Ship of Fools: New Rector of St. Thomas Fifth Avenue

Thread: New Rector of St. Thomas Fifth Avenue Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by LA Dave (# 1397) on :

On Sunday, the wardens of St. Thomas Fifth Avenue, New York, announced that the Rev. Canon Carl Francis Turner has been called as its next rector. I understand that Canon Turner is the Canon Precentor of Exeter Cathedral and the second UK native to serve as STFA rector in the past 41 years. He will replace the Rev. Andrew Mead, who is retiring after 18 years. Father Mead formerly was rector of Church of the Advent in Boston.

What do English shipmates know of Canon Turner? He appears to be a solid Anglo-Catholic, as was Father Mead.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

In the bio on the St. Thomas web site, it is said that his wife "Alison is a teacher and a priest".

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

Looks like you're getting two for the price of one with Revd Alison Turner.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Looks like you're getting two for the price of one with Revd Alison Turner.

That doesn't sound right. Dead Horse issues aside, they should be willing to pay for two if they are using two.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

My guess is that they'll keep the boundaries pretty distinct indeed to prevent this two-for-one stuff from happening. She's got her own career thank-you-very-much. [Smile]

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

"Two for the price of one" used to be the norm in my far-flung corner of Christendom.
Either she worked hard at Church Activities deemed her province and managed the home as well; or worked even harder by keeping not only the home but also her ordained husband up and running.
Because SHE should have been the priest/minister of the two but women were not deemed ordainable.

Bit of a tangent but just wanted to give some historical (her-storical) perspective for those who might be too young to remember.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Ahem. Two-for-the-price-of-one was hardly the point of my post and is much less interesting by far.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Ahem. Two-for-the-price-of-one was hardly the point of my post and is much less interesting by far.

Is it that a rector of a prominent High Church/Anglo-Catholic church, obstensibly with a significant portion of the congregation in favor of a male- only priesthood, is married to a female priest?

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Ahem. Two-for-the-price-of-one was hardly the point of my post and is much less interesting by far.

What was the point of your post? Are we supposed to guess? If you've got something interesting to say why not say it?

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

I always got the impression that St Thomas Fifth Avenue was more of a high society church with superb music than an A-C bastion. If the new Rector has a wife in Holy Orders that must mean that, as far as the vestry and congregation of STFA is concerned, ordained women are now socially acceptable. I doubt that there will be a Rector at The Church of the Advent with a wife in priest's orders anytime soon. When Andy Mead was Rector there, he got flack from the Vestry because Nancy Mead wore her skirts above the knee and favoured big hats.

[ 21. May 2014, 06:48: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Looks like you're getting two for the price of one with Revd Alison Turner.

Am I the only one who finds this a bit off? To me its says: "The Rector's wife's a nice little woman and not only does she have some nice hats, but when she wants to dress up a bit, the purple for Advent suits her so well".

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Ahem. Two-for-the-price-of-one was hardly the point of my post and is much less interesting by far.
Is it that a rector of a prominent High Church/Anglo-Catholic church, obstensibly with a significant portion of the congregation in favor of a male- only priesthood, is married to a female priest?

Bingo, except as Amos says, they are not Anglocatholic. And, don't forget that bitchin' Ralph Adams Cram building.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Bingo, except as Amos says, they are not Anglocatholic. And, don't forget that bitchin' Ralph Adams Cram building.

I tried to qualify that by stating "High Church" as well. As to your point I would imagine that he is not the only minister that is not on the same wavelength as his congregation on a particular issue. He may not even be on the same page as his wife, in that regard! Yet, both sides will muddle through if they wish to make it work.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Question from ignorant Brit - is Anglo-Catholic as a label in TEC indicative of conservatism when it comes to OoW? In the CoE one can be Anglo-Catholic and pro-OoW (indeed many female clergy here would identify as Anglo-Catholic). I am guessing that's because what would be called Anglo-Catholic in the CoE is just the norm in the TEC, pretty much? Eg St Margaret Bourne St would be considered Anglo-Catholic but not St James West Hampstead (even though here both would be considered A-C)?

Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :

St Thos Vth Ave is a bit of a mystery. At one time they were a bastion of Choral Mattins, and I believe they still do Mattins-followed-by-Holy Communion several times a year. The last time I was there they smoked the place out at Holy Communion and Evensong.

