Thread: Interregnums: Parishes between leaders. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
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I'm curious about the characteristics of a parish congregation when a clergy person leaves and another one is being sought.
In the Anglican church this is traditionally called an interregnum and in my experience can last anywhere from six months to two years (give or take).
I've tried Googling solid research on this topic to no avail so I'm interested in hearing people's experiences.
In my experience characteristics include:
1) a drop in worship attendance
2) a drop in event attendance and willingness to help at parish events
Why is this?
My second question relates to the first.
For some decades the Anglican church in many diocese' have encouraged lay ministry and non stipended ministry in parishes. Ministry is encouraged to be collaborative. The parish priest is not the end all and be all of ministry in the parish and work is supposed to be shared and individual gifts encouraged to contribute to the greater whole.
So. IF the characteristic of low attendance and low commitment during an interregnum is "normal", does this indicate a failure of the collaborative system of ministry and the congregation "owning" their ministry? If so, why?
Your thoughts appreciated.
(To hosts: not sure if this belongs here or in Purg. Please move as you see fit.)
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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We call it a 'vacancy' and our attendance went up 20%.
We had plenty of retired priests to say mass and are used to lay people doing all the other important jobs.
Vacancies are good for churches.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Might this depend on (a) how popular/unpopular the Minister was - i.e. did people come to the church because s/he was there, or did some leave because they couldn't stand her/him; (b) to what extent did the Minister focus church life around themselves or around the congregation?
Does the churchmanship make any difference? For instance, "anyone" can say Mass (tho' I know some folk will claim that Fr. X "does it well"); our tradition is built more around the preaching.
IME vacancies tend to draw the congregation together and get them working - provided it's not too long.
[ 22. November 2014, 12:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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It can also depend on what diocese the parish is in and how sensible the diocesan policy (in reality prejudices of the Archdeacon) towards vacancies.
For example, our diocese makes it policy to have a large number of retired clergy taking services: the rationale for this is that it means the incoming new priest doesn't have to face a flock who've already just transferred loyalty to another chap.
In practice what this means is that the vacancy/interregnum is an ideal opportunity for empire building and mischief-making by any forceful person on the PCC who may have an axe to grind or who is a frustrated would-be cleric. It also means that couples seeking baptism for their children or marriage for themselves get little or no pastoral care since no one knows who'll be 'doing' the service and so no one gives their name to any priest. Trying to get the Archdeacon to sort out problems is a nightmare but he doesn't see this as an issue, despite much evidence to the contrary (many prayers being offered for him to go).
A neighbouring diocese appoints a cleric (sometimes retired and local, sometimes a neighbouring incumbent) to be in charge of the vacant parish to ensure continuity, to prevent problems like those referred to above, and so there is a readily available go-to person if there are problems during the interregnum.
The neighbouring parish with its third interregnum in 4 years (!) has seen attendance dwindle to a hardcore or c 30-40 from a regular attendance of 125-150 before the first interregnum. Of course, this hardcore are the people on the PCC and various committees who've run the place during the interregnums so the chances of any upsurge in attendance aren't good...
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Yes, does very much depend on the parish and wider context. I used to be on the PCC of the only wholly Welsh-medium church in this diocese, and we had (for perfectly good reasons) a spell of rather frequent interregna. At that time the diocese were doubtful of our continued viability as a separate parish, but the congregation were very keen to maintain (i) a Welsh-medium presence in the diocese and (ii) an Anglican presence in local Welsh-medium Christianity: plus we had the good will of several retired and NSM Welsh-speaking clergy locally (some of whom attended the church anyway). In one interregnum, which lasted the better part of a year, we had to cancel only one service because we couldn't find a priest, and that was an 8am communion one August Sunday. Impressive.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The neighbouring parish with its third interregnum in 4 years (!) has seen attendance dwindle to a hardcore or c 30-40 from a regular attendance of 125-150 before the first interregnum. Of course, this hardcore are the people on the PCC and various committees who've run the place during the interregnums so the chances of any upsurge in attendance aren't good...
3 vacancies in 4 years suggests either some very unfortunate choices/events (sickness etc.) or some deep seated structural issues. The latter is more common IME.
In which case appointing a new incumbent wont solve the problem - it needs an interim ministry to address the issues before a new priest moves in.
These days it's pretty standard in our Baptist churches.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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My experience with two interregna shows no pattern. In one, attendance dipped for a few months as parishioners followed their old priest across town (in Ottawa, it's likely only a minority of worshippers at Anglican services are from the geographical parish and people are used to driving about the city for various errands). Our magnificently-bearded archdeacon was able to dragoon a retired priest to take care of Sundays and funerals and our MC set up a rota for the daily offices.
