Ship of Fools: BCP Gloria in Lent

Thread: BCP Gloria in Lent Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

Last Sunday I took the 8 am BCP Communion for a local vicar who was on holiday. When I got to the end of the service I was taken by surprise by the Gloria, but kept it in as the BCP doesn't have many seasonal variations, and Cranmer included it where it is to model the disciples singing a hymn at the end of the Last Supper. However, the congregation were slow to join in, which left me wondering if the vicar normally omitted it in Lent, as you would in CW.

Now I'm no liturgical expert, but many posters here are. Could any of you tell me what the procedure is? Was I right or not?

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Last Sunday I took the 8 am BCP Communion for a local vicar who was on holiday. When I got to the end of the service I was taken by surprise by the Gloria, but kept it in as the BCP doesn't have many seasonal variations, and Cranmer included it where it is to model the disciples singing a hymn at the end of the Last Supper. However, the congregation were slow to join in, which left me wondering if the vicar normally omitted it in Lent, as you would in CW.

Now I'm no liturgical expert, but many posters here are. Could any of you tell me what the procedure is? Was I right or not?

Nothing is defined in the rubrics of the BCP Communion service about the Gloria (in Excelsis Deo) and I suppose the "purists" would include the Gloria on all occasions, all the year round, using BCP. That said, I am at a lost to know of a church where the Gloria is said in Lent nor in Advent, for that matter.

Other sources state that the Gloria is added outside Advent and Lent and on weekday feasts (or similar wording). Exceptions are made on feastdays in penitential seasons when the Gloria is used regardless.

Whether you are right or not, from the foregoing, on the one hand yes and on the other hand no.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Last Sunday I took the 8 am BCP Communion for a local vicar who was on holiday. When I got to the end of the service I was taken by surprise by the Gloria, but kept it in as the BCP doesn't have many seasonal variations, and Cranmer included it where it is to model the disciples singing a hymn at the end of the Last Supper. However, the congregation were slow to join in, which left me wondering if the vicar normally omitted it in Lent, as you would in CW.

Now I'm no liturgical expert, but many posters here are. Could any of you tell me what the procedure is? Was I right or not?
Nothing is defined in the rubrics of the BCP Communion service about the Gloria (in Excelsis Deo) and I suppose the "purists" would include the Gloria on all occasions, all the year round, using BCP. That said, I am at a loss to know of a church where the Gloria is said in Lent nor in Advent, for that matter.

Other sources state that the Gloria is added on Sundays, outside Advent and Lent and on weekday feasts (or similar wording). Exceptions are made on feastdays in penitential seasons when the Gloria is used regardless of the season.

Whether you are right or not, from the foregoing, on the one hand yes and on the other hand no.

I had one or two typos to correct above, which I have now done. I apologise for that.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The BCP Communion service as commonly celbrated is Order Two in Common Worship. Note 29 on page 335 of the Common Worship main volume says that "If the Gloria is not to be used on every occasion, it is appropriately omitted on Sundays in Advent and Lent..."

If you are following the 1662 BCP itself, you would include the collect for the Queen and the exhortations.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If you are following the 1662 BCP itself, you would include the collect for the Queen and the exhortations.

Well, that goes without saying.....

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

In the Anglican Church of Canada the Gloria is omitted and replaced by the Trisagion "Holy God , Holy & almighty, Holy immortal one,have mercy upon us" repeated 3 times. during the Lenten season

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Well, that's a bit of an overstatement: replacing the Kyrie and Gloria with the Trisagion in Lent is one option given by the rubrics of one of the two service books of the Anglican Church of Canada. I can't say it's an option I've seen too many celebrants avail themselves of.

[ 29. March 2014, 03:53: Message edited by: LQ ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I suppose the "purists" would include the Gloria on all occasions, all the year round, using BCP.

I once went to an evangelical church which did BCP HC on Good Friday morning and included the gloria at the end.

Odd, because tat the preceding sung MP they substituted the benedicite for the Te Deum.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Well, that's a bit of an overstatement: replacing the Kyrie and Gloria with the Trisagion in Lent is one option given by the rubrics of one of the two service books of the Anglican Church of Canada. I can't say it's an option I've seen too many celebrants avail themselves of.

Is the Gloria normally used in Lent in Canada, then, or do you mean it is typically the Kyrie followed by the Collect?

As an aside, I've really got to give credit to TEC and the Anglicans in Canada, who have a nicely streamlined entrance rite. In Lutheranism, the entrance rite can be quite prolonged. We do retain the confession at the start, but we don't have quick options, as the Catholics do.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

It is typically just the Kyrie, but I have been to a few places where the Trisagion was used. And then too there are more modern places that treat the Kyrie and Gloria as alternatives, using the former in purple seasons and the latter at other times.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
And then too there are more modern places that treat the Kyrie and Gloria as alternatives, using the former in purple seasons and the latter at other times.

This is virtually obligatory in most CoE places.

Posted by sinbosun (# 16970) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
In the Anglican Church of Canada the Gloria is omitted and replaced by the Trisagion "Holy God , Holy & almighty, Holy immortal one,have mercy upon us" repeated 3 times. during the Lenten season

Well not really. You have the option to use Kyrie or Trisagion. I use the Kyrie in Lent and Trisagion during Holy Week.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
And then too there are more modern places that treat the Kyrie and Gloria as alternatives, using the former in purple seasons and the latter at other times.
This is virtually obligatory in most CoE places.

It used to go further - the agnus Dei, like the kyrie, is (sort of) repeated in the gloria so some parishes used to have either)kyries and agnus Dei

or) Gloria

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The Kyrie and Gloria in Excelsis were alternatives in Series 3. In the ASB and Common Worship, they may both be used, although neither is mandatory.

