Ship of Fools: Length of Funerals

Thread: Length of Funerals Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

This is in no way a criticism of a sister church's funeral service traditions but I'd like to discuss the time taken in funeral services, inspired by this comment on another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Since our funerals run to over an hour, and the Liturgy is already something between an hour and 90 minutes depending on incidentals and how many people are taking communion, and is often preceded with Matins which is a good 45 minutes to an hour anyway, I don't think the funeral during regular Sunday services is going to fly.

That said the last funeral I went to (two days ago) was preceded by Liturgy (but not by Matins). Then again it was for a priest, which adds another half hour anyway. So, yeah, it was about three hours. But for us that's almost nothing.

I fully appreciate and understand that liturgy needs time to unfold and say what it needs to say and achieve.

Can I first ask about the pastoral implications of such a long liturgy for infrequent churchgoers, what other church's do - I've never been to a funeral in another denomination, and what would someone from a highly liturgical tradition do if the family requested a funeral service that was only held at the crematorium where a single slot lasts 20 minutes and a double slot would be 40 minutes.

Is there an optimum time to make it a satisfying experience for the bereaved?

I am conducting a non-liturgical funeral today that will last 30 minutes at the Salvation Army hall, will include 2 hymns and 2 Bible readings chosen by the deceased, and then will be followed by committal at the crematorium that will last 5 minutes, and will include another hymn, again, chosen by the deceased.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

AIUI Orthodoxy does not permit cremation.

In my experience attending Orthodox services, they are longer than non-Orthodox service. However, this is balanced by the expectation that no one needs to stay in one spot for the whole thing. People come and go, go out for a smoke and come back, go out and chat and return. This fluid approach means the length of the service is more bearable for those present.

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

The length of a funeral service depends on the type of service asked for:

In the Anglo-Catholic tradition, Requiem Mass lasts about an hour (same time as regular Sunday morning Mass); a funeral liturgy without Mass but with hymns lasts about an hour, while one without hymns lasts about 30 minutes (both include time for the 'family reflection' as well as the sermon proper). It has become increasingly popular for the committal to be done at the end of the service and then the body is taken to the cemetery/crematorium, either accompanied or not.

At crematoriums the time given for each funeral is about 45 minutes (thank heavens not the 20 minutes as mentioned in the OP) - this gives time for gathering, celebrating and committing/ farewell. If there isn't a service to immediately follow on the management doesn't mind if you service runs a bit over the 45 minutes.

Hope this helps.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

In the UK the time given at a crem varies enormously - I guess dpending on the demand made on them by the population. In my previous appointment there were two crematorium chapels side by side - one had services on the hour and the half hour, the other had services on the quarter hours; each funeral service was to be within that 30 minute slot and included the time to process in and then shuffle out again. Where I am now, there is a new crematorium and every funeral is a 1 hour slot. Even a committal following a church service elsewhere, is allowed 1 hour even though a committal can take just a few minutes.

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :

The funerals at the crematorium might have a 1 hour slot, but in practice the service can be only half an hour long. So if the funeral is at 12 noon, people start arriving at 11.45am. The service starts at 12 noon on the dot, and has to be finished by 12.30pm. That gives fifteen minutes for the chief mourners to greet people at the door, etc, and the whole thing should be cleared out by 12.45pm so that the next funeral can start arriving.

My local crematorium has a long and rather tense notice full of advice for celebrants who may find the service overrunning, perhaps because a family member has gone on a bit. This includes singing only the first and last verse of a hymn, or cutting the prayers short.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Except under unusual circumstances, Orthodox funerals are conducted at church. The body is then removed to the graveside for a brief interment ceremony (extremely brief by Orthodox standards). I begin to wonder if we're a little old-fashioned that way?

As was mentioned, we do not do cremation -- unless it is legally required (which I believe it is in Japan but I may be misremembering).

As an aside, as my parents' friends start dying off, I find myself attending a lot of memorial services, mostly in churches but sometimes at funeral homes -- but not a lot of funerals. Is that a transpond thing? Or are funerals kind of dying away generally (NPI) to be replaced by memorial services in this modern age?

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

I once did a funeral at a crem which allowed 40 mins for a funeral. The son's tribute to his father took 32 mins. The remaining 8 mins were mine to do do a bilingual IWelsh/English) funeral Office. Not fun!

