Ship of Fools: "The Wages of Sin is death." Why?

Thread: "The Wages of Sin is death." Why? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts? When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

As someone has said " We are not punished for our sins. We are punished by our sins".

This alters our perspective.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

God will reveal all, in His good time.

"Revealing all" includes describing to you just what effects your sins had upon you and those around you. This illumination is probably more terrifying than the threat of mere death, since you will feel the need to accept responsibility for all of that baggage.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts? When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?

You and God may forgive me for taking a rock and crowning your noggin. You will still have a busted head, though.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Mere Nick

quote:
You and God may forgive me for taking a rock and crowning your noggin. You will still have a busted head, though.

Good to see that muscular Christianity is still alive and cracking! Thanks for the warning, though,- I'll stay clear of Dixie.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Mere Nick
quote:
You and God may forgive me for taking a rock and crowning your noggin. You will still have a busted head, though.

Good to see that muscular Christianity is still alive and cracking! Thanks for the warning, though,- I'll stay clear of Dixie.

Nah, come on down and have a brew. If I step out of line my wife would put one on me that even bleach couldn't take off.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Yo, Nick! Thy rod and staff will comfort me.

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

What is sin, and what kind of death?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
As someone has said " We are not punished for our sins. We are punished by our sins".

This alters our perspective.

Yes. There are three theories within Christianity of what's wrong w/ humanity or "why we need a Savior"-- one, as the OP suggests, is that God's wrath vs. human sinfulness puts us in danger of eternal punishment, annihilation, or separation. But there are others: Another is that we cannot comprehend, on the deepest level, the reality of God's love. And another is that our sin puts us in bondage-- much as Jesus says in John's gospel. We have, thru our sin, figuratively "sold our soul to the devil"-- placed our trust in something other than God, whether that's pleasure, selfishness, accomplishment, whatever. And ultimately that becomes bondage. I like the analogy of addiction because you can see it so clearly-- the first time the addict takes a hit of whatever substance floats his or her boat, it was a choice. Maybe the 2nd or 3rd or 4th time it was a choice. But at some point (that point depending on the nature of the addictive substance) it's no longer a choice-- you are no longer choosing the drug, the drug is choosing you. It has become your master.

I believe something similar is happening not just with addiction, but with all sin. We begin by choosing the sin-- whether it's a lie, an attitude, bitterness, whatever-- but at some point we no longer choose, it has become so engrained in our character and habits that overcoming it is not unlike overcoming addiction. In some cases this leads to literal death, more often it is a figurative death-- the destruction of relationships, freedom, well-being, whatever.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Dang. I was hoping this thread would address the obvious grammatical error. Wages is plural; 'of sin' is a subordinate clause. Therefore the line should run, "The wages of sin are death."

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Or wages (or wage) is a reward for what we do. So it is with sin.

Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Dang. I was hoping this thread would address the obvious grammatical error. Wages is plural; 'of sin' is a subordinate clause. Therefore the line should run, "The wages of sin are death."

Not according to these 20 or so translations.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

"of sin" is not a clause. It has no predicate. It's a prepositional phrase that is serving as an adjective.

[ 12. November 2014, 02:11: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts?

Yes.

quote:
When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?

And, yes.

Neither of the apparent poles in these two statements is exclusive to the other, though I, myself, incline toward the second of the two in each case.

[ 12. November 2014, 05:03: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

AIUI, wages is about consequences. We work, we get paid (at least in the environment it was written in - they never envisions such an oppressive regime as we have today), you sin, you die.

Of course "die" is not a single event. I think the English translations here are problematic (not saying they are technically wrong, just that they convey slightly different ideas today). As you sin, you die more. As you accept Jesus, you live more.

As you live as a Christian, as you stop sinning, you live more. So we are saved from the spiritual consequences of our sin, as we seek to be less sinful.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts?
Yes.
quote:
When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?
And, yes.

Neither of the apparent poles in these two statements is exclusive to the other, though I, myself, incline toward the second of the two in each case.

Ditto that.

Chanced upon a bit from Wisdom chapter 1 today that I thought might be pertinent.

quote:
Do not invite death by the error of your life,
or bring on destruction by the works of your hands;

13 because God did not make death,
and he does not delight in the death of the living.

14 For he created all things so that they might exist;
the generative forces of the world are wholesome,
and there is no destructive poison in them,
and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.

15 For righteousness is immortal.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

That's a sweet quote, Evensong.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Is this not really a silly trope? Get people scared into surrendering themselves for the persuasive evangelical story that if you don't get that personal relationship conversion blood of the lamb idea as paying for all your sins, God will beat it out of your soul after sorting you out on the train platform with those who go one way getting the good reward, and those going the other, torture and burnt. God's trusty workers will even tear your mother, sister, child or spouse from your arms in the sorting, but because he loves you, kindly not asking you a Sophie's Choice question. God being a mean son of a bitch, but it you got Jesus, he's your mean son of a bitch.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

At the time the AV was produced, "wages" was often treated as a singular noun. There is therefore no mistake.

Similarly, in the UK the choir sing, while here in the USA the choir sings. No grammatical mistakes there, just different conceptions of the noun's number.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts? When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?

