Ship of Fools: Hypocrite Socialists

Thread: Hypocrite Socialists Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=028046

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Anybody else notice that Tony Benn's will was published earlier this week and he used a fair few tax loopholes to avoid inheritance tax and thus leave more of his millions to his children.

Tony Benn.

Once more, that was Tony Benn.

Fookin' hypocrite. But they all are of course. Want to redistribute everyone else's cash except their own.

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :

Always took TB with a pinch of salt - seemed to be constatnly trying to equate any political crisis with something obscure that happened in 1931, didn't quite realise that requiring people to join unions was as bad as not allowing them to join unions, and everything seemed to be about him - as the Week Ending sketch had him say, "Thish propozhal hashn't got a word in it about Shocialishm, and of courshe one very vital factor izh completely overlooked - me."

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

dyfrig, where have you been keeping yourself?

Wait, it's not the "welcome aboard" thread. What was it, oh yes, just something spouted by Comrade deano. Like, we didn't know that the self-appointed poster boy for socialism was filthy rich.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

And he's reappeared on a Thursday, just as his sig. prophesied he would. Well, sort of.

Long time no see Mr Dyfrig. Have you met Deano yet? We like him; he's funny.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

How many socialists would willingly hand money to this government, or the Labour Party for that matter? Both committed to prestige high-tech projects and making rich people richer still.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
We like him; he's funny.

Though he does have a severe case of Socialism Envy.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How many socialists would willingly hand money to this government, or the Labour Party for that matter? Both committed to prestige high-tech projects and making rich people richer still.

Good point.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

It might be worth noting that the "loophole" (it was actually nothing of the sort) around the inheritance of Benn's house arose from the fact that Benn's wife part-owned the house during her lifetime and bequeathed her share to their children.

I'd have been more ready to call him a hypocrite if Benn - a vocal supporter of women's rights - had assumed the house belonged entirely to him, or had assumed that he would have inherited his wife's share when she died.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

It depends on how you define a hypocrite, and how you define socialism. I wouldn't think that many of the Labour top brass are remotely socialist, so they are not really hypocrites. If you follow Mandelson's edict, they are perfectly happy with the rich getting richer, and perhaps, want to join them!

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

It also depends how you define a "loophole".

Are we talking here about doing something terribly clever that the drafters of the law didn't think of, so as to be within the letter of the law but craftily avoid its intent? Or are we just talking about making use of rules and exceptions to rules clearly laid out in the text? Because the latter ain't a loophole in my book.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It also depends how you define a "loophole".

Are we talking here about doing something terribly clever that the drafters of the law didn't think of, so as to be within the letter of the law but craftily avoid its intent? Or are we just talking about making use of rules and exceptions to rules clearly laid out in the text? Because the latter ain't a loophole in my book.

Great, so nobody need worry about those perfectly legal offshore tax AVOIDANCE schemes, or large multinationals taking advantage of perfectly legal tax AVOIDANCE schemes.

Morality over paying tax is secondary to following the letter of the law. Good. I'm happy with that approach.

I don't know why most people on the ship make the mistake of switching them round though, and putting morality over legality. I wonder if it depends on whoever is avoiding the tax using the loopholes. If BP uses them its morality first legality second, but if the darling of Socialism Tony Benn uses them, legality trumps morality.

Hmmm. Now, where is my dictionary? I want to look up the collective noun for a grouping of hypocrites. Oh, here is... A shipload!

[ 30. October 2014, 14:35: Message edited by: deano ]

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

So Tony Benn's actions have annoyed Deano.

He keeps on giving, even from beyond the grave.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

If Benn's wife's share of the house went to his children before his death, then surely they would not benefit from the aggregation of the two allowances against inheritance tax which would apply if her share had gone to him?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It also depends how you define a "loophole".

Are we talking here about doing something terribly clever that the drafters of the law didn't think of, so as to be within the letter of the law but craftily avoid its intent? Or are we just talking about making use of rules and exceptions to rules clearly laid out in the text? Because the latter ain't a loophole in my book.
Great, so nobody need worry about those perfectly legal offshore tax AVOIDANCE schemes, or large multinationals taking advantage of perfectly legal tax AVOIDANCE schemes.

Morality over paying tax is secondary to following the letter of the law. Good. I'm happy with that approach.

I don't know why most people on the ship make the mistake of switching them round though, and putting morality over legality. I wonder if it depends on whoever is avoiding the tax using the loopholes. If BP uses them its morality first legality second, but if the darling of Socialism Tony Benn uses them, legality trumps morality.

Hmmm. Now, where is my dictionary? I want to look up the collective noun for a grouping of hypocrites. Oh, here is... A shipload!

