Thread: How important is growth in faith or spirituality? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
Since I came to faith as an adult, I've continued to grow in faith and to grow spiritually. Looking back, I can see that this has only happened because I've been both affirmed and challenged: by God, by the Church, and by my own questioning. All have been disappointing in many ways, but I wonder whether this has been due to my unrealistic expectations.
For me, faith and spirituality have been intertwined. Before coming to faith, I might have described myself as 'spiritual but not religious' but that would have been more about my acknowledgement of a spiritual dimension to my life than any level of spiritual depth.
How important is it to grow, either in faith or in spirituality? Can the two be separated? Are we more likely to fall away from faith or to become less spiritual if we don't grow?
What do you think?
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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I'm not entirely sure it's possible to measure growth at a particular point - even if it may be easier to do so in retrospect.
A lot of the periods in my life in which I felt I 'grew' were actually times when I probably stayed relatively static - and vice versa.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
How important is it to grow, either in faith or in spirituality?
I'm not sure I even know what it means to "grow" in faith or spirituality. I would say that of course, we can't spend our whole lives talking about God as we did when we were kids in Sunday school. But is that growth? To be frank, I'm a little suspicious of the word. It's a bit too modern and Western for my taste.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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Yes, I too can see periods of growth in retrospect which seemed painfully dry at the time, and there can be no 'standard' to measure ourselves by, but there has definitely been growth in strength and depth.
I don't think there have been any static times however. Perhaps I've had a lot of catching up to do.
Should we make efforts toward helping ourselves to grow if ever we feel as if we are static, do you think?
Cross-posted with Adeodantus.
[ 15. December 2014, 12:43: Message edited by: Raptor Eye ]
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm not sure I even know what it means to "grow" in faith or spirituality. I would say that of course, we can't spend our whole lives talking about God as we did when we were kids in Sunday school. But is that growth? To be frank, I'm a little suspicious of the word. It's a bit too modern and Western for my taste.
Perhaps the concept and language is normal for me having been strongly influenced by the language and ideas of the time. I guess this is so for everyone, to some extent.
Do you not think that faith in God may become stronger or deeper over time?
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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As time goes on, I hope to burn more of my idols.
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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Some times I think that the only thing we can hope to do is to control the fires that threaten to turn aspects of our personality into our own hell this side of the eschaton.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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I have come to trust in God to do the burning: both to show me where aspects of my own personality are harmful, and to help me to see false idols I've set up or latched onto.
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on
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Sylvia Plath in Black Rook in Rainy Weather: "spasmodic tricks of radiance" and "rare, random descent[s]"
Or Anne Lewin "Waiting for the Kingfisher"; you know it's there, it's in the field guide, friends have seen it but you have not yet
Nothing nearly as definitive and linear as "growth"
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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Well. I suppose I've gained an ability to be patient with people who reel out glib answers, and that in itself is some kind of growth.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Sylvia Plath in Black Rook in Rainy Weather: "spasmodic tricks of radiance" and "rare, random descent[s]"
Or Anne Lewin "Waiting for the Kingfisher"; you know it's there, it's in the field guide, friends have seen it but you have not yet
Nothing nearly as definitive and linear as "growth"
This is only one of the ways in which we grow in faith, it seems to me, by catching glimpses of the radiant greatness of God: certainly one of the vital affirming aspects which once experienced we can fall back upon.
In the day to day living with Christ in our lives, having the spiritual senses tuned into the guidance of the Holy Spirit, growth or progression surely does happen. Patience is one of its fruits. My words are not meant as glib, Chris, and I don't mean to offend, rather to put into words my own experiences and to hope that any challenge or affirmation from others will help make them more coherent.
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
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May I add a point of view here?
The non-believers, humanists and atheists I know are im bued with spirituality equal to anyone's. . They know it to be a human characteristic, a word which sort of describes the aesthetic side of life. For me, to 'grow' in faith would be to putback the metaphorical blinkers and move away from reality.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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What would such growth look like, exactly?
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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Raptor -
I'm happy that you feel you have continued to grow all your life.
I would say that that isn't my experience. Reading the OT and the lives of Christians down the ages, I would say that that wasn't all of their experiences either.
So I think any model of the Christian life that fails to account for that data is incomplete at best.
I'm reminded strongly by that thread a year or more ago on the subject of Christian perfection. The same issues are raised.
