."

In the OT it is often related that "The word of the Lord came to xxx." Is this at all like the subject of the OP? Or are some people just being pretenders or false prophets?

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, you do not think that God communicates with us at all I take it.

I'd say that I would rather take responsibility for what I say, than ascribe it to God and risk misrepresenting him.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Sure. It's completely subjective, unreliable, unproven, unprovable and open to abuses of the most heinous sort; but apart from that it's fine.

Just like declarations of romantic love then.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, you do not think that God communicates with us at all I take it.
I'd say that I would rather take responsibility for what I say, than ascribe it to God and risk misrepresenting him.

That seems to be the Biblical (certainly the New Testament) model - what is it Paul says in 1 Corinthians, 'the spirit of a prophet is subject to the prophet'? God's guidance and direction does not overwhelm our decision-making powers such that we have no control over what we say, ISTM.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, you do not think that God communicates with us at all I take it.
I'd say that I would rather take responsibility for what I say, than ascribe it to God and risk misrepresenting him.

There are two issues. One is the question of does God communicate at all, which Komensky considered to be "off-the-wall". The other is whether, if we get a message from God, we repeat that with an emphatic "God told me".

I'm with you, if I think God has told me something that he also wants me to tell others I would hedge that statement with a good collection of "I think this is important", "you may find this useful", "it's possible that God wants you to think about this". Personally, I would only use the phrase "God spoke to me this morning" if what follows is to repeat a reading from the Bible.

But, as an occasional preacher, I think there is an important point about sermons. That is, the sermon should be a means by which God communicates with the congregation (and the preacher!). That may not be the message I think I'm preaching on, it's surprising how many different things people can get from a sermon - most of them not what the preacher thought the sermon was about. I hope my sermons are interesting and people pay attention, but to be honest if someone zones out and finds themselves thinking about the Gospel text or the words of a hymn that doesn't worry me too much.

"Now X will bring us God's word" is not entirely inappropriate. The sermon exists to open the Scriptures (as an evangelical I would call that "Gods Word") and guide people through hearing something from them. I would want a preacher to bring the Word of God into my life and the life of the congregation, to once again make it real and relevant. I would expect the preacher to have taken time to meditate upon the texts, to prayerfully consider whether there is any particular message that would be appropriate for the congregation, and be open to the Spirit guiding her preparation.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Mudfrog, I don't reject Sola Scriptura in favour of ongoing revelation - the issue I have with Sola Scriptura is that 9 times out of 10 it isn't Sola Scriptura at all but 'Sola my interpretation of scripture ...'

Which may not necessarily be the same thing.

Besides, if God had wanted us to make up what we preach week by week, then why would he have given us the Lectionary? [Biased]

More seriously, I don't think it's entirely off-the-wall to suggest that there are times when God might highlight something for a particular purpose.

I once heard a very astonishing - and to my mind, convincing - testimony in this respect from a highly conservative evangelical setting where such things weren't generally expected at all. And all the more convincing for that very reason, I would say.

I also remember a very middle-of-the-road verging on liberal female priest telling me that all of a sudden during the liturgy one day she felt very strongly prompted to say something in addition to the 'set' prayers on the page.

She let it pass and didn't do anything with it. Afterwards she spoke to someone in the congregation who told her something that made her realise that what she would have said would have been particularly pertinent to this person's need.

So, no, I'm not quite as cynical as Komensky when it comes to this sort of thing.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
[snip]
Very often the words God spoke to me are part of a testimony and not a sermon - and it might be that God spoke to them through the Bible, a song, a conversation with someone.

Is this really so off-the-wall?

Yes.

Why?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Just a quick comment - in my experience, when people say 'God spoke to me', they don't usually mean they literally heard an audible voice which they attributed to the Almighty.

I've heard restrained Methodist preachers refer to the importance of 'listening to God's voice' and 'letting God speak', but this doesn't seem to refer to anything audible. It certainly isn't taken as a sign that the speaker has turned into a 'holy roller' or some kind of prophet.

It just goes to show that the same religious language can mean different things in different church traditions.

Posted by PDA (# 16531) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Mudfrog, I don't reject Sola Scriptura in favour of ongoing revelation - the issue I have with Sola Scriptura is that 9 times out of 10 it isn't Sola Scriptura at all but 'Sola my interpretation of scripture ...'