No, you twat. Orfeo quite clearly defined the distinction he was referring to - it's between paying tax as the draughters of the law intended, with all the exemptions they intentionally put in, and finding a clever way to go against their intentions by exploiting a weakness in the draughting or wording thereof. You twat. I know I've already called you a twat, but felt it needed saying twice.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
So Tony Benn's actions have annoyed Deano.

He keeps on giving, even from beyond the grave.

No. Not annoyed me. I plan on paying as little in tax as I can possibly get away with, but I'm not bothered about anyone calling me names about it.

Why would I get annoyed about someone using the same loopholes as I do.

Oh and Karl, stop splitting hairs, it's unbecoming of you.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

When the revolution comes, I hope all of the wealth is redistributed. There is no economic justice under capitalism.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
When the revolution comes, I hope all of the wealth is redistributed. There is no economic justice under capitalism.

Silly, silly man. There's not supposed to be economic justice under capitalism. Given the way that the legal system is then set up to support capitalism, there's bugger all justice full stop.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
When the revolution comes, I hope all of the wealth is redistributed. There is no economic justice under capitalism.

Yes but in the revolution the wealth (and therefore power) will be redistributed from the few who have it now, but let us have a vote at least, to the few who will have it then - let's call them the "nomenklatura" for want of a better word eh? - but who wont give us a vote at all. Because they will of course know what is best for all of us. Like they always do.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
So Tony Benn's actions have annoyed Deano.

He keeps on giving, even from beyond the grave.
No. Not annoyed me. I plan on paying as little in tax as I can possibly get away with, but I'm not bothered about anyone calling me names about it.

Why would I get annoyed about someone using the same loopholes as I do.

Oh and Karl, stop splitting hairs, it's unbecoming of you.

Oh fuck off you deliberately obtuse cretin. Drawing a distinction between the letter and spirit of the law is not splitting hairs, it's pretty much the definition of how to conduct your tax affairs in an ethical manner. You know that, you're just a sad little troll. Get back under your bridge!

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

[Axe murder]

It's all right, deano. Some day you'll find someone to love you.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Paying tax ≠ redistributing money.

At least not in the way people think of. Redistribution of money should be to make things fairer, more just, and to provide needed services. Often, taxation is redistribution to some entity, industry or corporation to serve some strategic end. Like drilling for oil.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

I didn't realize Rush Limbaugh's show aired in Britain.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
So Tony Benn's actions have annoyed Deano.

He keeps on giving, even from beyond the grave.
No. Not annoyed me. I plan on paying as little in tax as I can possibly get away with, but I'm not bothered about anyone calling me names about it.

Why would I get annoyed about someone using the same loopholes as I do.

Oh and Karl, stop splitting hairs, it's unbecoming of you.
Oh fuck off you deliberately obtuse cretin. Drawing a distinction between the letter and spirit of the law is not splitting hairs, it's pretty much the definition of how to conduct your tax affairs in an ethical manner. You know that, you're just a sad little troll. Get back under your bridge!

The letter is the law, the spirit is the morality behind the law.

Who, between Tony Benn and BP, is obeying the letter and who is obeying the spirit of the law?

Seems both are obeying the letter. Neither obey the spirit. Only one is a hypocrite. Only one is a Socialist. Turns out they are both one and the same.

Let's put it this way, I'm morally more comfortable I have shares in BP than in Tony Benn! At least one doesn't pretend to be only interested in money, but openly admits to it!

[ 30. October 2014, 20:11: Message edited by: deano ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It also depends how you define a "loophole".

Are we talking here about doing something terribly clever that the drafters of the law didn't think of, so as to be within the letter of the law but craftily avoid its intent? Or are we just talking about making use of rules and exceptions to rules clearly laid out in the text? Because the latter ain't a loophole in my book.
Great, so nobody need worry about those perfectly legal offshore tax AVOIDANCE schemes, or large multinationals taking advantage of perfectly legal tax AVOIDANCE schemes.

Morality over paying tax is secondary to following the letter of the law. Good. I'm happy with that approach.

I don't know why most people on the ship make the mistake of switching them round though, and putting morality over legality. I wonder if it depends on whoever is avoiding the tax using the loopholes. If BP uses them its morality first legality second, but if the darling of Socialism Tony Benn uses them, legality trumps morality.

Hmmm. Now, where is my dictionary? I want to look up the collective noun for a grouping of hypocrites. Oh, here is... A shipload!

