Ship of Fools: Flags

Thread: Flags Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

I don't know whether there has been a thread on this before.

In the U.S., many churches have U.S. flags in their worship spaces, typically off to one side of the chancel. I have sometimes run across discussions about this, questioning its propriety. I don't know whether this practice is found in other countries.

So: Is this found in other countries, and do you regard it as good, bad or neutral?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Churches- Anglican churches at least- in England & Wales sometimes have a Union Jack by a war memorial tablet: this would not IME be very common but nor would it be surprising. Cathedrals and some major historic town parish churches may have the former colours of the local regiment laid up there for safe keeping. But otherwise, no, the national flag is not a standard part of church furnishing here. That said, in the C18 and C19 it was quite common for CofE chuches to display the Royal Arms, but that related AIUI to the Royal Supremacy over the church.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

It would be a big no-no in the Netherlands.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I thought that those churches which displayed the Royal arms either did so because they had been in receipt of funds from Queen Anne's Bounty or because a Chancel Liability existed with the Crown or a (usually long-dead) senior member of the royal family.

Churches of the Church of England may fly flags from their tower flag pole (if they have one) and what these should be is laid down in a schedule.

Tomorrow being the Nativity of the BVM, for example, the cross of St George should be flown.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Ah, didn't know that about the Arms- thanks. I believe the 'default' flag for a CofE church to fly is the cross of St George with the diocesan arms in the canton, isn't it? Here in Wales we fly, if anything, the CinW flag. But not really seen insde the Church. I am trying to think whether or not I have ever seen a Red Dragon in a Welsh church or chapel. I don't think I have but I wouldn't swear to it. It would not be usual, anyway.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Yes, flags are common. Ours sits in the nave. We move it into the chancel when we have a funeral for a veteran. I'm not into God and Country sort of things but not a battle I'm willing to fight.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

Nope. No flags where I worship and glad of it.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

No, NO, NO! A thousand times, NO.

Keep the battle pennants, the war flags, the national flags out of the worship space. Repeat after me: "Ethnophyletism is a heresy, a very bad heresy."

The Christian Ensign is the Cross, adorned with the suffering body of the Savior. It is the sign accompanied by lights and by incense. It is the ensign before which we bow our heads when it passes by in procession.

If one must have banners, then do, depicting: the Holy City, the Virgin Mother, the title saint of the parish, a Corpus Christi banner, the implements of the crucifixion, most anything that guides the mind back to the cross.

Anything else is a compromise with the civil religion. I realize that it may take decades before diligent priest and wardens can manage to extirpate an American flag from the church.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

The vast number of civic or national memorials at churches is overwhelming, too. I went to St.Paul's in London for the first time last month. You could hardly dram one more national commemoration in.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I realize that it may take decades before diligent priest and wardens can manage to extirpate an American flag from the church.

Our TEC shack has a few flags - there's a US flag, one that appears to be the lion rampant of the royal arms of the kings of Scots, and I think the Union Jack (although I haven't looked closely enough to see whether it's the current version or the 1776-era version.) I've never seen them moved, and I've never seen any attention paid to them, even on one of the nationalistic holidays.

The only vaguely flag-like thing that I have ever seen "in use" is the parish banner, which carries the name of our church, the cross, and the insignia of the Episcopal Church, and comes out in procession sometimes.

I'd guess that the Boy Scout troop at the church might get the US flag out when they meet.

This thread is rather inspiring me to go and ask the priest why the flags are there, though.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

Usually the only flags you'll see in a church here are the Union flag and then the Newfoundland flag (at least one of the three flags of Newfoundland), or the Vatican flag.

Not in the chancel or the sanctuary but I know the cathedral in town has a Union flag and then the St George's up hanging over the altar rail.

Our Basilica has the Vatican Flag and a Newfoundland flag.

My parish changes it. Could be the Union, could be Newfoundland, sometime the Irish flag and then others the Vatican.

When I travelled to Florida however long ago that was, there were American flags er'rywhere and I wasn't surprised to see five or six in various places at the Shrine of Mary, Queen of the Universe where I went to Mass.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Keep the battle pennants, the war flags, the national flags out of the worship space. Repeat after me: "Ethnophyletism is a heresy, a very bad heresy."

Amen.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

God hates flags.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

Quotes file!