In the other, where the vacancy lasted over a year, two retired priests shared duty and worked out a pastoral services rota. Volunteers came out of the woodwork and we had several good local events. As if described in a seminar, lay leadership -- two with theological degrees-- took up much of the administrative burden (admittedly, in a city with 2-3 universities and many government departments, it's not hard to find topnotch retired administrators; I recall a meeting where three former permanent heads of departments were drafting a parish assistant job description) and the parish had never run so smoothly, partly because we did not have charismatic rectors using strong personalities to dominate in administrative matters.
Looking back on this with another former parishioner, we wondered if many of our problems did not have their origins in unsupervised clerical leadership. With large dioceses and bishops going bananas with committee work, clerics rarely benefit from sustained oversight which helps them steer their energies.
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I used to be on the PCC of the only wholly Welsh-medium church in this diocese, and we had (for perfectly good reasons) a spell of rather frequent interregna.
Our (continent's) only Welsh-medium church's last interregnum dragged on so long it caught the BBC's attention! (I even tried to tempt Seasick with the notion )
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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We call them interim periods, and our congregation is in one now. In the PC(USA), they tend to last at least a year to a year-and-a-half, and can go longer. I've seen two-and-a-half years, and I have a feeling that it may be close to three for us. The idea is that the interim period is used to mourn or heal or both, as appropriate depending on the circumstances of the previous pastor's departure, to reassess where the congregation is and to prepare for a new minister.
Congregations typically call an "interim pastor" during these times. Ours has been with us over a year and is permitted to stay not quite a year more. She is trained in "intentional interim ministry"—it's all she does—so her task, aside from regular pastoral ministry, is to guide the mourning, healing, discernment and preparation.
We had some people leave when the former pastor left. We also had some people we hadn't seen in some time come back. There were, and still are, some raw feelings, and it wouldn't be helpful for a new pastor to try to come in before those could be addressed, if not fully healed. Overall, energy in the congregation has been noticeably higher.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It needs an interim ministry to address the issues before a new priest moves in.
These days it's pretty standard in our Baptist churches.
Is it? I've only come across appointing an Interim Moderator (and been one myself) - which isn't the same thing at all.
Does this vary from Association to Association around the country.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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The church I attend here in Brazil has been in an interregnum for almost a year now. Volunteers from the congregation lead the services, I've done it a couple of times. I feel that this period has been good for attendance and volunteering.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Parishes between leaders
Between servants. It's about what parishes do between servants.
(Which is why I don't use the word interregnum - 'regnum' suggests 'rule'.)
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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Doesn't the term rector imply rule as well?
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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We call it a vacancy. We've just had one which lasted a year. During that time we had a retired minister who was tireless in his efforts, but was approaching 80.
The procedure in the Church of Scotland is that the congregation elect a vacancy committee to choose possible candidates. Once the committee have chosen, the candidates are invited to preach, and the congregation votes. Our committee chose a single candidate, who preached as sole nominee, and the vote was unanimously in favour.
The positives - in the Church of Scotland, the congregation has to create a parish profile, which meant that we had to examine ourselves as a congregation and ask questions of what we wanted from a minister. So, for example, we agreed that the sexuality of any new minister was irrelevent, and that if the minister had children they should be state educated within the parish - we didn't want a minister who would send his/her children outwith the parish for a private education. I think that this assessment of ourselves as a congregation was a valuable exercise.
Another positive was the endorsement with which our new minister started his ministry.
The negatives - we trod water for a year; we didn't have a single new member join, whilst several members died. People wanted to wait until the new minister was in situ, before deciding about membership. We have had a membership bounce since the new minister started. Elderly members are still dying faster than new members join, but the decline has been arrested!
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In the other, where the vacancy lasted over a year, two retired priests shared duty and worked out a pastoral services rota. Volunteers came out of the woodwork and we had several good local events. As if described in a seminar, lay leadership -- two with theological degrees-- took up much of the administrative burden (admittedly, in a city with 2-3 universities and many government departments, it's not hard to find topnotch retired administrators; I recall a meeting where three former permanent heads of departments were drafting a parish assistant job description) and the parish had never run so smoothly, partly because we did not have charismatic rectors using strong personalities to dominate in administrative matters.
This is largely what I'm curious about.
Are those parishes that struggle during vacancies the ones that have a poor network of trained and responsible people that exercise their gifts in a regular capacity during the time when a paid minister is there?
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Doesn't the term rector imply rule as well?
This. Exactly this.
Omphaloskeptic interimcies of more than nine to twelve month are an Onanistic Death Wish.
Multibillion-dollar companies take less time.
Evangelism can't wait. Let's get on with it!
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Omphaloskeptic interimcies of more than nine to twelve month are an Onanistic Death Wish.
