Ship of Fools: So, what can I expect at a Church of England service?

Thread: So, what can I expect at a Church of England service? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by dalej42 (# 10729) on :

I'm going to London for my first time ever in March of 2014. I'm hoping to worship at an Anglican church almost every day, although one or two of those days might be an Evensong service.

I imagine I'll find a Church of England service very similar to an Episcopal Church service in the USA. Since I am a member of an Episcopal church, I think I can take communion freely in the Church of England.

Is there an equivalent to the 1979 Book of Common Prayer that is used in England?

London is a big city, so I'd imagine that even the smallest churches there welcome visitors.

What is the usual dress for services? I'll usually be wearing a long sleeve shirt, khakis or dress pants, and nice, but comfortable shoes. I'd prefer to not have to bring a coat and tie with me, but if that is the norm, I can do it.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Er, ahhhh, ummmm....

No there is no equivalent of the US book. And there is no guarantee what you will get, every church is different. There may be some much like your American services, but there will be others that are very, very, different.

Whereabouts in London are you going to stay? We might be able to suggest some nearby churches.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

There's a far greater variety of worship in the "CofE" than in the US Episcopal church, because the latter is basically middle of the road with some AC places sticking out. THe CofE has far less uniformity, with far more places to either side of the middle in both directions.

Although there is a rough equivalent of the US book, it is not compulsory. Some places will use the 1662 for some or all services. SOme places will use one or other of the AC alternatives (far more places than you'd run into in the US, especially if you're mainly in London). And some places will effectively jettison any recognisably ANglican worship altogether, at least as a US Episcopalian would define Anglican, and at services reasonably accessible to a visitor.

As for clothing, I've never been turned away whatever I was wearing. I don't think I've ever been the only man at a service who wasn't wearing a jacket and tie. I can't speak for the level of comfort of the regulars, but I've never noticed them commenting or taking snide glances in my direction.

John

Posted by dalej42 (# 10729) on :

I'll be staying near the Covent Garden area in London. I'm interested in places that would be considered liberal in the USA, but hopefully with a high church tradition.

Posted by SyNoddy (# 17009) on :

It's fair to say that the CofE is broad church and that even within a single church you can often find a range of services covering a spectrum of styles and flavours of churchmanship. At my local parish church we have on offer a 8:00am service which uses the Book of Common Prayer; a 10:15am sung service using Common Worship; and occasional evening services which could be traditional Evensong, Taize or Ionan, Northumbrian etc. Just down the road from us there's the choice of incense & bells or worship band depending whether you take a left or a right turning at the road junction, and that's just the choice available to you in our small corner of middle England. I imagine that the choice in London would be far greater so why not embrace the range on offer and try out a few? As a communicant member of the CofE I'd expect to be welcome to participate in Communion at any CofE church or church in Communion with the CofE. Guess you would be made very welcome too. As for dress, it's generally a "come as you are" rule but wear whatever you feel is appropriate to worship. Hope you have a good trip to the UK and enjoy your time in "that London".

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Common Worship is in fact somewhat akin to the American 1979 BCP, though with an even wider range of options. If you are staying around Covent Garden, places I would recommend would include St Clement Danes, St Alban's Holborn, possibly St Martin in the Fields, All Saints Margaret Street (slightly farther afield but still relatively close), and of course one should attend Evensong at Westminster Abbey. An American Episcopalian will feel quite at home any of these places, I think. Of the places I've mentioned, only St Martin in the Fields isn't high up the candle. I believe some of the weekday masses for St Clement Danes are crlebrated at St Mary le Strand, which is literally within spitting distance of St Clement's -- they both occupy islands in the middle of the Strand.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dalej42:
I'll be staying near the Covent Garden area in London. I'm interested in places that would be considered liberal in the USA, but hopefully with a high church tradition.

I didn't go to this parish when I went to London a few years ago, but my friend recommended it:

http://www.stmartin-in-the-fields.org/

According to Google Maps, it's a 7 minute walk from Covent Garden.

St Martin is, according to my friend, the liberal Church in downtown London.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Liberalism but mildly formal near Covent Garden? St Paul's Covent Garden is right there.

