Ship of Fools: 3 questions of about pope Francis

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Vestments are the topic of another thread,suffice to say that for Catholics they are just part of the worship,giving a sense of the past as well as a recognition via the colours of the ecclesiastical season of the year.Since his election pope Francis has worn simple vestments,even on the great feastdays.The Vatican must contain a large collection of fine vestments.It was noticeable at the Christmas Mass in St Peter's the concelebrating cardinals were wearing finer vestments than the pope.In the past for the great feastdays when the pope gives the blessing Urbi et Orbi from the loggia above St Peter's he would still be wearing Mass vestments.Francis removes his vestments and appears simply in the papal soutane.Again in the past the pope would wear on important occasions a special stole - the essential mark of a priest.Francis has only worn this stole on the day of his election.I noticed,however,that he put on a very simple red stole for the actual blessing.Why is red the colour for some papal
occasions when it is not the colour of the day ?

In the past at solemn Masses the celebrant would sing/chant/intone certain parts of the Mass e.g. Sursum corda etc (Lift up your hearts)Nowadays if the celebrant can't really sing/chant they'll just
say it.This seems to be the case with Francis.I noticed at the Christmas Mass that one of the cardinals intoned Sursum corda,etc and that even during the communal singing of Pater noster,the pope kept his mouth shut. Does one know if he has something particular against singing in the liturgy or is it just that he feels he would not be good at it and so doesn't do it ?

The last two popes on great occasions have tried to use a number of languages when speaking to the faithful.Francis uses only Italian which ,of course he speaks fluently and easily with some Hispanic cadences and features -e.g. he says 'casa' (house) with a short a and a double ss sound like Italian 'cassa' (cash desk).His Spanish language background shows more in his Latin when he pronounces 'Requiem' as' rekee em'
and when he follows a common Hispanic custom of only lightly or not at all pronouncing 's' e.g. Dominu' vobi'cum and
Benedictu' fructu' ventri' tui' (some common Latin prayers) At the only General Audience I have watched he spoke exclusively in Italian apart from his address to Spanish speaking pilgrims. I know he wishes to emphasize his role as Bishop of Rome but does he speak any other languages ?

Posted by JeffTL (# 16722) on :

On the first question, I presume that the Holy Father doesn't feel right wearing mass vestments outside of mass. A white cassock makes it obvious enough that he is the pope.

On the second, he's missing a good part of one of his lungs from a health issue early in his life. He probably gets short of breath from singing, and speaks instead for reasons of comfort and not causing a scene.

This article answers your third question. Francis is not the polyglot that his immediate two predecessors were - and JPII, especially, served a long time and shaped most living people's view of the papacy significantly. So his choice seems to be to deliver his addresses in the language of his ancestors and his diocese, to the exclusion even of Spanish. Moreover, he goes off script a lot, and he would probably only be competent to do that in Italian or Spanish.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

One of my clerical friends informs me that these days the ambitious seminarian will make sure that they have English, Spanish, and Italian, while 40-50 years ago it was French, German, and Italian. In those days much theological scholarship took place in German and biblical and liturgical work in French.

J2P2, like most educated Poles, knew that his language was spoken by very few non-Poles, and that he needed to be operational in the scholarly languages of the west as well as (for practical reasons) Russian. B16, as a scholarly Germans, knew that he had to have French and English under his belt.

My interlocutor, one of the few Latin-speakers I know, regretted that his chosen language was no longer the default. As a Latin camp counsellor, he tells me that the best Latinists among his campers are Jewish and female, so his dream of helping nurture a new generation of canonists is fading. I tried to comfort him by picturing Willow Rosenberg at the Holy Rota.

As Pope Frank is from Buenos Aires, he will have no trouble understanding Italian, as porteño Spanish is seriously interlaced with Italianisms in every sentence and in pronunciation.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

1) It is certainly true that Pope Francis prefers simple vestments. I am not familiar with the sight of a Pontiff imparting a blessing--Urbi et Orbi or otherwise--from the balcony at St. Peter's, while wearing Mass vestments. In my lifetime, I have always seen the Holy Father (Paul, JP1, JP2, Benedict, Francis) do so in his regular white cassock. On solemn occasions he would wear the papal mozetta and stole, as he does when he is newly eelected, but over the regular white cassock. I just did an extensive google search and was able to find one picture of Benedict from Easter, 2010, dressed in Mass vestments on the balcony, and I don't know why, but all of the others of him and the other pontiffs are as I describe above. The stole is largely red in color, but I don't think that it was ever intended to be liturgical red, but papal red, which can be used at any time, much like the red papal mozetta.

2) The Holy Father is tone deaf. He has always avoided singing because of this. When he was a cardinal, he once said, only half in jest, that his not singing is an act of mercy for the congregation.

3) I believe that he speaks only Spanish and Italian fluently. (Even his Italian is not as good as his Spanish, according to native speakers.) I have also heard that he knows a little English and German from when he studiedin Europe. However, it seems fair to say that he is not quite the polyglot that his two predecessors were.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Msny thanks for the information.I must try to find out more about papal red.
I don't mind at all about the vestments or lack of them,but I did think that there was something lscking in the small red stole for the solemn occasion.
I looked at different recordings of 'Urbi et Orbi'
In 1938 Pius XI was carried in/on the sedia gestatoria onto the balcony.Fortunately the bearers stopped before he was projected onto the piazza and it was somewhat comic to see him being removed from the loggia backwards on the chair.
Recordings of Pius XII,JohnXXIII,Paul VI and JP2 show them still wearing Mass vestments for Urbi et Orbi which is afterall the conclusion of the Mass 1938,1939,1962,1967,1990 and 2004 with JP2 struggling to speak.
Incidentally, as you will see from 1962, John XXIII sent greetings in 15 languages.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Msny thanks for the information.I must try to find out more about papal red.
I don't mind at all about the vestments or lack of them,but I did think that there was something lscking in the small red stole for the solemn occasion.
I looked at different recordings of 'Urbi et Orbi'
In 1938 Pius XI was carried in/on the sedia gestatoria onto the balcony.Fortunately the bearers stopped before he was projected onto the piazza and it was somewhat comic to see him being removed from the loggia backwards on the chair.
Recordings of Pius XII,JohnXXIII,Paul VI and JP2 show them still wearing Mass vestments for Urbi et Orbi which is afterall the conclusion of the Mass 1938,1939,1962,1967,1990 and 2004 with JP2 struggling to speak.
Incidentally, as you will see from 1962, John XXIII sent greetings in 15 languages.

It will be interesting when there is a Pope of a generation of priests who has hardly ever said Mass in Latin.

I also find it interesting that Francis' English is not very good. I would have thought it would be thought of as a prerequisite for the Papacy to be fluent in English. I guess that is my American Imperialist bias showing!

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I also find it interesting that Francis' English is not very good. I would have thought it would be thought of as a prerequisite for the Papacy to be fluent in English. I guess that is my American Imperialist bias showing!

It is true that after Italian, English is the next most frequently spoken on a day-to-day basis in the Vatican. It has replaced French as a sort of international diplomatic language. Had Pope Francis been a full-time member of the curia just before he had been elected Pope, such as Benedict XVI had been, then his English would almost certainly have been much better. But coming from being an Ordinary from outside Europe, it is probably not very surprising.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

3) I believe that he speaks only Spanish and Italian fluently. (Even his Italian is not as good as his Spanish, according to native speakers.)

His parents were Italian and he's spoken it since childhood. No doubt with a huge Argentinian accent.

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