Thread: Ramadan, and methods of fasting Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=027445
Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 
So, I was in the Middle East last week - during the first week of Ramadan. It got me thinking about the spiritual discipline of fasting, and I'm wondering what other people think about it.

The huge benefit of Ramadan is that it results in people actually fasting. I'm sure the percentage of Muslims that fast is far higher than Christians. Fasting is a great spiritual discipline, and I think we should do it a lot more.

However, there are a couple of things that I noticed, which in the context of Jesus' words about fasting gave me pause for thought. Jesus said that when we fast, we shouldn't make it obvious. I think this is for two reasons. Firstly, for us, that our attitude is right, that we're not proud. Secondly, for others, that we don't expect them to treat us differently.

In the context of a rule-based (i.e. set time, set nature) fast, this is impossible. Firstly, there were a number of times that I felt guilty for having a drink of water (it was 40 degrees C) in front of a Muslim. I tried to be discrete when I could, but it's not always easy. I don't think the point of fasting is that we should make others feel awkward (or guilty, or impressed), but with a defined fast like Ramadan or Lent, that is pretty unavoidable.

Secondly, there was occasionally some grumpiness going on - especially towards the end of the day. Again, is the laudable goal of fasting more important than how you interact with others? One Muslim I met told me that he chose not to fast, because he knows he gets "hangry" (hungry/angry), and he'd rather be pleasant than fast.

Fasting is about attitude, and if everyone has to do it, then it's very possible that some of them will go into it with a bad attitude. Perhaps they'd be better off not fasting?

Finally, I'm wondering about different forms of fasting. Fasting during daylight hours is one of many ways we can fast, and we can fast different foods, or things other than food, in different ways. What are shipmates experiences of fasting, and what stands out as particularly helpful?
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Actually, to me, fasting while everyone around you is fasting sort of takes the pride factor out. It also would seem to foster fellowship in the endeavor, giving the fast both a private and public dimension that is useful. As to getting testy, there could be opportunities to learn new techniques of control for those who suffer from those effects, something of an anger management boot camp.

I understand Jesus' point within his society about making a big, fat, public deal out of personal fasting to impress others. As he said, the reward becomes the advertisement of piety, not the relationship with God. It doesn't foster much of anything good.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Most of my Muslim acquaintances are not fasters in Ramadan, although it seems to be more common with younger people. A friend works in a shipping office where perhaps about half the staff are Muslim, split between non-fasters and fasters and she says that the silent dynamics can be... interesting. The Ontario Labour standards people tried to get a discussion going about relaxing the fast for heavy-labourers (such as construction-- in Ottawa a faster was injured when he fainted from dehydration while working on a roof in Ramadan) but they got nowhere.

I knew of a few places where there were Xn Arabs and Copts working alongside Muslims, and they told me that they were used to Muslims in Ramadan and it was no problem. I would not have wanted to be a fasting Muslim while working in a restaurant, but perhaps that says more about me than them.

In my bureaucratic days, we had several fasters in the office, and during Ramadan we seemed to develop a practice of not eating at our desks, thereby ensuring that the scent of our (sometimes) tasty packed lunches did not cause misery to our more observant colleagues. Meetings were scheduled in the morning as afternoon ones seemed to strain people a bit more and I quietly suggested to two colleagues that they might not want to snack at meetings in front of the fasters-- they were happy to do abstain from their grazing for an hour or so but they had had no idea that fasting was going on.

Still, I took it as a compliment when, just before my retirement, I was the guest of the women Muslim bureaucrats in my department for their end-of-Ramadan feast. The leftovers kept me going for a week.
 
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on :
 
I thought I'd give it a go one week during Ramadan once. I discovered two things:

- water tastes absolutely amazing when you haven't drunk anything for hours
- it's really hard to do in isolation, it's all about community

The latter point was the most important learning. Ramadan fasting is all about community, corporate fasting. It wasn't so much the not eating when others around me were eating, but rather that I found it almost impossible to wake up before dawn and eat on my own. Whereas if I'd been in a family where the mother of the house was waking everyone up to come and eat together, it would have been much easier.
 
Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Actually, to me, fasting while everyone around you is fasting sort of takes the pride factor out. It also would seem to foster fellowship in the endeavor, giving the fast both a private and public dimension that is useful. As to getting testy, there could be opportunities to learn new techniques of control for those who suffer from those effects, something of an anger management boot camp.
This, and Yangtze's point about community are really true. We had some Iftar food and drink and it was delicious. ISTM that Ramadan is as much about the celebration of eating together after sunset as it is about starving / thirsting during the day.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
I'm doing a "traditional" fast every Lent. Where the "tradition" is actually a 1950s halfway house between the old style, serious Catholic fasting and the new "do something on Ash Wednesday and (Good) Friday at least" way. Basically the rules are this:
In addition I drink no alcohol during that time. The "collation" I take is usually a piece of bread, or a banana, or the like. This is sufficient to lead to relatively regular feelings of hunger in particular towards the end of Lent, and indeed to some overall weight loss. But I find it has relatively little impact on physical / mental performance. For example, you can still do sports.

Fasting like that rarely becomes obvious to others (and I usually don't mention it, of course). One gets "caught out" sometimes concerning the eating when one has a spontaneous invitation to a meal, or some other unexpected event where a lot of food is provided in a social context, and one has had the full meal already. I find though that it is the additional avoidance of alcohol, which makes it difficult to hide the fast on occasion. People who know me know that I enjoy drinking alcohol in pretty much all forms (responsibly, of course [Razz] ). So if everybody has a beer and I go for a coke, questions tend to be asked.

Overcoming hunger induced grumpiness or loss of concentration is really a big part of what religious fasting is about. It is in part supposed to work as a kind of training to not let the body's urges control your actions. So to say that one does not fast because it makes one "hunger-angry" does not make much sense to me. That's like saying one does not do strength training because it involves lifting weights.

This sort of "easy" fasting I do is in my opinion good for improving discipline and self-control, and by itself not for much else. At least it certainly has not given me major spiritual insights on its own. I think the really traditional Christian "hard" fasting may have a more direct spiritual impact, but since I have not done that so far I cannot comment from experience.
 
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
I grew up with a different idea of fasting to that used by Muslims. When I first explored the idea of Ramadan, it seemed like a cop-out, particularly as it then fell in the winter months.

When I hear 'fast' I instinctively think of no nutrition. So you can drink water, but that's it. No eating at night or just cutting bits out of the diet. It's no calorific intake at all for a period of days. The 20-30 hour window hurts the most. After that, it does get easier and 5 days is doable. Never gone beyond that, but those I know who have say it gets bad again at around day 7.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Fasting during daylight hours for a week or two as a religious observance makes sense in the Middle East where Islam began - but further North when, in summer, there are so few dark hours? Crazy imo.

Children as young as 10 are fasting at our school and they are not well in this weather.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
One of my daughter's friends is fasting for Ramadan. I spoke to her last week on a day in which dawn was at 2am, and dusk not till 10.10 pm. She is having only one meal a day because, as she said, if you start your meal at 10.10pm, and go to bed at 11pm, waking up again for breakfast at 1.30am is not appealing - she isn't hungry for breakfast three hours after her main meal.

What it can be like for Muslims even further north I dread to think.
 
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
What it can be like for Muslims even further north I dread to think.
Not everyone is totally legalistic. A former colleague of mine who worked in the Oslo office (when Ramadan was starting in late July) said that he and his family kept the same hours as those in Mecca. That way he avoided what he saw as a silly side-effect that wasn't thought through properly whilst keeping the sense of wider community with his Muslim brethren in their holiest city.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
That's interesting re daylight hours. I wonder how they do it north of 60, which is close to the arctic circle. When canoeing in the NWT, the sun just did a circle in the sky, with sort of a half sunset morphing into a sunrise, with no dipping below the horizon. Further north, not even that.
 
