Ship of Fools: Homeschooling

Thread: Homeschooling Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

A reference to homeschooling on a Heaven thread prompted me to ask for experiences of (as teacher or student), and opinions regarding, homeschooling.

We have known missionaries who have done it because they had no choice, using secular syllabi provided by their home countries’ education systems.

I have heard of Christians doing it, using material written by homeschooling organizations, but have had no direct contact with any of them.

What are the social, educational and theological arguments for and against the practice?

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

Libby Anne is worth reading.

And the basic issue is that with knowledgeable and engaged parents who can put full time equivalent work into each child and are willing to do so, and who don't try to shirk the national standards, and make sure the socialisation isn't a problem, it can work. Few people can afford that sort of investment.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Kaplan Corday

Remote parts of Scotland and Wales might be different, but from an English point of view, homeschooling is mostly seen as something you do as a last resort, because your child has health or behavioural issues. Alternatively, it's seen as a possibility only for extremely wealthy families, or for child actors, etc. It seems to be more about bringing in an outside tutor than about the parents doing the job themselves, although there are some parents who do it.

The problem with homeschooling for educated English middle class families is that it's now almost impossible to maintain a middle class lifestyle in England unless both parents are working. Families on benefits with unemployed but well-educated members could perhaps homeschool their children, in theory. It must be very rare, though.

As for practising Christian families, they often try to get their children into CofE or RC schools. There are a tiny number of schools run by (and for) evangelicals, but I should think most evangelicals attend the same schools as everyone else. The British Christian subculture isn't big enough to create an influential homeschooling ideology, though I suppose there's some organisation somewhere that would like to be in that position.

Worries about poor socialisation tend to be made about highly gifted children who are tutored by their parents. But I think some state schools are trying to do more to support these children now, so parents don't have to withdraw them.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

In the United States, you can find quite a few home-schoolers. As I understand it, many of the parents involved have views I would regard as extreme and do not want their children exposed to specific ideas such as evolution. I can imagine someone living in some parts of the U.S. who might choose home-schooling for the opposite reason, that they do want their children exposed to ideas that they would not encounter in a public school. (Private schools would be seen as too expensive for many people to consider.)

Some may be motivated by living in remote locations; home-schooling may be seen as an easier alternative than driving one's child to and from school a substantial distance on each school day. (I encountered this explanation when I was visiting Essex, Montana.)

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

There are a number of groups of home-schoolers in the UK, enough that there's:
a section in Guardian Education
a discussion on netmums
a whole discussion board on mumsnet
The Free-Range Education site
Home Education UK

There is more, but I'm out of contact with this world now.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

I've known lots of homeschooling families. As an elementary school principal I have given assistance to homeschoolers within the bounds of what is practical and legal.

Mostly it is a positive experience for them. My experience is that it normally happens with children who are bright and parents who are imaginative and involved. Often it is a response to some challenge the child faces, or to something in the local school system that isn't working for a family.

Most commonly, in my experience, families do it for a year or two, after which the child rejoins the class. There have been few negative educational consequences.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

Reasons given for homeschooling (in the US): don't want the kids "brainwashed" with the liberal secular athiest agenda (popular among some conservatives); unschooling (popular among some liberals); local schools are of very bad quality (rare, since people in such areas rarely have the resources needed to home school, or they wouldn't be living there); remote location; illness.

I have known poeple in the first two categories, although a lot more in the first category. Some do not try to teach everything themselves, but work together as a group, either hiering teachers or each parent teaching the subject they are best qualified to teach. so in effect they have a sort of mini private school. I also knew a woman who homeschooled, but who also worked (single mom). she managed this by having the kids do their schoolwork (from material provided by her school system) in the evenings. what she did with them all day I don't remmeber, but I know that she did often take them places as part of their education (such as museums, but also traveling). her work allowed her the flexibiilty to manage this. The biggest problem she ran into (this was quite a few years ago, things may have changed) was getting her kids into college. because the only verification of having "graduated" they had was a GED, which was generally frowned upon by most colleges. I think she had them go to a community college and then transfer to a better school (then they didn't look at the HS level work). I think now many colleges have provisions for evaluating homeschoolers.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

In western Canada, it appears that it is more often because of religious ideas, often in the areas where religion is believed to be challenged by science, though also because the parents are concerned about the wrong sorts of social and moral values being either directly taught or gained vie exposure to other children.