Which may not necessarily be the same thing.

And all Gods people said Amen

Posted by PDA (# 16531) on :

And all Gods people said Amen (ok maybe not all of them)

It is often the implication that God invented a secret code that can get us to heaven but without these people standing before us and unlocking the code we would be damned.
Removing the focus in my mind from God and placing power in their hands.
This is not always the case but it often is.

Some of the deepest spiritual insights i have received are from people who lack any kind of advanced theological knowledge and I would generally consider below average intelligence in the academic sense.

As Bill Shankley stated about football so is also true of the Gospel in my opinion," Football is a simple game complicated by idiots".

A behaviour left over from when Christianity was used to control poor people perhaps.

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
People would regularly send in the most awful doggerel poems for inclusion (even though it didn't take poetry) with the claim that the 'Lord had given them' the verses.

As Gerald quips in The Theatrical Tapes of Leonard Thynn, "he was probably glad to get rid of it".

Our vicar once told a tale of a priest who was forever announcing that God had told him to do this, that and t'other. On one occasion he stood up in the middle of a meal and said that God had told him to phone a particular person. He slunk back in a minute later and muttered that the phone was engaged.

In that instance, I really could believe God had spoken to him - as a wake-up call to stop being such a prick.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

PDA
Love your OP! I have to ask, why aren't you an atheist?! [Smile]

Posted by PDA (# 16531) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
PDA
Love your OP! I have to ask, why aren't you an atheist?!

Being a Christian is more fun.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, you do not think that God communicates with us at all I take it.

Apparently some of us don't hear very well. Spiritually deaf or something. I have been trying to get every Christian type of spiritual hearing aide working since I was a boy. I certainly have felt moved by what people have said to me, or from some piece of music, or some experience, but to ascribe this to hearing God is an attribution of authorship that seems to me to be rather dangerous. I have been guilty of doing this, and thought best to stop, particularly because it seemed to me that somehow I had to be in the right mood, situation, frame or atmosphere to 'get it'.

Posted by Green Mario (# 18090) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arminian: I found it particularly irritating when worship leaders changed the songs during the service 'because the spirit told me to' when apparently the almighty couldn't tell the rest of us the day before during band practise.

This makes perfect sense from an open theology perspective though - perhaps the Almighty had new information compared with what he had the previous day. Or perhaps he just wanted to encourage you all to be a bit more spontaneous!

Seriously though while I understand the annoyance at the abuses of "God told me" and I think people should normally soften this given the potential for human error, mishearing and potential to confuse our own ideas and prejudices with what God actually said - if God doesn't "speak to us" it seems to call hugely into doubt the picture the New Testament paints of how God relates to us (as a Father, as a counsellor, as a comforter, leading us into all truth through the Holy Spirit, fellowship, etc. etc.)

Posted by PDA (# 16531) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:

quote:
Originally posted by Arminian: I found it particularly irritating when worship leaders changed the songs during the service 'because the spirit told me to' when apparently the almighty couldn't tell the rest of us the day before during band practise.
This makes perfect sense from an open theology perspective though - perhaps the Almighty had new information compared with what he had the previous day. Or perhaps he just wanted to encourage you all to be a bit more spontaneous!

Seriously though while I understand the annoyance at the abuses of "God told me" and I think people should normally soften this given the potential for human error, mishearing and potential to confuse our own ideas and prejudices with what God actually said - if God doesn't "speak to us" it seems to call hugely into doubt the picture the New Testament paints of how God relates to us (as a Father, as a counsellor, as a comforter, leading us into all truth through the Holy Spirit, fellowship, etc. etc.)

I personally am not saying that God doesnt speak to us.
But like the speaking in tongues and healing ect... I absolutely believe it does happen but just that the percentage of people who claim to have experienced it is vastly different to those that actually have.
That is not to say they are all bullshitting as some really believe they are experiencing these things for one reason or another but some are just bullshitting , others fooling themselves and some consumed by their own ego.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

The point I was trying to make earlier is that "God spoke to me" is irrelevant. I don't need to know the process of generating your sermon - whether divine word or hours of study. What I am interested in is what you have understood from this, what the message you believe that God would have you speak to this congregation. That is what I assume when someone preaches. That is God speaking to people.

