Ship of Fools: 8th day: Those who have lost their faith?

Thread: 8th day: Those who have lost their faith? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I was wondering whether there is a place to try out a board for those who have lost their faith, either in God or the church or both.

Topics for discussions could include Your story - Stories from churches or suchlike, intended as a cathartic release; Why? looking at theological reasons for leaving, what the real problems were; What do I do on Sundays?

I know this is a particular concern of mine, so there might not be enough for a whole board, but I think there are a range of topics, and a number of people on board who have this issue.

I think Faith no More would be the perfect name, but others might disagree.

Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :

I think this is a really good idea, it's definitely something I'd be keen to participate in.

Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :

Interesting....

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Interesting idea... how about "O Come All Ye Faithless" for a name?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

It's certainly unrestful.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I like it. Support that concept and name need to include more than loss of faith as suggested.

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

While initially supportive; just to play devil's advocate for a moment, would there be an expectation that people wouldn't go in for counterarguments? (How)Would that work?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

It is for more than just those who no longer call themselves Christian. It is those who have rejected formal religion (and could work as well for those who have rejected other religions too).

Some places I would think counter arguments would be reasonable, in the sense of discussions about the reasons someone has left church. It needs to start from a position of "Having left church is reasonable and acceptable", not from "If you don't go to church you have no right to call yourself a Christian".

I see it as offering support for people, partly by letting them argue their reasons and their choices. If it were to take off, and enough were to be interested, I might consider a private board with a similar remit, that could serve as a less argumentative arena.

However my experience is that most people who have left church know why they have done it, and are OK about arguing their view. Maybe another thread could be "reasons people have told me I should come back into the church".

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Would it be for people who have already left, or also for those who are on the edge? (Out of curiosity; I'm in neither category.)

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

It's an idea that could be included in a wider set of testimonies which also includes those who have gone in the other direction and those who have changed faiths or denominations.

I would suggest: "Lost and Found"

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Would it be for people who have already left, or also for those who are on the edge? (Out of curiosity; I'm in neither category.)

Either. I take the view that when you have considered the possibility of leaving, most of the decision has been made.

At the same time, it is not a place for persuading people either way - I don't think the format of an open forum is the right place for that.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I suspect that if you try to prevent that you will be trying to hold back the tide of human nature by hostly command.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I was wondering whether there is a place to try out a board for those who have lost their faith, either in God or the church or both.
[...]
I think Faith no More would be the perfect name, but others might disagree.

Losing faith and giving up on church are two different things, though. There are people who've lost faith who choose to attend church nevertheless, and rather more who see themselves as Christians without feeling any need to go to church. Implying that they have 'faith no more' might be taken as offensive.

It might be simpler just to focus either on ex-Christians or on people who don't go to church, rather than trying to do both.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Do you think there's an entire board's worth of stuff to be found, though? I like the idea and can see how there could be a handful of threads on this, a few more than normally crop up in All Saints and Purgatory, but I can't see that there would be enough distinct topics for discussion to get it flourishing and sustain that.

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

How about a Board where people can share their experiences and personal stories and discuss them supportively but with a bit of challenge?

I've found that if I want to post something about a personal experience I've fought shy of Purgatory because I don't always want a general logical debate about things that matter personally but equally I might want a bit more intellectual input than the supportive words of All Saints.

When I wanted to talk about a family death I ended up in Ecclesiantics (via talking about the funeral) as a compromise.

A personal experiences board could cover loss of faith experiences but also go wider.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
It's an idea that could be included in a wider set of testimonies which also includes those who have gone in the other direction and those who have changed faiths or denominations.

I would suggest: "Lost and Found"

And perhaps those who have converted to Christianity from outside as well?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I want to keep it wide including anyone who has lost their faith. I think this should include a deity - any deity, and irrespective of where people have ended up - as well as a religious institution.

Those who have left church, lost faith in church, should be included, because, for many, the church is a significant part of their faith.

Posted by St. Stephen the Stoned (# 9841) on :

Count me in.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

If we broaden the scope to folk who have damaged ( not necessarily lost) faith,as well as lost? That might get some interesting discussions going.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

My reservations are to do with how personal threads could be and I'm not sure this should be a public board for that reason. Maybe if there's enough interest it could be a private board?

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

I wrestle with this because... well, honestly, on the one hand, is this more of a thing for people who have lost their faith to post on for mutual discussion and support, like a non-faith-focused All Saints? Or more of a debate sort of place, in which some people (for example) might try to convince them to come back to Christianity again? Or would the latter be against the rules? I could see this escalating to Hell calls very quickly if someone feels pressured to "come (back) to Jesus," but if there were rules against that then it would be kind of an awkward board if people could not debate freely. Maybe the private board idea would be better in that case.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

There is a debate aspect - where those who want could explain why they have lost their faith, and others could argue back. There is no problem with that.