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
However, there are a couple of things that I noticed, which in the context of Jesus' words about fasting gave me pause for thought. Jesus said that when we fast, we shouldn't make it obvious. I think this is for two reasons. Firstly, for us, that our attitude is right, that we're not proud. Secondly, for others, that we don't expect them to treat us differently.
I am not sure that Jesus was saying we shouldn't make it obvious. Surely he was being more metaphorical, talking about attitude - that, as you say, we shouldn't be boasting about it, or trying to act like it makes us extra spiritual. He says the same about praying, but people don't hide the fact they pray, and plenty of Christians pray in public. With praying, people tend to take the 'go into your room' to be more about not being self-righteous about prayer, but for some reason, many people take the instructions about fasting very literally to mean that you shouldn't let anyone know when you fast. Which is daft - there are plenty of situations where it's helpful and practical to let people know you're fasting. Also, the act of talking about it (in a factual, non-self-righteous way) raises awareness and interest. I think that is why fasting is not so common in Christianity - talking about it is seen as a sign of pride, so people rarely talk about and so a lot of poeple don't know much about it. It's a shame - I think fasting is a very important discipline.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
We had a child in our special unit who decided to fast one year (summerish, but not too hot) though he was not required to as a child (10 I think). It turned out to have been a good thing, because during the following year he developed Type 1 diabetes, and would never be able to take part in the Ramadan fast again.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
I thought of possible blood sugar problems with the man who becomes "hangry." For some, it's not just a matter of learning to control their temper but real problems with headaches, dizziness and even fainting.

For me fasting has always meant nothing but water. When I was young I was able to do that for three day periods, but these days with the medications I take, that wouldn't be smart.

I can still do the sort of dieting fast from dinner to next day lunch -- what we used to call "skipping breakfast," but, for me, that's all about losing weight and not for religious reasons. I wish I could still do real fasts because I think they help concentrate the mind away from the physical world.
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
Our fasts in the Orthodox Church in Finland in one meal in the afternoon, no meat, fish, oil or dairy. Each does what he is able, some more some less. But I would also say that fasting is an essential part of Christian practice. It's medicine. But it is true that the spirit of the fast is kept ortherwise, as St. John Chrysostom says, it becomes a devil's fast.

The Pilgrimage of Egeria gives a fascinating insight into the fasting practices of the ancient Church in Jerusalem (as well as giving fascinating insights into its liturgical practices) and is well worth a read for those who are interested.

http://m.ccel.org/ccel/mcclure/etheria/etheria.htm
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
In western countries where so many people are at least a little overweight, I wonder if it's possible to do a truly spiritual fast without vain thoughts of how good we're going to look in our jeans slipping in.
 
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
In western countries where so many people are at least a little overweight, I wonder if it's possible to do a truly spiritual fast without vain thoughts of how good we're going to look in our jeans slipping in.
If one views the body as a temple, then losing unhealthy excess weight could be done as an act of worship.
 
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
I have fasted before in an office where we were all doing it and by the end of the day tempers could get frayed. Working in healthcare now I don't think it is good for patients (as well as my colleagues) if my performance is impaired by the physical distraction of hunger or headaches or if my level of alertness is affected especially if I am performing procedures.
 
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
What I find curious is that many of my Muslim colleagues fast in Ramadan, despite not being remotely observant the rest of the year. Last year, as soon as the end of Ramadan rolled around, I discovered them celebrating in the kitchen with a bottle of champagne, which tells you how devout they are [Big Grin] . As far as I know, they pretty much never set foot inside a mosque. Each to his own, but if I was only going to do one bit of religious observance a year, I don’t know if it would be something as arduous as the Ramadan fast, especially when the fast falls in the middle of summer and the days are at their longest. I think there’s definitely a community element to it (my colleagues are mostly of Moroccan/Tunisian origin, with one Senegalese person).
 
Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
What I find curious is that many of my Muslim colleagues fast in Ramadan, despite not being remotely observant the rest of the year. Last year, as soon as the end of Ramadan rolled around, I discovered them celebrating in the kitchen with a bottle of champagne, which tells you how devout they are [Big Grin] . As far as I know, they pretty much never set foot inside a mosque. Each to his own, but if I was only going to do one bit of religious observance a year, I don’t know if it would be something as arduous as the Ramadan fast, especially when the fast falls in the middle of summer and the days are at their longest. I think there’s definitely a community element to it (my colleagues are mostly of Moroccan/Tunisian origin, with one Senegalese person).
I also have a colleague who I didn't realize was religious - because he drinks alcohol - who is fasting. However I'm probably one of two practicing Christians in my office but a lot of colleagues gave something up for Lent despite not attending church. Granted that's not as challenging as forgoing food and drink for daylight hours, but it's the same type of concept - cultural reasons for participating in a religious discipline.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I used to go on "health" walks about the village, and one of the walkers was an observant Muslim, so, when it was a very hot day, and I would have liked to take some water with me, I religiously didn't.