Please don't make me google.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In the other, where the vacancy lasted over a year, two retired priests shared duty and worked out a pastoral services rota. Volunteers came out of the woodwork and we had several good local events. As if described in a seminar, lay leadership -- two with theological degrees-- took up much of the administrative burden (admittedly, in a city with 2-3 universities and many government departments, it's not hard to find topnotch retired administrators; I recall a meeting where three former permanent heads of departments were drafting a parish assistant job description) and the parish had never run so smoothly, partly because we did not have charismatic rectors using strong personalities to dominate in administrative matters.
This is largely what I'm curious about.
Are those parishes that struggle during vacancies the ones that have a poor network of trained and responsible people that exercise their gifts in a regular capacity during the time when a paid minister is there?
I think that is true.
We were used to different preachers - neither the current nor the former vicar ever preached more than once a month.
Someone above mentioned baptisms - our baptism and marriage preparation has been done by laypeople (at different times, depending on who is around - we have a high turnover of congregation because of our geography).
I was the only person licensed to take funerals during our last vacancy (of two years) so was the first port of call for funeral directors.
It seems that too many churches put all the work on to vicars.
Posted by hatless (# 3365) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It needs an interim ministry to address the issues before a new priest moves in.
These days it's pretty standard in our Baptist churches.
Is it? I've only come across appointing an Interim Moderator (and been one myself) - which isn't the same thing at all.
Does this vary from Association to Association around the country.
I was moderator at a Baptist church up north that appointed an interim minister. I think it's an excellent idea when a ministry has ended suddenly or badly. Some Regional Ministers seem keen on the idea, but I don't know how common it is.
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
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quote:
originally posted by Evensong:
This is largely what I'm curious about.
Are those parishes that struggle during vacancies the ones that have a poor network of trained and responsible people that exercise their gifts in a regular capacity during the time when a paid minister is there?
Yes
However, unless a parish has a good interim, the longer the vacancy the longer any parish will struggle. The way we do deployment is no longer worth the effort. If it was up to me, I'd go with the United Methodist system in a heartbeat.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Omphaloskeptic interimcies of more than nine to twelve month are an Onanistic Death Wish.
Multibillion-dollar companies take less time.
Evangelism can't wait. Let's get on with it!
Maybe, or maybe not. Sometimes moving too quickly is the death wish. Sometimes things need to be dealt with before a new minister can be successful. And much depends on whether a denomination leaves a congregation to flounder during the interim or whether there are means of support in place.
And who says evangelism is waiting? In my experience, the interim is an ideal time for a congegation to take ownership of its own role in mission and evangelism rather than expecting the clergy to bear that responsibility. Properly done, the interim has the potential for quite a bit of renewal in a congregation.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It seems that too many churches put all the work on to vicars.
No doubt there are places where this is true. There are clergy who are so patronising and clericalist that they refuse to value the talents of anyone without a theology degree or evidence of episcopal laying on of hands. And there are lay people who see the church as their private club at which for a minimum subscription they obtain spiritual favours which they expect others to provide.
But in many parishes it's a question of 'chance would be a fine thing.' In several struggling urban parishes that I know of, lay leadership is in very short supply. Not because lay people lack gifts or enthusiasm, but often because they are stretched up to the limit ministering to their families, their neighbours, in local community groups; or because they are (often prematurely) elderly or infirm. Working class congregations are often, even more than middle class ones, predominantly female and over 50; the demographic that is least likely to possess the confidence conferred by education, or the managerial and organisational skills necessary to keep the church machine ticking over. In some inner-city parishes the lay leadership has mostly moved out of the area, commuting back for Sunday worship but tending to be a conservative influence on the life of the parish and deterring new members... and in any case the population has been decimated and there are few younger people around to take over. It's parishes like these that need full time priests to energise them and give them confidence, not to do their work for them. A long vacancy can be a death knell.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
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In my Anglican Diocese I think there is way too much emphasis on the role of the Minister as being the leader and the be all and end all of the church. The natural consequence of this of course is a great deal of anxiety, uncertainty and disruption during interregnum periods and then when the new Minister arrives, people leave and some arrive because they've followed the Minister from wherever he was before. So as to the second part of the question, I do think that a lot more work needs to be done before we begin to approach a collaborative system.
Having seen this process a number of times now, I'm beginning to think that congregations would be a lot healthier if we followed the old Methodist system of a Minister being "called" for a limited period, eg 4 years. That way we'd be encouraged to see the church as having an ongoing life and identity independent of the Minister.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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Reviewing these posts, I wonder if there be no single formula. I happen to be in a place where, owing to a large number of retired bureaucrats and military, we have no shortage of top-notch layfolk with time on their hands and energy to burn. Not everywhere is like that. At the interregnum which I discussed, we had two excellent retired priests working as an interim team. I think that these were two key factors. And certainly in consideration of the disasters which followed, this may have taken on the appearance of a golden age.
