Thread: Unwelcome at church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I dithered over where to put this, as I'm feeling pretty hellish right now. We got driven out of church today.

I just got back from worship at the little congregation by our house--I take our son there because the big one we serve in on Sunday morning has, er, issues, and he tends to get lost in the shuffle.

LL is thirteen, a real sweetheart and extremely interested in God, theology, the Bible, etc. He is also suffering from a mild case of OCD (mainly obsessions, though the compulsion part is where he feels positively obliged to tell me about it, NOW). Yes, we're seeking help.

In the meantime, he listens to the Gospel reading, the sermon, etc., gets interested and attempts to ask me questions. To which my answer is always "write it down and we'll talk about it later." God knows why he can't get it through his head to do that BEFORE I remind him, I suppose it's the OCD.

Tonight, besides the usual "Why...?" "Sssssh, write it down" routine, he went and had a near meltdown--a combo of anxiety and fear (centered on Muslims in the news this past week) plus guilt (for feeling revengeful). I asked him if he needed to go out, he said yes, I took him out and talked him down. We came in again to go up to the Lord's Supper...

... and a woman in the back pew said, "So nice of you to join us!"

Thank God there was just enough ambiguity in her tone that I didn't go to the table certain she was being nasty. (can't go up there with hate in my heart)

Service ended shortly after, and I asked what she meant. Suddenly I'm being berated for talking constantly, two other women come over to tell me how awful my son and I are, and they throw in that the organist has been complaining about it too. I mentioned my son's disability and they barely blinked and went on the attack again. Shocked and grieved, I asked, "So you'd prefer we didn't go to church anymore?" The reply was "No, but" and a renewed spate of abuse. We fled the building in tears.

What the FUCK !!!!?????

I don't know what to tell my son (he knows something was said, but not what). I don't know if we can ever return to that congregation--if the anger is as widespread as they were saying, maybe not. I'm ashamed and angry and don't think I can face them again. And I am vengefully hoping that they will lie awake tonight wondering if they have just lost someone to the Christian faith by their bastardly attitudes.
 

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Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on :
 
Firstly, I love the questions that children and teenagers come up with about faith. This year particularly it has blessed me so much. It is a precious gift to have others questioning and helping us all to grow (though it might not feel like that.)
Secondly prayers for you all, that you will find somewhere who excpects you all for who you are.

 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
Find another church. You and your family need better than that. Pray for the offenders, shake the dust off your feet, and move on.

Massive hugs and prayers.


Also this Jimmy Buffett song. I find it helpful at times like this.
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I just got back from worship at the little congregation by our house

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Well, I think we might know why they are a "little" congregation.

And what Chast said, in spades.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Bastards!
 

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
You need to follow that one up. Whoever the leader is needs to know what happened.
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Lamb Chopped - are there any millstones in your neck of the woods?
 

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear this... it might be just them... when I first went to church an old lady kept tutting at us, and I remember going home in tears because I thought everyone was just cross.

A woman came to see us and said it was all ok... I don't remember, long ago now, but if she hadn't made the effort I might never have gone back to any church at all.

So, the church itself might be sorry and or unaware. And if not, then they aren't the community you need. I'm sure there are more churches in your area who would be delighted and grateful to have you.

Never feel ashamed of yourself or your lovely boy.

In my church, the people from the local hostel come. And they do everything... from wandering in and out, hooting during the sermon, saying goodbye to everyone in the middle of prayers, ask for coffee and generally be part of God's family. Some people get irritated, but we forgive those people.
 

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Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
I agree with Jamat. Even if you feel you can't return (and I can't say I blame you) you really need to speak to the Vicar/minister/pastor so s/he knows what's been going on.

[ 24. August 2014, 07:22: Message edited by: Spike ]
 

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Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :
 
Oh, Lamb Chopped - prayers for you and your lovely boy. And for that congregation. I hope you can find a kinder congregation. (And organist)

And what the other LC said!
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Little people in little parishes make little complaints into world war three. It makes them feel important, but they often do it without much conscious thought. I know it can be difficult or even hurtful and there is an element of 'why should I have to for everywhere we go?', but carefully explaining the situation when you have the opportunity and expressing how it made you and your son feel can be a very beneficial thing for everyone concerned. If the community is important to you then you owe to them to say something and to sometimes confront small minded behaviour - it's the only way that a community can grow. That way it could become a truly nourishing and safe place for both you and your son.