Just when I think you can't be any more idiotic, you jump to conclusions about what I've said that have absolutely nothing to do with what I've actually said, just so you can manufacture a bit of outrage about the utterly loony slightly-left-of-centre.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The letter is the law, the spirit is the morality behind the law.

Well, I'm glad you've cleared up the last 6 years of my professional working life for me. I was so confused about it, thank you.

I shall just stop asking my clients what it is they're trying to achieve as a policy objective, because apparently that doesn't come into it. It's just about "morality". Which of course we all know when we see.

[ 30. October 2014, 20:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

As a matter of interest, can anyone provide a link or two of times when Tony Benn advocated a reform to the law to increase inheritance tax (by either increasing the rate, or by removing the exemptions that he, and an awful lot of other people, used)?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It might be worth noting that the "loophole" (it was actually nothing of the sort) around the inheritance of Benn's house arose from the fact that Benn's wife part-owned the house during her lifetime and bequeathed her share to their children.

I'd have been more ready to call him a hypocrite if Benn - a vocal supporter of women's rights - had assumed the house belonged entirely to him, or had assumed that he would have inherited his wife's share when she died.

I don't know anything about the facts of the case, but if what you're saying is accurate then we are left with the apparently startling proposition that no inheritance tax is payable on something that is not inherited.

If deano has a problem with that, he is a bigger fan of government revenue-raising than I realised. Perhaps we should charge him a television licence without caring whether he actually has a television.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
deano ... is a bigger fan of government revenue-raising than I realised.

As I said, Socialism Envy.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I'm unsurprised that Deano is morally comfortable with holding shares in BP which claimed to be doing oil well drilling in the Gulf of Mexico in a safe fashion. Except that it wasn't. At least he recognized the hypocrisy.

It will be amusing if his BP stock takes a dive when the BP deal with Putin for the arctic oil goes south. Deano will have gone to great lengths to get ripped off by the corrupt communists.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Funny.

I'm waiting to see what Bob Crow leaves his children in his will. Shares in Wonga.com probably.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Presumably the same as everyone else leaves their children - the sum total of all he has, less anything he decides to specifically give to someone else. So, if he has shares in Wonga.com they get them.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Benn did give up his title but in common with most faux socialists (some of us are the real deal), he made sure to keep his cash. It has a rich and honourable tradition in the Labour Party (Wilson, Attlee, Gaitskill and so on).

He wasn't as popular amongst the working class as he liked to claim: a lot could see through the "man of the people façade."

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Benn did give up his title but in common with most faux socialists (some of us are the real deal), he made sure to keep his cash. It has a rich and honourable tradition in the Labour Party (Wilson, Attlee, Gaitskill and so on).

He wasn't as popular amongst the working class as he liked to claim: a lot could see through the "man of the people façade."

Which is why a lot of the working class are voting for Mr. Farage's party. Good them working classes aren't they?

Oh and Alan, nice little avoidance of the issue there. Dropped the shoulder and away you went. Sweet.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Oh and Alan, nice little avoidance of the issue there. Dropped the shoulder and away you went. Sweet.

You'd better do some work on figuring out what "the issue" is, then. If your objection is to what someone OWNS, such as shares in Wonga.com, then it's got precisely zero to do with inheritance.

You can't take any of it with you go. What people will inherit from you is exactly what you owned - no more and no less. Mr Benn's children cannot inherit from him what they already own or inherited from Mrs Benn. And if someone who owns shares in cigarette companies and arms manufacturers dies, then someone else is going to inherit shares in cigarette companies and arms manufacturers even if the second person absolutely abhors cigarette comapnies and arms manufacturers.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
So Tony Benn's actions have annoyed Deano.

He keeps on giving, even from beyond the grave.
No. Not annoyed me. I plan on paying as little in tax as I can possibly get away with, but I'm not bothered about anyone calling me names about it.

Why would I get annoyed about someone using the same loopholes as I do.

Oh and Karl, stop splitting hairs, it's unbecoming of you.

Oh OK - I just thought that calling someone a "fookin hypocrite" was an expression of annoyance. Apparently not.

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Benn did give up his title but in common with most faux socialists (some of us are the real deal), he made sure to keep his cash.

He gave up his title??? How inconsiderate! I thought he just gave up his seat in The Lords.

Will no-one think of the children?

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Why is deano acting so gleeful about the rise of Mr Farage? A few months ago he was assuring us that UKIP would be totally overwhelmed by Mr Cameron's masterful political manoeuvrings.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Benn did give up his title but in common with most faux socialists (some of us are the real deal), he made sure to keep his cash.
He gave up his title??? How inconsiderate! I thought he just gave up his seat in The Lords.

Will no-one think of the children?