I think that a lengthy interregnum is a real problem. A specialization of interim ministry has developed, as has one of doing parish profiles. While they both have their downside, and a parish profile can easily end up being a lengthy version of the justly-reviled mission statement, they have the advantage of a period of self-examination, a useful tool for building community and assessing a congregation's human resources and the environment in which a parish operates.
It is also important to have a competent bishop engaged in the process-- after years of dealing with organizations, I saw that a leader's real job is in staffing positions (and combatting the Arians, but that's another thread). Just letting a process happen without someone watching it....
A minor detail-- in my post above, I said that there were two lay leaders with theological degrees. It turns out that only one of them had a theological degree, and that the other was in the anthropology of religion. A minor point, but...
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
A specialization of interim ministry has developed, as has one of doing parish profiles.
Yes, we do hear more and more about "intentional" interim ministry as a vocation these days, with some clergy developing a specialty for "acute care" scenarios.
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
A specialization of interim ministry has developed, as has one of doing parish profiles.
Yes, we do hear more and more about "intentional" interim ministry as a vocation these days, with some clergy developing a specialty for "acute care" scenarios.
And of course intentional interims come with their own set of issues.
In a former parish, which had no building -- we worshipped in a school and the office was first a room in an office building and then the rector's one -- we were declining and the rector, well past his best-before date finally found another place (have to say he was and still is a good friend).
Our "intentional interim" -- trained as such, we were told, came in all hot to trot. Totally disoriented by the fact we didn't have a building, didn't have endowments ("but all Anglican parishes have endowments") and had a very strong lay community that did just about everything. Poor man spent 6-8 months trying to teach us that we didn't need a building and that the people were the "church", despite the fact that he found being without a building a sore trial. Nearly at the end of his year he finally worked out that what his profs had told him was sometimes true ("all parishes losing a long-time receotr need to be taught to value community and stop thinking the church is athe building") and sometimes not.
Fast forward a coupple of years. New interim. Sweet person. Three years out of seminary and ordination. No problems with no building, no problems with the community. How to grow? Well, as her profs (at a well-known theological college in TOronto specialising in evangelism) had tuaght her, you act as a Christian in the world, and people will notice how different you are, will ask you why and will come flocking in the doors. Not so much.
Effectively the place is now closed, though a small group of people meet in a small building. ONe point of a five-point parish, where it was once standing on its own.
Be very careful when you consider interim ministry -- it can be a wonderful process, but if can also be at best a temporizing measure and a worst a disaster.
JOhn
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
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I don't think you can be an effective interim fresh out of seminary.
[ 24. November 2014, 01:14: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
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It's only in coming to Canada that I have encountered the interim ministry phenomenon. Initially, it seemed a good idea - better than the haphazard arrangements that usually apply in an interegnum in the UK. It can provide a degree of stability and direction whilst giving a church space and time to think about what they really want/need from a new minister.
But I do see some problems in the practical outworking. The interim minister needs to have certain qualities and experience that not all ministers have. I've also already seen too many situations where the interim minister moves on unexpectedly, perhaps because they have found a permanent position. This means the church goes through more upheaval and instability.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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I have come across interim ministry in the Baptist Church locally. Whatever happened with the previous Baptist minister got nasty and legal and ensured some big changes further up to ensure that it didn't happen again. The interim minister was put in to settle that church before anyone else had to deal with it. She was definitely an interim minister and this was what she did.
How much other supportive ministry is available in a local area during an interregnum is very dependent on the area. I have lived in rural areas where there were a number of retired priests to call on as cover. Where I currently live, in a London commuter area, there were three priests we could call on in a very wide area when I was booking funerals. Local church teams work together to cover holidays and sickness, and have to plan their own rotas around what else they're being called to do. An interregnum just puts pressure on everyone else. This area is far too expensive to retire to. The next diocese further out has something like 300 retired priests to call on.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I have come across interim ministry in the Baptist Church locally. Whatever happened with the previous Baptist minister got nasty and legal and ensured some big changes further up to ensure that it didn't happen again. The interim minister was put in to settle that church before anyone else had to deal with it. She was definitely an interim minister and this was what she did.
I was appointed to a church following a 4 year vacancy (yes you heard right). I wish there'd been an interim minister in place -- things had ended well before and it had carried on into the vacancy. In 4 years attitudes had hardened into non negotiables.
Interim roles of this kind are used in Baptist churches where things don't end well, as you've rightly said. It's the norm to have a moderator who will guide, chair meetings and usually preach from time to time. These are usually excellent people (often not "ordained") who bring real dimension to churches by helping them look at themselves and how they might develop.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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We had both an Interim Moderator and an Interim minister, which I think is fairly common. The Interim Moderator was the minister of an adjoining parish, who knew our church well, but who couldn't take Sunday services as he had his own church. The Interim minister was a retired minister who also knew our church well.