I can do a reverent decent funeral service at a crem in 33 mins, with a sermon and hymn included. Overlong funerals, especially for a congregation of fringers, are torture.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

Funeral Mass is about an hour, plus however long the committal takes (the actual service is only about 5 minutes), but the procession to the cemetery normally takes quite a bit longer. The committal is really part of the service. The Funeral Mass doesn't end with a final blessing and dismissal, but with an invitation to the cemetery. The final blessing and dismissal happen there.

I've never done a service at a crematorium. I don't know of any that offer that round here. What's much more common is funeral home services. They don't generally give us a time limit, but I'm normally done in 20-25 minutes or so.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Most of the crematorium chapels that I have known have two doors, entrance and exit (for the living; there is another one for the corpse, naturally). This means that the congregation can gather outside during the preceding funeral, and the farewells afterwards need not be rushed. Having rarely been faced with articulate or confident family members wishing to give long tributes, I've always found that the 30 minutes allowed was plenty, unless the previous funeral overran because of verbosity or late running (which in urban areas with unpredictable traffic is always possible.)

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

African Caribbean funerals tend to be long, often well over an hour. Usually there are quite a few tributes, although they can be a bit repetitive.

The time spent at the graveside can also be quite long, as there will be singing, and sometimes male mourners will participate in filling the grave. Cremations are very rare.

The third part will involve the meal after the burial. People are expected to stay quite a while, reminiscing and catching up with old friends and family members.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

A full-on Requiem lasts about an hour and a half the way we do it : Burial Office followed by Mass of Requiem, then Absolution of the Dead, sermon at the end.

Then of course there's the committal service, which may or may not be on the same day.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

A full-scale funeral in church (as opposed to in the crem), if it consists of a fully celebrated Mass/Eucharist with the full works, can last 1-1/2 to two hours. Over the years, I have been to several of those. But I am slow to recall whether I have been to a funeral lasting three hours or more.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I'm going to a funeral next week which is split into three. It would be excessively long otherwise.

1) a private service at the crematiorium

2) an organ recital followed by a memorial service

3) a requiem mass on the following Sunday

Perhaps this is the answer for overlong services - to hold them in several sections, not necessarily all on the same day. People can then go to all, or just one, depending on how they feel.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'm going to a funeral next week which is split into three. It would be excessively long otherwise.

1) a private service at the crematiorium

2) an organ recital followed by a memorial service

3) a requiem mass on the following Sunday

Perhaps this is the answer for overlong services - to hold them in several sections, not necessarily all on the same day. People can then go to all, or just one, depending on how they feel.

I think this is a very sensible solution, not least because it is helpful in cases where the deceased's family is of a different or no religious tradition - they can attend a secular crematorium service, but the deceased's church can still honour them in their own tradition.

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'm going to a funeral next week which is split into three. It would be excessively long otherwise.

1) a private service at the crematiorium

2) an organ recital followed by a memorial service

3) a requiem mass on the following Sunday

Perhaps this is the answer for overlong services - to hold them in several sections, not necessarily all on the same day. People can then go to all, or just one, depending on how they feel.

This sounds lovely. But for the minister to prepare, a funeral takes at least a day's worth of time all told: meeting the family, liaising with the undertakers, writing the service (usually including the tribute), and conducting the funeral itself, followed by the 'funeral tea', to which the minister is always invited and which I try to attend. Get more than one of these a week, and you have a burned-out minister. And then to require three services ...

That sounds you hear is me weeping into my pillow.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

Pond difference: I've never heard of a funeral at a crematorium on this side of the Atlantic. A crematorium is a place where bodies go to be cremated and ashes produced. What happens before cremation, and what happens to ashes after, is nothing to do with the building where the cremation occurs.

John

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I've only attended one Orthodox funeral, which took place after the Liturgy of the Day, which I didn't attend. It was the briefest Orthodox service I've ever attended (ie 40 mins or so). The coffin of course was open.

I do think it is iffy having a private cremation prior to a "funeral" service without the body present, although death is so dreadful to cope with maybe that's all the close family can cope with. But it strikes me as avoiding reality and making future distress greater.

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

quote:
posted by Pomona:

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'm going to a funeral next week which is split into three. It would be excessively long otherwise.