Well, the death referred to isn't necessarily physical death. I tend to read it as spiritual death.

Sin is, simply, rebellion against God's commandments. We know better than he does. So sin ineluctably leads to separation from God, a rift in our relationship with him. But as the second part of that passage reads, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"--meaning that we can be forgiven our sins, that the separation from our Creator need not be final.

I suppose if I had to plunk down on one side or the other, I'd say it was God's judgment. That seems most in accord with the revelation of God in Scripture. The second option you give is unsatisfactory to me, not least because it suggests that God doesn't have the right and authority to judge human beings.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
I believe something similar is happening not just with addiction, but with all sin. We begin by choosing the sin-- whether it's a lie, an attitude, bitterness, whatever-- but at some point we no longer choose, it has become so engrained in our character and habits that overcoming it is not unlike overcoming addiction. In some cases this leads to literal death, more often it is a figurative death-- the destruction of relationships, freedom, well-being, whatever.

Cliffdweller says it well. Here seems a good point to apologise to shipmate jbohn (I think) for nicking his sig some time ago - this was such a helpful revelation to me, I thought it good to get it out there whenever I post some forgettable shite or other of my own.

I take Paul's 'sin, when it is full-grown, leads to death' as a good guide for spotting what sin is. Ultimately leads to death? That'll be sin, then. The death comes as part of the deal - you don't get to chop your head off just for the experience, without the old corollary coming along with it. There is no 'why' - it all goes together as some kind of paired thing which exists by definition - someone else, help me put this better - my engineer's head doesn't hold the terms.

Talking of engineering and sin, the 7 deadlies (or Cassian's 8 thoughts) work as a rather nice set of orthogonal basis functions, by which one can decompose some-new-nasty into its familiar-old cardinal components, and thereby skewer it to some degree. A bit like RGB colour decomposition, or the 5 dimensions of (food) taste. But then I think Laplace transforms are rather neat...

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, the death referred to isn't necessarily physical death. I tend to read it as spiritual death.

I tend to read it a physical, but not eternal. The next verse though promises a free gift - new life in Christ Jesus. Without this second point the first part is meaningless.

So the wages of sin makes us no worse off, we die. It isn't God being vindictive, it is the natural order of things. But there is an offer to any who will accept it of new life.

Call me an annihilationist if you like.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Fr Weber

quote:
The second option you give is unsatisfactory to me, not least because it suggests that God doesn't have the right and authority to judge human beings.

I didn't intend to mean that God has no right or authority to judge human beings. What I am suggesting, however, is that God's judgement, because of his nature, is not condemnatory of the sinner, but is a necessary diagnosis opening the possibility of healing and restoration. God's judgement, in other words, is not a death sentence but of hope for a new life. In this sense I agree with Origen that judgement should not be avoided but sought. The wages of sin are not paid by God.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
That's a sweet quote, Evensong.

Sweet? SWEET? [Paranoid]

Is that like in sickly sweet or like awesome sweet? If it was the latter, I thought that was an Australianism!

[ 13. November 2014, 09:19: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

To the OP: Dunno, but the hours are good! [Biased]

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Here seems a good point to apologise to shipmate jbohn (I think) for nicking his sig some time ago - this was such a helpful revelation to me, I thought it good to get it out there whenever I post some forgettable shite or other of my own

That was my reason, more or less, for choosing it in the first place.

It's something I wholly concur with - the damage we do to ourselves (physical/emotional/guilt/etc.) is the real punishment, it seems, for the sins we commit.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

A similar quote, this one from Frederick Buechner:

quote:
“To repent is to come to your senses. It is not so much something you do as something that happens. True repentance spends less time looking at the past and saying, ‘I’m sorry,’ than to the future and saying, ‘Wow!’”

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

jBohn

quote:
....the damage we do to ourselves (physical/emotional/guilt/etc.) is the real punishment, it seems, for the sins we commit.

Thanks for focussing on "punishment". I suppose that's what I'm trying to get at. Does God punish us for our sins? If so, what kind of punishment does he hand out- is it a sliding scale? Does the punishment include "death" in the conventional sense and eternal death in a religious one. When I look at these issues in the gospels there appear to be conflicting messages e.g. in the parable of the Prodigal Son there is no question of punishment on the part of the father, but elsewhere there is "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth", sheep and goats, and a pretty fierce dies irae. I find it difficult to reconcile these strands.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

So I'm up to the end of chapter 3 of Wisdom now and I think it really speaks to this topic. Even has the "wages" idea!

quote:
and they did not know the secret purposes of God,
nor hoped for the wages of holiness ,
nor discerned the prize for blameless souls;

Wonder if Paul got the term from this scripture?

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
When I look at these issues in the gospels there appear to be conflicting messages e.g. in the parable of the Prodigal Son there is no question of punishment on the part of the father

But he had his punishment for his own sins didn't he? Miserable life looking after pigs.

And was there no "eternal" punishment because he returned?