But he did. Medical reasons.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It's medicine.
How so? The experimental evidence is not conclusive. Even should the opponents be correct, medicine is a most inappropriate word. At best calorie restriction is a reduction in the likelihood of negative events, not a cure.
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It's medicine.
How so? The experimental evidence is not conclusive. Even should the opponents be correct, medicine is a most inappropriate word. At best calorie restriction is a reduction in the likelihood of negative events, not a cure.
But you are looking at fasting from a purely physiological viewpoint and that is precisely not what fasting is about. It's benefits are spiritual. It is spiritual medicine.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
I would argue it is more a psychological phenomenon. However I am not denigrating the spiritual practice at all. Just get a bit tetchy with people touting physiological benefits in dubious circumstance.
Carry on.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
In western countries where so many people are at least a little overweight, I wonder if it's possible to do a truly spiritual fast without vain thoughts of how good we're going to look in our jeans slipping in.
I think that's true of most anything. It's hard to do an act of kindness or charity or justice w/o thinking of how good we'll look to others or what a great Christian we are. It's just part of our brokenness. One of the advantages of fasting is that it can give you the clarity to see that-- then it just becomes one more thing you're working thru with the Spirit. Sometimes you just gotta laugh.
 
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
But you are looking at fasting from a purely physiological viewpoint and that is precisely not what fasting is about. It's benefits are spiritual. It is spiritual medicine.
I don't see the two as separate. We are spiritual and physical beings. I think God asks us to do things which benefit our whole beings. Of course some people have conditions where they can't fast, but for myself, I find fasting benefits me mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Fasting during daylight hours for a week or two as a religious observance makes sense in the Middle East where Islam began - but further North when, in summer, there are so few dark hours? Crazy imo.

Children as young as 10 are fasting at our school and they are not well in this weather.
This is concerning since children are supposed to be exempt from fasting, along with pregnant women, diabetics etc. Ramadan also varies as to when it is (like Lent) - it is not always in the summer in the northern hemisphere. This year it seems earlier than usual, I'm used to it being in the autumn.
 
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
The start of Ramadan moves backwards about 10 days each year due to the lunar year that the Islamic calendar is based on being shorter than the solar year. So it goes around all the months in a 36 year cycle.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Fasting during daylight hours for a week or two as a religious observance makes sense in the Middle East where Islam began - but further North when, in summer, there are so few dark hours? Crazy imo.

Children as young as 10 are fasting at our school and they are not well in this weather.
This is concerning since children are supposed to be exempt from fasting, along with pregnant women, diabetics etc. Ramadan also varies as to when it is (like Lent) - it is not always in the summer in the northern hemisphere. This year it seems earlier than usual, I'm used to it being in the autumn.
I have run into fasting children as well, and a friend of mine with blood sugar problems was subjected to a tirade from another member of his mosque about this. Happily, the situation made it back to the Imam of the Byron Avenue mosque, who has given out a number of decisions and counsels (fatwas, but the word now has other connotations) on exemptions from the fast.
 
Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :
 
I was under the impression that Ramadan required fasting during the hours of daylight; therefore no fasting is required st night. Also, anyone under 14 years old need not fast. Am I right in thinking these things?
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
I was under the impression that Ramadan required fasting during the hours of daylight; therefore no fasting is required st night. Also, anyone under 14 years old need not fast. Am I right in thinking these things?
The first is correct, you can eat between sunset and sunrise but that amount of time gets smaller the further north you are in a Northern Hemisphere summer. I'm not sure about the 14 years one but certainly nobody is required to fast if they've not gone through puberty yet.
 
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
That is correct, the fasting is only during the hours of daylight. Much is eaten during the hours of night. In Muslim countries often more food is consumed during Ramadan than in other months, it is just that it is loaded into particular hours of the day.
Secondly my understanding is that youngsters are expected to fast once they reach puberty. Clearly this can vary from person to person but my understanding is that for girls at least they would be expected to fast once they have started their periods. I'm not sure how you decide for boys. maybe it goes by age for them.
 