Well, he wanted to. Obviously he either didn't consult his son fully, or his son exercised his right to a change of mind

quote:
I am asking that the Stansgate peerage which was created for a special purpose, having now served that purpose, should be allowed to lapse completely and for all time – preserving no privileges for the future. This is the united view of the whole family including my wife, my eldest son, my brother, my mother and was shared by my beloved father.

(Tony Benn, 1961). Link thingy for those who expect that sort of thing, even in Hell

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Why is deano acting so gleeful about the rise of Mr Farage?

Because his reasoning skills are somewhere between those of a ferret and those of a newt.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

That's being somewhat unkind to ferrets and newts

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

I thought newts were more Ken Livingstone's territory. [Big Grin]

Presumably there have been champagne socialists ever since the term "socialist" was coined. It's a fact of life, Deano - get over it.

[ 31. October 2014, 15:00: Message edited by: Piglet ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Tony Benn's hypocrisy and 'champagne socialist' credentials have been known for decades - if you go back to the original Beyond the Fringe you'll find a very good send up of his ilk.

What was always puzzling was that his tender conscience (and desire to serve) meant he gave up the 'pretensions' of his Viscountcy - but not the several million quid that went with it. Moreover a lot was held in Switzerland so no tax there either.

Similarly, the Miliband father's original will was altered (re-written top-to-bottom would be more accurate) so that as much as possible was kept free of the taxman.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

This is bad, why?

I see a moral obligation to pay my fair share of tax. I don't see a moral obligation to leave my expenses off my tax return. If the point of left-wing politics, be it social democratic, socialist, green, neo-syndicalist happy tree party or whatever was just to say that we should give more money to deserving causes then one could just set up a standing order for a home for distressed tortoises or whatever. If, on the other hand, you think that at least some of society's problems stem from an imbalance between the rights and duties of owners and workers then you are hardly going to do much to rectify matters by quixotically paying more Capital Gains Tax than you are legally obliged to.

Personally, I had rather be thought a champagne socialist - someone who enjoys the good things in life and thinks that they ought to be rather more widely distributed, than the sort of Tory who, to paraphrase H. L. Mencken is haunted by the knowledge that somewhere, somehow a poor person is getting an even break.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Champagne socialists (or fine claret socialists, like Roy Jenkins) are more understandable than working class Tories, who really are your turkeys voting for Christmas.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That's being somewhat unkind to ferrets and newts

Half a ferret, then.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I earn a good wage, well above average. I am grateful for it. I am grateful for the things I can do because I have disposable income.

I also believe that it's perfectly right and proper that I may considerably more tax than a person who earns less. I think it's perfectly understandable that there are various bits of assistance and benefit that I'm not entitled to on account of my income, and have no problem with some of my money being used to fund those things for other people.

The two are not incompatible.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Tony Benn's hypocrisy and 'champagne socialist' credentials have been known for decades - if you go back to the original Beyond the Fringe you'll find a very good send up of his ilk.

What was always puzzling was that his tender conscience (and desire to serve) meant he gave up the 'pretensions' of his Viscountcy - but not the several million quid that went with it. Moreover a lot was held in Switzerland so no tax there either.

Similarly, the Miliband father's original will was altered (re-written top-to-bottom would be more accurate) so that as much as possible was kept free of the taxman.

The Viscountcy of Stansgate was created in 1942. It was a nice title, but I thought Tony Benn came by his money by being his father's designated heir by will; the viscountcy is an entirely separate thing entirely.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

... and eye of newt

[and, I've no idea why that quick response to orfeo spent 5 minutes floating around cyberspace]

[ 31. October 2014, 22:39: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :

Nope.
With an eye, there is hope of seeing clearly.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
[QUOTE]Which is why a lot of the working class are voting for Mr. Farage's party. Good them working classes aren't they?

Why Deano, they're following the example of their "betters."

Some are voting along with many of the "landed gentry" - the latter being the place where racism is at its most intense and pervasive.

Again its an honourable British tradition - the "Upper Classes" being so right wing that they're off the scale. Lord Halifax would've had Hitler in in 1939 and anyone of Jewish extraction out: some members of the "Royal" family shared/share such views. As with Benn, the type is far from extinct.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Sober Preacher's Kid

quote:
The Viscountcy of Stansgate was created in 1942. It was a nice title, but I thought Tony Benn came by his money by being his father's designated heir by will; the viscountcy is an entirely separate thing entirely.

The money in the Benn family came viz his grandmother, a scion of the Wedgwood family *, and the publishing firm started by Tony's great-grandfather - so a fair bit of inherited wealth there.