I think some people get better in some areas, some people get worse, and some people just struggle with different areas as they grow older.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
May I add a point of view here?
The non-believers, humanists and atheists I know are im bued with spirituality equal to anyone's. . They know it to be a human characteristic, a word which sort of describes the aesthetic side of life. For me, to 'grow' in faith would be to putback the metaphorical blinkers and move away from reality.
Thank you Susan, I was hoping to include the whole spectrum of 'spirituality'. I find it interesting that while I see it running parallel with faith, you seem to think that there is a contradiction, ie you think that faith is not to do with reality while you think that spirituality is. I strongly disagree, naturally, as I am convinced that God exists.
You don't say whether you think that spirituality grows, but imply that everyone is equally spiritual?
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I have come to trust in God to do the burning: both to show me where aspects of my own personality are harmful, and to help me to see false idols I've set up or latched onto.
This is a perspective I am unable to grasp other than as a concept. Not one to actually have lived. From my perspective, it's about comfort, without expectation to develop anything personal within myself. Personal growth is something I am sceptical about, feeling it is a particular way of understanding life, and a current industry for yoga instructors and retreat centres. Not one possible for many people, because they are scrabbling simply to survive physically and emotionally.
I think the main issue is adherence and trying to navigate the things that would make me fully apostate. To worship and sing without expectation, but more importantly focus on the wellbeing and needs of others.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Raptor -
I'm happy that you feel you have continued to grow all your life.
I would say that that isn't my experience. Reading the OT and the lives of Christians down the ages, I would say that that wasn't all of their experiences either.
So I think any model of the Christian life that fails to account for that data is incomplete at best.
I'm reminded strongly by that thread a year or more ago on the subject of Christian perfection. The same issues are raised.
I think some people get better in some areas, some people get worse, and some people just struggle with different areas as they grow older.
I haven't continued to grow all of my life. I have continued to grow in faith and spirituality since I first became convinced of God's existence. Before that time, I accepted that there was a spiritual dimension to our lives, but didn't relate it to religion.
I'm not suggesting that there is any model of the Christian life other than that set by Christ himself, and we know that wasn't easy. If we follow Paul's advice and example, we'll keep making the effort to run the race as best we can, won't we?
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I'm not suggesting that there is any model of the Christian life other than that set by Christ himself, and we know that wasn't easy.
I think this is incomplete. Christ didn't deny Christ. Peter did. I do.
Posted by Paul. (# 37) on
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Oh boy. I could write a lot about this and maybe I will.
The reason is that when I stopping going to church about 17 years ago it was in part because I couldn't see any concrete signs of "growth" in myself. At that point I'd been a Christian a couple of decades. I also started to wonder whether the differences I saw around me were due to "growth" or just a natural variation in people's abilities, backgrounds and let's face it, personalities.
Actually the first thread I ever started on the Ship was on this topic and someone chided me for having inflated expectations. However that person also recommended I look to the lives of Saints as inspiration so clearly expecting some sort of progress was not out of order.
None of which is to dismiss the OP - I think it is an interesting and important question - I'm just acknowledging it pushes my buttons.
I'm also reminded of a conversation I had long ago about the difference between weaknesses and limitations - the idea that there are things God expects us to work on and with His help overcome (or at least improve on), and some things which we will have to live with. I think I believe that - but don't ask me to tell you where the dividing line is.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I have come to trust in God to do the burning: both to show me where aspects of my own personality are harmful, and to help me to see false idols I've set up or latched onto.
This is a perspective I am unable to grasp other than as a concept. Not one to actually have lived. From my perspective, it's about comfort, without expectation to develop anything personal within myself. Personal growth is something I am sceptical about, feeling it is a particular way of understanding life, and a current industry for yoga instructors and retreat centres. Not one possible for many people, because they are scrabbling simply to survive physically and emotionally.
I think the main issue is adherence and trying to navigate the things that would make me fully apostate. To worship and sing without expectation, but more importantly focus on the wellbeing and needs of others.
Looking for a place of comfort is understandable, but unless we're comfortable with every aspect of ourselves, satisfied with our beliefs, and holding no questions in our minds we are unlikely to find it imv.
I understand that the struggle simply to survive physically and emotionally may take up so much energy that there seems to be none left for spiritual development, but as we are three-dimensional (at least) the physical, emotional / mental, and spiritual all impact on each other: so that neglect of the spirit leaves us deficient in other ways too.