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Local regimental flags flew in the chancel in the Anglican Church when I was a child. On a funerary visit recently, I noted that they had been framed and moved to the church walls with the other memorials. The Regiments were disbanded in the 1968 reformation of the Forces.

Otherwise the only time I see flags of any sort in Church (there are some in the narthex) is when there is a Church parade. The flags are removed after the Parade.

Posted by pomdownunder (# 16666) on :

Just as a counterexample, I know of several charismatic evangelical churches in the UK (including the one in Surrey that I was a member of) where flags of many different nations are displayed in what space they meet in (in our case, a rented conference venue)
These are generally to symbolise one or both of:
- a concern for an interest in reaching out to the nations of the world as per the great commission (especially flags for nations where that church has an active involvement of some kind)
- the multicultural make up of the local church, with flags for the nations represented among the members

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Bad. Very bad. OK on an OHP for Remembrance but that's it.

Banners only here.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

The Boys' and Girls' Brigades customarily parade their flags in and out of church at Parade Services, with the congregation standing. I once sat at such a service with a French Mennonite, who refused to stand - that caused eyebrows to be raised.

In my last church, the BB and GB companies closed down. One person wanted to have the now-disused flags suspended from the ceiling in their memory, and threatened to leave the church if they weren't. Delicate negotiation was required!

[ 08. September 2014, 08:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

P.S. Has anyone ever come across "the Christian flag" being displayed in church?

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
P.S. Has anyone ever come across "the Christian flag" being displayed in church?

Dear God, gules on azure? I think not.

Oh, and the first example of its use in the link is from 'Focus on the Family' so I definitely think not...

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I tend to agree ... nevertheless, has anyone ever come across it?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

OK: I've consulted our parish oracle on flags this is the gen.

Churches of the Church of England should, by default, if they raise a flag have the Cross of St George which has in the first quadrant the arms of the diocese; the diocesan arms are not to be adorned with a mitre or any other device. The diocesan arms should be in the correct position on both sides of the flag - in other words they should be against the jack when the flag is raised.

If a church doesn't have a flag with the diocesan arms it may fly the cross of St George alone.

On those days designated for the flying of the union flag from government buildings churches should either fly a union flag or nothing. A full list is available from the DCMS but broadly: birthdays of the sovereign, her husband, children, the wife of the heir apparent and heir presumptive; accession day, coronation day, Remembrance Sunday.

Flags should not be flown at half-mast (not even on Remembrance Sunday) unless a directive has been issued for national mourning from the office of the Earl Marshal.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pomdownunder:
Just as a counterexample, I know of several charismatic evangelical churches in the UK (including the one in Surrey that I was a member of) where flags of many different nations are displayed in what space they meet in (in our case, a rented conference venue)
These are generally to symbolise one or both of:
- a concern for an interest in reaching out to the nations of the world as per the great commission (especially flags for nations where that church has an active involvement of some kind)
- the multicultural make up of the local church, with flags for the nations represented among the members

Yes, these are the reasons flags are present within my NFI church, often they are donated by members. There were 23 nationalities at a service head count last year and these are reflected in the number of flags.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

The Flag Institute (a charity) has a useful poster offering advice on flag flying days for churches, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available on its website.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

The use of flags doesn't always intend any kind of nationalism, but it is a bit naive to suppose that they won't be taken that way. See for example the comment under 'distractions' on this mystery worshipper report.

Having one but not another may be a simple oversight, but one cannot help but think there may be political connotations.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

A US flag and the "Christian" flag are often seen flanking the chancel in US Protestant churches. I've seen this across the denominational spectrum.
I seem to recall that there was a "pledge" to the Christian flag too, used in Sunday School, but not sure how widespread that was.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I've never seen a 'christian' flag in the UK and it would not be legal for it to be flown from a CofE flag staff.

Which is just as well, seeing how prominently it features in promotional material to do with Focus on the Family, that splendid institution which promotes bigotry and hatred across an interdenominational group of affiliates and which has a worryingly large war-chest to do it with - more than $90 million at the last count.

Frankly, I'd fight tooth and nail not to have anything in any church I attended which linked me in any way to such an organisation.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

We had a bit of a debate about it in a previous parish I belonged to. The solution was to mount the U.S. flag on one end of the front of the west-end choir loft, with the Episcopal Church flag on the other end of the loft. (I'm sure the Flag Code was consulted and followed.)