St Martins is a wonderful building and one of the most historically loaded churches in London. Also has BCP evening services some times. As does St Pancras (new) church, about 10 or 15 minutes walk away opposite Euston station. Another famously liberal place. St Pancras Old Church is a bit further away, much smaller, and in a place tourists are unlikely to go, but worth a visit. Especially for anyone with a gloomy gothic turn of mind. ( truly weird graveyard).

All Saints Margaret Street is also a little further away and is a very atypical church but there is nothing quite like it anywhere else. And only two hundred yards or so further is All Souls Langham Place which is utterly different.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Onr thing you will find at almost every central London CofE parish - ironically St Paul's Covent Garden is an exception - is a flourishing choral tradition on Sundays with polyphonic mass settings and canticle settings at Evensong, and of course at St Paul's, Westminster Abbey and Southwark Cathedral during the week.

Can I add the following to what has already been suggested:

St John Hyde Park, 10am
St James Paddington, 10.30am
Holy Trinity Sloane Square, 11am
St Peter's Eaton Square, 9.45 and 11.15
St Bride's Fleet Street, 11am
St Marylebone, 11am

For an atmospheric evensong you would be hard pressed to beat St Bartholemew the Great (6.30) though St Bride's (5.30) All Saints Margaret St 6pm, and Chelsea Old Church are also very nice.

Finally St George Hanover Square, and Grosvenor Chapel (both 11am) often get US visitors because of proximity to the embassy.

I have found that central London is slightly more formal than elsewhere but a jacket, nice shirt and chinos are the norm rather than fully suited.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Another one that's almost certainly worth a look is St Paul's Knightsbridge. I've attended concerts there, not worship.

When are you over? I'd be up for visiting some churches - I've attended quite a few of that list, already. I also want to attend choral evensong at the painted chapel in the old Royal Naval College at Greenwich.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dalej42:
... What is the usual dress for services? I'll usually be wearing a long sleeve shirt, khakis or dress pants, and nice, but comfortable shoes. I'd prefer to not have to bring a coat and tie with me, but if that is the norm, I can do it.

When you say 'coat' do you mean what we'd mean by a coat, or a jacket? I'd definitely advise having some sort of warm and waterproof outer garment if you are visiting Britain in March. You can get a few springlike days at the end of March. Weather here is fairly unpredictable. March tends to be cold and windy. Rain falls at all seasons .

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Has anyone suggested St. James, Piccadilly, with the estimable Rev. Lucy Winkett? I would have thought that could be well worth a try.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Liberalism but mildly formal near Covent Garden? St Paul's Covent Garden is right there.

St Martins is a wonderful building and one of the most historically loaded churches in London. Also has BCP evening services some times. As does St Pancras (new) church, about 10 or 15 minutes walk away opposite Euston station. Another famously liberal place. St Pancras Old Church is a bit further away, much smaller, and in a place tourists are unlikely to go, but worth a visit. Especially for anyone with a gloomy gothic turn of mind. ( truly weird graveyard).

All Saints Margaret Street is also a little further away and is a very atypical church but there is nothing quite like it anywhere else. And only two hundred yards or so further is All Souls Langham Place which is utterly different.

All Saints Margaret Street demands a visit simply for the splendid, sumptuous interior architecture, recently restored to its glory after long accumulation of grime from the smoke of incense, candles, and London air. It's true that there is nothing quite like it anywhere, but this must be placed in context of its progressive Anglo-Catholicism, which makes it not utterly dissimilar to places like St Mary the Virgin Times Square, for instance, in the USA (though ASMS features what Americans would identify as Rite I language, and has a chancel choir, whereas SMV uses Rite II idiom and has a loft choir). The music at ASMS can only be described as grand. The preaching there is normally of a very high standard, especially that of the vicar.