Canon Turner is definitely of the catholic persuasion (he can be seen in Exeter Cathedral close in a roman-style cassock piped in magenta).

He is possessed of a fine singing voice and good musical sensibility. His liturgical sensibilities strike me as somewhat advanced and I expect he will need to get cosy with Ye Olde Fashionede mode to avoid upsetting the worthies on 5th Avenue.

(the sidesmen at St Thomas's wear morning dress, which always rather amuses me).

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
I tried to qualify that by stating "High Church" as well.

You most certainly did. I didn't mean to fussily delineate who's in and who's out, but rather to elicit something like Hooker's Trick surveillance data that Fr. Meade had drug 'em up the candle.

quote:
As to your point I would imagine that he is not the only minister that is not on the same wavelength as his congregation on a particular issue.

Yet this is an issue like no other. Ongoing Rector-Parish relations are like nothing so much as a marriage, with outsiders not able to really appreciate the difficult accommodations made and deep compromises reached; however, at the inception of the relationship we may be reasonably sure that this particular issue, and the other closely related ones of the deceased equine variety, were fully hashed and sorted.

Or, perhaps, mirabile dictu, those boys in the morning coats listened to the Holy Spirit, rather than following the lead of their political noses. [For our younger readers, please be assured that this is not what is meant by morning dress at St. Thomas.]

quote:
He may not even be on the same page as his wife, in that regard!

She makes barely an appearance at all on the Exeter website.

quote:
Yet, both sides will muddle through if they wish to make it work.

Indeed. And, we all wish them Godspeed.

And, we can not forget that Cram building. Are they really going hang another organ off the north wall of the chancel?!

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
You most certainly did. I didn't mean to fussily delineate who's in and who's out, but rather to elicit something like Hooker's Trick surveillance data that Fr. Meade had drug 'em up the candle.

Understood. That does seem to be a perennial question here.

quote:
Yet this is an issue like no other. Ongoing Rector-Parish relations are like nothing so much as a marriage, with outsiders not able to really appreciate the difficult accommodations made and deep compromises reached; however, at the inception of the relationship we may be reasonably sure that this particular issue, and the other closely related ones of the deceased equine variety, were fully hashed and sorted.

I am not au fait* with the inner workings of a TEC parish but I am sure you are right. I was basing my conjectures on my own experiences with my mixed marriage, as it were, and the fact that we once had a minister whose wife decided she was not interested in this God business anymore. No one gave him grief over it.

quote:
Or, perhaps, mirabile dictu, those boys in the morning coats listened to the Holy Spirit, rather than following the lead of their political noses.

'Fraid we aren't going to see eye to eye on what the Holy Spirit is saying about that.

quote:
And, we can not forget that Cram building. Are they really going hang another organ off the north wall of the chancel?!

Wrong person to ask. My shack is organless.

*French for: Up to date.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

He is a very kind, skilled & good man.

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

Has a woman every celebrated mass at St. Thomas? I kind of doubt it, but I don't know.

And to answer a question up thread, no Anglo-Catholic and anti_OoW do not go hand in hand in the US either. And like somebody said, St. Thomas isn't really Anglo-Catholic either. More old-fashioned high church.

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

I wouldn't call the Vestry that conservative. It's pretty well known that when (openly gay) +Gene Robinson was consecrated in 2003, the then-Rector of STFA wanted to withdraw and put the church under the Nigerians or Ugandans or somebody. The Vestry told him that he'd be out of job if he made any move to do that.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

Any word on St Thomas' views on LGBT issues (At the risk of bringing up the DH)

This is the recent article on the subject I found:
http://www.advocate.com/politics/commentary/2007/07/03/doubting-st-thomas

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I wouldn't call the Vestry that conservative. It's pretty well known that when (openly gay) +Gene Robinson was consecrated in 2003, the then-Rector of STFA wanted to withdraw and put the church under the Nigerians or Ugandans or somebody. The Vestry told him that he'd be out of job if he made any move to do that.

Really? The Rector was Andy Mead then too. It's not the sort of thing I would have thought would have been his style. Jurgen Liias, who was AM's 2nd in command at the Advent has gone over, either to the Ordinariate (or the US equivalent) or to some sort of continuing Anglicanism, but Fr Liias wasn't as tapped into the intricacies of the TEC class system as Fr Mead.