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
The question of why those who do not appear to be actively practicing Muslims will still fast in Ramadan is an interesting one. From living in a Muslim majority country I would say three possible factors are:

Firstly this is a shame/honour culture, not a guilt based one. This means that what matters is whether you are seen to do the right thing, or whether you shame yourself and your family by being seen to do what is considered bad. Therefore there is a lot of pressure/expectation that you will be seen to fast otherwise you bring shame on yourself and your family. Those who do break the fast will not do so openly and publicly. Cafes that still serve will do so behind closed doors and covered windows so that those inside cannot be seen.

Secondly there is a belief that fasting in Ramadan brings forgiveness of your sins. If you fast in Ramadan it doesn't matter so much what you do the rest of the year because you get forgiven if you do Ramadan properly.

Lastly there is an underlying belief that if you don't keep Ramadan properly bad things will happen to you. I have heard it expressed here that someone who has had a run of bad luck is blaming it on the fact that they did not keep Ramadan properly and saying that as a result they will keep the fast properly next time. So perhaps there is some fear/superstition attached to it as well. Even amongst those who are fairly non-observant these kind of background beliefs are hard to leave behind.

Some of this is not really so different from what we see amongst Christians at times...

[ 13. July 2014, 09:12: Message edited by: Lucia ]
 
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :
 
Is it not also an important cultural community thing, which fosters a sense of belonging and a sense of identity? At least, that's how it seems to me, from having Muslim friends here in the UK, who don't stick to their religious rules very closely, but at the same time very much value their cultural roots and community. It's more of a communal way of thinking. And of course Ramadam is followed by the Eeid celebration, which is lots of fun - the two go together.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Is it not also an important cultural community thing, which fosters a sense of belonging and a sense of identity? At least, that's how it seems to me, from having Muslim friends here in the UK, who don't stick to their religious rules very closely, but at the same time very much value their cultural roots and community. It's more of a communal way of thinking. And of course Ramadam is followed by the Eeid celebration, which is lots of fun - the two go together.
This community solidarity aspect, I think, was one of the reasons why Friday abstention from meat was so important for anglopohone RCs in North America for many years. My Xn Arab friends tell me that as children they always knew who in their home-country town was of which religion by the fasting patterns.
 
Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I thought of possible blood sugar problems with the man who becomes "hangry." For some, it's not just a matter of learning to control their temper but real problems with headaches, dizziness and even fainting.
Yes. If I skip breakfast in the morning I'm lightheaded and headachey and irritable by lunchtime; if I push through that I'm incredibly fatigued and depressed by the end of the afternoon and my limbs feel heavy and I start to feel sick and it's like all the colour is draining out of the world and everything makes me cry and I can't do anything. This is the point where I don't even want to eat any more and I can't decide what to eat and nothing sounds good and I become incapable of getting it together to cook anything.

If I push *that* feeling a bit further by still not eating, I start literally throwing up bile. One of my most miserable moments was trying to slip out of a 5AM Paschal Fire service because I was about to start projectile-heaving nothingness and stomach fluid all over my nice Easter coat. That was the year I gave up even *trying* to fast.
 
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
I do find having a low sugar diet helps with the general dips and peaks of energy, as well as hunger in general. If I have something sugary I get hungry much quicker than on low sugar stuff. A few years ago I was having almost zero sugar for a while and once I'd got into it I got hungry far less often.

Blasted stuff is just so addictive though I keep trying to ditch it again but temptation is everywhere.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Persephone Hazard:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I thought of possible blood sugar problems with the man who becomes "hangry." For some, it's not just a matter of learning to control their temper but real problems with headaches, dizziness and even fainting.
Yes. If I skip breakfast in the morning I'm lightheaded and headachey and irritable by lunchtime; if I push through that I'm incredibly fatigued and depressed by the end of the afternoon and my limbs feel heavy and I start to feel sick and it's like all the colour is draining out of the world and everything makes me cry and I can't do anything. This is the point where I don't even want to eat any more and I can't decide what to eat and nothing sounds good and I become incapable of getting it together to cook anything.