We kept everything going during the vacancy but I think there was a reluctance to start anything new as we didn't know what to expect under a new minister. Also, we were all very conscious that our Interim Minister was 78, and no-one wanted to feel that they were creating extra work for him.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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The Church where I grew up is at present in vacancy. They have appointed as Interim Minister someone slightly older than myself, a retired minister of great competence who has served several churches but who, in fact, also was raised in the church (and who has kept in touch over many years).
Of course both church and neighbourhood have vastly changed, but I have no doubt that he is doing a good job - in fact this is (at least) his second Interim Ministry), so he "knows the ropes"!
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
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In both the baptist and a charismatic church I've been a part of, we've had interregna and each was referred to as an interregnum.
At the baptist church, it simply meant that we had a whole load of guest preachers so the teaching was a bit scattergun compared to the normal approach of going through one book of the bible systematically or going through a particular theme. The functioning of the church didn't really change as we had a reasonable-sized eldership team who took over the running of the everyday affairs.
At the charismatic church, the eldership was smaller, so one chap was appointed interim minister (he was the only qualified reverend) for about a year and a half before being made permanent.
In both cases, the church grew slightly during those times and there was no major disruption other than the sermon topics in the baptist church.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Doesn't the term rector imply rule as well?
According to my understanding, no it doesn't. 'Rector' implies a member of clergy who has the 'rights' to the tithes of the parish. A 'vicar' is a representative thereof.
Arguably, priest/presbyter and elder (the English translation) all do imply a position, at least, of seniority.
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on
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Interims are quite standard here in the Episcopal Mid-Atlantic area.
The parish I just recently left has almost been killed at least twice in recent memory by interims. It's a historic Anglo-Catholic parish-- the first attempted assassin was Baby-Boomer Broad Church; the other wanted to pretend it was a current Roman Catholic parish. When the new rector departed suddenly we got a retired cleric who's a lovely person but simply out of energy...
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Doesn't the term rector imply rule as well?
According to my understanding, no it doesn't. 'Rector' implies a member of clergy who has the 'rights' to the tithes of the parish. A 'vicar' is a representative thereof.
Arguably, priest/presbyter and elder (the English translation) all do imply a position, at least, of seniority.
According to my trusty Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary the first definition of rector is one who directs and is derived from the Latin word regere -to lead straight, direct, rule. My point is simple. If you are allergic to the term interregnum because it implies rule then for consistency's sake the same should apply to rector.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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We Baptists only have Ministers ... but we still tend to have interregnums (much to my distaste).
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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Prester John, I believe this is a pond difference, with your dictionary true to the Episcopal Church usage.
Posted by hatless (# 3365) on
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Isn't rector linked to righter, richter, corrector? So a judge or arbitrator? Not quite the same as ruler.
In my time in ministry, interregnum has been largely replaced by pastoral vacancy, a process that I didn't think was meeting any resistance.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Of course, some "pastors" are more "vacant" than others ...
Speaking seriously, I have come to feel that "vacancy", although imperfect, is probably the best term to use.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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Hatless One of the beauties of the English language is that words are inter-related by their common base. so you can have rector, corrector, righter, and so forth with related meanings. But they are not synonyms but rather have subtle differences. That applies to the list you gave.
As a hemisphere oddity. In the Anglican Church in NSW, the usual term is Rector. In Victoria, the usual term is Vicar. I cannot remember the position in other States and the Territories - although vague memory says that quite understandably the ACT uses Rector. Nowhere have I seen any definitive explanation. All I can assume is that when NSW was founded, and after the move from a chaplaincy had been made, parishes were established such that Rector was the correct title and that stuck even in parishes founded a couple of centuries later. By contrast, Victorian parishes were either founded without tithes (the more likely suggestion), or such that only the lesser tithes went to the minister.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As a hemisphere oddity. In the Anglican Church in NSW, the usual term is Rector. In Victoria, the usual term is Vicar.
Interesting! I thought that was an English thing. Here in WA it is rector.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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I think this is right.
A rector was entitled to all the tithes but was responsible for maintaining the chancel. Before the Reformation, many parishes belonged to monasteries, which were therefore entitled to the tithes If they appointed someone to the living other than one of their own monks, he was vicariously responsible, i.e. on their behalf. He was therefore a vicar. The tithes were split between the monastery and the vicar. The monastery got the bigger portion but was responsible for the chancel.
After the Reformation, monastic estates were sold, and the lay people who bought them, became entitled to the tithes. They were called lay rectors. Their land continued, and continues, to carry responsibility for maintaining the chancel. There's been a celebrated case about this in Warwickshire, very recently.
There were also perpetual curates and priests in charge. Perpetual curates got no tithes but held the living, had security of tenure and were funded by an endowment, now replaced by a salary.