I get it that if we feel let down by God for any reason, our trust in God will be shaken. From that position, our relationship with God is at a disadvantage. I have on many occasions asked God why? and found no answer. Stripping down attributes we attach to God that may be false is a necessary element of the process of faith. God does keep us safe spiritually, if we trust in him, whether or not we are physically or mentally harmed. Why should we trust in a God we don't understand and who seems to let us down? Because in our hearts we know that God is good.
I worship and pray without expectation too. I can't switch God on by closing my eyes. God is his own person, it must be that way. I do hope, I do ask for guidance, I do express my love of God, I do try to serve as best I can, I do want to be my best and do my best, for God's sake and for the sake of other people as the two are intertwined.
Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on
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I'm currently working my way through Newman's Grammar of Assent . He argues that we hold more fully to a belief which we assent to as 'real,' that is as directly experienced by us, than we do to one which is 'notional', that is which we hold to be fully true intellectually but which our imaginative and emotional selves have not taken hold of. In this context I think that this means that to grow spiritually is to make our assent to our faith ever more 'real' and thus transformative of ourselves.
On a somewhat similar note in my most recent blog 'Sense and Sensuality' I suggested that when Orthodoxy becomes our heart-belief then it issues forth from us as Orthopraxy. The business of our lives is to make these belief's heart-held because only then will we be enabled to give God and neighbour all that is due to them, which is the cardinal virtue Justice. And of course this is simply another way of describing spiritual growth and its benefits.
[ 17. December 2014, 05:59: Message edited by: StevHep ]
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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My two happ'orth would be that these are areas often best judged by others rather than by ourselves.
I'd start to get worried if I felt I was attaining some level of 'spiritual growth' - because I recognise that I'm not always going to be the best judge of that.
It also raises the issue of what the Russians call 'prelest' or spiritual pride - not that I'm levying that accusation at anyone here.
Sure, there can be a form of 'false humility' but generally speaking I don't think it behoves any of us to go around crowing about what particular 'spiritual level' we believe ourselves to have attained.
'Lord have mercy upon me, a sinner ...'
That's the best approach to take, I think.
'Lord, I believe, help Thou mine unbelief ...'
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
Oh boy. I could write a lot about this and maybe I will.
The reason is that when I stopping going to church about 17 years ago it was in part because I couldn't see any concrete signs of "growth" in myself. At that point I'd been a Christian a couple of decades. I also started to wonder whether the differences I saw around me were due to "growth" or just a natural variation in people's abilities, backgrounds and let's face it, personalities.
Actually the first thread I ever started on the Ship was on this topic and someone chided me for having inflated expectations. However that person also recommended I look to the lives of Saints as inspiration so clearly expecting some sort of progress was not out of order.
None of which is to dismiss the OP - I think it is an interesting and important question - I'm just acknowledging it pushes my buttons.
I'm also reminded of a conversation I had long ago about the difference between weaknesses and limitations - the idea that there are things God expects us to work on and with His help overcome (or at least improve on), and some things which we will have to live with. I think I believe that - but don't ask me to tell you where the dividing line is.
This highlights the other side of Gamaliel's point imv, that it is as much a problem if we don't feel as if we are growing at all as it is if we try to trump other people with how much we think we've grown in comparison to them.
This has given me something meaty to think on, as has StevHep's post, thank you both. I can see that we must live with our limitations while working on the areas we can improve, knowing that we will never be perfect and accepting that we shouldn't be, as spiritual pride would almost certainly kick in and then we wouldn't be..... I think. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Pondering on StevHep's post, I can see that our experiences will feed our beliefs far more than our thoughts, and yet our thoughts might rationalise away our experiences, so that we may convince ourselves that they were not real. We surely need both in some kind of alignment, even though faith doesn't make sense..... I think.
My heart tells me that growth in faith and spiritual growth are both important for me. My head tells me that some people never come to experience God or to feel as if they grow in either sense. If that isn't important from their point of view, if they can continue to believe in God regardless, perhaps they are the ones blessed, as Jesus said, because they haven't seen and yet they believe.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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I think you've raised some important issues there, Raptor Eye.
In some ways, the manner in which God works with all of us is at an 'unconscious' level - we aren't always aware of it - 'he sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous ...' and so on.
The same sun shines on us all whether we are indifferent to God or whether we are his most fervent servant and worshipper.