If I push *that* feeling a bit further by still not eating, I start literally throwing up bile. One of my most miserable moments was trying to slip out of a 5AM Paschal Fire service because I was about to start projectile-heaving nothingness and stomach fluid all over my nice Easter coat. That was the year I gave up even *trying* to fast.
I'm very similar. I discovered this at school, doing cross-country runs in the afternoon, and afterwards I felt very bad-tempered and miserable. Anyway, my wise old mum observed that it was lack of food. The thing I dread is doing a blood test with no prior food, so I carry a chocolate bar for instant relief. Also going for a walk, I carry a snack.
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
We have a lot of Muslims in London. Some fast, some don't. In my experience the ones who are fasting tend to announce this proudly to all and sundry while the ones who don't tend to keep quiet unless specifically asked.

Ramadan can be hazardous for the unwary. A close relative had to go to the dentist this week for some urgent treatment and wasn't too happy when she saw how unsteady the dentist's hands were. It's really important to make sure your appointment is in the morning if your dentist is fasting - someone with low blood sugar levels let loose with a drill in your mouth is NOT a good thing.

The thing I find problematic is the smokers experiencing withdrawal symptoms. Half the Muslim men I know are walking round all day with bad breath, in a filthy temper, snarling at other people and all because they can't have a ciggie until sundown. Then they spend half the night chain-smoking to make up.

I do think Jesus had a good point. By all means fast if you want to, folks, but give the rest of us a break, huh?
 
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
We are flying to the UK on Tuesday with our local Arab airline. (Yeah, they are the only direct scheduled flights now since BA dropped the route last autumn - that would be worthy of TICTH British Airways in my opinion...) I'm hoping that our pilot will not be fasting. Those traveling are not obliged to fast but that doesn't mean that they are prohibited from doing so. Some will still choose to do it but I would rather not have an aircrew all suffering from dehydration and low blood sugar...
 
Posted by crunt (# 1321) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
We are flying to the UK on Tuesday with our local Arab airline. (Yeah, they are the only direct scheduled flights now since BA dropped the route last autumn - that would be worthy of TICTH British Airways in my opinion...) I'm hoping that our pilot will not be fasting. Those traveling are not obliged to fast but that doesn't mean that they are prohibited from doing so. Some will still choose to do it but I would rather not have an aircrew all suffering from dehydration and low blood sugar...
This worries me, too.
Fasting among Moslems during Ramadan is a massively 'group think' activity, especially in areas with a large concentration of believers; so much so that even those who are exempted for reasons of health or travel requirements choose not to eat or drink during the fast because they will only have to make up the missed days later on in the year - on their own, when no one else is fasting. I can think of two occasions during last year's fast when heavilly pregnant women chose communal solidarity over their unborn baby's nutrition. Some may applaud their devotion to the fast, but I find it odd.
On another occasion I was talking to a male colleague about something I witnessed in the previous year's fast, and his reaction stunned me. A friend and I were out on our regular evening walk when we saw some men furtively eating in the bushes alongside the walking track. The next day, we were walking the same route, but instead of seeing men in bushes we saw policemen patrolling the area to make sure no one was getting in a sneaky snack. My colleague, also a Moslem, later commented that he had no problem with that because fasting is a rule for Moslems, and people should obey the rules. Fair enough, but we were at school, hanging out 'behind the bike sheds' (or equivalent of) while he was smoking. Smoking is technically haram (forbidden for Moslems) whether it is Ramadan or not, but that didn't seem to bother him as much as other people eating when they shouldn't be.
This year, a friend came from overseas to visit me and she told me about a hell bus ride down the east coast. The 6 hour bus ride was driven by a driver who was fasting. So, national bus company or not, he did not stop for any toilet or refreshment breaks, but he did make an unscheduled 40 minute stop for prayers at a mosque (good luck finding any food or drink for sale in the vicinity of a mosque during mid-day prayers).
My partner is fasting and when I go out for lunch or whatever with non-Moslem friends he always wants to come along too; "but", I say "we will be going to a cafe". He says he's fine with it, but what he doesn't get is that we don't want to be enjoying delicious food and drinks while someone is at the same table and unable to eat and drink with us (or even swallow his own saliva, let alone take a glass of tea!).
One of my non-Moslem colleagues is joining in the fast as a gesture of solidarity, and it is very much appreciated by our Moslem friends, but not being able to drink water for over 12 hours during the hottest part of the year is not something I feel inclined to do - at all!
 