Someone mentioned St James Piccadilly, but although the building is worth a look-in, IMO it is not worth spending time on for a liturgy if you are only in London for a very limited amount of time. I'd actually tend to say the same of St Martin in the Fields, but mentioned it since it is on the western fringes of Covent Garden, faces Trafalgar Square, and is somewhere you will undoubtedly stalk past anyway. Frankly I wouldn't bother with St Paul's Cathedral for a liturgy either.
Don't bother with All Souls Langham Place unless you want to subject yourself to an evangelical protestant experience that looks nothing like any form of Anglicanism you will ever have encountered, and a space that has basically been made into an auditorium. The exterior of the building is noteworthy only.

Agree that Southwark Cathedral is lovely, and St Bart's the Great is amazing due to its antiquity alone, though also quite high up the candle.

Remember that you will be able to get within easy walking distance pretty much anywhere by tube, so distance isn't a huge issue.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, years since I've worshipped at Southwark Cathedral but it is I think liturgically high by cathedral standards (CofE cathedrals tend to be more MOTR), and for many of us Southwark is THE liberal diocese par excellence. In a very historic bit of the South Bank, too.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

If you are looking to attend daily worship, it's worth noting that St. Martin in the Fields has a choral Eucharist and also a choral Evensong on Wednesdays, sung by their choral scholars. It makes an interesting change from cathedral sung Evensong. The city churches produce a monthly brochure detailing all the midweek services at all the churches (some of these only have midweek services due to their location) - this is invaluable when deciding when and where to go. Several of the city churches stock this leaflet, or else it is obtainable from Tourist Information near St. Paul's Cathedral. You can also download monthly information here. I used to attend St. Botolph's Bishopsgate on a Thursday lunchtime (often led by a small choir) and can recommend this for someone used to Episcopal style church services.

Posted by Lou Poulain (# 1587) on :

I'm an Episcopalian, who was in London in 2006, and we attended Holy Trinity Sloan Square. High up the candle; glorious choir and the church , built in the Arts and Crafts era is lovely.

Readings from NIV. I don't know the source of the EP. Definitely not BCP, but didn't sound like Common Worship to me either.

One AC touch I've never seen here in the USA happened during communion. There are several steps up to the altar rail in the apse, and one parishioner needed to have communion brought to her in the nave. The priest and deacon brought communion to her, accompanied by the two torch bearers and thurifer. The processed down the steps to the nave amidst wisps of incense, administered the sacrament, then processed back to the altar. I was very surprised at the formality of the event!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

Don't bother with All Souls Langham Place unless you want to subject yourself to an evangelical protestant experience that looks nothing like any form of Anglicanism you will ever have encountered, and a space that has basically been made into an auditorium. The exterior of the building is noteworthy only.
[/QB]

But it is a flag ship church for many members of the C of E (but not me). I imagine evangelicals in the USA have so much choice, there's no point in TEC going evo, but they are a growing and important part of the C of E. All Souls is probably quite staid compared to St George's Queen's Square. (Not to be confused in a month of Sundays with St George's Bloomsbury.)

Posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic (# 12722) on :

As has been implied, you will be welcome at any Anglican church in London whatever you are wearing, and baptized Christians who normally receive communion at home are always welcome to do so in the Church of England.

Some representative parishes have already been mentioned, but it may be worth giving a little list as far as Covent Garden and trips away from Covent Garden are concerned:

S. Paul's Covent Garden - liberal catholic, similar to TEC.
S. Martin-in-the-Fields - middle of the road, liberal
S. James' Piccadilly - similar, but more liberal
S. Matthew's Westminster - modern catholic
S. Stephen's Rochester Row - central, 'normal CofE'
S. Mary's Bourne Street - very catholic, lovely interior
All Saints Margaret Street - catholic, again a striking interior
All Souls Langham Place - a mainstream evangelical flagship
S. Magnus Lower Thames Street - very catholic, English Missal
S. Helen's Bishopsgate - conservative evangelical
Holy Trinity Brompton - charismatic evangelical

That is probably enough to be getting on with!

Posted by fabula rasa (# 11436) on :

I'm afraid that there's an important lacuna in many of the answers above--dalej42 has asked for churches that would be considered liberal in the USA. That actually limits his choice to very few, and sadly excludes all but the top 5 on Oxonian's otherwise good list, because the others all have very conservative views of one sort or another.