1) a private service at the crematorium

2) an organ recital followed by a memorial service

3) a requiem mass on the following Sunday

Perhaps this is the answer for overlong services - to hold them in several sections, not necessarily all on the same day. People can then go to all, or just one, depending on how they feel.
I think this is a very sensible solution, not least because it is helpful in cases where the deceased's family is of a different or no religious tradition - they can attend a secular crematorium service, but the deceased's church can still honour them in their own tradition.

and also, expressing my sentiment, though oonnected with Pomona's post...

quote:
posted by cottontail:
That sound you hear is me weeping into my pillow.

I'm also weeping into my pillow, though for different reasons, more closely related to Pomona's post. I am, you might say, the white sheep of my family. Whilst a non-religious crematorium service is almost certainly more in keeping with (most of) the rest of my family's world view, I really, really hate the idea of my mortal remains being sent off to be burned without prayer or committal to God. Even if my faith community are going to hold a requiem mass (or indeed any other Christian liturgy/ceremony of any other type) later. Burn me today, but pray for me afterwards just doesn't seem right. I want you to commit my mortal remains and my soul to God.

But then I suppose it comes down to the question: who is the funeral for? My family (agnostic and/or atheist for the most part) or my friends who love and know me best (mostly Christian)? Or for me, and my preferences, which of course could be deemed selfish?

[ 28. January 2015, 22:52: Message edited by: kingsfold ]

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:

quote:
posted by Pomona:

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'm going to a funeral next week which is split into three. It would be excessively long otherwise.

1) a private service at the crematorium

2) an organ recital followed by a memorial service

3) a requiem mass on the following Sunday

Perhaps this is the answer for overlong services - to hold them in several sections, not necessarily all on the same day. People can then go to all, or just one, depending on how they feel.
I think this is a very sensible solution, not least because it is helpful in cases where the deceased's family is of a different or no religious tradition - they can attend a secular crematorium service, but the deceased's church can still honour them in their own tradition.
and also, expressing my sentiment, though oonnected with Pomona's post...

quote:
posted by cottontail:
That sound you hear is me weeping into my pillow.
I'm also weeping into my pillow, though for different reasons, more closely related to Pomona's post. I am, you might say, the white sheep of my family. Whilst a non-religious crematorium service is almost certainly more in keeping with (most of) the rest of my family's world view, I really, really hate the idea of my mortal remains being sent off to be burned without prayer or committal to God. Even if my faith community are going to hold a requiem mass (or indeed any other Christian liturgy/ceremony of any other type) later. Burn me today, but pray for me afterwards just doesn't seem right. I want you to commit my mortal remains and my soul to God.

I agree totally. Could you write this into your will?

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:

I agree totally. Could you write this into your will?

Don't put funeral requests in your will. Wills often don't get read till after the funeral.

Make a separate document, label it "Funeral Wishes" or something similar, and make sure your family knows where to find it. (Perhaps you keep it with your will.)

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

At my church we have several priests. The main guy is wonderful, a solid and intelligent preacher. #2 is a slave to power point and tends to preach homilies analyzing pop songs or current movies. I can't control which guy will preside over my funeral, but I am tempted to make a list just in case it's priest #2. He will be strictly forbidden to refer to any of the below at my obsequies:
movies
pop music
advertisements
fashion, especially writings on tee shirts or hats
sports
music lyrics
music videos
video games
As a great concession I will allow him to refer to literature.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
African Caribbean funerals tend to be long, often well over an hour. Usually there are quite a few tributes, although they can be a bit repetitive.

The time spent at the graveside can also be quite long, as there will be singing, and sometimes male mourners will participate in filling the grave. Cremations are very rare.

The third part will involve the meal after the burial. People are expected to stay quite a while, reminiscing and catching up with old friends and family members.

With the exception of the male mourners filling the grave this sounds exactly like every Filipino funeral I have ever attended.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Pond difference: I've never heard of a funeral at a crematorium on this side of the Atlantic. A crematorium is a place where bodies go to be cremated and ashes produced. What happens before cremation, and what happens to ashes after, is nothing to do with the building where the cremation occurs.

John

Yep. A crematorium in the UK, and over here in Australia, is typically a site complex including one or more chapels for funeral services, the cremation facilities themselves, and various facilities for scattering, interment or entombing of the ashes. It may be part of a site that also includes cemetery plots for burial, or entirely separate.