I think the only ideas that I would reject would be "you are not a Christian if you don't go to church" and "if you are not a Christian you are going to hell", at least as starting points. There would be a place to argue these two very issues, but they would not be starting points.

However, I am seeing very little real support for this - a few people, but if there are only half a dozen for whom it would work, it is not viable.

Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on :

For what it's worth, I'd be fully in support.

R.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

It seems to me that the board would essentially be about religion outside the box that people try to keep it in. It would be interesting.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

I would certainly dip my toe in.
But for me, it's not about 'losing' my faith - I made a deliberate decision to abandon it. 'Loss' implies some sort of criticism (from where I stand), too much like 'back-sliding' (to which I would respond 'No, a major leap forward').
Any suggestion of trying to persuade me back would get more than a deaf ear.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Mark - I get your point, but it is still a loss of faith, like a loss of childhood - not necessarily a bad thing, but an irrevocable change.

Would anyone else be interested in hosting it with me? Any of those who have expressed interest?

I think, if it does get set up, it will have to work out exactly what is acceptable, and I, for one, would be tolerant of what people were wanting to argue. It might be a place to see what would work and what wouldn't.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Do you think there's an entire board's worth of stuff to be found, though? I like the idea and can see how there could be a handful of threads on this, a few more than normally crop up in All Saints and Purgatory, but I can't see that there would be enough distinct topics for discussion to get it flourishing and sustain that.

For me, the handful might be something like this:

Why won’t Christian people engage with my rejection of their faith?

What are the reactions that you have experienced when Christian people learn of your rejection of their faith?

What can replace the ‘busyness’ of church?

How does your faith background influence what you feel now?

What’s it like for you as a non-theist with your Christian partner (and vice versa).

Do Christians pass by on the other side?

Is your life better or worse after your rejection of faith?

Nothing very challenging - but it's personal stuff that others might share.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

I like the idea of this discussion. It might need a good working definition (or two or three) of faith, and we might talk about dumping faith and keeping spirituality, for example.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
...and we might talk about dumping faith and keeping spirituality, for example.

This I like. I struggle with the difference. Easy to see that, for example, my daughter is a very spiritual person whilst having rejected GOD - but I still can't define what it is she has. Perhaps I don't have to define it.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
My reservations are to do with how personal threads could be and I'm not sure this should be a public board for that reason. Maybe if there's enough interest it could be a private board?

Maybe see how it flies as an experimental board first and, if there's enough interest, carry on as a private board?! Details of how to set one up, including
costs are here.

Tubbs

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I did say, if it attracts enough interest, I will look at a private board, which has more scope.

However, if there is not enough interest - and I am still to be convinced - there is no point. If anyone is interested in this as a private board, please support this, and let me know.

Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I did say, if it attracts enough interest, I will look at a private board, which has more scope.

However, if there is not enough interest - and I am still to be convinced - there is no point. If anyone is interested in this as a private board, please support this, and let me know.

I'd actually be more interested in this as an eighth day experiment. I'm perfectly happy to be challenged about where I am at with faith - of lack of it. I'd even be happy to be pushed back towards it, if that were done with some reasonable degree of considerateness. I find it difficult to engage in purgatory at the moment on a lot of topics, since all my doubts about everything get in the way, and I worry about derailing the discussion. A place where being doubtful was normal starting point would be nice, but in that place I would not want to only engage with other doubters. I'd be pleased to be able to say "XXX is a massive problem for me about the whole christianity thing" and expect a range of response from "oh me too", to "you are completely wrong about that being a problem, because...". It's not that I couldn't have these discussions in purg, but I think this possible eighth day board could have a very different tone to purgatory, whilst still allowing serious debate.

Hmmmm... not sure I'm making sense here. I can't think of a set of board rules which would ensure the tone I am looking for. I still think it could be done though, creating a slightly safer space to explore the realities of where people are at on journeys that seem to be going away from faith, without them feeling they are painting bullseyes on their chests.

All that said, I'm busy and not posting much these days, so my opinion should carry little weight.

Best wishes,
Rachel.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

The trouble with a private board is that it's essentially a closed set. People can't just wander past, think "That looks interesting" and join in; you have to apply to join before you can see any of the discussions.

I understand that some people might prefer the privacy to discuss topics that they felt were sensitive, but it might be better to start a public board and see how it went before deciding to start a private one.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Of the topics which have been suggested to date - Prayer, Food, Sex, Money and Doubt, if I remember correctly - Doubt seems to me as good a runner as any.