Having said that, I agree with LSvK about All Saints' Margaret Street being worth visiting--but be warned that the congregation is, on the whole very conservative! (The Vicar, however, not.)

Southwark Cathedral probably best combination of what an American would call liberalism(!) and good liturgy.

Dale, enjoy your trip! And nobody cares what you wear--just be comfortable.

Posted by fabula rasa (# 11436) on :

Sorry--missed edit window.

It occurred to me that it might be more helpful to be clearer about "conservative views", because that phrase is interpreted in slightly different ways either side of the pond: dale, in a number of the churches listed women aren't allowed to preside at the eucharist and are generally unwelcome to preach; at some divorce/ees are not remarried or are not warmly welcomed except as repentant sinners; and at some the latter is true of lesbian and gay people.

Hope this clarifies a bit.

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic:
All Saints Margaret Street - catholic, again a striking interior

I have never had the privilege of attending a service there, but would head in that direction should the opportunity arise. In the early 1980s, a northern Baptist friend was to be in London during Holy Week; and I mentioned that if I were ever so fortunate, I wouldn't want to miss the services at All Saints', Margaret Street. Although I wasn't expecting him to follow through with the hint, he did attend, was moved, and returned to the U.S. an Anglican at heart. He was confirmed shortly thereafter.

We had freezing rain overnight such that today I had to miss my duties as Organist and Choirmaster some twenty miles away. Rather than just staying home, I attended the local Episcopal church and sang as a guest in the choir. The choir is pretty good and in good leadership hands. Nevertheless, I could no longer be comfortable attending there regularly. It's been years since I've encountered an Episcopal parish trying so hard to be Methodist (and not succeeding very well, as can be expected). In the good old days (which extended to some twenty years ago), a venerable choir of men and boys still gave it stature in the borough (especially in lessons and carols in Advent). But nowadays, I don't think that anyone knows, or any outsider cares, what the parish stands for. It's just there, among dozens of other ecclesial communities. For instance, the choir gathered unceremoniously at the chancel steps to sing the anthem to the congregation. At the conclusion, the congregation applauded-- as was the only polite thing to do after such a presentation. Worshitainment prevails.

Mind you, I'm an old Puseyite socially, and politically, and liturgically. But I wouldn't insist, in theory, on that much. If liturgics had to bend for larger social and political ends, I'd bend. Yet I'm less and less convinced over the years that such a concession accompishes anything.

As an old friend recently explained to me in the hospital (when he was not certain that he would recover), the strength of Anglicanism is "decently and in order." It might not be the "warmest" or most "inspiring" watchword we can imagine, but on that basis it tamed upper classes who might have otherwise become totally exploitative and libertine. In the U.S. in the early 20th century, it set liturgical, musical, and even architectural standards to which any other denomination aspiring to respectability had to aspire. Among our most effective evangelists were throngs of choirboys hoping, however crassly, for a bicycle or a free week of summer camp: all they had to do was go into highways and hedges totally alien to their seniors, although natural enough to themselves, recruiting agemates to sing in the choir: just sing and have fun, they could honestly say, no need to join the church. But whadyaknow, a goodly portion ended up doing just that. Why stoop to a hard sell when the soft sell works so well? The Episcopal Church was poised to sweep all before her. Then she lost her nerve, cast her treasure overboard, and became rudderless.

I regret that, and do so as a liberal. Does that me an arch-conservative? Perhaps what kind of church one seeks in London "as a liberal" depends on one's attitude towards that proposition.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Has anyone suggested St. James, Piccadilly, with the estimable Rev. Lucy Winkett? I would have thought that could be well worth a try.

Does she still get to sing?

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
Onr thing you will find at almost every central London CofE parish - ironically St Paul's Covent Garden is an exception - is a flourishing choral tradition on Sundays with polyphonic mass settings and canticle settings at Evensong, and of course at St Paul's, Westminster Abbey and Southwark Cathedral during the week.