It means, when someone feels they have to claim divine authorship of their words, I am suspicious. It seems to mean one of:

1. This is not something I have bothered to work out, so I will claim divine inspiration instead.

2. Some people will disagree with this, so to dismiss any argument, I will attribute this to God.

3. I am right, and if you disagree with me you are wrong, because God speaks to me.

4. I have been on the odd mushrooms again.

None of these encourages me to listen or accept. If I agree, I agree for other reasons. If I disagree, your claim of divine inspiration would make no difference.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

PDA

Thank you for reply. [Smile]

Posted by Green Mario (# 18090) on :

SC in the context of a sermon I more or less agree although I think it can be useful to hear from people in a sermon the way they hear from God, how much weight they put on this versus their own reasoning, times when this seemed to be God speaking and times when they think they got it wrong.

In other situations (I am thinking for instance of a particular situation where I am often planning as part of a close team) it can be useful to know if someone is suggesting something because they think they have heard from God or because they think its a good idea that they have thought through logically.

If the rest of us can't see the logic (or think there are flaws in the plan) its more worthwhile probing the logic of the idea if they have followed a logical thought process; if they think God has spoken to them probing the logic of the idea is less fruitful - there still needs to be a weighing of the idea (unless its very low risk and nobody else has any suggestions!) but there is less to be gained by asking the person who made the suggestion what their thought process was.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The point I was trying to make earlier is that "God spoke to me" is irrelevant. I don't need to know the process of generating your sermon - whether divine word or hours of study. What I am interested in is what you have understood from this, what the message you believe that God would have you speak to this congregation. That is what I assume when someone preaches. That is God speaking to people.

I find it can sometimes be interesting and helpful if a preacher talks about their own journey. Pastors often will mention something their spouse said to them, so why not also mention something God said to them? And if a pastor has had a revelation which has made an impact on how they see things, then they need a way to express this.

I find different people have different vocabulary for expressing and understanding their interaction and relationship with God - which is a hard thing to express as it is obviously not the same as the way we relate to each other. Some people find it easier to use everyday language, while others find it easier to use a completely different vocabulary. I remember once saying something to someone about talking to God, and he looked a bit puzzled and said 'What do you mean, talking to God? Do you mean praying?' To him, saying 'talking to God' was making it sound weird, but to me, that is a concrete context in which to understand it.

While I definitely see a problem in using the 'God spoke to me' to manipulate and control people, I don't think this automatically means pastors should never use it, or that it is irrelevant.

Posted by Green Mario (# 18090) on :

I think that if a preacher thinks "God has spoken to them" it may be that it is better to give slightly more detail about what this means at least sometimes (rather than saying "God spoke to me"), i.e. don't fail to say that you think this is a revelation from God but let people know (at least sometimes) why you think God has spoken to you - wsa it a verse that was quickened to you, a thought that came to you with a different tone to your normal thinking process, a picture or a dream.

This removes the danger that people think you can't be contradicted because you are talking about a very objective form of communication- they see that you have a reason for thinking God spoke to you but also in most cases how subjective this is and the possibility of you being mistaken.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
I think that if a preacher thinks "God has spoken to them" it may be that it is better to give slightly more detail about what this means at least sometimes (rather than saying "God spoke to me"), i.e. don't fail to say that you think this is a revelation from God but let people know (at least sometimes) why you think God has spoken to you - wsa it a verse that was quickened to you, a thought that came to you with a different tone to your normal thinking process, a picture or a dream.

In my experience, preachers do expand on it - I've actually never come across a preacher who said 'God spoke to me' without giving some details of the process. Often they add an extra bit about how God can speak to people, and how it's generally not a voice booming from the sky, and the importance of praying about it and not jumping to conclusions, etc.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

One of the reasons I am no longer a Christian is that God spoke to everyone else in my church but not to me. I can take a hint.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
One of the reasons I am no longer a Christian is that God spoke to everyone else in my church but not to me. I can take a hint.

Well, I can add to that that I know quite a few people to whom God (apparently) spoke, who are not Christians.

So maybe he's not fussy.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

If we're basically doing OK, have everything reasonably well handled, and need no additional instructions would God have anything he needs to say to us? On the otherhand, if your life is screwed up and you struggle through, perhaps that's when you need a more direct approach to being reassured that God is there.