Clergy don't get tithes any more. So I suppose you could say that all those that have the living, whatever they are called, are perpetual curates. Those that don't, the current fashion, are priests in charge.
I'm sure somebody who knows what they are talking about will say this summary is complete kack.
[ 25. November 2014, 11:18: Message edited by: Enoch ]
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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Evensong, thanks for that. I shall tuck it away in a suitable corner.
Enoch, that is my understanding of the English history, so if you're wrong at least you have company. What I don't understand is why there is the difference between NSW and Victoria, and as far as I know, no-one has written on it. If I get to speak to Ken Cable about it - if anyone knows, he would - I shan't be in a condition to report back to the Ship on it.
An aside: a rector here once said of the regional bishop that while the rector was the archbishop's deputy, the regional bishop was simply his curate. Very true, very accurate.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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When the church I attended was in interregnum some 20 years ago. We were quoted some research that said attendance dropped by 10% in interregna, but it was so long ago that i'm afraid that I have no idea what research it was or where it was from..#
In my diocese the cover in interregna is up to the church and wardens to find. Some are lucky and get continuity, others struggle to get weekly cover. A lot depends on the availability of retired clergy, my deanery has very few cover is a struggle..
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
We had both an Interim Moderator and an Interim minister, which I think is fairly common. The Interim Moderator was the minister of an adjoining parish, who knew our church well, but who couldn't take Sunday services as he had his own church. The Interim minister was a retired minister who also knew our church well.
You didn't have an Interim Minister: you had a Locum. Interim Ministers are effectively troubleshooters, and they are fairly rare - they are only ever appointed to a church that has some issues to work through, and isn't yet ready to call a new minister. They are usually appointed for only a year or two, after which the church is hopefully given permission by Presbytery to call a minister.
Interim Ministers are a tough breed!
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Methodist ministers in Britain are initially stationed at a church for five years. They may renew for another five, or for a shorter period if there's a special reason for doing so. Most ministers have to lead several churches anyway, so if one church in a circuit loses a minister for whatever reason then one of the others in the same circuit will usually take it on until a minister from outside comes along to start a five year stint.
As a result of this system, the idea of an interregnum* doesn't seem entirely relevant to British Methodism. Ministers are always perceived as being somewhat temporary.
*I'd be interested to hear if the term is in fact used in some situations, though.
[ 25. November 2014, 22:24: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
You didn't have an Interim Minister: you had a Locum. Interim Ministers are effectively troubleshooters, and they are fairly rare ... Interim Ministers are a tough breed!
While you may well be right, I have never heard the term "Locum" used - perhaps this varies from denomination to denomination.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
..In my diocese the cover in interregna is up to the church and wardens to find...
I think that's generally true, isn't it (although one would expect some help from the Rural Dean)? AIUI ensuring that divine service is celebrated is one of the core duties of the wardens.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
As it is the duty of URC elders: "They are ... expected to ensure that public worship and the sacraments are regularly offered alongside pastoral care and welfare of the congregation".
[ 26. November 2014, 08:01: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
..In my diocese the cover in interregna is up to the church and wardens to find...
I think that's generally true, isn't it (although one would expect some help from the Rural Dean)? AIUI ensuring that divine service is celebrated is one of the core duties of the wardens.
Sorry for not being clear, thats posting at night for you.
yes it is, I was replying to l'organist's comment that in her part of the world there is a diocese that appoints interim ministers, as i have never come across that before.
And who we get for cover may well be an assortment of clergy as it depends on who the wardens can get.. Rather than because of any decision of the diocese.
Sorry
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
You didn't have an Interim Minister: you had a Locum. Interim Ministers are effectively troubleshooters, and they are fairly rare ... Interim Ministers are a tough breed!
While you may well be right, I have never heard the term "Locum" used - perhaps this varies from denomination to denomination.
Sure enough.
NEQ and I are both Church of Scotland, and "Locum" is the common term here for a stand-in minister. They usually cover Sunday services and funerals on a two-days-a-week basis, although more full time arrangements can be made. What they don't do is chair meetings or do any of the church planning or paperwork or business. Their role is to look after the pastoral side of things, while the Interim Moderator gets to do the legal processes.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
..In my diocese the cover in interregna is up to the church and wardens to find...
I think that's generally true, isn't it (although one would expect some help from the Rural Dean)? AIUI ensuring that divine service is celebrated is one of the core duties of the wardens.
Sorry for not being clear, thats posting at night for you.
yes it is, I was replying to l'organist's comment that in her part of the world there is a diocese that appoints interim ministers, as i have never come across that before.
And who we get for cover may well be an assortment of clergy as it depends on who the wardens can get.. Rather than because of any decision of the diocese.
Sorry
Nothing to be sorry for- I was just aiming to amplify your point and sympathise with you - my apologies if I came across as snotty or nitpicking.