And don't forget his grandfather was also a baronet, so not exactly run-of-the-mill.

<tangent> * Margaret Rutherford was also part of the same extended family>

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

My granddad was a working class Tory. He grew up in a two-up, two-down back-to-back slum in Birmingham. He was one of 12 and two of his siblings were severely disabled. One died at 16, another in her 30s and my wonderful Great Aunt Nell had the worst case of cerebral palsy in the Midlands ...

He used to wear his sisters' hand-downs around the house and when he started school he was given some clothes 'on the parish' which were a kind of standardised uniform which immediately marked you out as even poorer than the other poor kids.

Yet he always voted Conservative, never took a day's sick-leave and never went on strike.

Sure, I don't understand it either but it's a position I respect. If you'd have known my Granddad and his feisty, salt-of-the-earth sisters then you'd have respected it too.

So yes, it's a position I respect.

Deano's position isn't. Deano I despise.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

The money in the Benn family came viz his grandmother, a scion of the Wedgwood family *, and the publishing firm started by Tony's great-grandfather - so a fair bit of inherited wealth there.

And don't forget his grandfather was also a baronet, so not exactly run-of-the-mill.

<tangent> * Margaret Rutherford was also part of the same extended family>

He is certainly not a known descendant of the Josiah Wedgwood who founded the pottery firm. A footnote in the Wedgwood Pedigrees (written by a Wedgwood colleague of Tony Benn's father) speculates that Benn's ancestor Thomas Sparrow (18th century) had a mother who was a Wedgwood; Sparrow was a solicitor for the pottery firm and had some legal connections with another line of the family. However a kin relationship is pure speculation with no documentary evidence.

BTW I note the Wedgwood Museum collection has been saved from dispersal due to the bankruptcy of Waterford Wedgwood.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

Originally posted by l'organist:

quote:
And don't forget his grandfather was also a baronet, so not exactly run-of-the-mill.

Wasn't it C. S. Lewis who defined an unimpeachably aristocratic pedigree as being "untainted by traitor, placeman or baronet"?

Posted by toadstrike (# 18244) on :

I suppose another way of looking at it is to put yourself in the shoes of the solicitor drawing up the will. He has to act in the interests of his client and also, in the case of a will, the client's heirs.

He has template wills and guidelines as to how to go about it to minimise tax. He probably doesn't know how not to and even if he did and even if his client insisted on it, there'd be hell to pay to the deprived heirs after the client died and what they would say was an unnecessarily large part of the estate went to the taxman.

Probably the solicitor would refuse to prepare a will that did not minimise taxes and he wouldn't get one who would do anything different.

That's not to defend Benn though, he was wrong on so many things I don't know where to begin. I'm not at all surprised that he had a lot to leave after years of being a socialist supposedly worrying about the deprived.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Anyone who puts value on money becomes a hypocrite automatically, there seems no way of stopping it.
The only reason I take my hat off to a tory is because they make no apology for being money grabbers.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My granddad was a working class Tory. He grew up in a two-up, two-down back-to-back slum in Birmingham. He was one of 12 and two of his siblings were severely disabled. One died at 16, another in her 30s and my wonderful Great Aunt Nell had the worst case of cerebral palsy in the Midlands ...

He used to wear his sisters' hand-downs around the house and when he started school he was given some clothes 'on the parish' which were a kind of standardised uniform which immediately marked you out as even poorer than the other poor kids.

Yet he always voted Conservative, never took a day's sick-leave and never went on strike.

Sure, I don't understand it either but it's a position I respect. If you'd have known my Granddad and his feisty, salt-of-the-earth sisters then you'd have respected it too.

So yes, it's a position I respect.

Deano's position isn't. Deano I despise.

Was there gravel and/or a lake involved in his upbringing?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My granddad was a working class Tory. He grew up in a two-up, two-down back-to-back slum in Birmingham. He was one of 12 and two of his siblings were severely disabled. One died at 16, another in her 30s and my wonderful Great Aunt Nell had the worst case of cerebral palsy in the Midlands ...

He used to wear his sisters' hand-downs around the house and when he started school he was given some clothes 'on the parish' which were a kind of standardised uniform which immediately marked you out as even poorer than the other poor kids.

Yet he always voted Conservative, never took a day's sick-leave and never went on strike.

Sure, I don't understand it either but it's a position I respect. If you'd have known my Granddad and his feisty, salt-of-the-earth sisters then you'd have respected it too.

So yes, it's a position I respect.

Deano's position isn't. Deano I despise.
Was there gravel and/or a lake involved in his upbringing?