I agree with you that there should be a level of intentionality about the whole thing - we are indeed commanded to 'grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ...' (2 Peter 3:18 NIV).
But we aren't always aware when that growth is taking place. Just as when you are six or seven years old you aren't aware that you're putting on weight and height. Our parents aren't even aware of it on a perceptible level other than when they draw pencil marks on the wall ...
Yet growth is taking place.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Sylvia Plath in Black Rook in Rainy Weather: "spasmodic tricks of radiance" and "rare, random descent[s]"
Or Anne Lewin "Waiting for the Kingfisher"; you know it's there, it's in the field guide, friends have seen it but you have not yet
Nothing nearly as definitive and linear as "growth"
This is only one of the ways in which we grow in faith, it seems to me, by catching glimpses of the radiant greatness of God: certainly one of the vital affirming aspects which once experienced we can fall back upon.
And those of us who don't experience those things are not growing? If we experience less and less of any sense or understanding of God as in any way present anywhere, are we shrinking instead of growing?
quote:
In the day to day living with Christ in our lives, having the spiritual senses tuned into the guidance of the Holy Spirit, growth or progression surely does happen. Patience is one of its fruits. My words are not meant as glib, Chris, and I don't mean to offend, rather to put into words my own experiences and to hope that any challenge or affirmation from others will help make them more coherent.
Trying to "live with Christ" and "tune into the guidance of the Holy Spirit" these past several years has mostly left me feeling like a complete failure at those things, and that God is completely absent.
I feel like it's an opportunity for growth that I have finally shed thinking I should try to do those things, and started opening myself up to find out what I really do believe, and what my own life is, instead of trying to fit myself into a Christian normative box of what I should try to make my life and my faith be.
[ 17. December 2014, 16:45: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Yes, I agree to an extent with AR above; I find the notion of growth in spiritual terms quite odd really. I can see that one might notice some differences at a later point in time, compared with an earlier point, but what does 'growth' mean?
I could say that I have gone backwards, as I now find most religious terms incomprehensible, whereas I used to consider that I understood them!
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Christian books and articles, and even church leaders, often refer to spiritual growth and spiritual maturity, so it's interesting to come here and find that people are rejecting those terms.
I can understand that those who are critical of orthodox Christianity in general would disapprove of these phrases, but more interesting to me is whether orthodox Christian theology has a place for those who live (or feel that they live) permanently on a spiritual plateau. If growing and learning into faith (as opposed to out of it) is important, what does Christianity offer to people who don't change?
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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@Svitlana
comfort.
The rest is a sales job. Which some call other things. Like Stewardship or Evangelism.
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
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quote:
...I find the notion of growth in spiritual terms quite odd really. I can see that one might notice some differences at a later point in time, compared with an earlier point, but what does 'growth' mean?[/QB]
In Christian terms, doesn't spiritual growth simply mean becoming more like God, whose character is supremely demonstrated by Jesus? Or, if you want to put it a bit more concretely, living a life increasingly full of the fruit of the Spirit.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
@Svitlana
comfort.
The rest is a sales job.
Yes, I know that religion is supposedly the opium of the masses, but I'm interested to know whether there's such a thing as a theology of the spiritual plateau.
I think the following anonymous poem offers something relevant. I found it in a United Reformed church recently:
quote:
I hear no voice
I feel no touch
I see no glory bright,
but yet I know that God is near,
in darkness as in light.
He watches ever by my side
and hears my whispered prayer. Amen.
It offers 'comfort', certainly, but is it also selling religious stasis? Is it saying that we don't need to look for the signs of spiritual development?
Maybe Reformed theology is the most at home with the notion of the comforting spiritual plateau, whereas the Pentecostal and charismatic churches are offering the kinds of spiritual excitement that few can achieve, and hence are promoting spiritual discomfort in the long run. Our problem is that we're initially attracted to such churches like a moth to a flame, when what we really should do is join the URC!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
...I find the notion of growth in spiritual terms quite odd really. I can see that one might notice some differences at a later point in time, compared with an earlier point, but what does 'growth' mean?
In Christian terms, doesn't spiritual growth simply mean becoming more like God, whose character is supremely demonstrated by Jesus? Or, if you want to put it a bit more concretely, living a life increasingly full of the fruit of the Spirit. [/QB]
Well, fair enough, but I think that human spirituality exists on a very wide spectrum. I have noticed some people, as they got older, turn inwards and not want so much contact with others; others might have an emptiness and dryness of spirit; others might stop going to church, and so on.