This arrangement kept the flag present but not visible to those looking toward the sanctuary. So it no longer competed with the altar, pulpit, east-end Christus Rex, etc.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

The only 'flag' we have at our place is on a tiny beer fridge which lives in the Vestry (it is a gift, and is intended to hold the weekly Art Group's milk.....).

It is decorated in Union Jack style, and I have told enquirers that it is, in fact, a new Tabernacle for the High Altar..... [Devil]

Ian J.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I thought that those churches which displayed the Royal arms either did so because they had been in receipt of funds from Queen Anne's Bounty or because a Chancel Liability existed with the Crown or a (usually long-dead) senior member of the royal family.

No - there was a statute in 1660 requiring all churches to have them.

They were often in place of the rood or next to the 10 commandments, creed and lord's prayer which acted s a reredos.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Delicate negotiation was required!

Always take a threat of that nature seriously - always say "Go on, then"

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

We don't have any flags in the building. I would put my foot down, strongly, on any suggestion to introduce one anywhere except in the narthex. Placing a national flag inside the sanctuary is idolatrous.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

When I first saw this thread title, I thought it was about the horrors described in this thread. I was quite relieved to see otherwise!
Regarding the Christian Flag, as mentioned a few times so far, this is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject. It appears it was a North American development, with it's use outside that region mainly in areas that were the focus of mission work in the 20th Century.

Posted by Roselyn (# 17859) on :

Mainstream churches here in the colonies used to be chockers with them, most quietly removed over the years by sneaky, perceptive clergy, elders etc.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
God hates flags.

quote:
to which W Hyatt responded:
Quotes file!

Yeah, it's quite good. But in the UK it's quite old. One of Jamie Oliver's restaurant chains is called Union Jacks, and that's the tagline on some of their stuff - or used to be, they've probably updated and have something new by now. Pic

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

My pad has, in the mezzanine gallery, three regimental flags from some war or other. The tradition is that they hang until, like all of us, they return to dust. Bloody ugly, actually, but then I guess we are after we've hanged for a while, metaphorically or, worse, literally.

There used to be four but my predecessor-bar-one, a pacifist, started to remove one. It's twenty or more years ago now. He still has not been forgiven by ex servicemen and women.

A sister cathedral across the island, which has badged itself as a "Centre for Peace and Reconciliation" has worked outstandingly hard at the question of war memorials and flags where they have been a part of a colonialist mentality of oppressing the "pre-contact" people, the local Māori. They were, after much consultation, liturgically removed from centre stage, as it were, of the cathedral's sacred space, and pprocessed and liturgically re-hung in a side chapel(ish). They also initiated and consecrated a peace altar frontal to convey a different message to future generations.

They and their dean are amazing, whose sandals I am not worthy etc. Somewhere in their action is a message relevant to flags. Ultimately I would not have any symbol of temporal power in the scared places of God, but sometimes our history must be negotiated.

It's tricky.

PS ... that circumflex on "Māori" should be a macron. It's never done that before. May no Māori reader take offence.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
A US flag and the "Christian" flag are often seen flanking the chancel in US Protestant churches. I've seen this across the denominational spectrum.
I seem to recall that there was a "pledge" to the Christian flag too, used in Sunday School, but not sure how widespread that was.

The church I grew up in (Disciples of Christ, so not necessarily the type of church you'd stereotype as having a Christian flag) had a US flag and one of these on opposite sides of the chancel, and, once a year (I forget which Sunday—Memorial Day, maybe?), the congregation would recite both pledges of allegiance, stumbling through the unfamiliar one.*

The Basilica of the National Shrine has a giant US flag hanging on the belltower right now, as well as the usual one inside (across the chancel from the Vatican flag), and has for the past few weeks—I suspect it was put up for freshman orientation and nobody's yet bothered to take it down. TBH, while I understand that flags are popular on about everything in this town and that it might be the National Shrine, it still looks a bit tacky. Then again, I don't like it when they tart up the building for graduation either, so what do I know?

*ETA: we all grew up saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag every day at school and before every civic function, so of course everyone knew that one by heart!

