Ship of Fools: How do you read telos

Thread: How do you read telos Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5%3A38-48&version=ESVUK

I am wondering how you understand the Greek Word, telos.

Most translations see it as "Be perfect as your father is perfect."

However, another way of interpreting telos is grow up, or be mature.

To me, perfection is rather static, and unattainable.

But growing up or becoming mature is a process that really does not end.

In the case of the examples Jesus gives in this pericope is that the signs of a maturing Christian is being able to love your enemies and pray for those persecute you.

Posted by Anselm (# 4499) on :

I tend to mentally translate it as "mature/complete", but recognize that the semantic range extends to "perfect".

Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :

This may be stretching the translation of the Greek a bit (I wouldn't know), but I have a friend whose main blessing he shares is,
"Be Epic, as our Heavenly Father is Epic."
I've always thought it to be a powerful phrase, a powerful inculturation of the gospel to modern readers. Again, not sure if this is what you're after, but I thought I'd share it anyway.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Most translations see it as "Be perfect as your father is perfect."

However, another way of interpreting telos is grow up, or be mature.

One problem is that when the Authorised Version (KJV) came about, the word ‘perfect’ had the connotations of being grown up, mature, complete (from Lt. perfectus). Now, the word ‘perfect’ has other connotations, often being stagnant, and it is very often used to mean something unattainable (although it is still sometimes used with the older connotation, as in ‘perfecting something’). Often it is used negatively, as in “aren’t you a perfect little……”

quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
This may be stretching the translation of the Greek a bit (I wouldn't know), but I have a friend whose main blessing he shares is,
"Be Epic, as our Heavenly Father is Epic."
I've always thought it to be a powerful phrase, a powerful inculturation of the gospel to modern readers. Again, not sure if this is what you're after, but I thought I'd share it anyway.

That is a translation that just seems weird. ‘Epic’ is used more for being ‘awesome,’ while ‘complete’ has more to do with integrity and maturity. To say “Be Epic, as our Heavenly Father is Epic” completely changes the meaning of the verse.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

This may not be what was intended, but it is interesting that one meaning of "telos" is a form of taxation. I wonder whether Christ is making a word-play here -- "don't seek filthy lucre (like the aforementioned tax collector), but seek the fulfillment of your nature as a child of God." I'm sure someone here more fluent in Greek can correct me if I've misunderstood (a distinct possibility.)

--Tom Clune

Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :

quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:

quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
This may be stretching the translation of the Greek a bit (I wouldn't know), but I have a friend whose main blessing he shares is,
"Be Epic, as our Heavenly Father is Epic."
I've always thought it to be a powerful phrase, a powerful inculturation of the gospel to modern readers. Again, not sure if this is what you're after, but I thought I'd share it anyway.
That is a translation that just seems weird. ‘Epic’ is used more for being ‘awesome,’ while ‘complete’ has more to do with integrity and maturity. To say “Be Epic, as our Heavenly Father is Epic” completely changes the meaning of the verse.

To begin with, what you put into "Epic" is to a great degree another issue of hermeneutics. If you consider integrity and maturity to be awesome qualities, which I'm pretty sure my friend would, then you get an interesting mix of the two. There may be a clue in exclaiming the Father as epic, but then again I can see how that could also be seen as a light-headed remark by a semi-hip youth pastor trying to get off the hook with the teenagers by calling God "awesome".

But then again, I don't think it was ever meant to be a translation, as much as a one-liner inspired by the other phrase, to provoke thoughts about what it would mean to follow Christ, how there could be a joy in it, what perfection/awesomeness/strived for quality is (as you point out in your previous paragraph) and removing it from becoming solely a psychological duty or burden. For me it works to do that, and that's what I wanted to share. But then I'm not a regular here in Keryg, either, and nowhere close to being either a telologian or a theologian.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Telos is the end of the line - the closing act of a play - the destination, the fulfilment, the final stage, the realization...

It has all these meanings and more. I suspect it's a pretty good illustration of the difficulties of translation where a word can carry a whole range of meanings simultaneously in one language that any single choice will not reflect adequately in the translation.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

No brainer - telos = completion.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Here is John 19:30

quote:
When Jesus had received the wine, he said, ‘It is finished.’ Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

The word translated as 'it is finished' is τετελεσται, which is derived from telos. It means, "It has been accomplished, the goal has been reached, the job is done."

Moo

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