I don't see these things as negative - that is my point. I suppose they could be construed as growth in fact, but not in a conventional manner. There is no recipe - although maybe for some Christians, there is.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Careful, South Coast Kevin, you're getting close to Orthodox theosis territory ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously, yes, we are meant to become more Christ-like ... but what does this mean in practice?
That we become more compassionate? More ready to give rather than receive? Less selfish?
Again, these are things which are often better for others to judge than we ourselves.
I don't see Christlikeness depending on particular experiences or forms of spirituality ... we can encounter Christlike people in each and every Christian tradition - and yes, even beyond the perimeters of Christianity too.
Coming back to theosis and the Orthodox view of these things ... I was once told that a 'dispassionate' nature - ie. a nature free from 'passions' - rather than one that is distanced and indifferent - is one of the signs of spiritual growth ... hence the reason why Saints are depicted with stylised, 'dispassionate' expressions in Orthodox iconography.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
doesn't spiritual growth simply mean becoming more like God.
I'd put it - becoming more truly ourselves - increasing more of the particular part of God's image in which we are made.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Indeed, or becoming more fully human, fully 'alive' - it has all those connotations and more.
It's about 'becoming what we are' - or 'who we are' rather.
Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on
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Hmm, time for my quote of the day-
quote:
The love of God is our true self-love, the love characteristic of and directed to our true selves,
St Catherine of Genoa
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on
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It is not easy to express how I experience the growth of faith.
Fowler’s Stages of Faith are a starting point, with a progression from acceptance of what you are taught, to questioning, to exploring, to (as I see it) resting in the mystery that is God, ever present and eternally loving, revealed by Jesus the Galilean.
The bible exposes us to the experiences of God of people of other eras and other cultures, all of which are pointers but none of which coincide with my experience. Ann Lewin’s ‘Watching for the kingfisher’ says a lot to me.
Whitman's lines about animals who ‘do not sweat and whine about their condition;
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God’ have always been a favourite of mine.
A worshiping community contributes in another way, providing something more than the sum of fellowship and shared worship experiences.
Like many whom I know I’m not comfortable with calling God ‘he’; calling the Spirit ‘she’ is one degree more acceptable. The spirit is ‘ruach’, the breath that touches my skin when I go outside in the evening to offer a body prayer.I hope I may never cease to come closer to understanding and experiencing God.
GG
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
And those of us who don't experience those things are not growing? If we experience less and less of any sense or understanding of God as in any way present anywhere, are we shrinking instead of growing?
Trying to "live with Christ" and "tune into the guidance of the Holy Spirit" these past several years has mostly left me feeling like a complete failure at those things, and that God is completely absent.
I feel like it's an opportunity for growth that I have finally shed thinking I should try to do those things, and started opening myself up to find out what I really do believe, and what my own life is, instead of trying to fit myself into a Christian normative box of what I should try to make my life and my faith be.
This poses the dilemma: Is it right to try to openly express our faith, how we relate with God, and assessment as to whether or not we are growing spiritually, and in what ways? We surely do need to reflect upon these things for ourselves, as reflective practice helps us to identify areas of weakness and build on strengths. It does seem to me that effort and struggle is a necessity, as is affirmation.
I can see that if we talk about our experiences, those who don't have such experiences may feel denied, but might some equally feel inspired? I like to hear about the roads others travel, particularly those whose journeys have not been similar to mine.
The problem seems to be tied in with the solution. There is no cause and effect. There can't be. Whatever effort we put in, we can't guarantee a reaction from God. We can only follow Jesus the best we can, keep praying, and remain open minded. Opening ourselves up to find out what we really do believe is important imv, as we must strip away false ideas about God that we have held onto. It might be better to have no preconceived ideas at all, but this would surely be impossible if living within an historical Christian culture. I therefore wonder whether your first paragraph shows growth rather than shrinkage.
There is no normative box to try to fit ourselves into. Each one of us is unique, and relates with God in a unique way: some find connection more through scriptures or church liturgy or music or literature or art or nature than through any direct experience.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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You talk as if living in a culture influenced by Christianity is a bad thing and somehow militates against authentic faith.
As though God doesn't use that cultural background as a medium through which to reach out to people.