I'm of the opinion that all Experimental Boards will have their several difficulties. With Verseworks, I'd say it was the time and effort required continually and consistently to write to rules rather than just witter on spontaneously. I suspected this would be the case and have been agreeably surprised that we produced as much as we did. So I would not allow a particular aspect to sink the attempt.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Firenze: Of the topics which have been suggested to date - Prayer, Food, Sex, Money and Doubt, if I remember correctly

I think there was Music too. I guess you need to listen to something when you pray for more sex while doubting if you have enough money for food.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

If you only want people who have lost their faith to join in, it might be like a 'pat on the back-sharing' atheist's corner.

If it's to be aimed at people who are struggling with their faith, it may also attract both atheists and people of faith who want to try to coerce the struggling into their corner. ISTM that there is a danger of exploitation of vulnerability.

I would be interested if it were far wider, so that we would all be able to discuss the areas of faith/spirituality we find difficult whether we're atheists, struggling or strong in faith.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

I would be interested if it were far wider, so that we would all be able to discuss the areas of faith/spirituality we find difficult whether we're atheists, struggling or strong in faith.

Would it not just then be turning into a Purg/All Saints hybrid?

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

I would also be interested in this.

I'd like to go back to Mark Wuntoo's first post. I also don't use the term "loss of faith" for the same reasons. I can't think of any circumstances where the word "loss" isn't used to indicate something that is negative. Added to which loss is often seen as the result of accident, which is neutral, or neglect, which is worse.

Contrast that to how we talk about smoking. We never say that someone is losing their will to smoke. We say they have given up smoking, or simply stopped. There is a sense of volition there.

So I think it might be useful to explore how the language we use affects the way this shift is viewed. In particular how does it impact on the mental attitude and mental stresses of the people going through this process.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

Maybe faith football: sometimes it's lost, sometimes it's punted.

Or intercepted.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

And those who miss out roll around on the floor pretending to be hurt?

Ah, OK.

Faithless as a name? Just a thought - no "loss", and reflects the study that first brought me to this topic (a Churchless faith).

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

'Faithfree'? ('Faithless' is a prejorative term in ordinary discourse).

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

Faith Optional?

Some Dissembly Required?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Faith free from artificial everything.

I still have not had another volunteer to host with me, without which, it is dead in the water.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

I am not currently able to donate enough time to help host this... for now. That might change in a couple months.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Schroedinger's cat, I'd be willing to help host this. I think it's a marvelous idea.

[ 21. August 2014, 16:01: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Autenrieth Road - thank you. it is therefore a possibility.

When the time comes.

RooK - if you are available then, it would be appreciated.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

PM me when the time comes, to be sure I see it. I'm currently sometimes erratic on the Ship, but PMs will send me an email too, so I'll see it even if I haven't been on the Ship for a while.

[ 21. August 2014, 17:36: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
When the time comes.

That could be in a week, if you're able to put together a full proposal in that time.

Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on :

I'd like to register an interest in joining debate on this sort of board. I'm not entirely sure I can be more coherent than that about it at the moment. Thanks for the idea!

Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on :

I desperately need this board. I am adrift with no purpose or direction.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Then you probably need offline support more than you need a temporary internet forum. Find someone to talk to, be that priest, lifecoach, spiritual director or GP.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charlie-in-the-box:
I desperately need this board. I am adrift with no purpose or direction.

Yes - you need more than a board that might exist for a short while.

If you want to discuss, contact me on boredwithchurch@gmail.com - or check out my web site (boredwithchurch.info).

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I am proposing to put this as the following:

Me and Aurieneth Road to host.

Name : Faithfree

Description: A place to discuss the implications of having lost or rejected your faith, be that in a representation of the divine, or an expression of faith community.

Long Description: This is a place to explore the implications of no longer having the same faith that you once had, what the effect of this is on your life, and what you do now. It can cover the problems of having lost a community, as well as the psychological issues of having changed a belief.

Posting guidelines:The only expectations of posting are that you accept others lack of faith - we have made these decisions for good reasons. We can explore why we lost faith, if people want to, but it is not the place to try to proselytise. Please respect others decisions, and the pain that is associated with this.

If anyone has any critical changes to make, please let me know. Minor tweaks could take us until the heat death of the universe to resolve. We can work out minor details and tweaks.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

What about people who lost their faith in one religion but gained it in another?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

ChastMastr - I want to focus on the loss of faith, so there might be some insight from there, but it is about the losing, not the gaining. I suspect that this situation would have the person focusing on their new found faith.

In some ways, all Christians have been through that, in that they have lost faith in not-being-Christian, and gained it in being-Christian.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
In some ways, all Christians have been through that, in that they have lost faith in not-being-Christian, and gained it in being-Christian.