[ 09. September 2014, 02:38: Message edited by: Ariston ]

Posted by The Man with a Stick (# 12664) on :

I am reminded of an old story in the Diocese of Southwark (I think). An Anglo-Catholic parish petitioned for a Faculty for a new flag pole. When the Faculty came back (as is customary) it included conditions as to the flags to be flown. It read along the lines of "only the Flag of St George with Diocesan Arms or another approved national flag".

The (naughty) Vicar felt this gave him sufficient scope to fly the Vatican Flag!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I do (I think) get the point of US churches having the flag there, but then I'm reasonably comfortable with civic religion. Wouldn't work here because the flag doesn't have anything like the cultural significance that it seems to have in the States- all that pledging allegiance stuff seems at best tweely odd and at worst rather sinister to us. But different strokes, and all that.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

... of course, when the natural order is followed during the 6 Nations then sometimes angels drape the Baner Cymru (Welsh flag) over the gallery near the organ loft [Snigger]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

That goes without saying! But then that's the flag of Heaven, isn't it?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Many years ago my wife was a teacher in a missionary children's school in Senegal. It was run by an American missionary society and the majority of teachers and students were American. There was, however, a small "British section".

Every morning, the whole school - including local Senegalese staff - had to pledge allegiance to the American flag. The Brits objected, saying that (a) neither they nor the local staff were American; (b) pledging allegiance wasn't part of their school culture; (c) if allegiance was to be pledged it ought to be to the Senegalese flag; (d) it was akin to idolatry as a Christian's allegiance is to God alone.

Most of the Americans simply couldn't understand that there was any problem, as the Pledge is so ingrained in US culture. At least the Brits (but not the Senegalese) were then let off from having to participate.

(This isn't an anti-American rant, by the way; I am sure there are aspects of British culture that Americans find bizarre!)

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I'm so glad someone on here realises that - thanks Albertus. [Biased]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

[Big Grin]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm so glad someone on here realises that - thanks Albertus.

The Scots might not agree, especially in the current climate.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
... Every morning, the whole school - including local Senegalese staff - had to pledge allegiance to the American flag. The Brits objected, saying that (a) neither they nor the local staff were American; (b) pledging allegiance wasn't part of their school culture; (c) if allegiance was to be pledged it ought to be to the Senegalese flag; (d) it was akin to idolatry as a Christian's allegiance is to God alone.

Most of the Americans simply couldn't understand that there was any problem, as the Pledge is so ingrained in US culture. At least the Brits (but not the Senegalese) were then let off from having to participate. ...

That's really weird. It's disturbing that anyone would let missionaries go overseas on their behalf who were so insensitive to foreign cultures not to see that that is expecting the Senegalese to be daily treasonous in their own country.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Indeed, although (to be fair) this was back in 1978. This particular group (which I will not name) were particularly insensitive to culture and found it hard to separate "Christianity" from "the way our country does things". Admittedly we all do that at times, probably more than we might realise!

On a similar theme, I flatly refuse to sing, "I vow to thee, my country". The tune - not written for singing - has too great a range anyway.

[ 09. September 2014, 15:16: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Bit like this, was it?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Given the chance, I'd fly the red flag from the building

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On a similar theme, I flatly refuse to sing, "I vow to thee, my country". The tune - not written for singing - has too great a range anyway.

Jim Cotter wrote alternative words to it.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Given the chance, I'd fly the red flag from the building

Fr. Conrad Noel had a red flag in the sanctuary at Thaxted.

[ 09. September 2014, 17:35: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... of course, when the natural order is followed during the 6 Nations then sometimes angels drape the Baner Cymru (Welsh flag) over the gallery near the organ loft

Of course the One True Welsh flag is the Cross of St.David.......
[Two face]

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Ah, didn't know that about the Arms- thanks. I believe the 'default' flag for a CofE church to fly is the cross of St George with the diocesan arms in the canton, isn't it? Here in Wales we fly, if anything, the CinW flag. But not really seen insde the Church. I am trying to think whether or not I have ever seen a Red Dragon in a Welsh church or chapel. I don't think I have but I wouldn't swear to it. It would not be usual, anyway.

I remember seeing that flag during the Falklands War
It has a vague similarity to the Argentinian flag. I don't *think* anyone was making a point then but one never knows does one?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Bit like this, was it?

It's more true than you might think! [Cool]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Given the chance, I'd fly the red flag from the building
Fr. Conrad Noel had a red flag in the sanctuary at Thaxted.