Can I add the following to what has already been suggested:

St John Hyde Park, 10am
St James Paddington, 10.30am
Holy Trinity Sloane Square, 11am
St Peter's Eaton Square, 9.45 and 11.15
St Bride's Fleet Street, 11am
St Marylebone, 11am

For an atmospheric evensong you would be hard pressed to beat St Bartholemew the Great (6.30) though St Bride's (5.30) All Saints Margaret St 6pm, and Chelsea Old Church are also very nice.

Finally St George Hanover Square, and Grosvenor Chapel (both 11am) often get US visitors because of proximity to the embassy.

Just to provide further helpful clarity about the list I posted earlier, in the light of other comments:

-All the churches above are gay-friendly and inclusive of women's ministry, with the exception as mentioned of ASMS. St James Paddington is the other way round with a liberal congregation but perhaps a more conservative Vicar.

- As far as churchmanship most are within the catholic tradition with the exception of St Marylebone, St Brides (sunny side of middle) and Chelse Old Church (MOTR - one of the few remaining churches that still has choral Matins).

- All wear full eucharistic vestments and all use incense, apart from Chelsea and St Brides. St Marylebone and St John use it on high days.

- St Bride, St Marylebone,St George ASMS & St Barts all use traditional language, and St George uses the Prayer Book but in rearranged shape. St James Garlickhythe in the City also does a prayer book with catholic flourishes very nicely.

[ 06. January 2014, 07:04: Message edited by: Liturgylover ]

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Just to clarify my previous post (sorry) which is slightly ambiguous. St Bride's and Chelsea Old Church use Eucharistic vestments, but don't use incense.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... Mind you, I'm an old Puseyite socially, and politically ....

What is an old Puseyite either socially or politically? Gladstonian Liberal? High Tory? ??

quote:
... In the U.S. in the early 20th century, it set liturgical, musical, and even architectural standards to which any other denomination aspiring to respectability had to aspire. ...

Is respectability an heroic Christian virtue or even something to be proud of having encouraged fellow Christians to aspire to?

To return again to the OP and the original subject of the thread, Dalej42, could I suggest that rather than look for bits of the CofE that are more like what you are used to at home, it might be more valuable to visit at least one or two churches that are more 'parochially English'. I can't advise where as I don't know London very well, but there must be plenty of places outside the centre. It may not be the stylish sort of stuff you're used to, but it's more the way ordinary English churchgoers worship Sunday by Sunday.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, that's a good idea. london-based shipmates may be able to advise on non-'celeb' churches worth a visit. It is many years since I lived in London but unless they have changed very much (which they may have done in 20-odd years of course) I'd say somewhere like St Leonard's Streatham , Christ Church Streatham or All Saints Tooting would give you a flavour of 'ordinary' (in this case liberal catholic) parish worship. All interesting butildings, too, in their different ways.

[ 06. January 2014, 10:05: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Speaking for the north of the river I would say that typically even suburban churches tend either to the catholic end (the majority) or open evangelical, with a dearth in the middle - St Michael Highgate is perhaps one example of the latter.

Some examples further out from central London could include St Mark's Regents Park, Hampstead Parish Church, St Augustine's Kilburn (not liberal but a wonderful building). For one outside the box I would recommend St Luke's Holloway home of the post-evangelical.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

South of the river, in the diocese of Southwark, the norm is liberal Catholic. Ritualist, women priests, usually (but not always) gay-friendly. With a tendency to see "mission" as social work rather than evangelisation. Maybe half of all the parishes fit that description, including the Cathedral, though most are small and poor and don't have the resources to but on much of a smells-and-bells show.

The rest are mostly divided between full-on anti-women forward-in-faith - often with Roman liturgy - and "open evangelical" - who would probably seem to most Americans as being like mildly fluffy Methodists. Both of those flavours of church tend to be politically liberal, even left-wing (because South London) but might strike North American Anglicans as backward on gay rights. (In practice both are likely to be "don't ask, don't tell). The FinF types are fanatically anti-women's ordination, the OEs fanatically pro. On the whole.

There are also small but vocal minorities of both conservative and charismatic evangelicals, and old-fashioned prayer-book liberals. Who often combine theological liberalism with political conservatism - these things are not linked the way they are in the USA.