Over the road from my office is Gungahlin Cemetery. Opposite the entrance to the cemetery is the entrance to Norwood Park Crematorium. If you look from above using Google Maps, you'll see that the Crem has a complex of buildings where the funeral services are held and coffins disappear (they drop down rather than behind a curtain) if that is wanted. The cemetery doesn't, I believe, have a chapel-type facility, which is a difference from a lot of UK cemeteries that I recall.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I do think it is iffy having a private cremation prior to a "funeral" service without the body present, although death is so dreadful to cope with maybe that's all the close family can cope with. But it strikes me as avoiding reality and making future distress greater.

Humans have been coping with death for a million years. What is it about 21st century first-world humans that we're such pussies?

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Pond difference: I've never heard of a funeral at a crematorium on this side of the Atlantic. A crematorium is a place where bodies go to be cremated and ashes produced. What happens before cremation, and what happens to ashes after, is nothing to do with the building where the cremation occurs.

John

THIS is the crematorium where I conducted the committal yesterday. Usually people will have the entire service here. There is an organ and service books that have been produced by a joint liturgical committee that also contains a selection of hymns.

It's quite a lovely place really.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our local crem has two chapels, with services at 00 and 30 in one, and 15 and 45 in the other.....a more recently-built crem, some miles away, allows an hourly slot (presumably until business demands differently!).

Spare a thought and a prayer for those conducting funerals (especially if they are Christian funerals), when there is so little time to proclaim the (Christian) message of hope......

.....and I simply can't see the point of humanist or secular funerals, except that I suppose it gives the opportunity to say 'That's it - s/he loved her/his kids/grandkids/pets - so now we say ta-ta.......'

Ian J.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
I'm also weeping into my pillow, though for different reasons, more closely related to Pomona's post. I am, you might say, the white sheep of my family. Whilst a non-religious crematorium service is almost certainly more in keeping with (most of) the rest of my family's world view, I really, really hate the idea of my mortal remains being sent off to be burned without prayer or committal to God. Even if my faith community are going to hold a requiem mass (or indeed any other Christian liturgy/ceremony of any other type) later. Burn me today, but pray for me afterwards just doesn't seem right. I want you to commit my mortal remains and my soul to God.

But then I suppose it comes down to the question: who is the funeral for? My family (agnostic and/or atheist for the most part) or my friends who love and know me best (mostly Christian)? Or for me, and my preferences, which of course could be deemed selfish?

The funeral is for both the deceased and for those who grieve imv. I too am the odd one out, and it probably goes against all the theology of my faith, but I've told them that I'll haunt them if they don't give me a Christian funeral. They believe in the existence of ghosts more than they do of God.

I'm happy if it's a short funeral, I don't mind if they don't sing, and they can include some of the poems doing the rounds if they really want to, but I too would like prayers and committal to God, please, and a burial afterwards rather than a cremation. And perhaps Bob Dylan's 'Ev'ry Grain of Sand' somewhere in the mix. But then it wouldn't be short..... :-)

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I've only attended one Orthodox funeral, which took place after the Liturgy of the Day, which I didn't attend. It was the briefest Orthodox service I've ever attended (ie 40 mins or so). The coffin of course was open.

I do think it is iffy having a private cremation prior to a "funeral" service without the body present, although death is so dreadful to cope with maybe that's all the close family can cope with. But it strikes me as avoiding reality and making future distress greater.

I've attended several funerals (RC, Anglican, Presbyterian) where the ashes were present and not the body. There were a number of reasons for this, including difficulty of bringing the family together more quickly (when they are scattered over the continent), deceased's wishes, or the deceased had willed their body for medical study.

Bishop's Finger posted a thought about humanist/ secular funerals. I've been at several of these -- I find them a bit depressing and I think might possibly be more on the traumatic side for children, but I will leave them to comment for themselves on that one. I try to keep in mind that funeral rites might well be the oldest common human activity that we know about-- archaeologists and anthropologists speculate that this might be so on the basis of what appears to be the careful placement of bodies and goods. The secular funeral is perhaps an attempt to do this.

As a bit of anecdotology, the militant (ex-RC) atheist uncle of a friend made it clear that he wanted no funeral observance of any sort as he felt that they became religious in practice, no matter the intent. The family obeyed him in the letter, but not in the spirit, and they had a string quartet playing as his ashes went into a river.