And an Irish Tricolour somewhere in the Church, which c1920 was certainly making a statement.

[ 09. September 2014, 19:51: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I do (I think) get the point of US churches having the flag there, but then I'm reasonably comfortable with civic religion. Wouldn't work here because the flag doesn't have anything like the cultural significance that it seems to have in the States- all that pledging allegiance stuff seems at best tweely odd and at worst rather sinister to us. But different strokes, and all that.

It seems at best odd and at worst rather sinister to some of us here in the US, as well. I think we have a particular danger of nation-olatry here in the US--and some religious groups actually make claims of the US being specially blessed by God above other nations. [Eek!]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, there's a whole other thread that could be started on that- goes back to the Puritan city-on-the-hill thing, I suppose. Mind you, there were and to my surprise still are people who had a version of it here- the British Israelites.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
the British Israelites.

Good Lord. [Eek!]

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
the British Israelites.
Good Lord.

I'd heard of them - didn't realise they were still active.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I see, getting us closer to the OP again, that they offer a lapel badge of crossed Union Jack and Stars and Stripes with the motto 'We are Israel'.
Patently barking.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

We don't have any flags.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

I am surprised this has yet to be mentioned, but a great deal of the flags being flown from mainstream denomination churches in the U.S. are actually gay pride flags, meant to denote that they are affirming parishes.

Whether such issue-oriented flags should be treated differently, may be a matter for debate.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

The Union Flag has had an awkward recent history of being used by racist groups, so it's hardly surprising that British churches don't display it often. But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all.

The Nonconformists have had a bumpy relationship with the British state, so them making a fuss of the Union Flag would look rather odd - it would come across as obsequiousness above all.

In terms of other flags, I've seen Boys' Brigade banners in Methodist churches. And lots of churches are keen to highlight their internationalist credentials, so sometimes you see little displays and posters showing various flags of the world, usually explaining church connections.

[ 05. October 2014, 22:25: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by fullgospel (# 18233) on :

I find permanent flags in church rather strange; and somehow don't sit well with me.

Why ? Seem sort of out of place somehow.

Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on :

My parish has no flags, for which I am thankful.

Although I do have my Fundie tendencies, the Christian flag creeps me out. I'm not sure why, but it does.

But I think there are times and places for flags in church. For example, a chapel dedicated to war dead, or (in England) a royal peculiar. However, even in those settings I cannot recall seeing a flag near the altar.

But those waving around flags, banners, or streamers while committing liturgical dance during a service of the Lord's worship should be shunned and excommunicated. No exceptions.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
P.S. Has anyone ever come across "the Christian flag" being displayed in church?

An evangelical church in my area had this flying outside BELOW the U.S. flag. I actually phoned them and argued that this bespoke an inversion of where our loyalty as Christians should actually lie--to God's Kingdom above all--but got nowhere. The person I talked to (I don't remember whether it was the pastor or someone else) simply cited the U.S. Flag Code (this is actually part of federal law), which states that if the U.S. flag is with another flag on the same pole the U.S. flag goes on top. Well, in that case don't fly it at all, I say!

[ 06. October 2014, 02:48: Message edited by: Al Eluia ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all. .

As do we at Choral Evensong (1662 Prayerbook) and on the occasions when we do the Litany.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
... those waving around flags, banners, or streamers while committing liturgical dance during a service of the Lord's worship should be shunned and excommunicated. No exceptions.

Bugger

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The Union Flag has had an awkward recent history of being used by racist groups, so it's hardly surprising that British churches don't display it often. But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all.

I may be misremembering, but I thought the cross of St. George, and not the union flag, was the appropriate flag for CofE churches to fly (if any).

EDIT: it seems this is the relevant guidance:
http://www.churchcare.co.uk/churches/guidance-advice/looking-after-your-church/flags

[ 06. October 2014, 06:43: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
... those waving around flags, banners, or streamers while committing liturgical dance during a service of the Lord's worship should be shunned and excommunicated. No exceptions.
Bugger

I ventured to that picture, and I saw no liturgical dance being committed.

However, there was a long streaming banner. That cathedral should be watched closely. [Paranoid]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

The Dean is obviously a dodgy type [Biased]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

The Salvation Army has lots of flags

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But the CofE would be more likely to have it out than other churches, I would have thought; the CofE routinely prays for the Queen, after all. .
As do we at Choral Evensong (1662 Prayerbook) and on the occasions when we do the Litany.