I'd advise any tourist visiting London to go toSouthwark Cathedral. You can combine it with a walk along the South Bank (a must for any visitor) and also Borough Market. Just pop in, even when there is no service. It's inner London's oldest large church, and largest old church - if you don't count Westminster Abbey, which is really a huge private chapel rather than a church, often closed to visitors, and charges an entrance fee (which is why I've never been inside).

Most churches in Inner London are 19th century, and even the older ones usually 17th or 18th. This is very unusual for England where there are thousands of medieval church buildings. I don't know if its true, but I have seen the claim that the parish churches of England are the largest collection of medieval or older buildings anywhere in the world still in use for their original purpose. If you can try to get out of London and see some real old buildings!

Back in town, if you want an interestingly different church, with a liberal slant and a catholic-style ritual, in a stunning building, and if you are willing to go outside the tourist comfort zone to somewhere very downmarket, you could do worse than St Paul's Deptford. 15 minutes from Charing Cross by train, but in a different world.

Or the nearby (but slightly harder to get to by public transport) Church of the Ascension, Blackheath. It's uphill and upmarket from St Paul's, also a lot posher and whiter, but a lovely place. I guess it might be much more like an American Anglican church than most CofE parishes. And most definitely liberal.

(I'm getting a little close to home here because these are churches within walking distance of the one I go to - but we are "open evangelical" and don't fit the OP description at all)

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It may not be the stylish sort of stuff you're used to, but it's more the way ordinary English churchgoers worship Sunday by Sunday.

Absolutely. The point about the C of E used to be that you worshiped at your geographic parish church and not be endlessly dilettante.

Pop up the Piccadilly line to St Thomas Finsbury Park. Vicar is the most out gay priest on general synod, back streets church with ethnically mixed congregation (albeit in a area becoming more yuppified by the year), modern language, women priests, Eastward facing high altar and fog banks of incense. And no choir, of course, being an ordinary back streets church. (I lived within walking distance and attended there some ten years.)

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

No choir, but the priest sings the collect and preface and the congregation sing the Gloria, the Creed (only place I know that does nowadays), Sanctus, Agnus Dei and Lord's Prayer.

Mind you I haven't worshiped there for a few years now.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
No choir, but the priest sings the collect and preface and the congregation sing the Gloria, the Creed (only place I know that does nowadays), Sanctus, Agnus Dei and Lord's Prayer.

Mind you I haven't worshiped there for a few years now.

I often find the lack of a sung Creed most disappointing on my visits to various churches.

There are a few more who still do it: St Marylebone, St Michael Highgate, St George Hanover Square, St James Garlickhythe (all to Merbecke) St Cuthbert's Earls Court and St Albans Holborn (to Martin Shaw) and ASMS and St Mary Bourne St to various settings.

Surely St Barts the Great must be one of the only CofE parishes that sing the Credo in Latin every Sunday?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Exceopt presumably St Silas Kentish Town- if they are in any way CofE apart from for the purposes of pay and rations.

Posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic (# 12722) on :

It occurs to me that perhaps the most liberal-catholic parish north of the river is S. James West Hampstead?

S. Michael Highgate, mentioned above, is in a lovely spot. Liturgically, I'd have thought it more open evangelical and traditional than central, though a central Anglican would be perfectly at home there. I can't imagine the people of Highgate every get their knickers in a twist about any of the hot potato issues: the Guardian is essentially the local rag.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
No choir, but the priest sings the collect and preface and the congregation sing the Gloria, the Creed (only place I know that does nowadays), Sanctus, Agnus Dei and Lord's Prayer.

Mind you I haven't worshiped there for a few years now.

Only place in London, or full stop? In Oxford the Creed's sung by the congregation in Pusey House (occasionally in Latin), St Barnabas, St Alban the Martyr, Ss Mary and John Cowley Road and St Thomas the Martyr off the top of my head.

City of dreaming spires and lost causes...

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
No choir, but the priest sings the collect and preface and the congregation sing the Gloria, the Creed (only place I know that does nowadays), Sanctus, Agnus Dei and Lord's Prayer.