Posted by To The Pain (# 12235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I've only attended one Orthodox funeral, which took place after the Liturgy of the Day, which I didn't attend. It was the briefest Orthodox service I've ever attended (ie 40 mins or so). The coffin of course was open.

I do think it is iffy having a private cremation prior to a "funeral" service without the body present, although death is so dreadful to cope with maybe that's all the close family can cope with. But it strikes me as avoiding reality and making future distress greater.
I've attended several funerals (RC, Anglican, Presbyterian) where the ashes were present and not the body. There were a number of reasons for this, including difficulty of bringing the family together more quickly (when they are scattered over the continent), deceased's wishes, or the deceased had willed their body for medical study.

Both my paternal grandparents had 'backwards' services - committal at the crem (I think one hymn and the short committal service) followed by service at the church and a funeral tea. Doing things the wrong way around gave us the freedom to wait 15 minutes for the pianist to arrive without worrying about making the crem slot and my grandparents' elderly friends could come to just the service and have a short walk over to the tea in the hall rather than waiting around for the committal to take place 7 miles away.

Relieving the logistical concerns meant that we could take as much time as we wanted and no-one was stressed out at the thought of getting to the crem. That might be less of a concern outside of the Southeast of England, where crem slots are 20mins (once you've got one, usually at least 2 weeks after the death has occurred) and traffic can be mental.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Growing length in kiwiland, as we have increasingly adopted the Mäori practice of eulogy after eulogy after ... ZZZZzzzzz

When I was first ordained some funeral chapel "services" were around 15 minutes! But I rarely do any these days, as the celebrants have taken over.

Requiems are rare in NZ Anglican circles.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Eulogies, or what is increasingly called "a tribute to <name>", are after the funeral in the diocese here, by bishop decision. I think this is both fine and appropriate. The funerals with communion are close to 90 mins, the ones without maybe less than a hour.

As for not having the body in the church, a cremation costs $900 to 1500. Getting the body to the church will double that for sure. It is becoming more frequent that the family arranges the pick-up of the body from hospital or home, picks up the ashes and takes them personally to the church (or other hall etc, if non-religious). Burial is much more expensive, with the costs of the plot, digging, stone etc, usually making the cost 8 to $12000. Funeral homes generally have a menu with the list of the various main courses and side orders here.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The ashes being present is fine. What I've experienced is the body safely out of the way, so in the church we had the Celebration of the Life with about four eulogies.

The deceased was about my age and his mother was principal mourner. If that's all she could cope with, who am I to criticise? But I have my serious doubts.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The ashes being present is fine. What I've experienced is the body safely out of the way, so in the church we had the Celebration of the Life with about four eulogies.

The deceased was about my age and his mother was principal mourner. If that's all she could cope with, who am I to criticise? But I have my serious doubts.

Agree with your concern. Four eulogies! [Ultra confused]

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

I too have a largely non-religious family, which is why the two separate funerals (or rather a secular cremation and then a religious funeral service) makes sense to me. I suppose it's much like having two wedding ceremonies, one civil and one religious, as often happens in continental Europe. That said, I am young enough for my family to mostly be older than me, so my family by the time I am nearer death may be more comfortable with a religious funeral.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

If you are a Christian but some of your relatives are ambivalent or worse about faith, I don't see any reason why you should feel you have to accommodate them by toning down the Christian aspect of your obsequies. After all, it's your death, you that are being laid to rest, and your funeral, not theirs.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I would like to reassure Cottontail that the memorial service, referred to in my post above, is taking place in a different church (and therefore the responsibility of a different vicar) than the Requiem Mass. This is due to the deceased having very strong connections, over time, with both churches. The arrangements do not therefore put too much strain on only one person, as it might have appeared from my initial post.

I should think that such extensive arrangements are only likely to take place on a rare number of occasions and usually for very specific and special reasons.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If you are a Christian but some of your relatives are ambivalent or worse about faith, I don't see any reason why you should feel you have to accommodate them by toning down the Christian aspect of your obsequies. After all, it's your death, you that are being laid to rest, and your funeral, not theirs.

But when you die, they're the ones who'll be arranging the funeral....

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

That's why we encourage people to arrange their own funerals. Ideally, all the family should have to do is pick a date. I wasn't directly involved, but our pastor worked together with a local funeral home to do a presentation to parishioners (with dinner served!) on how to do this. I've had one person ask my permission to put me presiding in his funeral instructions, and there may be more who have done so without asking me for all I know.