Or perhaps a shoebox in't middle o' t'road?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Ah, but he was from the Midlands and not Yorkshire. So he never complained, he never made a big deal about any of this ... it's just the way things were.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... Or perhaps a shoebox in't middle o' t'road?

You beat me to it, SS. [Big Grin]

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
......Let's put it this way, I'm morally more comfortable I have shares in BP than in Tony Benn! At least one doesn't pretend to be only interested in money, but openly admits to it!

Just wondering how someone who claims to be an Anglican (and therefore presumably regards themselves as a follower of the Christ) squares holding shares with Matthew 6:19/21 and ibid31/34 - but I'm sure there's a complete defence against any suggestion of hypocrisy.

Question - Given the content of the Bible - is it possible for a believer not to be seen as a pick-and-mix* Christian?

quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:

That's not to defend Benn though, he was wrong on so many things I don't know where to begin. I'm not at all surprised that he had a lot to leave after years of being a socialist supposedly worrying about the deprived.

Back in the mid to later 1970s I worked quite closely with the guy who had been Tony Benn's election agent in Bristol.

He maintained that Tony Benn, having seen from the inside the misuse of the working class by those who constituted "The Establishment", genuinely sought the overthrow of those who wielded power. He also believed that Tony Benn's mistake was to seek to use the extreme left as a route to hasten such overthrow - TB thought the working classes would dump the extremists once the established order was gone. My friend believed that the left would have dumped TB and kept power for themselves (he eventually decided to eschew the Social Democrats and fight the extreme left from within the Labour Party).

One thing his agent was adamant about - TB was one of the most effective constituency MPs of modern times. For example - he said that Bristol SE's council tenants knew that if they had problems getting a leak fixed a visit to TB's surgery would produce immediate remedy. Unless you have better sources than I you might consider withdrawing "supposedly"?

*as in the "Woolies" of my childhood - I'll have a few sherbet lemons, a couple of chocolate limes, a few blackcurrant liquorice sweets and a handful of mixed toffee, but I don't like glacier mints or barley sugar, no acid drops (of course) and definitely, absolutely, no humbug.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Like so many things about Tony Benn you have to dig to get at the truth.

Education, for example: he did his best to hide his, getting references to his own schooling deleted from Who'e Who, etc.

His children have followed suit: you can look in vain for references to their attendance at Norland Place School - all three of them; Stephen and Hilary have done their best to erase mention of their time at Westminster Under School.

So reading TB you'd think his children went to state schools - not entirely true: all started in the private sector and the switch to state happened later - much later in the case of Stephen (for A levels) and Hilary (13), but of course they all only list Holland Park Comprehensive.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
One thing his agent was adamant about - TB was one of the most effective constituency MPs of modern times. For example - he said that Bristol SE's council tenants knew that if they had problems getting a leak fixed a visit to TB's surgery would produce immediate remedy. Unless you have better sources than I you might consider withdrawing "supposedly"?

When I was at Theological College back in the 80s, the local MP came in to give a talk. This was Bernard Weatherill, the (Conservative) Speaker at the time. Someone asked if there were any MPs he particularly admired, and he immediately answered by saying "Tony Benn", not specifically as a constituency MP but certainly as a great Parliamentarian. The two men would have been poles apart politically.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
One thing his agent was adamant about - TB was one of the most effective constituency MPs of modern times. For example - he said that Bristol SE's council tenants knew that if they had problems getting a leak fixed a visit to TB's surgery would produce immediate remedy. Unless you have better sources than I you might consider withdrawing "supposedly"?
When I was at Theological College back in the 80s, the local MP came in to give a talk. This was Bernard Weatherill, the (Conservative) Speaker at the time. Someone asked if there were any MPs he particularly admired, and he immediately answered by saying "Tony Benn", not specifically as a constituency MP but certainly as a great Parliamentarian. The two men would have been poles apart politically.

Weatherill and Benn were both vegetarians, so they had something in common at least. When the Secretary of State for Agriculture, John Selwyn Gummer, gave a speech to farmers denouncing vegetarianism as against the God given order of things, Benn popped up in the House, shortly after to say that it was a brave Minister who accused the Speaker of the House of unnatural practices!

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

That would be John "excuse me while I force feed this burger to my children" Gummer. A real stranger to saying and doing really daft things. Not.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

There is a ton of false consciousness in the working class.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That would be John "excuse me while I force feed this burger to my children" Gummer. A real stranger to saying and doing really daft things. Not.

That burger fortunately did Ben Gummer no harm. He is a really excellent MP locally - and I say that as someone who does not agree with his political views!