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
It throws up all kinds of difficulties doesn't it? If I was facing a significant operation I would not want someone who was fasting to do it (particularly if I was due late on the afternoon surgery list!. But in the UK would such a request be acceptable or would it immediately be branded as discrimination against someone because of their religion?

From a pragmatic point of view I can't help feeling that those who have responsibilities which involve the well being of others and whose competence to carry those responsibilities out may be affected by their fasting should not be fasting when carrying them out. But it seems there is a significant range of opinions on this amongst Muslims.

[ 19. July 2014, 08:34: Message edited by: Lucia ]
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
Originally posted by Lucia:

quote:
From a pragmatic point of view I can't help feeling that those who have responsibilities which involve the well being of others and whose competence to carry those responsibilities out may be affected by their fasting should not be fasting when carrying them out.
Yes, but how would you define "responsibilities which involve the well being of others"? It seems to me that practically everyone who is in employment or voluntary work has these responsibilities. For instance, people's lives get messed up by someone entering incorrect data into a computer - and it's notoriously difficult to get such mistakes corrected.

It seems to me that you could argue that everyone who is interacting with other people has responsibilities for their well being. Just being unpleasant to someone can push them over the edge if they are in a fragile state - and how can you tell?

I think the Ramadan-style of total fast was fine for a pastoral society, when people could withdraw from most contact and just let the sheep and goats get on with their lives. in the modern world where we all live on top of each other in a highly interconnected way I don't think it's fair on other people.
 
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
Certainly when Ramadan came about people were not driving anything faster than a camel! The roads here are very scary later in the day during Ramadan. We try not to drive after about 2pm. We were out in the afternoon during the first week in Ramadan and someone just drifted sideways into our lane with their car, scraping and denting all down one side. Luckily no-one hurt.
Lack of concentration and impaired judgement is dangerous in drivers.
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
Scary scenario!

I don't know much about driving camels, but I do know that when you drive a horse at walking pace the horse steers itself and generally you only have to let it know when you want it to stop or change direction (driving a horse at speed, or driving a team of horses, needs more input from the driver). Horse van drivers used not to hold the reins most of the time, and on a regular delivery round the horse would know exactly where to stop for each drop-off point. Definitely NOT like driving a motorised vehicle.

English law requires a person not to drive a motorised vehicle if under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Do you think the law should be extended to include being under the influence of fasting?
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
In my experience, most people don't turn into simpletons who are unable to drive or do their jobs when they haven't eat in a few hours. That, combined with the fact that most Islamic authorities allow for exemptions from fasting for those who are traveling (including pilots, bus/taxi drivers, and the like) along with a catch-all hardship exemption, and I'm fairly certain most people will be able to handle it. Your fears reek of prejudice, and are misplaced.

Then again, it might just be better if the local constable could arrest someone for driving without a sandwich, just the same way one might get arrested for driving intoxicated. That does seem like a better solution.
 
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
In my experience, most people don't turn into simpletons who are unable to drive or do their jobs when they haven't eat in a few hours. That, combined with the fact that most Islamic authorities allow for exemptions from fasting for those who are traveling (including pilots, bus/taxi drivers, and the like) along with a catch-all hardship exemption, and I'm fairly certain most people will be able to handle it. Your fears reek of prejudice, and are misplaced.
People are not required to fast when traveling but many do. And I'm afraid my experience of being on the roads here in an Arab Muslim country do not concur with your opinion. Later in the day there is a definite deterioration in the way people drive and it is scary (and we're starting from a fairly 'interesting' starting point with the usual style of driving here...)

It's not just the lack of food and the dehydration. People have often been up most of the night as well and are very tired by that stage of the day.

For what it's worth, even in the UK I don't think you could ban people from driving when fasting, but perhaps those with teaching authority in the muslim community could do more to recognise the physical challenges of fasting and highlight the need for those fasting to keep themselves and others safe, maybe adapting their routines in some way.

[ 19. July 2014, 20:54: Message edited by: Lucia ]
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
There can also be blood sugar issues, particularly if someone is just starting in diabetes or what-not and hasn't yet been diagnosed. Pity it's a whole population of people all at once...
 
Posted by crunt (# 1321) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
In my experience, most people don't turn into simpletons who are unable to drive or do their jobs when they haven't eat in a few hours. That, combined with the fact that most Islamic authorities allow for exemptions from fasting for those who are traveling (including pilots, bus/taxi drivers, and the like) along with a catch-all hardship exemption, and I'm fairly certain most people will be able to handle it. Your fears reek of prejudice, and are misplaced.