Then go home. Imagine little miss uppity prissy britches as a tree in your back yard you've always been meaning to get rid of. Take a large axe, and swing.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Terrible experience lamb chopped.

Like Jamat and Spike, I think letting the leader know is a good idea, even if you never go back.


 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Lamb Chopped

I just want to say that because of who I know here, I am pretty sure there are congregations out there where not only will you and your son be tolerated but you will be positively welcomed.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
So sorry to hear this

that you find a kind and welcoming place soon.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Oh, Lamb Chopped - how ghastly. We all know that people can be revolting but to be on the receiving end hurts like mad.

First you must tell the leader/pastor/priest - if only as a cathartic exercise.

Second, you and your boy need to know this is not your fault, nor anything to do with his problems: it is about people being un-Christian.

Third - if there is a support group for families coping with autism/aspergers in the area ask them if they know of a church where everyone is made welcome; you never know, it could be that another 'brand' may be around that is more about living the Gospel, rather than mouthing it.

Meanwhile use the anger (which is fully justified) to clean the gutters or something.

love and prayers.
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
Unchristian turds!
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
As others have said,tell the pastor.

We have learned to manage with a child with ADHD - the semi-professional choir takes him in their stride if he hollers during a piece of music, usually at the most inappropriate moment.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
It's worth bearing in mind that the witches may not at all be representative of the whole congregation. There may be a handful of awful people in every church, while the majority of the congregation would be horrified at such an attitude!

My church is fairly formal, but we include and love the special needs children and adults we have in church, as well as the noisy babies. If anyone says otherwise, they are acting on their own and not on behalf of the whole congregation!
 

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Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 


So very sorry you had to go through this LC.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
We all hope for warmth and welcoming love, but sometimes what we get is a slap in the face, eh. How disheartening.

OK, time to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, pray hard that God will give us strength and guidance, and try to pray for God's love to infiltrate the hearts of those who have hurt us so that they will be ashamed (hot coals on their heads anyone?).

The way to change a culture is to keep challenging it calmly until the message comes through. Show your love in return for their lack of it. Speak to the minister in private and mention that some people are giving you a hard time, while you're doing your best to help your son and be sensitive to the needs of others at the same time. Ask the straight question of him/her: are we welcome and loved here?

Most of all, seek God's guidance, preferably with a spiritual director's help. With all that's happening to you right now, something special may be on its way. Hang on in there.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Thank you guys. I think you're right, I've got to go talk to the pastor (bleah, I hate hate HATE those kinds of meetings). Then I think we'll absent ourselves for at least a week to let him, er, handle his flock. We'll see what happens next.

So angry I could easily use an axe to hang a millstone round the turds' necks, to coin a phrase. And having a hard time not snapping at my poor kid, who does not yet know what they were yelling at me about--and never will, if I have my choice.

We went to church at our regular place this a.m. and he did the self-same question-asking during the service like five times. And then I did the self-same "write it down and don't distract people" thing, like five times.

Thank God we were in the balcony, with very few people to be disturbed by us.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

 

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Posted by LRP (# 5013) on :
 
Love and prayers.
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
What a horrid thing to have to go through, LC. I hope for the sake of the rest of the congregation that the monsters who drove you away are the exception rather than the rule. I think you're right to have a word with the vicar - he/she should be aware that some of the congregation are being as unpleasant as that.

I know there are people who feel children in church should be seen and not heard (there's a lady in our congregation who avoids christenings as she doesn't like the distraction), but there's no excuse for that sort of world-class nastiness.

that you are able to resolve it, either with the vicar or, if necessary, by finding another church.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Not monsters--just ordinary bitches. But i'm rather sensitive where LL is concerned.
 

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
If you’re going to say anything about it all (not saying you have to), I’m wondering if you might not be better to write a letter? The fact that you would take the time to sit down and write it shows that it’s important to you and not just something you’re complaining about on the spur of the moment. I would write an old-fashioned pen and paper letter, as well, not an email.

Writing also has the advantage that you can think calmly about what you want to say and not worry about not expressing yourself the way you wanted to because you’re upset. You can redraft it a couple of times until you’re happy with it.
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
I agree with the letter too, perhaps with suggestion to meet and discuss.

As a minister at churches where I am not there every week I definitely would want to know, and a letter helps me to take it in better too as can look back at it, and I can have my own reaction alone rather than being tempted to throw things about whilst you are telling me and my attention should be on you not planning to kill them.