It takes a great burden off the family and ensures that you'll have a send off you consider fitting. This is also a great reassurance to most families. I've worked with a lot of non-religious families who want to do what granny would have wanted, but don't even know how to articulate that.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Tangent - the last (of two) Humanist lead funerals I went to was admirable. The Humanist guy made a point of having a period of silence in which those of us who wanted to pray, could. And the taped music was mainly religious.

My reading from Tristram Shandy, a favourite of the deceased, wasn't.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If you are a Christian but some of your relatives are ambivalent or worse about faith, I don't see any reason why you should feel you have to accommodate them by toning down the Christian aspect of your obsequies. After all, it's your death, you that are being laid to rest, and your funeral, not theirs.

Quite. They should accommodate you, not you them. And anyway, what does faith have to do with whether or not you have a Christian funeral anyway (in Britain, and assuming you're not positively a member of another faith)? It is a matter of, as Martin Rees the Astronomer Royal (I think an agnostic) put it, the custom of the tribe. And if George Orwell could stipulate that his funeral be according to the rites of the Church of England that should be good enough for anybody.

That said, the only non-religious funeral I have ever been to was of a friend of my father's whom I admired enormously and who was a thoroughly good man. Non-religious because, I think, he did not want to pretend to be something that he was not. I can respect that honesty.

[ 30. January 2015, 10:16: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Because I know quite a lot of people who have them, I've been to quite a lot of secular funerals. Understandably, since they only look back and have nothing to look forward to, they feel a bit empty. Nevertheless, churches could learn from them and should take account of some of the things they do - those churches especially which are stuffy about eulogies.

If there's time, the new CofE format with a separate section at the beginning for eulogies, poems etc and then a short sermon towards the end, has a lot going for it. And if the whole thing is not to feel like a quick disposal down a rubbish chute, there's also a lot to be said for having a fairly spacious funeral in church in your own time, followed by a brief separate committal at the crem. That is a bit difficult though if one is 20 miles from the nearest one. Since death is a universal experience and happens regularly, it should at least be a duty on every district council, and especially those with less populated districts, to provide at least one in their own area.

Of those many, I've been to two secular funerals which I thought contained elements that were seriously inappropriate tending to bad. What was wrong, though, wasn't perpetrated by the secular celebrant, so much as whether they perhaps should have persuaded the family not to do what in each case they did.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Tangent - the last (of two) Humanist lead funerals I went to was admirable. The Humanist guy made a point of having a period of silence in which those of us who wanted to pray, could. And the taped music was mainly religious.

My reading from Tristram Shandy, a favourite of the deceased, wasn't.

I have attended 2 humanist funerals. One in Glasgow and the other in Blackpool.

The first was the sister of my mother in law and there were a lot of people there in the crem. At risk of becoming a Mystery Worshipper, one thing really struck me: there was a large stained glass 'window' that depicted Christ, facing the congregation. It didn't let in any outside light and would have been backlit. It was, however, unilluminated for this service - which was actually quite symbolic.

The service was friendly, gentle, sympathetic, and led by a lady officiant (?) who was very good; though she seemed to be speaking from a clipboard which rather gave an sense of management and lecturer combined.

Tributes / memories were led by work colleagues and family. They said lovely things and raised some laughter but something troubled me:

It was the unrelieved, unremitting hopelessness of it all.
There was no hope, no assurance. It was like being in a room with the windows closed - claustrophobic, trapped.

The fact that Christ was unilluminated was a silent reminder that he had been shut out and the result was deep and desperate despair. That and the lack of opportunity for even a moment's silence in order for some who wished to, to pray.

The second humanist service I attended was led by a friend of the deceased, my uncle. He led it with slightly less formality than the former service, and that led my in some moments to wonder whether this was just a bloke doing a favour!
Anyway, he did allow a time for those who were religious to have a time for prayer. He announced that while we sat in quietness, meditation or prayer, some music would play; whereupon immediately, the voice of Elvis boomed out singing Love Me Tender. No chance to pray there then...

Secular services may well be honest but they can never provide that 'open window' of hope.

When you are dead, you are dead they proclaim. All over. All done. Please leave by the side door.

Horrible.

[ 30. January 2015, 13:11: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

What has struck me at the humanist funerals I've attended is the "That's all folks" touch. In particular, I've found the exhortation "Those of you who're religious can pray now if you wish" less than welcoming or helpful.