I'm also a tad wary of your emphasis on 'direct experience' here - experiences can be deceptive. Joseph Smith claimed to have 'direct experience' ... experience in and of itself doesn't particularly 'prove' anything ... 'we walk by faith not by sight ...'
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
The question as to whether living within a culture with a historical religious background has dangers as well as benefits might be a topic for a new thread, Gamaliel, as may be the discernment criteria for direct experience of God, although this has often been discussed over my time on the Ship.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Yes, I know that religion is supposedly the opium of the masses, but I'm interested to know whether there's such a thing as a theology of the spiritual plateau.
I think the following anonymous poem offers something relevant. I found it in a United Reformed church recently:
quote:
I hear no voice
I feel no touch
I see no glory bright,
but yet I know that God is near,
in darkness as in light.
He watches ever by my side
and hears my whispered prayer. Amen.
It offers 'comfort', certainly, but is it also selling religious stasis? Is it saying that we don't need to look for the signs of spiritual development?
Maybe Reformed theology is the most at home with the notion of the comforting spiritual plateau, whereas the Pentecostal and charismatic churches are offering the kinds of spiritual excitement that few can achieve, and hence are promoting spiritual discomfort in the long run. Our problem is that we're initially attracted to such churches like a moth to a flame, when what we really should do is join the URC!
As usual, I think that both are important. I like your term 'theology of the spiritual plateau.' ISTM that we don't grow unless we make an effort whether it involves learning and reading, church involvement, prayer, good works, etc. We will reach plateaux from time to time during which we may stop growing for a while before moving on again.
However, there is a danger that we might think we have arrived and simply stay there, perhaps stop making much effort, and possibly expect to receive comfort, to be nurtured and nourished by God or 'The Church', including Christian friends.
Either way, we are in danger of falling away from faith and from spiritual growth imv if we feel as if we're making no progress.
Too much excitement or too much stagnation leave us wanting, but it's never about what we 'achieve', but about where we are and where our focus is that's important.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Sure -
On the issue of whether living in a culture which has historically been predominantly influenced by Christianity has both benefits and dangers - well the answer is clearly 'both'.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, fair enough, but I think that human spirituality exists on a very wide spectrum. I have noticed some people, as they got older, turn inwards and not want so much contact with others; others might have an emptiness and dryness of spirit; others might stop going to church, and so on.
I don't see these things as negative - that is my point. I suppose they could be construed as growth in fact, but not in a conventional manner. There is no recipe - although maybe for some Christians, there is.
I can see that a hermit may or may not be deeply spiritual.
An emptiness and dryness of spirit, however, sounds as if something is seriously lacking spiritually. If someone has given up on trying spiritually, is that comparable to someone giving up physically or mentally, ie not bothering with exercise or learning? Of course, it's their decision and not for others to condemn, but it may not be considered healthy.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
If some RC contemplatives and spiritual writers are to be believed, then a 'dark night of the soul' is part and parcel of spiritual progress.
So dry and apparently unproductive periods might actually turn out to be far from the case.
I was very positively influenced by a Christian teacher at school ... he seemed a well-rounded, balanced bloke with a wide range of interests who happened to be a believer. He didn't fit the kind of po-faced, pietistic image I had of what Christians were supposed to be like ... he could also talk intelligently and engagingly about his faith.
When I later came to faith, he was really surprised to hear that he'd had any influence on that ... he was going through what he thought of a as a spiritually 'dry' patch when he'd taught me at school.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
doesn't spiritual growth simply mean becoming more like God.
I'd put it - becoming more truly ourselves - increasing more of the particular part of God's image in which we are made.
Does this amount to the same thing, I wonder?
Does it also mean living in closer relationship with God, or is that growth in faith rather than in spirituality?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I agree to an extent with AR above; I find the notion of growth in spiritual terms quite odd really. I can see that one might notice some differences at a later point in time, compared with an earlier point, but what does 'growth' mean?
Becoming more like God, inasmuch as human beings can. Growth in love, self-denial, wisdom, knowledge of God, self-awareness. Unless you think you are entirely and completely like God now (and I trust no one here would be so out of touch with reality), you admit you have room for growth.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But is that growth? To be frank, I'm a little suspicious of the word. It's a bit too modern and Western for my taste.
Would you settle for an ancient and eastern word? The Orthodox call it θεοσις (theosis) and it is at the heart of our understanding of human spirituality (and indeed of our soteriology).