I hear what people say about not all the church but note you said it was a small congregation, so the balance and space to be aside from the idiots is limited.

If anything like my experience it is probably the very same people who moan that people don't join them... have a less vocal/dramatic version of this in one of my chapels, and they just don't get it.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
Do put it in writing to the Leader - using as many redrafts as it takes to take any ill-feeling out of it.

I can think of two situations in our own church experience that broadly parallel yours:

1. The Boy was under 1 - just starting to become audible in church. It was made very clear to us that, henceforth, only one of us could be in church at a time. The other would have to stay at home looking after The Boy. We simply upped and left. As an aside, the church in question is now on its last legs and probably won't see out the year.

2. We were visiting a Church in the South-West of England. I guess we must have sat in somebody's pew because, when it came to coffee time, we became the centre of an exclusion zone. Quite literally, the congregation formed a circle around us with their backs to us. On that occasion, St Gwladys was sufficiently annoyed that she wrote to the Rector, who was quite horrified by what she heard. Because we were only visiting, it made no long-term difference, but it has certainly coloured our view of that particular church.

We should have written to the Deacons about the first of the situations but, as much of the impetus was coming from the Deacons, there didn't seem to be much point.

But, as has been said above, putting it in writing allows everybody the freedom to be away from a critical zone at the time of the explosion!
 

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Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
I was once at a church which was convinced it welcomed young families and had a special ministry for them as they were the future of the church.

(Actually, have you ever heard of a church which doesn't have this in its mission statement? In many cases it is hard to avoid the conclusion that either they are lying or there has been a spectacular failure )

Anyway, over a period of time and various clergy incumbent reigns, various young families came and went and when the last one departed (they had been very active in the church for a considerable time) the Church Council discussed the matter with a view to discovering what they could have done better and could do better in the future.

They decided nothing, because in each case the family concerned had 'issues' which prevented them from integrating fully with that church community and the church had done everything to make them welcome. Really! I heard about it first hand from a friend on the Church Council.

Fast forward some years and the congregation was a tiny number of very elderly and longstanding members and they finally got a clergyperson who did start attracting and keeping young families, lots of changes, the proverbial breath of fresh air. A sunday school started. Baby changing facilities were provided.

At which point some of the most longstanding and powerful members of the Council having failed to intimidate this clergyperson and prevent all this became disgruntled and left. :
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... I'm rather sensitive where LL is concerned.

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I'm not a mother, but isn't that part of the job description?
 

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Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 
Ouch ouch ouch, Lamb Chopped. Sounds like you ran into the sharp end of a clique.

As others have said, definitely speak with the clergy about this incident. I might suggest speaking with the clergy in person rather than by letter. A letter isn't bad, but I think in person may be better. It's more effective for communicating your anger and distress, and it may be helpful to gauge the clergy reaction to your story.

What follows is pure speculation on my part, but speculation derived from experience, FWIW. Let's say the person who spoke to you initially - "X" - is beginning to suffer hearing loss, and is not coping well with it. X insists on sitting at the back of the church as God and Martin Luther intended, and where X has sat for decades. X's friends know about this. When X complains about disruption in the service, it is far easier for X and X's friends to blame an external source rather than acknowledge the real and grieving problem. In short, it may be a story of two competing special needs, both of which can surely be accommodated with a little creativity.

Or they might just be bitches. Who knows.

If you can bear to brass it out and go back, do so.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Okay, went to go see the pastor. He's aware that there is a problem in the congregation with in-DUH-viduals who can't cope with children, and has been trying to address it for some time. He's going to take another shot at it during the two weeks we are away (kid at camp). We're also going to move up front away from the b*tches. I am dubious about this, because IMHO it will just mean that EVERYBODY has the opportunity to get visually distracted by his wiggles (if they are prone to that kind of distraction), but he's hoping that this will cool off the situation and allow him to say that he has evaluated the situation and never seen any problematic behavior from LL himself. (which he hasn't to date)

We shall see.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Leaf:
... sitting at the back of the church as God and Martin Luther intended ...

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Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 


Good for you for going and doing something about it. Sounds like that pastor has a few tough sheep to deal with there. I pray that God will give wisdom... and that the tough sheep may go a few rounds with the Holy Spirit.
 