[ 04. November 2014, 15:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That would be John "excuse me while I force feed this burger to my children" Gummer. A real stranger to saying and doing really daft things. Not.
That burger fortunately did Ben Gummer no harm. He is a really excellent MP locally - and I say that as someone who does not agree with his political views!

Aaaah but imagine what he'd be like having NOT had the burger stuffed into him. [As clear a public case of child abuse as I've ever seen .....]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Lots of children grow up into very decent human beings despite having a pillock for a father. Which is very good news, since all fathers are capable of being right pillocks at times.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Lots of children grow up into very decent human beings despite having a pillock for a father. Which is very good news, since all fathers are capable of being right pillocks at times.

Anyone quoting Philip Larkin gets it.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Like so many things about Tony Benn you have to dig to get at the truth.

This is different to other human beings, how exactly?

EDIT: I'm mentally going through the colleagues I've worked for years and trying to work out which of them have given me a detailed account of their schooling history. Not a one. Best start digging.

[ 04. November 2014, 21:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That would be John "excuse me while I force feed this burger to my children" Gummer. A real stranger to saying and doing really daft things. Not.
That burger fortunately did Ben Gummer no harm. He is a really excellent MP locally - and I say that as someone who does not agree with his political views!
Aaaah but imagine what he'd be like having NOT had the burger stuffed into him. [As clear a public case of child abuse as I've ever seen .....]

I thought he gave the burger to his daughter. If he daughter is now Ben Gummer then the side-effects may be worse than we first thought...

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

The "warm up" chat before the live broadcast of Any Questions at the BBC (the summer shows) tends to be allocated to journalists and producers various. The audience is brought in and seated while the production team goes through the submitted questions to choose 10 or 11 for possible use and someone gets persuaded to go out front with a microphone and chat about the workings of the BBC.

One of these journalists chatted about Tony Benn who was a regular on the panel. Panellists get no notice of the questions, but Benn was always prepared because he would research anything he thought might come up. Apparently he would come clutching huge (100 page) wodges of his research.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That would be John "excuse me while I force feed this burger to my children" Gummer. A real stranger to saying and doing really daft things. Not.
That burger fortunately did Ben Gummer no harm. He is a really excellent MP locally - and I say that as someone who does not agree with his political views!
Aaaah but imagine what he'd be like having NOT had the burger stuffed into him. [As clear a public case of child abuse as I've ever seen .....]
I thought he gave the burger to his daughter. If he daughter is now Ben Gummer then the side-effects may be worse than we first thought...

Indeed. You're right: it was given to Cordelia. Phew!

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Lots of children grow up into very decent human beings despite having a pillock for a father. Which is very good news, since all fathers are capable of being right pillocks at times.
Anyone quoting Philip Larkin gets it.

It's taken as read.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

An office mate of mine who was a member of the International Socialists was fond of saying that you can't opt out of capitalism.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
I suppose another way of looking at it is to put yourself in the shoes of the solicitor drawing up the will. He has to act in the interests of his client and also, in the case of a will, the client's heirs.

He has template wills and guidelines as to how to go about it to minimise tax. He probably doesn't know how not to and even if he did and even if his client insisted on it, there'd be hell to pay to the deprived heirs after the client died and what they would say was an unnecessarily large part of the estate went to the taxman.

Probably the solicitor would refuse to prepare a will that did not minimise taxes and he wouldn't get one who would do anything different.

That's not to defend Benn though, he was wrong on so many things I don't know where to begin. I'm not at all surprised that he had a lot to leave after years of being a socialist supposedly worrying about the deprived.

That has many errors that need correction. A solicitor could not refuse to draw a will that did not conform with a client's instructions and still retain the client. Ultimately, the solicitor must make a choice between following the instructions (and a wise solicitor would get very clear written instructions setting forth the advice given) or ceasing to act. Most I know would take the first path.

As for the duty to heirs: I know that English law has gone on a frolic of its own in relation to negligence claims by heirs, but the position is still that the solicitor's duty is to follow instructions. A solicitor who did that, having given appropriate advice, could not be liable to heirs to an estate diminished by payment of duties.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
An office mate of mine who was a member of the International Socialists was fond of saying that you can't opt out of capitalism.

That sounds a bit like trying to have one's cake and eat it.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

As a Will-writing solicitor, I have to say that Gee D is correct.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
An office mate of mine who was a member of the International Socialists was fond of saying that you can't opt out of capitalism.
That sounds a bit like trying to have one's cake and eat it.

If I remember my seventies leftie politics correctly, the International Socialists used this as a counter to those who oppose the closed shop, ie mandatory union membership, which is indeed another exaample of getting many of the beneifits of union bmembership without being a member.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

His argument was that capitalism can't be opted out of; it has to be smashed.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
His argument was that capitalism can't be opted out of; it has to be smashed.