But I take your point. Hard stuff

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

I think Swedenborg had it - we are here to reconnect to God, having disconnected - when spirits face God, they see light, but they also see the spirits/souls who are looking away from God - but the ones looking away only see what they have chosen to look at. Augustine tried to impose heavenly "rules" but only served to confuse, because the "rules" follow from being fully with the light and all actions deriving from that presence/connection. In which case, they are not rules, they are blindingly obvious and anything else feels wrong. The 7 commandments are a baseline - a bit like true Laws of our society. "You have free will, and can look whichever way you desire, and there is always forgiveness, but if you pass this line you are definitely well out of order, buddy, and there will be consequences regardless of forgiveness". I think the deaths are "little" deaths (if "little" is the right word) - they are deaths to Gods presence.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
jBohn
quote:
....the damage we do to ourselves (physical/emotional/guilt/etc.) is the real punishment, it seems, for the sins we commit.
Thanks for focussing on "punishment". I suppose that's what I'm trying to get at. Does God punish us for our sins? If so, what kind of punishment does he hand out- is it a sliding scale? Does the punishment include "death" in the conventional sense and eternal death in a religious one. When I look at these issues in the gospels there appear to be conflicting messages e.g. in the parable of the Prodigal Son there is no question of punishment on the part of the father, but elsewhere there is "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth", sheep and goats, and a pretty fierce dies irae. I find it difficult to reconcile these strands.

I don't see the conflict; the son repents, pre-empting any fatherly punishment. Of course, the son's prior sufferings are caused entirely by his poor choices, and not necessarily by the father's agency, which I think aligns well with what you were getting at earlier.

The goats, and those who wind up in the outer darkness, are unrepentant. I think that's a key point to remember. If the prodigal son had never repented, he'd still be miserably slopping pigs for the Gentiles.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Fr Weber: I don't see the conflict; the son repents, pre-empting any fatherly punishment.

Punishment for what? I don't see the father wanting to punish the son.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

No, we don't. But the father seems perfectly willing to allow the son to suffer the consequences of his decisions.

On the other hand, that's only one parable. We also have the parable of the wicked servant who owes his lord some money, and the lord is preparing to throw him in debtors' prison at the beginning of the story (and indeed, when he learns of the servant's wickedness, hands him over to the tormentors at the end).

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Fr Weber: On the other hand, that's only one parable. We also have the parable of the wicked servant who owes his lord some money, and the lord is preparing to throw him in debtors' prison at the beginning of the story (and indeed, when he learns of the servant's wickedness, hands him over to the tormentors at the end).

Interestingly, that one has to do with money.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

I don't think the reception of the younger son is contingent on the prodigal's repentance because the father makes the first move and is motivated by pity.
But FrWeber is correct to refer to other parables in which there is punishment. ISTM that such parables are not directed against humanity in general but are aimed at the religious leaders who have kept the many apart from God with their heavy burdens. The NT anathemas seem particularly targeted.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts? When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?

There's a lot of metaphors you can read this concept through--the money one, the court one, etc. etc. etc. And here Paul seems to be using the money one, at least for the moment. But the one that works best for me is considering that sin by its very nature cuts me off from the source of life himself, God. If you turn your back on the sun, you get shadows. It's a built-in consequence.

Asking for mercy in that situation is asking God to rescue us from the consequences of our own stupidity. As anyone knows who has ever owned a cat, there are traps you can get into by yourself that you can't get out of by yourself.

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
I don't think the reception of the younger son is contingent on the prodigal's repentance because the father makes the first move and is motivated by pity.
But FrWeber is correct to refer to other parables in which there is punishment. ISTM that such parables are not directed against humanity in general but are aimed at the religious leaders who have kept the many apart from God with their heavy burdens. The NT anathemas seem particularly targeted.

There is a lot of detail in that one parable. Pity is a rather different emotion from compassion or love or happiness or peace after years of patience and waiting. If God pities us, then He pities his own creation. Not sure that works for me personally.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

The parable of the wicked servant is about a person who is forgiven a crushing debt, but who demands that a colleague pay his paltry debt on pain of being thrown into prison.

It's not about religious leaders particularly, more an illustration of "forgive as you hope to be forgiven."

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Fr Weber

quote:
The parable of the wicked servant is about a person who is forgiven a crushing debt, but who demands that a colleague pay his paltry debt on pain of being thrown into prison.

It's not about religious leaders particularly, more an illustration of "forgive as you hope to

Fr Weber, of course you are correct in this instance, though there are parables where the anathema is directed towards religious leaders eg. the parable of the owners of the vineyard and the parable of the talents.

I suppose what I ought to do is go through the gospels identifying those instances where punishment by God is mentioned and then to identify who the objects of condemnation are.

I get the impression that as far as St Paul is concerned the wages of sin are potentially paid out by God to the whole of humanity for its complicity in sin.

I also get the impression that most respondents to this post are reluctant to accept that over and above any negative consequences a sinner might bring upon himself/herself God hands out additional punishment. I, too, tend to lean towards that sentiment, but it is somewhat in defiance of some of the actions and teachings of Jesus. Perhaps the gospels are a problem for systematic theology!

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

I know what my sins have done to me. And others.

Killed. Killed me. Killed innocence. Killed potential.

All will be well.

In Christ.

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