IMHO, they are both part of the Western mass and I'd like them both included, even if the Kyrie is said as part of the penitential rite.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

It's been 20 years since I regularly attended BCP 8 o'clock Communion, but I can't recall missing out the Gloria in Lent.

(I do remember being a tad annoyed at one priest who always forgot to use the Proper Preface for the Sunday after Ascension. [Disappointed]

)

Posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus (# 2515) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If you are following the 1662 BCP itself, you would include the collect for the Queen and the exhortations.
Well, that goes without saying.....

And the sermon will be read from one of the Books of Homilies. Should only take about an hour.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
It's been 20 years since I regularly attended BCP 8 o'clock Communion, but I can't recall missing out the Gloria in Lent.

(I do remember being a tad annoyed at one priest who always forgot to use the Proper Preface for the Sunday after Ascension. )

At a BCP 8 o'clock communion, you probably wouldn't have had the Gloria omitted.

As for the proper preface you mention, thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I had taken to paper clipping the pages in the altar book to prevent mishaps. It's rather ironic when on the one hand you have a pastor who complains about everything being the same all the time, and on the other hand that pastor misses every single opportunity to change things up.

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

I was taught to omit the Gloria during Lent and Advent when using the BCP. The Prayer Book acknowledges the season of Lent to the extent that it expects the Collect for Ash Wednesday and the Litany to be said throughout the season so I don't think that it is a rebuke to the memory of Blessed Thomas Cranmer to drop the Gloria.

Of course, the acknowledged expert among shipmates is a chap called Gordon Cheng. Whatever happened to him? [Biased]

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

We don't omit the Gloria in Lent. We have two collects and they get the full 10 commandments on the first Sunday of Lent rather than the summary of the law. I have suggested that I read on of the homilies. They think I'm joking....

I'm coming around to BCP. I found the language hard going at first when I first started presiding but now I like the fact it doesn't change and eastward facing means that me and God get to talk to each other first thing on a Sunday whilst the congregation all hide on the back pew.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Eastward facing? In a BCP service? Anathema!

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

Par for the course in a lot of rural churches. Why would we bother with a nave altar?

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

The BCP wants you to stand sideways-on.

As our vicar used to before we moved to Series 3.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

North position is technically correct, of course, but it's tricky to accomplish unless the altar has been rotated through 90 degrees (as it would have been after the Reformation).

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sinbosun:

quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
In the Anglican Church of Canada the Gloria is omitted and replaced by the Trisagion "Holy God , Holy & almighty, Holy immortal one,have mercy upon us" repeated 3 times. during the Lenten season
Well not really. You have the option to use Kyrie or Trisagion. I use the Kyrie in Lent and Trisagion during Holy Week.

Welcome aboard, by the way ...

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Eastward facing? In a BCP service? Anathema!

Well as someone who is new to all of this I do find it odd that my 8am congregation like the long walk up to the high altar whereas when the prayer book services were first introduced the minister would have presided at a table in the nave.

It would be interesting to find out where the layers of local custom and practice came from and how recent our current practice is.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I doubt that Cranmer had any interest in things being different during Lent.

If you look at his original lectionary, there were no special readings or psalms for Christmas Day.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

I had an interesting one this week, CinW 1984 BCP midweek communion, with Gloria and Creed. Gloria felt very odd. I can see an argument for not omitting it on Sundays in Lent as it isn't suggested, but both creed and gloria have ( On Sundays and festivals ) after them, so why use them on any weekday let alone in Lent?

Carys

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

On a weekday we never have gloria nor creed. What's this all about?

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On a weekday we never have gloria nor creed. What's this all about?

That was not specified in the 1662 BCP. It was added in the 1928 proposed version. If you do a "by the book" BCP Holy Communion, it should always include Creed and Gloria.

(Of course, the 1984 CiW BCP is an entirely different animal.)

[ 05. April 2014, 20:53: Message edited by: Basilica ]

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
North position is technically correct, of course, but it's tricky to accomplish unless the altar has been rotated through 90 degrees (as it would have been after the Reformation).

I think that we must have missed the Reformation where the position of our altar is concerned, which is quite ironic because a large proportion of the PCC appeared, for example, to regard sanctuary bells as a sinister means for Papists to communicate with the Spanish Armada. In any event if I'd tried to celebrate from the Ping-Pong position I would have ended up in the floral display and, being a martyr to hay fever, this would not have been good.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On a weekday we never have gloria nor creed. What's this all about?

Hoping that by "weekday" you mean "feria"--feasts ought to have Gloria, and feasts of a certain rank the Creed as well.

Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :

Archbishop Cranmer sometimes shows in his 1549 lectionary a serious attention to the meaning of the feasts in the liturgical year. Epiphany, which is more ancient than Christmas and at least as high a feast as the Nativity in both East and West, in the lessons the Archbishop appoints, displays the full complexity its varied themes . Not only does he recollect the the visit of the Magi in the Gospel of the day, but Archbishop Cranmer also provides Luke's account of the Lord's Baptism and John's narration of the wedding at Cana. The antiphon for the Magnificat on the Epiphany emphasizes these three aspects of the feast. Archbishop Cranmer also provides special Office readings involving the Epiphany themes for January 7.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On a weekday we never have gloria nor creed. What's this all about?
Hoping that by "weekday" you mean "feria"--feasts ought to have Gloria, and feasts of a certain rank the Creed as well.

Yes, feria, of course. Nobody seems to know that 'feria' means any more.

At age 62 I begin to feel quite elderly.

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