[ 26. November 2014, 10:31: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
..In my diocese the cover in interregna is up to the church and wardens to find...
I think that's generally true, isn't it (although one would expect some help from the Rural Dean)? AIUI ensuring that divine service is celebrated is one of the core duties of the wardens.
Sorry for not being clear, thats posting at night for you.
It's ok I was just apologising for not being clear in the first place.. It was clear in my head late at night,but not in the post.....
yes it is, I was replying to l'organist's comment that in her part of the world there is a diocese that appoints interim ministers, as i have never come across that before.
And who we get for cover may well be an assortment of clergy as it depends on who the wardens can get.. Rather than because of any decision of the diocese.
Sorry
Nothing to be sorry for- I was just aiming to amplify your point and sympathise with you - my apologies if I came across as snotty or nitpicking.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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posted by Zaccheus quote:
I was replying to l'organist's comment that in her part of the world there is a diocese that appoints interim ministers
But I didn't say that.
What I said was that one of the local clergy - sometimes in-post, sometimes retired - is designated as a locum (if you wish) for the duration of the interregnum; they report to two people - the Rural Dean and the Archdeacon.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
You didn't have an Interim Minister: you had a Locum. Interim Ministers are effectively troubleshooters, and they are fairly rare ... Interim Ministers are a tough breed!
While you may well be right, I have never heard the term "Locum" used - perhaps this varies from denomination to denomination.
Sure enough.
NEQ and I are both Church of Scotland, and "Locum" is the common term here for a stand-in minister. They usually cover Sunday services and funerals on a two-days-a-week basis, although more full time arrangements can be made. What they don't do is chair meetings or do any of the church planning or paperwork or business. Their role is to look after the pastoral side of things, while the Interim Moderator gets to do the legal processes.
Cottontail is right - I got my terminology mixed up. I think our locum was working at least three days a week - one day for hospital / sick visiting, one for funerals / pastoral, plus the Sunday service and preparation thereof. Pretty impressive at 78! Our main concern was to stop him from doing more than he was contracted to do, and working himself into the ground.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Our neighbouring parish (two-and-half times the population of ours, but with a almost equally high level of deprivation, according to the Church Urban Fund index) is now in interregnum, but has, thanks be to God, been provided with an Interim Minister, who is also a part-time Chaplain in a secular field.
The parish in question is blessed with an active lay ministry team of Readers, Pastoral Assistants, and an Evangelist, to help deal with the large numbers of Baptisms and Weddings etc., so there is no question of the Interim Minister having to do everything himself. The post of Priest-in-Charge is currently advertised, but IMNSHO it will take a while to fill......and then only by someone who is looking for a challenge....
Ian J.
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The post of Priest-in-Charge is currently advertised, but IMNSHO it will take a while to fill......and then only by someone who is looking for a challenge....
Ian J.
Even after an appointment has been made, in the natural course of events, it will be another four months before the incoming priest takes up the appointment - three months notice when they are leaving and one month in-between jobs. This may take longer if this is during August or the Christmas period, or if married with a family, they may also be governed by their children's schooling.
I have been aware of an episcopalian church the other side of the pond a few months ago, when the out-going rector had his farewell one day and the in-coming rector took over the day after. Thus; there was no vacancy period and things must be different over there.
Posted by Ashworth (# 12645) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Our neighbouring parish (two-and-half times the population of ours, but with a almost equally high level of deprivation, according to the Church Urban Fund index) is now in interregnum, but has, thanks be to God, been provided with an Interim Minister, who is also a part-time Chaplain in a secular field.
The parish in question is blessed with an active lay ministry team of Readers, Pastoral Assistants, and an Evangelist, to help deal with the large numbers of Baptisms and Weddings etc., so there is no question of the Interim Minister having to do everything himself. The post of Priest-in-Charge is currently advertised, but IMNSHO it will take a while to fill......and then only by someone who is looking for a challenge....
Ian J.
We are currently just beginning our 4th year of interregnum and I don't feel that we are really any closer to getting a new priest than we were 3 years ago. We are also supposedly in an area of high level deprivation and certainly do have the highest levels of deprivation within our deanery.
Our churchwardens, throughout the interregnum have taken charge of booking priests to cover both Sunday and midweek services. We have been fortunate in having a team of 5 retired priests, of our tradition living within 10 miles, who on a rota basis have been covering our services, but as each year goes by they are not getting any younger. They are doing a fantastic job of maintaining the worship and after an initial decline in attendance numbers are slowly creeping back up again. However, it is the physical presence of a priest living in the vicarage and being seen and known round and about the parish in the shops, schools, community centres throughout the week that is really needed in our type of community.