A retired clerical acquaintance who has filled chaplaincies in the Mediterranean assures me that his congregations routinely prayed (depending on their location) for the King of Spain or the President of the French Republic. And in Oman, the mixed Anglican congregation prays for Qaboos our Sultan. *end ot tangent*

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Just thought I'd say I was in London this weekend, and saw a church that had the Union Flag flying in the open air.

It was a Congregational church. It had notices up outside declaring that the UK was in serious spiritual trouble, so the flag clearly wasn't there as a sign of the church's slavish admiration of the state....

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :

Here in New York, I noticed many more churches displayed the US flag inside their sanctuaries after 9/11. It was not an endorsement of the government or military and more a sign of solidarity and perseverance in the face of such a tragedy. The flags have stayed, for the most part.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The Dean is obviously a dodgy type

More banners this weekend past ... muahaha

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

Gorgeous in gold. Sounds like a novel? Might make a change from Revelation, Zappa..

I've attended a few St John functions here in Sydney and lusted after those cloaks worn here I think by National Council members. Should check with my chaplain friend. Superfine wool and metre upon metre gathered at neck.

I looked through all the pics.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
Here in New York, I noticed many more churches displayed the US flag inside their sanctuaries after 9/11. It was not an endorsement of the government or military and more a sign of solidarity and perseverance in the face of such a tragedy. The flags have stayed, for the most part.

Sadly, we seem to have a flag-mania elsewhere for what I am pretty sure are not the best reasons. I don't go to churches like those.

(It's freaking everywhere, car sale lots, just everywhere, and seems to have a scary political tinge in some cases.)

[ 20. October 2014, 17:44: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]

Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on :

Ours have been moving, every so slightly each month, towards the side door of the chancel. Eventually they will be in the hallway and everyone will say they've always been in the hallway. [Two face]

Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on :

This may sound Communist. But I got uncomfortable with all the flags in church post-9-11.

Even in Californicate, I visited a large church that projected a HUGE flag filling the entire wall behind the pulpit. [Eek!]

Sorry, but I go to church to worship God, not 'Merica.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
This may sound Communist. But I got uncomfortable with all the flags in church post-9-11.

Even in Californicate, I visited a large church that projected a HUGE flag filling the entire wall behind the pulpit.

Sorry, but I go to church to worship God, not 'Merica.

Agreed on all counts. Apart from it sounding Communist; if anything it's the reverse, as many Communist countries tried to put the state in the place of God, so being troubled at that kind of political idolatry is quite non-Communist, or at least non-Stalinist.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.

I would bet my next paycheck that that church projects their songs instead of having songbooks or projects Bible verses instead of having people use the pew Bibles. This seems to be the next logical step.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I love the projected song verses. My eyesight is diminished, and those things are =visible= in the way that a printed page is not. And I trust that someone actually reads the Scripture lesson aloud? I do not care if it is projected if somebody reads it, but I could imagine a deaf person really being grateful.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

Our collection of nation flags disappeared a few weeks ago and instead we have a row of colourful clocks representing our mission partners, each set to the appropriate time. I rather like them, they are in rainbow colours and are set above the main door and are not obtrusive.
Mind you, we also have projected songs and verses [Big Grin]

[ 21. October 2014, 20:56: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Projecting a flag, rather than having a real one. That's just weird.
I would bet my next paycheck that that church projects their songs instead of having songbooks or projects Bible verses instead of having people use the pew Bibles. This seems to be the next logical step.

What is this thing you call pew bible?

I know a ocuple of places that have t hem, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United CHurch of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- because the truly faithful are going to bring their own and the translations and pages will differ. ANd ANglicans are expected (whether wisely or not) to listen to Scripture as it is read.

John

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

A rather regimented example.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
What is this thing you call pew bible?

I know a ocuple of places that have them, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United Church of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- ...

John things may be different in Canada, but pew Bibles are fairly widespread in the CofE, particularly, though by no means invariably, in churches that regard themselves to any extent as being evangelical.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

My own experience of evangelical churches, C of E and otherwise, is that the congregation bring their own bibles. These days that may well be on a kindle or tablet. St Helen's did expect us to look up verses but we were also expected to bring our own bible.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
What is this thing you call pew bible?