Well, some people--I imagine a lot of people!--were raised as Christians, though I was not myself. But the question of where the Christian life begins is probably most suited for Purgatory. [Smile]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
What about people who lost their faith in one religion but gained it in another?

I think a single thread on conversion experiences would attract a lot of people.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
What about people who lost their faith in one religion but gained it in another?
I think a single thread on conversion experiences would attract a lot of people.

I can see how something would fit - as long as it is not about "this is the answer to those dissatisfied with xxx", which is always a danger. I would not be too harsh if Chast wanted to start something along suitable lines.

The whole board will be flexible, learning what works and what doesn't. Even over the few months it will exist, it will change, I am sure.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
What about people who lost their faith in one religion but gained it in another?
I think a single thread on conversion experiences would attract a lot of people.

True! It might be best in All Saints rather than a debate-focused place like Purgatory, though.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

The proposal has gone in.

HELP!

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

And duly received -- assuming Adminly approval, it will be next in the queue following the prayer board.

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
HELP!

You'll be fine. We give instructions and training before we throw you to the wol-- uh, before we proceed with the experimental board.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
What about people who lost their faith in one religion but gained it in another?
I think a single thread on conversion experiences would attract a lot of people.
I can see how something would fit - as long as it is not about "this is the answer to those dissatisfied with xxx", which is always a danger. I would not be too harsh if Chast wanted to start something along suitable lines.

The whole board will be flexible, learning what works and what doesn't. Even over the few months it will exist, it will change, I am sure.

Sorry, I was unclear-- i was thinking it would be better seperate from a board about loss of faith. ( as Chast said, in All Saints or Purg.) But flexibility is always a goid thing.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And duly received -- assuming Adminly approval, it will be next in the queue following the prayer board.

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
HELP!

You'll be fine. We give instructions and training before we throw you to the wol-- uh, before we proceed with the experimental board.

The practicalities I am OK with - I do host Waving, and have hosted a public board before now too. It is more "what if nobody posts?" and "What if it is a failure?"

I am not sure there is training for that.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Ah. Well, IMO if there's a Christian-focused bulletin board where such a thing can fly, it's this one.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Schroedinger's Cat, thank you so much for putting this proposal together.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Schroedinger's Cat, thank you so much for putting this proposal together.

Well thank you for offering to help.

It is a passion of mine, the faithfree. So it seemed like a place to try it out.

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

I very much look forward to the launch. The Ship needs this - a place where liberal-minded people (like me!) can be sweetly reasonable, iconoclastic, serious, honest, and have a reasonable hope of someone, when I have a fit of throwing the dummy out of the pram, wiping it clean before putting it back in my mouth. [Razz]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

The prposal's in? Hooray!

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

I'm very much looking forward to this. I'll try to keep an eye out for it, SC.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Unless something drastic happens in the meantime, it should be running in the new year.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Looking forward to it. Good luck!

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
It's an idea that could be included in a wider set of testimonies which also includes those who have gone in the other direction and those who have changed faiths or denominations.

I would suggest: "Lost and Found"

How about "Lost and Profound"?

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Unless something drastic happens in the meantime, it should be running in the new year.

Many thanks SC. I will look forward to seeing it.

Posted by fullgospel (# 18233) on :

A good idea. Good luck.

When will it start up ?

Posted by fullgospel (# 18233) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fullgospel:
A good idea. Good luck.

When will it start up I wonder?

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Unless something drastic happens in the meantime, it should be running in the new year.

The current experiment started September 4, so assuming that it runs the full three months, the next one will start in early December.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Will there be an unlit [Votive]

icon for this thread? [Smile]

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Will there be an unlit icon for this thread?

If I understand you correctly --- that is an interesting question. I have friends to whom, once upon a time, I might have said something like 'I'll say a prayer for you'. Now I tend to say 'I will light a candle for you' . This does not offend my Christian friends whilst it remains true to my own beliefs (if it offends my fundamentalist friends I can't say I'm bovvered!). I also say this to atheist friends: hopefully I do not offend them. Certainly I do not think that Christianity has the monopoly on the use of candles as a way of 'connecting' with people.
So - I like the idea, Palimpsest.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

Lost at Sea

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

Who is? Not me. As I've said, I deliberately gave-up my Christianity. A positive step for me and one I've not regretted. Not lost. Not at sea.
[Smile]

BTW I am not on a crusade.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Is this meant to be up and running? Because I'm getting a message that I'm not authorised to start a new topic.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

It is in preparation at the moment. Should be up soon.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Posting on the Faithfree board is now open to all shipmates.

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