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Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :
 
Every time you write about LL on here I want to meet him - he sounds like a great bloke, and from what I see of you on here, I imagine with your parenting he's going to grow up into a brilliant guy.

Glad the pastor in the little church is going to try to do something about the attitude problems of some of the congregation - I hope it works, and that it works well enough that you don't end up with a twisting unease in your stomach every time you go.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

We went to church at our regular place this a.m. and he did the self-same question-asking during the service like five times. And then I did the self-same "write it down and don't distract people" thing, like five times.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
We're also going to move up front away from the b*tches. I am dubious about this...

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If it helps, my wriggler does better at the front, where he has a good view and feels more a part of what's going on. It is both where he prefers to sit, and where he is less distracting
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
The pastor is firmly not in the Hyacinth camp, so that's a good thing. But he does have to live with them...

He too thought LL might be more engaged and wiggle less up front. But I have my doubts, because LL is pretty massively engaged already (that's part of the problem--he keeps making comments on the hymns, the sermon, asking what words mean, etc.). And he has issues with tics, too.

Still, never hurts to try.

I think I may need to refrain from communion for at least the first week we return, though. I'm not likely to be in a proper state to receive.
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I am so sorry you and your son have experienced such hurtful behaviour and hope and pray for improvement in the situation and for your pastor to provide you with the support you need as valued members of his church (hugs)
 

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Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
Our oldest son (now 17) has Aspergers, Lamb Chopped. In his younger years his behaviour was challenging during services. For the last 5 years he has been responsible for running the sound system, challenging behaviour in church disappeared. I hope things work out for you and LL. I am glad you have a supportive pastor.
 

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Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The chat thing would be great, but there's no Wifi in the church. (and I really do need to be training him to pay attention to circumstances before he opens his mouth anyway--which is what I'm doing with the "write it down" thing.)

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quote:

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As for those who started this, they clearly believe that the talking/squirming thing is completely under our control, and that the only reason we don't alter it is a desire to be disrespectful and annoy others. Which kind of blows my mind. Like it's so common for people to come to church on a Saturday night with the deliberate intention of pissing everyone off?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
You are both bright, and focused motor activity is sometimes helpful for tics - so how about learning simple sign ?

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You mean for church? Because they could see it easily over the pew back. We'd distract even the un-distractables, I'm afraid
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I am sensitive to distraction because of my own sensory and anxiety issues, but these are my own issues - I wouldn't dream of tutting at someone or telling them off! How awful that you've had this experience, and I hope you can sort something out.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I don't know what you do to quietly correct LL, but if you haven't already tried it you might give him his own pencil with a Church Question Journal that says on the cover, "Remember- don't ask questions aloud; write your questions in here". When he forgets, smile and put a silent finger to your lips and point silently to his journal. Repeat as necessary. The journal can also be the place where you write the answers together and discuss what he is learning. I'm not sure if this fits any of his skills, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

And good luck with the bitches.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
LC, I don't know what you've got to be ashamed of. So far as I can see you didn't do anything wrong. Except maybe expect to find a more Christian attitude in a church than what you did find. I suppose it's hard to know whether the people who talked to you are representative of the congregation. Do you have any contact with the pastor, at all? And - with respect to organists - many organists are hyper-critical of congregational behaviour for various reasons.

At any rate, it would seem clear it's not the church for you and your son. If you felt you could do it objectively enough(!) you could offer some feedback of your experience to the pastor and/or church council of that place. Many churches, sadly, are just not able to cope with - or want to cope with - attenders who don't conform to behavioural expectations.
 

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Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on :
 
Hugs to you,

I had an ADHD son and I know how precious our boys are when they have needs that others see as an imposition.

I suffer with PTSD and I also have severe OCD which makes it impossible for me to receive communion. I have so many panic attacks I quit church. I totally get what you're saying because not only did I not get any compassion, I was basically beaten down.

I wish I had an answer but make sure the pastor/priest/vicar knows what happened and my heart goes out to you and your son. I thought churches were making headway accommodating people with mental illness and other disorders but sadly, I'm not seeing it where I am. I hope you can find a place that will be more understanding and screw them. I agree with the poster who said there is a reason they are small. You and your son deserve better.

Hugs!
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Now I'm really in the shits.

We went back to church and sat in the far front. Not a word from anyone, good or bad, so I don't think we've made progress or con-gress (?) either. Just staying in one place.