I know a ocuple of places that have t hem, but the vast majority of Anglican (in more than one country) and United CHurch of Canada (in this) churches wouldn't dream of having copies of scripture in the pews. I've never experienced a sermon in which listeners were asked to look up references -- because the truly faithful are going to bring their own and the translations and pages will differ. ANd ANglicans are expected (whether wisely or not) to listen to Scripture as it is read.

Pew Bibles seem to be reasonably common in Episcopal churches in these parts, though perhaps they are more common in Presbyterian and United Methodist churches. I also know of Episcopal churches that include the full readings on bulletin inserts each week.

Baptists, in my experience, would be expected to bring their own Bibles to church.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

Baptists, in my experience, would be expected to bring their own Bibles to church.

Yes, and they also have pew Bibles.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Pew Bibles seem to be reasonably common in Episcopal churches…. I also know of Episcopal churches that include the full readings on bulletin inserts each week.

My anglocatholic shack does both, but then the bibles are abridged, containing only the Old and the New testaments, leaving out the deuterocanon. We manage to soldier on somehow.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

The black-majority Pentecostal churches in the UK expect worshippers to bring their own Bibles - usually the KJV, which is probably the cheapest and easiest version to buy.

The reason for this expectation seems to be that attenders will usually have to follow the Bible passages closely, and even make notes. There may be an all-age Sunday School which will require that attenders are ready to 'study'.

In mainstream churches, by contrast, the congregational use of Bibles during worship is mostly optional. There's also no guarantee that the individual actually owns a copy of the modern translation that the church uses, so it makes sense for the church to provide them.

[ 24. October 2014, 01:44: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

I think the note taking bit is important to this, in churches where people take notes during the sermon (common in some evangelical circles like the NFI I attend and St H I mentioned earlier) the congregation generally bring the bible they feel comfortable with and will often annotate it. I use an ESV on a Kindle, which may or may not be the version the preacher is using. But his version is usually projected on the screen, as are notes from the sermon.
Another factor is that these churches often don't have pews and modern chairs seldom have storage for books. We meet in a warehouse with folding chairs.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Surely the whole point of "readings" within the service is that the word is read to people and they HEAR it, not that everyone is bent over their own Bible?

As for making notes (presumably during a sermon?) - surely while you are making your notes the preacher will have moved on to something else?

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

Some people just like to follow along with readings. I don't, but I know (for instance) my wife does.

And taking notes during a sermon isn't any different from taking notes in class; we've all been there. Again, it is not something that I ever did, and I wouldn't expect that anyone take notes when I preach, but some people do like it. My mother-in-law would always leave church with veritable transcript of what the preacher had said.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, I make notes occasionally- not often- and I did on at least one occasion make notes in English from a Welsh sermon for the benefit of non-Welsh speaking guests. Kept up perfectly well.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I listen best with a pen in my hand. It's in my job description.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

We have a Union flag (I think it's an historic one) on the pillar behind the lectern; there's a Canadian flag and a Newfoundland flag one either side of the sanctuary, just inside the communion rail.

We also have a couple of historic lion-rampant flags (very historic - they're falling to bits) high on the wall of the south transept.

On Commonwealth Sunday we have a wonderful display down the two aisles of flags of all the Commonwealth countries.

Some Anglican churches here display the flag of the Anglican Church of Canada.

IMHO there is no place in church for an over-head projector. Ever. [Devil]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Surely the whole point of "readings" within the service is that the word is read to people and they HEAR it, not that everyone is bent over their own Bible?

Well, I'd posit that originally the point of readings within the service was that the synagogue/church was the only places the Scriptures could be found and therefore the only place they could be read. That, and that few were able to read them. "Hearing" was pretty much the only way for the majority of people to be exposed to scripture.

But as Jon suggests, some people hear and and comprehend better if they read along. For me, doing so is a distraction that prevents me from really hearing. Ditto notetaking—I have a hard time listening and taking notes at the same time. But for others, it helps them listen. Nothing right or wrong either way.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
...

On Commonwealth Sunday we have a wonderful display down the two aisles of flags of all the Commonwealth countries.

Now I do like the sound of that

quote:
IMHO there is no place in church for an over-head projector. Ever.