Does this potentially explain the apparent correlation between those hearing God speak to them and less stable indivuals?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Some of them are probably nutty, but maybe God speaks to nutty people.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If we're basically doing OK, have everything reasonably well handled, and need no additional instructions would God have anything he needs to say to us? On the otherhand, if your life is screwed up and you struggle through, perhaps that's when you need a more direct approach to being reassured that God is there.

I find that he tends to speak to the affluent middle class churchgoers quite often. He certainly didn't say a dickie bird to me when I was living in a pile of cardboard in a Sheffield carpark.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I find that he tends to speak to the affluent middle class churchgoers quite often. He certainly didn't say a dickie bird to me when I was living in a pile of cardboard in a Sheffield carpark.

I've found quite the opposite, that God is more not less likely to have apparently spoken to and been consciously present with people who were less affluent, rather than 'middle class'.

It's how God speaks that perhaps is the crux of this.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If we're basically doing OK, have everything reasonably well handled, and need no additional instructions would God have anything he needs to say to us?

Forgive me, but this is beginning to sound a tiny bit like Homer Simpson saying, "God, if you don't want me to eat this donut, give me a sign." [Infinitesimal pause][Eats donut]

Posted by Uriel (# 2248) on :

I don't hear this in sermons, thankfully, but if I did I would say to the preacher afterwards:

"God's just spoken to me, and he says that he didn't tell you that at all, in fact he says you are suffering from paranoid delusions and could you please stop misquoting him."

See how they handle that message from the Lord.

Posted by Green Mario (# 18090) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If we're basically doing OK, have everything reasonably well handled, and need no additional instructions would God have anything he needs to say to us? On the otherhand, if your life is screwed up and you struggle through, perhaps that's when you need a more direct approach to being reassured that God is there.

Does this potentially explain the apparent correlation between those hearing God speak to them and less stable indivuals?

A bit like Jesus saying he came for the sinners rather than the righteous?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Some of them are probably nutty, but maybe God speaks to nutty people.

Maybe an acceptance of the divine communicating with us as individuals is so out of place in our society that it implies nuttiness?

Maybe telling people that God spoke to me indicates a lack of respect of social norms that implies mental instability?

Maybe "normal, well-adjusted people" will never accept that something is, in fact, a communication from the divine. Which says something about the society that we live in.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Some of them are probably nutty, but maybe God speaks to nutty people.

Just look at the OT prophets!

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

Martin Luther told how he tried to implement the "God spoke" philosophy when we went unprepared into the pulpit. Did not Jesus promise that "it will be given you in that hour what to say"?

After the service someone asked Luther; "Did God speak?"

"Yes" said Luther. He said " Martin you have been a very lazy man this week".

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I've been offline for a few days whilst I wended my way home to Kenya and I'm now in a dilemma about which of several threads I should post this on as it seems to me there is considerable overlap going on....so please bear with me if you feel I've chosen the wrong one.
A few months ago I started a thread about a friend of mine who was going to visit a church which was hosting a "prophetic gathering". I seem to recall considerable heat in various comments on that thread all of which I understood. It seems to me the debates about hearing God's voice, the possibility of inexplicable happenings etc all boil down to whether or not we believe in a God who interacts with us.
If not, then of course all of the stuff under discussion on these threads is rightly subject to suspicion.
However if yes, then we face the challenge of sifting the wheat from the chaff and it's one heck of a challenge and a headache.
Back on the thread I started all those months ago, I concluded that my position had to be that I was respectful of the walk of others, no matter how at odds I felt with it.
But also I strongly believe that it is for us as individuals to decide whether or not the words of someone else in that moment become the voice of God, not for us to announce them as such which can to my mind be both personality and insecurity driven.
Finally,I've learned the hard way that it is a wise person who knows which insights gleaned through private devotions or which personal experiences are for public sharing and which are best kept safely in one's journal....

Posted by SimonRockman (# 18155) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I long for the day when a voice comes from heaven saying, "No I bloody didn't!"

Which of course would define God as being a Catholic God as "bloody" is a contraction of "By Our Lady".

I did once hear a rabbi, who was preaching when there was a thunderstorm say that rabbi's like it when there is a clap of thunder just at the right point in their oratory. They see it as affirmation.

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