Now I discover that for the next several years I'm going to be minding a three-year-old and and seven-year-old in addition to my own child every Saturday, and that includes during church time. (These are relatives who need help)

I'm grimly considering my options.

Take them to church, sit in the front, and watch half the heads in the back row explode?

Give up and stay home?

Find another church with a different attitude/balcony seating/actual live children in worship/free duct tape for parents to use?

Put the problem in front of the current pastor?


I'm really rather leaning (in an evil way) toward that. Just see if he's willing to accept the challenge. Though it's rather cruel of me.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
No, it's not cruel of you, it's honest of you LC. The gauntlet must be laid down. Does he and the rest of the congregation love you and the children enough to do their best to let you know it and to make you feel welcome? And perhaps to actually help you?

If so, you'll do your best to show them your love in return.

If not, God will lead you to a church where they take discipleship seriously.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Oh sit at the front...With the youngsters. All of them.
After all, you'll be concentrating on them and facing the front.

The back row can explode all it wants.
 

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Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Oh sit at the front...With the youngsters. All of them.
After all, you'll be concentrating on them and facing the front.

The back row can explode all it wants.

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seriously speak to the pastor - it will challenge them as to how serious they are about wanting children/ anybody new who is not like the old guard into their church
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
How much of the antipathy is real, and how much imagined? For example, I know that my church is really welcoming of people with special needs. And noise in the service is viewed not as disruptive, but a sign of inclusiveness.

And yet... we still get people who say they felt unwelcome, thought they heard 'tuts', felt they were being stared at, etc. etc.

I remember, as a young parent, feeling super sensitive to the opinions of others. But, looking back, I see that it was as much my fault for being super sensitive, as theirs for not appearing to be accommodating (they were).

I'm sure in some cases fallible Christians can be unwelcoming. But in other cases....
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I had three people accost me at once to give me an earful on how horrible we were.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Suppose it all depends on how much you feel that you can take.
You have my deepest sympathy.

[ 15. September 2014, 22:30: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
I sit at the front of my Lutheran church. The only people ahead of me are a young mother and her two little boys who are totally wild, playing, talking, laughing, rolling up and down the length of the pew. Last winter, when the weather was bad, the only way I could motivate myself to get ready and go was the thought of seeing those precious little boys.

Go ahead and take your little crew up front and bring a smile to the ones up there who need it. Let the biddies explode all alone in the back far from the joyous entertainment.
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I sit at the front of my Lutheran church. The only people ahead of me are a young mother and her two little boys who are totally wild, playing, talking, laughing, rolling up and down the length of the pew. Last winter, when the weather was bad, the only way I could motivate myself to get ready and go was the thought of seeing those precious little boys.

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Lamb Chopped: Nothing to add to what's already been said, just: You and LL are in my prayers.
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Now I discover that for the next several years I'm going to be minding a three-year-old and and seven-year-old in addition to my own child every Saturday, and that includes during church time. (These are relatives who need help)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've said it before; I'll say it again. People saying they want children in church is like children saying they want a rabbit. They like the idea, but they soon lose interest when it needs cleaning out, handling, and when it craps on the floor.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Thanks, folks. [coughs embarrassedly] I think maybe a couple of you haven't read the whole thread, or you'd see why I'm worried, and why I'm thinking I need to talk to the pastor again about the new situation. And also why I don't really feel I can quite say "to hell with you" by my actions to long-established members when I'll never be anything but an ongoing visitor. I would do it if we were attending this as our only church. But under the circs, well...

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quote:

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Originally posted by daisydaisy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've said it before; I'll say it again. People saying they want children in church is like children saying they want a rabbit. They like the idea, but they soon lose interest when it needs cleaning out, handling, and when it craps on the floor.

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Sadly this is too, too true.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I sit at the front of my Lutheran church. The only people ahead of me are a young mother and her two little boys who are totally wild, playing, talking, laughing, rolling up and down the length of the pew. Last winter, when the weather was bad, the only way I could motivate myself to get ready and go was the thought of seeing those precious little boys.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Thanks, folks. [coughs embarrassedly] I think maybe a couple of you haven't read the whole thread, or you'd see why I'm worried, and why I'm thinking I need to talk to the pastor again about the new situation. And also why I don't really feel I can quite say "to hell with you" by my actions to long-established members when I'll never be anything but an ongoing visitor. I would do it if we were attending this as our only church. But under the circs, well...

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