My experience with such kids is that they are invariably more polite and deferent to adults, and look to their parents for answers to difficult questions. The parents vary a lot. Some are articulate and open, and others are rather defensive and suspicious. My personal experience is that it tends to be more extreme on both ends (openness and suspicious).

On the personal side, my sister's children were home-schooled until mid-high school. It was not until then that the learning problem for one of them was identified, and that they began to experience some social difficulties with children not skilled in managing themselves with other teenagers. They followed one of American programs "ACE" which means that some aspects of their education differ from the mainstream, i.e., creationism, evolution. I find, as uncle, that these children did not do well with home schooling, probably due to the level of parenting, so I have a bias against in general from this, which I try to recognise when these issues arise for discussion.

I've only had some limited exposure to unschooling per my work roles. Usually after the children have come to the attention of the authorities in some way (child protection, police etc). So my sample is rather biased. It does seem to be a relatively unstructured approach, which might work for children with good self control and innate curiousity. I would like to hear more about it from people who've experience with non-troubled children.

There is a rise of on-line courses, often as a supplement to school attendance when a course is not on offer but can be obtained o9n the computer. This is an interesting movement, though I wonder again about the purposes of education: is it knowledge and learning, or is it about social development? I think the latter is probably what it is about for at least half the time: how to get along with others, how to navigate through disagreements, how to work together, how to manage routines, deadlines and other usual markers of living in a society.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Remote parts of Scotland and Wales might be different,

Nope, not really. Generally in Scotland primary schools will stay open so long as they have pupils (even if it's only 2) and secondary age students will generally board weekly if they are too far from a secondary school. In reality there are very few pupils for whom that is the case - even out here on an island of much less than 1000 people we have a full secondary school. In Wales there are very few places likely to be more than an hour from a secondary school.

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

In 2012, one of the groups already mentioned estimated that around 60,000 children in the UK might be being home schooled.
Usually this is primary school children, but senior school as well.

It's rarely Only Done At Home; be honest, which parent could ever cope with that scenario?! In the UK there are any number of geographically based groups which come together to support both children and parents...and also to offer help with those kinda subjects that Need group work.

My own extended family has a child who is currently being (mostly) home schooled-on the advice of the family's own education department and very successful this is proving to be.

[ 20. August 2014, 18:15: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

There was a thread on this only last year (or maybe earlier this year) which ran to several pages. I posted my experiences as a homeschooled student on there, and I remember a couple of other contributors did also. Also parents who had chosen to homeschool, for various reasons. It might be worth trying to dig out.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

This one?

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
There are a number of groups of home-schoolers in the UK, enough that there's:
a section in Guardian Education
a discussion on netmums
a whole discussion board on mumsnet
The Free-Range Education site
Home Education UK

There is more, but I'm out of contact with this world now.

Education Otherwisehas been around for about 40 years.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Adding to what I posted on the previous thread to say that we just had a serious problem with two families who home-schooled their broods for religious reasons. This is an anecdote and doesn't mean that everyone doing it is crazy.

Situation: Dutch-descent family, running a bakery and selling through farmer's markets and other direct contact: at least 6 kids, whose weekends (and many weekdays) are tied up with selling baked goods and then going to church.

Separately, an intensely RC family with about 6 kids, not sure about income source.

Both fathers domineering, mothers acquiescent.

Both sets home-schooled to avoid pollution from the outside world, and to enforce religious discipline. Kids reputed to be very polite, but the ones I have met have a sullenness that doesn't look positive.

The oldest son of the RC family is the shooter who killed 3 RCMP and wounded 2 more. Had been reading anti-police screeds online (even though he had never been "outside" long enough to get into trouble). I could speculate on some psych issues.

One of the son of the baker family was also strongly active on that sort of anti-everyone site. He posted some extremely hateful threats against the RCMP in the days after the shooting, and was eventually arrested for everyone's (including his) safety.

The home-schooling in those cases was more a symptom of dysfunctional religion than it was an issue in itself - the kids are literate and numerate, even if in possession of spotty history and science information.

I have never met other religious-reason home-school kids who were that dysfunctional, BUT they do/did exhibit serious deficiencies in general background and in social interaction when they arrive in high school (and they often don't know their Bible well either!)

I'd be very cautious in recommending home-schooling for religious reasons (as if people inclined that way would care what I think!)