I see. A proper Trotskyite!

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
An office mate of mine who was a member of the International Socialists was fond of saying that you can't opt out of capitalism.
That sounds a bit like trying to have one's cake and eat it.

That sounds a bit like you know nothing about socialism. Certainly, nothing on the relationship between capital and labour. Fortunately, your ignorance is easily remedied.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
His argument was that capitalism can't be opted out of; it has to be smashed.
I see. A proper Trotskyite!

I remember, years ago, being present at a student unions hustings. The first question was to ask the candidates to tell a joke. The Green candidate came up with: "How many Socialists Workers does it take to change a lightbulb?"
"If it won't change; smash it".
Most of us fell about laughting and the SWPers burst into spontaneous applause.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
An office mate of mine who was a member of the International Socialists was fond of saying that you can't opt out of capitalism.
That sounds a bit like trying to have one's cake and eat it.
That sounds a bit like you know nothing about socialism. Certainly, nothing on the relationship between capital and labour. Fortunately, your ignorance is easily remedied.

Hmmn. Point taken, but I'm not sure I'd have used the word "easily".

[A Catholic of my acquaintance used to observe that the world would be a different place, but for Martin Luther's piles and Karl Marx's facial carbuncles.]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

[Or Oliver Cromwell's warts - perchance].

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Nice variation!

(I suspect there are several counter-reformation one-liners).

Link to Marx

[ 07. November 2014, 17:58: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Ah yes, people don't have any kind of meaningful personality, just a reaction to their faulty biochemical processes.

There is of course some research suggesting fundamental differences between left-wing and right-wing brains.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah yes, people don't have any kind of meaningful personality, just a reaction to their faulty biochemical processes.

There is of course some research suggesting fundamental differences between left-wing and right-wing brains.

Though that might be qualified as being between the brains of people who a) self identify as left-wing or right-wing, AND b) submit themselves to be tested.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah yes, people don't have any kind of meaningful personality, just a reaction to their faulty biochemical processes.

There is of course some research suggesting fundamental differences between left-wing and right-wing brains.

Such reductionism, orfeo! Tut tut!

Aches and pains and other kinds of physical problems have an influence on our psychological states. Which Marx kind of confessed, didn't he? But they don't necessarily determine them. There is this thing called self-control.

Of course some people are indeed just born irascible. Maybe Marx was? But maybe, just maybe, he actually understood this feature of his personality and the influence of his facial boils on his writing?

Or maybe he was just overstating, for a bit of fun?

Who knows?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Stephen Benn has taken up his hereditary Viscountcy and is expected to stand for the next vacant Labour hereditary seat in the House of Lords.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Stephen Benn has taken up his hereditary Viscountcy and is expected to stand for the next vacant Labour hereditary seat in the House of Lords.

I suppose it's the parliamentary equivalent of being inside the tent pissing out.

That said, this current House of Lords is a shambles. I'm undecided between a fully elected second house or no second chamber, just a pool of expertise independent of the House of Commons, to form committees that questions ministers and senior civil servants and reviews bills.

[ 12. November 2014, 14:25: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Stephen Benn has taken up his hereditary Viscountcy and is expected to stand for the next vacant Labour hereditary seat in the House of Lords.

I know, Passer linked to an article about the subject a couple of weeks ago.

In related news, do pass on to the Bach Family my condolences about the death of Johann Sebastian.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Don't know what Passer linked to but it wasn't about that.

The Clerk to the Parliaments office in the House of Lords only got the request at the end of last week and the claim was only accepted by the Lord Chancellor on Monday ...

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Benn did give up his title but in common with most faux socialists (some of us are the real deal), he made sure to keep his cash.
He gave up his title??? How inconsiderate! I thought he just gave up his seat in The Lords.

Will no-one think of the children?

Here.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

You can petition all you like, doesn't mean you'll be given the nod.

And the nod came from the Party, via the four Labour hereditaries (I'm told some of the Labour life peers were distinctly queasy about the whole thing).

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

Clearly, I can see that Viscount Stansgate would have to ruthlessly elbow his way across the massed ranks of Labour hereditary peers.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Not so snide: there are 20 hereditary peers nominated as 'Labour' peers: only four sitting.

So there is competition to become a sitting Labour hereditary.

It has been suggested that Stansgate should petition to sit on the crossbenches and then wait until one of the four labour hereditaries dies or retires, but seeing that he has already petitioned to be considered for a labour seat this won't be a shoo-in.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0