But the over-riding feel has been of bleakness, a lack of comfort.

It may be something to do with the surroundings because I've found humanist weddings similarly cheerless.

Whatever: IMO no funeral should last so long that people are looking at their wristwatches - so partly that means good forward planning if there is to be a cremation straight after, but also that people delivering a panegyric keep it to the point at are given a time limit.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If you are a Christian but some of your relatives are ambivalent or worse about faith, I don't see any reason why you should feel you have to accommodate them by toning down the Christian aspect of your obsequies. After all, it's your death, you that are being laid to rest, and your funeral, not theirs.
Quite. They should accommodate you, not you them. And anyway, what does faith have to do with whether or not you have a Christian funeral anyway (in Britain, and assuming you're not positively a member of another faith)? It is a matter of, as Martin Rees the Astronomer Royal (I think an agnostic) put it, the custom of the tribe. And if George Orwell could stipulate that his funeral be according to the rites of the Church of England that should be good enough for anybody.

That said, the only non-religious funeral I have ever been to was of a friend of my father's whom I admired enormously and who was a thoroughly good man. Non-religious because, I think, he did not want to pretend to be something that he was not. I can respect that honesty.

Other people's discomfort with a church service I had arranged would make me feel anxious and uncomfortable (and I have a social anxiety disorder so anxious in that sense). Most of my family are either non-religious or RC and would feel uncomfortable receiving at a Eucharistic service. Also a requiem mass is not quite the average CoE funeral.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Secular services may well be honest but they can never provide that 'open window' of hope.

When you are dead, you are dead they proclaim. All over. All done. Please leave by the side door.

Horrible.

While I agree, may I make two points.

1. You are seeing this from the POV of a person of faith. Secularists may have had completely different responses to the services.

2. These services do at least acknowledge the reality of death. I have been at some Christian services which have been so overwhelmingly positive and full of assurances of the resurrection that I almost wanted to shout out, "Hey, guys, he is dead you know!" I feel that services of that kind do not help the grieving process and may even hinder it.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

There are not particularly religious people today who demand that their funeral be a totally joyful occasion, full of bright clothes, lively music and jokes. Their friends and relatives try to honour their wishes. So if the deceased was a person who'd had overwhelming faith in the reality of their forthcoming resurrection then why shouldn't they have the kind of positive funeral that reflected that?

My fear would be that not many of us have that level of pure conviction, and so such a funeral might feel dishonest. It might come across as a cookie cutter event, designed to make everyone feel better but without giving much sense of the spiritual life of the person who'd died.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Also a requiem mass is not quite the average CoE funeral.

But if ken could have a Holy Communion service for his funeral.....

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

I guess I haven't been to many CofE funerals, but a decent proportion of the ones I have been to have been eucharistic.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
2. These services do at least acknowledge the reality of death. I have been at some Christian services which have been so overwhelmingly positive and full of assurances of the resurrection that I almost wanted to shout out, "Hey, guys, he is dead you know!" I feel that services of that kind do not help the grieving process and may even hinder it.

Quite. My concern about secular Celebrations of the Life (and most church funerals I have been to lately fall into the same camp) is precisely that they completely lack the element of mourning, which is what a funeral is, among other things.

Surely you can only be totally hopeful at a funeral if you are a total universalist?

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I think that to hope for eternal life with God for everyone who dies is far better than imagining misery in hell for those who didn't show any sign of embracing God when alive, apart from the love they demonstrated. This both causes us to grieve and gives us hope, as God is love and those who live in love live in God.

And so the funeral needs a structure imv, and a natural leading from the celebration of who the deceased was with eulogy, poem and/or other reading meaningful to those who mourn, to the prayerful and powerful handing over of the deceased into the merciful love of Almighty God. The 'letting go' this helps with is an important element of the funeral. Whatever the length of the funeral, without this flow it seems unsatisfactory.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are not particularly religious people today who demand that their funeral be a totally joyful occasion, full of bright clothes, lively music and jokes. Their friends and relatives try to honour their wishes. ...

Thank you Svetlana for that. I've encountered this too, several times, and the way you've expressed it has crystallised for me why I don't think it works and why it's always left me uneasy.