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

Religious-reason home-educators may be more a prevalent in the US than the UK. I came across some in the 1980's-90's who'd joined Education Otherwise but AFAIK most of them left and formed their own support networks. IME the general ethos of EO was inclusive, liberal and geared towards children having freedom to follow their own interests and learn in their own way.

[ 21. August 2014, 07:05: Message edited by: justlooking ]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Do people who have been home educated tend to then go on and home educate their own children ?

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do people who have been home educated tend to then go on and home educate their own children ?

Some do, some don't. A lot will depend on the other parent who probably hasn't been involved in home education. They'll know it's always an option though. I mentioned EO as being around 40 years old because the children who were members in the earlier years are all middle-aged now. AFAIK from my own experience and from various surveys involving EO families the children seem to grow into well-adjusted and responsible adults who have steady jobs and stable relationships.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Sorry, I knew about Education Otherwise but it didn't come up on a quick search and having not really used them myself, just having friends who went that route, I couldn't immediately remember where to look.

My experience has been with families home educating around illness and did it myself for a couple of years, but we stayed within the school system because of all the problems with the exam system, rather than registering as home educated.

Posted by Mili (# 3254) on :

As a teacher I like reading about educational issues and also find subcultures within western societies interesting, so somehow stumbled across this website Home Schoolers Anonymous . A place where former home schoolers from ultra conservative Christian families (mostly from the USA) who have had often negative experiences of home schooling share stories. Some just found they did not agree with creationism, female submission, homophobia, the discipline used or other parts of their strict upbringing. Others more seriously suffered abuse, which was made worse by their limited contact with the outside world.

The stories on Patrick Henry College that caters only to home schoolers are also interesting.

My mother and her siblings were brought up pretty conservatively Baptist in the 50s to 70s Australia but lucky for them, though their father was abusive and violent, their mother was a great parent and they attended state schools so got to see a different point of view and their friends' parents' happy more equal marriages.

Of course thankfully not all home schooling is done like this and in my experience can work out well for families or individual children in certain circumstances.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

Home schoolers from 'ultra conservative Christian families' are probably not representative of the majority of home schoolers in the USA and, I'd say, certainly not in the UK. From my experience UK home educators are broadly liberal and support self-directed learning.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I'm in my sixties. I've known a few people who were brought up before the Kaiser's war who never went to school in the conventional sense at all. I've known people brought up between the wars who did not attend primary schools, but did go to school in the normal way later on. Oddly, it didn't seem to have done any of them any harm. Education has been compulsory in the UK since the 1870s and to do that I think the parents had to ensure their children were being educated, rather than just put to work.

I have only heard of one case of anyone since 1945 being educated other than in a school, and those were missionary children about 40 years ago in a very remote foreign location. I believe they had school books etc sent out to them and their mother ensured they worked through them. I don't know whether they ended up ahead or behind when they had to return home and make their way in the world. I don't know, for example, whether that way one is likely to be able to achieve the GCSE and A level passes etc one needs to get into any sort of university or professional training.

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

Quite a lot of home schooling in East Anglia - often related to Steiner-type philosophy of the parents - the kids I've seen - I think the parents character has an effect anyhow, and all the good and not so good stuff end up being marinated into the kids just that bit more. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule on the principle - except that when it works well, it seems to work very well. The best arrangement I've seen was with the local english moslem group - they have a network all over the uk and europe, and the kids ended up with fantastic schooling from a wide range of adults in education syllabus, practical skills and languages, and all the ones I met were highly articulate and confident. Since that group has got a bit more radical I don't think it works quite so well.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

.....I don't know, for example, whether that way one is likely to be able to achieve the GCSE and A level passes etc one needs to get into any sort of university or professional training.

GCSE, A level exams and other qualifications can all be taken by home educated students. Some register as private candidates and sit the exams at a recognised centre, which may be a school. Others enrol on exam courses through non-school providers such as Further Education colleges, evening classes or other part-time provision. I've known several teenagers who've gained GCSE, A level and BTEC qualifications through part-time attendance at FE colleges or other adult education providers. One example is a 13 year old girl who enrolled on an A level course at evening classes and no-one realised her age until two years later when she took the exam. It just happened to be a subject she was especially interested in.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Someone mentioned Accelerated Christian Learning.

Beware - it is a godsend for parents because it is all set up and can be done by computer - but, as well as teaching creationism, it is a yes/no - only one right answer so kids don't learn discussion nor questioning.

And when kids get enough right answers, they are rewarded with ....... a bible text.