Mind you I haven't worshiped there for a few years now.

No choir, but a small singing group has formed (moi included) which has sung at various holy days and feasts in the last year or so. And we now have two assistant priests, one white female and one black male. (Hello, venbede!)

Dale, you would be most welcome [Smile]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
No choir, ... the congregation sing ... the Creed (only place I know that does nowadays),
Only place in London, or full stop?

I said the only place I know. I make no claim to omniscience.

Posted by Wesley S Chappell (# 4186) on :

I'll second the proposals for St Michael Highgate. One of my favourite London churches; though beware of morning services as they can sometimes be overrun with parents of school age children who are 'on their knees to avoid the fees'. (Anyone who watched the series 'Rev' will know what I'm on about). Evensong is good, particularly the choral one, and the preaching is intelligent, but sadly sparsely attended. (Local pubs good too for after service drinks).

I'd say the congregation is fairly traditional small 'c' upper middle class conservative but tempered with a good dose of North London liberalism. I'd say they are a rather reserved crowd, but that's just innate Englishness, not unfriendliness.

As for clothing, anything goes really. I find in low churches the clothing for men is usually an off the peg suit or aggressively casual slobwear to prove you're not 'dressing up', high and broad churches tend to be more 'country casuals' with tweed jackets and brogues in abundance. You can't go wrong with jacket and tie but make sure you wrap up warm as some London churches are chilly in winter.

Choral evensong at Westminster Abbey is good but can sometimes be a bit touristy - you might find yourself the only person singing in the whole aisle; arrive at least 20 mins early and you might get a place in the choir which is better than sitting in the transepts.

St Paul's has a more congregational feel I find, but the downside is the acoustics aren't as good as Westminster Abbey and I find it hard to hear; I also don't like the circular arrangement of chairs under the dome, which makes the services feel to me like some sort of conference.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

It's worth pointing out too that St Michael's has a fairly complicated array of services in the morning. Two main morning services at 9.45 and 11.15 which each alternate between Morning Prayer and Holy Communion and Baptisms on the 4th Sunday of every month. The choir sings at the 9.45am each week and at 6.30 on first and third Sundays.

Here is the table:
http://stmichaelhighgate.wordpress.com/services-times/

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Unless you arrive very early for Evensong at Westminster Abbey, you will be sitting in the transepts, unable to see either the choir or the officiant.

There's more space in the choir of St Paul's for the congregation, but the overflow sits under the dome, looking into the choir in any case, so you don't feel so shut out.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Unless you arrive very early for Evensong at Westminster Abbey, you will be sitting in the transepts, unable to see either the choir or the officiant.

There's more space in the choir of St Paul's for the congregation, but the overflow sits under the dome, looking into the choir in any case, so you don't feel so shut out.

They have now installed TV screens in the transepts and nave in the Abbey so those who end up there can at least see something. Gone are the days when I could nip over from Whitehall just before 5pm and claim a seat in the Quire - the Abbey now seems solidly packed out every single day.

It's worth pointing out too that on Sundays at St Paul's the congregation sits under the Dome. For the Eucharist that includes the choir which means the acoustics are better, but not for Matins and Evensong when they alone sit in the Quire.

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... Mind you, I'm an old Puseyite socially, and politically ....
What is an old Puseyite either socially or politically? Gladstonian Liberal? High Tory? ??

I wish I could refer you to the website "Anglo-Catholic Socialism", but unfortunately, it disappeared several years ago. Sign of the times, no doubt. It's definitely not high Tory or U.S. Republican. More like joyfully rebellious.

Liturgically, it involves ennobling the poor (among others) with access to the highest standards, rather than condescension. This seems to be as contrary a principle once again as it was 150 years ago.

quote:
Is respectability an heroic Christian virtue or even something to be proud of having encouraged fellow Christians to aspire to?