Broadly, without a lively hope in the Resurrection, a funeral is not a joyful occasion. Trying to persuade one another it is because the deceased has left the message that he or she doesn't want us to be miserable, is not only a lie. It's also telling us what someone else thinks we should feel, and not allowing us to feel what we actually do feel.

Even at a Christian funeral of someone who has achieved a fulness of years and has possibly borne sickness and pain, we're still sad that they've gone. We'd rather have them here, full of life and vigour.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I've spent the best part of 2 days with an old friend helping her with planning her father's funeral.

She's one of four: all broadly unchurched, although the friend did sing in a church choir up to the age of 14 or so.

Anyway - spent time going through service (as per CofE website planner, etc) - all this with the agreement of the clergyman taking the service because friend, widow and other close relatives all 300 miles away from where service will be. Got it all sorted when BANG: friend's youngest brother comes up with "We thought it would be nice if Phoebe and Hector recited some poems they've written during the service". Left it to friend to point out that since Phoebe and Hector are 5 and 3 years old reading aloud in a strange building to 200+ people may not be within their grasp.

Where do people get these weird ideas from?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

[brick wall]

Comes as no surprise, if I may say so, that the kids are called something like Phoebe and Hector.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The main thing at a funeral is to have a good cry.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

It is right it should be so;
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

(Blake)

The Christian faith is indeed in escatological hope, but Christ only gets to the Resurrection through the cross and passion.

Likewise, we can only know the greatness of Christian hope and joy if we have known desolation first.

Posted by Barnabas Aus (# 15869) on :

Attended the Requiem Mass for a local dignitary on Saturday. After the opening hymn, the priest gave the greeting, which was then followed by three eulogies and a PowerPoint presentation, before the liturgy proper finally got underway about 30 minutes later. Total service length about 1 hour 55 minutes. A couple of the elderly notables present seemed to find this a severe strain on bladder capacity.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Just back from the funeral of one of my aged aunts.

First off was service in church - with tribute delivered by my cousin.

Hymns: Calon Lân, Jerusalem the Golden, The Lord my pasture shall prepare

Service: the Church in Wales funeral, taken in English.

Then off to the crem where the remainder of the service was in Welsh.

Combined time (not including travel between two places) and hour and a half.

Wake that followed mostly taken up with discussion about the likely team for the first of the Six Nations matches.

Posted by bad man (# 17449) on :

On the subject of not getting the funeral you hoped for, I'm irresistibly reminded of Thomas Hardy's poem "The Choirmaster's Burial" or "The Tenor Man's Song", as set to music by Benjamin Britten.

Bad Man: You've quoted a whole lot more than is appropriate for reasons of copyright. I appreciate that the 4-5 line guideline would not be sufficient to make your point in this case, but fortunately you have provided a link that anyone interested can use. I have therefore deleted your quote. Thanks. John Holding - Eccles Host

[ 03. March 2015, 23:59: Message edited by: John Holding ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
Total service length about 1 hour 55 minutes. A couple of the elderly notables present seemed to find this a severe strain on bladder capacity.

Applies to those of us who are not notables, local or otherwise, as well. Even if we're just getting on a bit and not yet at the elderly stage. 75 minutes is plenty long enough for a service allowing all the time needed for everyone to take communion. No eulogy more than 5 minutes, and a grand total limit of 15.

This time last year, we went to the funeral of a man who in his life had given great service to his community and his church. 45 minutes of eulogy from a son, full of fart jokes, did his memory no good at all. A few weeks beforehand, another funeral, another man who had given great service to his and a wider community and to his church. A full requiem; even with a congregation of close on 300, most taking communion, it took 75 minutes including a couple of heartfelt eulogies from his children. Both services straight APBA

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bad man:
On the subject of not getting the funeral you hoped for, I'm irresistibly reminded of Thomas Hardy's poem "The Choirmaster's Burial" or "The Tenor Man's Song", as set to music by Benjamin Britten.

Great composer though Britten might be, that's a bizarrely inapposite setting for a poem about a pre-Oxford movement village musician.

This should take you to the tune of Mount Ephraim and this to the words.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

This is Vital Spark and was very popular at funerals in the Hardy era. This particular recording is possibly a bit slow, particularly for modern tastes. Here it is sung in a more familiar style. It's a setting of an ode by Pope. As originally sung, it was exactly the sort of church music Oxford Movement clergy really loathed.

I've long suspected that the famous Clyde puffer was named after this hymn.

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