Despite making a brief appearance in a poem by Frank O'Hara, St Thomas's is firmly in the DADT camp. Eventually (I'm willing to bet) things will change, but not yet.

[ 24. May 2014, 13:56: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Sorry to double-post. If I wanted the inside dope on the culture of St Thomas Fifth Avenue, the person I would ask would be the Rector's Secretary, Mr Douglas Robbe who has been Miss Moneypenny to Fr Mead's James Bond for nearly thirty years.

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

About 30 years ago I attended many Evening Prayer and Choral Evensong services at St. Thomas, usually after work. I also attended many concerts. The rector at the time was John Andrew, an kind, erudite, gregarious and lovely man.

Clergy and choirs were all male, but that did not seem out of the ordinary in those days. I didn't have the feeling that the role of women -- or gays -- in the Church was an issue that consumed much energy, let alone controversy.

This thread led me to the St. Thomas website, looking for evidence of where the parish stands on some of the issues that have been discussed here. In 2014, Rector, Curate, Assisting Priest, "Theologian-in-Residence" and all 9 clerics described as "honorary clergy" are all men. The is still only one choir -- the highly-regarded Men and Boys Choir.

It's interesting that all but one of the clergy biographies stresses his support of "doctrinal orthodoxy." St. T self-describes as a church which "takes theology seriously." There's nothing necessariliy wrong with orthodoxy, but what strikes me about this is the emphatic, almost challenging repetition of these phrases. What does "orthodoxy" mean at St. T's? The choice of words does seem out of step with most TEC that I am familiar with, even those whose wealth and social prominence is comparable.

I'm not trying to convert this into a Dead Horse discussion, but am genuinely curious about the history leading up to where the church seems to be right now, and how the newly appointed rector might fit into it.

St. Thomas Clergy 2014

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Canon Carl Turner is funky. [Cool]

He's popular with old ladies as well as young people and has a good way of making all visitors to the Cathedral feel welcome. He will be a loss.

Because of his ability to get on well with everyone, he comes across as a middle of the road sort of guy - the sort you'd want to have as a big brother (or a son, depending on your age). His churchmanship is not overly apparent, but his cheeky grin is.

I'll stop there, in case he's reading this and gets a big head!

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I wouldn't call the Vestry that conservative. It's pretty well known that when (openly gay) +Gene Robinson was consecrated in 2003, the then-Rector of STFA wanted to withdraw and put the church under the Nigerians or Ugandans or somebody. The Vestry told him that he'd be out of job if he made any move to do that.
Really? The Rector was Andy Mead then too. It's not the sort of thing I would have thought would have been his style. Jurgen Liias, who was AM's 2nd in command at the Advent has gone over, either to the Ordinariate (or the US equivalent) or to some sort of continuing Anglicanism, but Fr Liias wasn't as tapped into the intricacies of the TEC class system as Fr Mead.

Despite making a brief appearance in a poem by Frank O'Hara, St Thomas's is firmly in the DADT camp. Eventually (I'm willing to bet) things will change, but not yet.

Fr Liias initially was in the ACNA from late 2009 until 2012 when he entered the OCSP. He was ordained a Catholic priest in 2013 and is currently PP for the St Gregory the Great Ordinariate group in Beverly Farms, MA.

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

St. Thomas is, if not Anglo-Catholic, almost so. One gay person e-mailed me some terrible stories about his attitude while at Church of the Advent, but I've never noticed anything of the kind at St. Thomas, so I've discounted them. In fact, a rumor goes that one of the assistants he hired when first taking over was with a view to looking after the gay parishioners and continuing to make them feel at home. Whatever his personal views, he is too intelligent and concerned for the church's ministry as a whole to make an issue.

It may be the same with ordination of women. He spoke out at the time of the consecration of the first female bishop to say that the Episcopal Church was thereby "going out of business" as to the apostolic succession, and he has repeated that view privately much later. On the other hand, when a woman parishioner wished to become a candidate for ordination, he sponsored her. If the church could afford it, he would gladly open a second choir school, for girls.