Not a "heroic virtue", admittedly, but neither is it a vice. One must walk before one can run. As an attribute or a motive, it has its uses, like money. Bishop Paul Moore of New York, for example, was a blue blood preppie through and through, with eminently respectable credentials. These gave him stature when he took controversial (and arguably "heroic Christian") positions that cost him respect in the eyes of many.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... Mind you, I'm an old Puseyite socially, and politically ....
What is an old Puseyite either socially or politically? Gladstonian Liberal? High Tory? ??
I wish I could refer you to the website "Anglo-Catholic Socialism", but unfortunately, it disappeared several years ago. Sign of the times, no doubt. It's definitely not high Tory or U.S. Republican. More like joyfully rebellious.

We are still here. There is no sinister reason when the site is archived - just that Ted, our convenor, became elderly, moved away and didn't keep the site active. The email group is still active.

Posted by Paschal (# 17995) on :

As an Episcopalian you are a member of the worldwide Anglican Communion and so 'one of us'. There would be absolutely no problem with your receiving communion in any church in the Church of England.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

There wouldn't be even if you weren't Anglican. All baptised Christians who are communicants in good standing within their own churches are welcome to receive at Church of England altars.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

We draw the line a bit lower: anyone who is a baptised member of any church and whose conscience allows, is welcome to receive.

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
We draw the line a bit lower: anyone who is a baptised member of any church and whose conscience allows, is welcome to receive.

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

Sorry!

I meant to ask whether that required physical sprinkling?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I think it does, Garasu ... although I'm sure there are Anglican churches which would admit Quakers, Salvationists and any others there might be who don't go in for baptism in the watery sense to communion.

Generally speaking, though, if anyone presented themselves for communion at an Anglican service the clergy would take it on good faith that they were a Trinitarian Christian of some kind and administer the sacrament ... or simply assume that they'd been baptised and confirmed etc.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Baptism requires sprinkling as a minimum. But any Sallies wanting to be baptised are always welcomed in the queue at the font, and later at the rail when they want communion.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Is "sprinkling" being confused with effusion of water here? Effusion, i.e. pouring of water upon the head, is the more common and recognised form of baptising infants or small children. Sprinkling has been in some doubt, as the principle is that the water must flow -- in sprinkling one needs to get enough water on the target to actually wet it, as opposed to simply slinging droplets around the general vicinity.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Yes. I don't remember ever seeing sprinkling used for baptism.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

It does raise an interesting point - have any Salvationists or Quakers been refused Communion in recent years? I can't imagine it happening even if it was against the rules for them to receive.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Sorry, I picked up the "sprinkling" from the earlier post, and assumed it was meant as a light-hearted reference to effusion - which is our practice - rather than immersion.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Yes. I don't remember ever seeing sprinkling used for baptism.

Sprinkling was used by some Methodists (possibly still is), whilst other Methodist ministers baptised by effusion. I was told as a teenager by our vicar - a CofE priest who was serving in TEC - that Anglicans would not automatically recognise Methodist baptisms, since it was necessary to determine whether such had been done by effusion (valid) or by sprinkling (possibly invalid). I would think that must have been a position within the CofE (whether official or not, I don't know) -- I would be surprised if the US Episcopal Church would have been officially so scrupulous, even though Anglicans to my knowledge never baptism with sprinkling (the Methodists who do so use a small aspergillium for the purpose).

For clarification, this was more than 40 years ago.

Here endeth the tangent (I hope).

Posted by Gottschalk (# 13175) on :

Dropped in a lovely church for the parish's only sunday service- was warmly welcomed.

The rest can be concatenated thus:
Lady Vicar
NRSV
CW, including Pseudo-Hippolytus, notwithstanding which
Communion was reverently celebrated
Hymns nicely sung and organ top-notch
But
Most of the church was empty
The congregation, grey and bald, but for a lady, three lassies and yours truly, sat in the chancel.

Lady Vicar's sermon was good, and even though she celebrated CW, her sermon was on the merits of the BCP 1922 Lectionary.

Overall, mixed bag, more on the sad side. I'm against WO and CW. But the community was clearly struggling to stay alive and that was touching, and the lady vicar was trying her best.

[ 12. February 2014, 15:26: Message edited by: Gottschalk ]

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