Quite. As I've said before, in a proper church there's no place to put a screen, because the rood screen/ reredos/ Royal Arms/ English Altar/ Set Fawr/ huge central pulpit/ iconostasis/ mercy seat (delete according to tradition and churchmanship) would get in the way.

[Edit: UBB was getting to me]

[ 27. October 2014, 05:21: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

In a 'proper church'???

It would be more appropriate to say 'in a historical church building' or something of that sort.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I'll concede as far as 'in a proper church building', then- of any vintage.

[ 24. October 2014, 20:37: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Is a 'proper church' simply a dedicated church building? If so, there are many of recent construction that could make space for a screen if they wanted one.

The architectural characteristics that you mentioned in your previous post won't all be present in many churches. Not even in a historical denomination.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The trouble with large central screens is that they can become the focus of worship...

Or as a child who attends my local church ( [Ultra confused]

) commented : at our church we sing funny songs and pray to a big TV.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

I really can't comprehend how screens can become a focus of worship. They show a page, just like in a book.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Is a 'proper church' simply a dedicated church building? If so, there are many of recent construction that could make space for a screen if they wanted one.

The architectural characteristics that you mentioned in your previous post won't all be present in many churches. Not even in a historical denomination.

Well of course they won't all be present in what I quite unapologetically call a proper church building. In fact I would say very confidently that there is no church building in the world which contains all of the things that I have mentioned, unless someone somewhere knows of a Welsh Baptist sect within Orthodoxy which follows the Sarum Rite... And there might be proper church buildings which contain none of these things- one thinks, for example, of the kind of in-the-round church a la St Paul's Bow Common, which I rather like. There might be a great big East window or a space deliberately left blank. But otherwise I stand by my statement.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

My church building is a warehouse that we bought with our own money. I'm sure we'd all love to meet in a beautiful historic building but we only started to form a congregation here 20 years ago so have inherited no such building or ancient furnishings. Our congregation now numbers around 400 and I'm quite certain we would not be able to find or afford a fancy building, medieval or modern, in central Cambridge that is big enough to host our services and community outreach, provide an office for several staff and have meeting rooms for a Sunday school with 72 children. A warehouse really is the most practical and affordable option for us, ours even comes with an old foreman's house for an office. Even then we don't all fit in and the older children are in a portacabin.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But otherwise I stand by my statement.

You're free to do so. But only you seem to understand what you mean!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Possibly. But of course just because you don't seem to understand what I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean that nobody else does. [Biased]

[ 26. October 2014, 09:20: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I accept that others may be better mind-readers than I am.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As for making notes (presumably during a sermon?) - surely while you are making your notes the preacher will have moved on to something else?

Only if you aren't a good note-taker!

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

I noticed the 13-year-old boy sitting in front of me taking notes a few weeks ago. And yes, I could read what he was writing, and it was definitely notes on the sermon.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I am sorry to report that when I write during the sermon it is usually not notes. Something about lectures or sermons is curiously conducive to fiction.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

And of course the rood screen is where they project ... other things after hours. [Razz]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I must say I'd be delighted if someone took notes during my sermons. Maybe that's what the choir are doing on their phones. [Mad]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

[Hosting lightly]

PS .. we may be diverting somewhat from the topic ... though personally I might start a separate thread for data projection.

[/Hosting]

Posted by DangerousDeacon (# 10582) on :

One of the more interesting display of flags is in St John's Cathedral in Hong Kong. The old colonial regimental flags laid up there (the Queen's Colour, of course, is a Union Jack with appropriate symbol in the middle); this I can understand. But also hanging in full view is a full size Union Flag and the old colonial flag for Hong Kong - blue ensign, Union Jack, colonial coat of arms. It is a startling political symbol to have in Hong Kong outside of a museum.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by DangerousDeacon:
It is a startling political symbol to have in Hong Kong outside of a museum.

Indeed!

is my reaction to that one, even if the attitude of the Communist authorities towards Christians hardly inspires confidence either...

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The 'flags' in the side chapel of St John's Cathedral are: the laid-up colours of HK defence regiments/detachments, specifically those at the time of the Japanese invasion plus the Union flag and Hong Kong flag from the same period. The same chapel also has memorial books for those people - military and, I think, civilian - who died during the invasion and occupation, which was a pretty harrowing time.

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