Then again, it might just be better if the local constable could arrest someone for driving without a sandwich, just the same way one might get arrested for driving intoxicated. That does seem like a better solution.


Sorry I pressed the wrong button - here's my post

No Jon; it's expeirence, not prejudice that is the cause of my (and probably Lucia's) fear of traveling during the fasting month. Regardless of any teaching that allows people to break the fast (traveling, health, work duties), many people are very afraid of the finger pointing that is prevalent during fasting, and even if they are exempt they do not want to appear to be breaking the fast for any reason. A friend of mine gleefully told me how his friends who work in a restaurant found out that one of their colleagues ate something during the day. These guys, who drink and smoke and shag like billy-o during the rest of the year (and after sundown) held their colleague down in the empty restaurant dining room and removed his shoes and beat the soles of his feet with sticks - because he sneaked in a snack! My partner, who fasts, is not above telling me in disapproving tones of other Moslems we know who break the fast before sundown. There is a huge stigma attached to non-fasting in Ramadan, and even if people are 'allowed' an exemption they often prefer not to take it.

A few years ago, a non-observant Shia friend of mine was in McDonalds during Ramadan (we live in a Sunni area) and the clerk on the counter noticed a veiled young teenaged girl in the queue. The clerk, also a Moslem shouted down the queue telling the young girl to get out as she was not allowed to buy food (it was before 3pm, or whatever time it is that fasters can buy food to take home as they wait for sundown). Anyway, who knows why the young girl was buying food at McDonalds. Maybe she was intending to break the fast, maybe her mum sent her to buy food for younger siblings (who are also exempt). I don't know, my friend didn't know and the woman working on the counter at McDonalds certainly didn't know either. It is up to God to see our faults and failings (if you believe in that sort of thing - which fasters presumably do), but the temptation to bitch people out for not following the herd is too strong, and many people who could be exempted from the fast are too afraid to take it because of what others might say (or do!) to them. Anyway, just because you're exempted for reasons of health or travel doesn't mean you are exempted; you still have to make up the missing fast day/s later in the year. Most people find fasting alone when no one else can see too onerous, so they join in and fast with the group - despite their pregnancy, menstrual cycle, work responsibilities or whatever other reason would allow them to delay their fast.

Pressed add reply way too soon!

[removed duplicate post and edited code]

[ 20. July 2014, 06:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:

quote:
In my experience, most people don't turn into simpletons who are unable to drive or do their jobs when they haven't eat in a few hours. That, combined with the fact that most Islamic authorities allow for exemptions from fasting for those who are traveling (including pilots, bus/taxi drivers, and the like) along with a catch-all hardship exemption, and I'm fairly certain most people will be able to handle it. Your fears reek of prejudice, and are misplaced.
If you read the earlier parts of this thread you'll find several posters telling us how they, personally, experience debilitating physical symptoms when they are fasting. You may be "fairly certain most people can handle it", but all it takes is one person who can't handle it to be driving a vehicle, drilling somebody's tooth or performing an operation and the chances of a nasty accident is high.

These considerations apply to ANYONE who is fasting, not just Moslems during Ramadan.

A lot of prescription medicines come with a warning to the effect "causes drowsiness: do not drive or operate machinery while taking this medicine". I think that fasting (by anyone of any religious persuasion) should come with a similar warning. The question is, what form of warning would be effective?
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Lucia writes:
quote:
For what it's worth, even in the UK I don't think you could ban people from driving when fasting, but perhaps those with teaching authority in the muslim community could do more to recognise the physical challenges of fasting and highlight the need for those fasting to keep themselves and others safe, maybe adapting their routines in some way
In my limited experience in the Ottawa area (where there are few storefront mosques-- I only know of one) and the imams at the Byron St and Saint Jean Bosco mosques are both very sensible in discussing fasting questions (fatwas for those working on construction in hot weather to stay hydrated, etc), but the greater problem is the online bulletin boards which talk up the virtues of suffering during fasting and the heroism of those who damage their health. Sometimes it looks like Xtreme-fasting for young men trying to prove themselves in front of others.
 


© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0