Although a small town, with high levels of deprivation, just on the edge of a large city, our parish population of only about 6,000 people, and a small financially poor congregation, does not make us viable to have a priest of our own. We are an anglo-catholic parish surrounded by evangelical and middle of the road parishes, so there is no-one who we could naturally be joined with to share a priest. The diocese and deanery have decided that we should remain on our own with the appointment of a house for duty priest. However, getting someone to take on this job in what is a challenging parish is not going to be easy. So many churches are currently seeking house for duty priests and so it will take a very dedicated person to take on a urban parish like ours when smaller, more attractive, country parishes are also advertising for the same thing.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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We are currently in an Interregnum. Although I haven't noticed anyone actually leaving, some people who got on particularly well with the previous incumbent seem to come less frequently. However, I have also noticed some other people, who didn't get on so well with the previous incumbent, have now started to try out the church again with a view to re-joining or becoming more regular.
We have been very fortunate in having an extremely hardworking team of assistant (mostly retired) clergy, readers and laity to keep the show on the road, although everyone is pretty tired now - if the interregnum continued for too much longer then the wheels might start to come off. Fortunately, we have heard that it will be over soon. The new incumbent will have inherited a strong, but flagging, team to assist him in settling in and taking the church forward, which is as good an outcome as we could have hoped for.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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Another 'him', I notice!
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Well, it is a "him" - the appointment has been made.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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My previous church had been over 4 years in vacancy when I arrived.
The good thing was that the vacancy was so long that they didn't know what it was to have a full time minister.
The bad thing was that the vacancy was so long that they didn't know what it was to have a full time minister.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashworth:
The diocese and deanery have decided that we should remain on our own with the appointment of a house for duty priest. However, getting someone to take on this job in what is a challenging parish is not going to be easy. So many churches are currently seeking house for duty priests and so it will take a very dedicated person to take on a urban parish like ours when smaller, more attractive, country parishes are also advertising for the same thing.
What is a house for duty priest?
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
What is a house for duty priest?
In theory, a priest who's permitted to live rent-free in the vicarage while performing minimal (mainly liturgical) duties for the parish. In practice, a priest who's permitted to live rent-free in the vicarage while the parish make all the demands they like of him/her up to the limit of his/her goodwill.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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In other words, it can be "getting a Vicar on the cheap" - it sounds to me as if a "House for Duty" is open to all kinds of abuse and pressure unless said Vicar is a person who is prepared to say "no" and defend their decision.
Speaking more generally, while I do think that "bi-vocational" or "tent-making" ministries will become increasingly common in the future, parishes must learn that this will inevitably mean changes to the patterns of ministry that can be offered.
Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If it was up to me, I'd go with the United Methodist system in a heartbeat.
The grass ain't always greener.
The drawbacks to our system include bishops and district superintendents misunderstanding or flat ignoring pastors' gifts and preferences, from worship style to personality to the ability to work through deep-seated congregational conflict and beyond. The corollary to that is bishops and district superintendents misunderstanding or flat ignoring what the church needs in a pastor, in the same ways. My district has over 100 churches and I'm an hour from the district office, and the only time he or she appears is when we have an awful fight or when I specifically request their presence. It's difficult to know the situation on the ground when you're not there to observe it, and small parishes like mine get lost in the shuffle. So the wrong pastors get appointed to the wrong churches and then get blamed when it doesn't go well.
Other challenges include a cookie-cutter approach to appointments, pastors' kids that go to three different high schools, and the idea among the more obstinate laity that they can outlast even the most determined pastor since he'll be gone in a year or two.
I like the idea of a church having to sit down and actually declare what they want in a pastor, and then calling people who fit that description. And if what they want is unattainable or unreasonable, the bishop can sit down with them and help them see what they need to change.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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'House for Duty' usually means that a small parish will get a priest, where normally they wouldn't get one at all (or have to share with many other parishes) - so that can be a huge benefit.
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
In other words, it can be "getting a Vicar on the cheap" - it sounds to me as if a "House for Duty" is open to all kinds of abuse and pressure unless said Vicar is a person who is prepared to say "no" and defend their decision.
I think that this is far too simplistic.
With the right conditions, HfD appointments can work well for all concerned. The parish(es) get a priest living in the area, who can take services and lead what are by definition small congregations. The priest (usually newly retired) gets a chance to unwind slowly from active ministry, rather than just stop dead (and then suddenly drop down dead!). They get to live in an attractive rural area, usually, and can put off the worries of finding a retirement home for a few years.
BUT...
There does need to be clear understanding about what is and is not expected. Sometimes, you get parishes who see HfD as getting a freebie full-time vicar, and that can cause problems. But most HfD parishes know the ropes these days.
But given that there are so many rural HfD appointments, I can certainly see that it may be hard (though not impossible) to attract someone to an urban HfD post.
(If I had stayed in the UK, I would have seriously considered a HfD post when I retired.)
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