Not a great motivator for normal kids.

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

One reason I originally decided not to go to church again at about 8yo was that our reward for - can't remember what - was a stamp to stick in a stamp album. I remember looking at it thinking how pointless it was, and looking outside through the dusty glass windows and how much the sun was shining.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Home schoolers from 'ultra conservative Christian families' are probably not representative of the majority of home schoolers in the USA and, I'd say, certainly not in the UK. From my experience UK home educators are broadly liberal and support self-directed learning.

A study by the US Dept. of Ed. says 77% of homeschoolers were motivated by "desire to provide moral instruction". That could mean a lot of things, of course, but it sounds mostly like code for conservative Christian values. Apparently this is a decline from prior years (even as total number of homeschoolers is rising) but still very much the majority. So, while American homeschoolers are a relatively large & diverse lot, it still is primarily conservative Christians.

Dept. of Ed. study

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I trained at a college founded by Charlotte Mason (who originally trained governesses, to work in individual homes). Her methods now are better known to parents who homeschool, particularly in the US. References on the internet are too numerous to mention individually, but this page will help you investigate further.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

And when kids get enough right answers, they are rewarded with ....... a bible text.

Not a great motivator for normal kids.

There are worse methods of motivation.

Some friends told us about a Christian school they visited which had, on the class-room wall, photos of the kids surrounding a picture of Jesus, the distance of each photo from the picture signifying how the kid was performing.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... Some friends told us about a Christian school they visited which had, on the class-room wall, photos of the kids surrounding a picture of Jesus, the distance of each photo from the picture signifying how the kid was performing.

That is really bad, educationally, humanly, theologically and spiritually.

[ 22. August 2014, 08:32: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Unbiblical, too. What happened to 'the last shall be first'?

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

I have a friend who is trying homeschooling for one of her 3 due to mental health and school stress issues. Had a lot of negative responses from the family support services - looking for religious reasons (you are friends with a minister...)and no idea about the networks of support and all the other socialisation options (at times when he is strong enough to face the outside world).

Recently been in the states and a regular advert was for a curriculum for home schooling that was provided as part of the state school provision for families who sign up - and links to teachers etc.

Interesting, but not enough for me to remember the name to google a link for you.

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

Our parish Music Director also gives private music lessons. I've been asking for help with my organist duties for some time. The Music Director suggested that two of her students would be able to provide some help from time to time. The students, two sisters, were from a family that was involved with an ultra-conservative religious group and were both home schooled. They were unquestionably musically gifted but I found them both to be lacking the most basic social skills that one would expect from 16-17 yr. teens. They spoke only when spoken to. When they did speak they lowered their heads and took great pains to avoid eye contact. They seemed unable or unwilling to connect with any of our younger choir members and musicians who are a very gregarious bunch. I understand the older sister went on to study music at a small very conservative RC college and did well. The younger sister attended a large university for one term. I was told that she had had a great many problems dealing with a diverse student body and left the school. This may be an extreme example but I've heard variation of this story over and over.

I don't think home schooling provides a child with adequate opportunities to develop the social skills required with living in the large society. I also can't imagine a parent having the skills necessary to teach their own child. Frau Organmeister has taught English/Brit. Lit. in the public schools for 30+ yrs. and she often has said that she could never imagine home schooling Organmeister the Younger.

Posted by Good for Nothing (# 17722) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Our parish Music Director also gives private music lessons. I've been asking for help with my organist duties for some time. The Music Director suggested that two of her students would be able to provide some help from time to time. The students, two sisters, were from a family that was involved with an ultra-conservative religious group and were both home schooled. They were unquestionably musically gifted but I found them both to be lacking the most basic social skills that one would expect from 16-17 yr. teens. They spoke only when spoken to. When they did speak they lowered their heads and took great pains to avoid eye contact. They seemed unable or unwilling to connect with any of our younger choir members and musicians who are a very gregarious bunch. I understand the older sister went on to study music at a small very conservative RC college and did well. The younger sister attended a large university for one term. I was told that she had had a great many problems dealing with a diverse student body and left the school. This may be an extreme example but I've heard variation of this story over and over.

I don't think home schooling provides a child with adequate opportunities to develop the social skills required with living in the large society. I also can't imagine a parent having the skills necessary to teach their own child. Frau Organmeister has taught English/Brit. Lit. in the public schools for 30+ yrs. and she often has said that she could never imagine home schooling Organmeister the Younger.

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