As to liturgy and ceremonial, I was expecting it to go a little higher under Fr. Mead, but he has made few changes there, after Fr. Andrew's enthusiastic moves up the candle. Perhaps a major reason is that he believes that it would be a pastoral mistake to lengthen the service. Ten-to-twelve minute sermons are also the rule to that end.

Judging from his resume, Fr. Turner seems to be exactly what the vestry were looking for and I am delighted with his appointment. Everyone seems to be on the same wavelength about the immense value of the choir school, as expensive as it is, and finding a rector who fully appreciates and understands the choral tradition was a major desideratum. I'd like to hear more about him from those who know.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

Does anyone have any insight as to the Rev. Canon's theology? I have heard some troubling things through the grapevine.

Posted by The Venerable Bede (# 18202) on :

To answer the question posed as to what Americans mean by "Anglo-Catholic", it has little or nothing to do with theology. It basically means that the church follows closely the traditional structure of the service, pre-Vatican II. Many of them are Elizabethan. However, a church using this type of liturgy can be anything from extremely conservative theologically to the opposite extreme.

Posted by The Venerable Bede (# 18202) on :

In reference to the subject raised of "two for the price of one", very common in Evangelical churches, I have to say from lots of experience I detest that concept with all my heart!!! Unless, however, the job offer was made jointly -- totally different story then. Otherwise, what happens is that the spouse (who could be a male spouse just as well) ends up pushing his or her way into positions of trust or authority not earned and not envisioned by the committee that made the hire. I know of many such instances, where a totally incompetent person rises to enormous power and authority in a church by virtue of their spouse. One example is one of the largest evangelical churches in NYC, where upon being appointed head pastor said head pastor immediately appointed his spouse a full preaching pastor -- a person whose preaching wouldn't be considered good enough for most home-group Bible studies. Another example, an Episcopalian rector (a female) appointed her husband the church secretary, and he alienated everyone with a horrible attitude and an assumption that he could do anything he pleased without accountability. Again, "two for the price of one" is fine if the committee extends a joint call to the couple. If not, find some other church to preach or teach or lead worship in.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

A warm welcome to you, The Venerable Bede. Please take time to check out our various board rules and posting guidelines, notably our Ten Commandments, and do post a hello on the Welcome Aboard thread in All Saints if you wish!

Eutychus
Purgatory Host

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Venerable Bede:
To answer the question posed as to what Americans mean by "Anglo-Catholic", it has little or nothing to do with theology.

Not for me. For me it's all about sacraments and such, and not at all about liturgical style.

Posted by matteob (# 18221) on :

Carl is a lovely man. He is an Anglo Catholic but never struck me as an arch conservative during his tenure at Exeter. Neither will there be any danger of prejudice against gays such as has been claimed against the outgoing Rector. I know quite a few discreetly gay clergy in the Exeter diocese, one a good friend, and they all hold Carl in high esteem. Despite being Precentor of Exeter when I was worshipping there (whilst at the University there) he was always humble and loved to chat over a coffee after Eucharist.. He also made special care to welcome new faces and visitors and Tourists. He was part of a lovely Chapter when I was there. The Dean Keith Jones (who went to York) was a lovely man as was the Late Neil Collings (who went to St Edmundsury as Dean) and David Ison who is now Dean of St Pauls. All apart from Keith were High Churchmen but Keith was a skillful diplomat who never allowed a bad atmosphere. This is more than can be said for the new Dean of Exeter Jonathan Draper (an American) who Is an Evangelical who has proved unpopular there from what I have heard due ro sweeping changes in the liturgy and the amount if time the choir sings. I guess this may have helped push Carl out. He will be sorely missed in Devon and the folks in New York are lucky.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Welcome, matteob!

Please take your time to check out the Ship's Ten Commandments, FAQs and posting guidelines - even more so in that this thread deals with named individuals, and we are keen not to sail into libellous waters...

You can also say hi on the official Welcome Aboard thread in All Saints.

Eutychus
Purgatory Host

Posted by matteob (# 18221) on :

Though to be fair to Jonathan Draper the new Dean of Exeter, he has a progrsssive view of gays in the church foo as can be seen by his response to an Exeter Evangelical Church banning a gay couple.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-23246888

Posted by John Senig (# 18205) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
He is a very kind, skilled & good man.

As a member of St. Thomas's Church, my experience with Father Turner (at least so far) has been that he is indeed a very kind, skilled, and good man.

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