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Growth in love, self-denial, wisdom, knowledge of God, self-awareness.
One of these things is not like the others. I can imagine growth or change in most of these categories, but growing in knowledge of God (which I take to mean heart-knowledge rather than head-knowledge) is right out for me. (And even the head-knowledge of God is a failure for me: what I've learned over the years is this: what believers say about God doesn't make any sense to me any more.)
I think what bothers me about talking about growth in faith or spirituality is that it's not something we can directly control. I'd be more comfortable talking about spiritual seeking.
I'm also uncomfortable with any implication that we should be looking at other people and judging whether they are growing (or seeking) enough. I suppose that hasn't been directly stated on this thread; perhaps my nervousness about this implication possibly lurking in the background stems from several years of being in a group with someone who was quick to judge people for not being at church for the supposedly right reasons.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I think what bothers me about talking about growth in faith or spirituality is that it's not something we can directly control. I'd be more comfortable talking about spiritual seeking.
Here the Orthodox Church would disagree with you. By taking part in the spiritual practices of the church, including prayer, fasting, and almsgiving, we believe that we do have some control over how we grow.
quote:
I'm also uncomfortable with any implication that we should be looking at other people and judging whether they are growing (or seeking) enough.
Here the Orthodox would agree with you 100%. We even have a saying: Only look at your own plate. Meaning how others keep the fast is none of your business. We are explicitly taught not to pay attention to who's taking communion this week or not, how someone else keeps the fast, what their prayer life is like, and so forth. And if there's any gossip about this at my parish, I'm not invited to participate in it. Then again maybe people are afraid their gossip will end up on the Onion Dome. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
It is not easy to express how I experience the growth of faith.
Fowler’s Stages of Faith are a starting point, with a progression from acceptance of what you are taught, to questioning, to exploring, to (as I see it) resting in the mystery that is God, ever present and eternally loving, revealed by Jesus the Galilean.
The bible exposes us to the experiences of God of people of other eras and other cultures, all of which are pointers but none of which coincide with my experience. Ann Lewin’s ‘Watching for the kingfisher’ says a lot to me.
Whitman's lines about animals who ‘do not sweat and whine about their condition;
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God’ have always been a favourite of mine.
A worshiping community contributes in another way, providing something more than the sum of fellowship and shared worship experiences.
Like many whom I know I’m not comfortable with calling God ‘he’; calling the Spirit ‘she’ is one degree more acceptable. The spirit is ‘ruach’, the breath that touches my skin when I go outside in the evening to offer a body prayer.I hope I may never cease to come closer to understanding and experiencing God.
GG
Thank you for the reminder of Fowler's stages of faith development, which are interesting. He is correlating them with our natural stages as we progress with age, rather than with effort, but surely the latter is a necessity?
Consciousness of God must confront us with our imperfection, so that we, unlike the animals, may reflect, change and pray, and come ever closer to understanding God, isn't that so?
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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One could certainly argue that it takes some 'effort' to reach the various 'stages of faith' in Fowler's model, Raptor Eye. As far as I can see, they aren't simply things that 'happen' to us naturally, but stages we go through via a combination of choices and actions.
I don't think Fowler would have argued that everyone ends up at the same stage at the same age, as it were. It's perfectly possible to remain in one or other of the stages for years and years.
Like any of these models, they can only take us so far.
I'm with Mousethief on this one, that participation in prayer, worship, acts of charity and kindness, along with deliberate and 'attentive' or 'mindful' engagement in whatever it happens to be that we do in our respective traditions and churches, then we can 'control' and regulate our own spiritual development to some extent - in c-operation with divine grace.
We don't simply stand in a corner and wait for it to happen.
I'm convinced that if anyone followed a disciplined approach to 'spirituality' - whether in RC, Orthodox or the various Protestant models - then they'd 'grow in grace and in the knowledge of the son of God who loved us and gave himself for us.'
That doesn't necessarily mean that we are conscious of that growth as it takes place - nor does it mean that it operates like a slot-machine ... 'I've punched in Three Hail Mary's, an Our Father, put in a bit more into the collection plate this week or done a good deed for my neighbour and not got cross with the cat ... therefore I'm in a better place spiritually than I was this time last week ...'
No, neither does it mean that if I 'speak in tongues' or use pious sounding language, can quote chapter and verse from Genesis to Revelation and have read every chunky theological tome I've been able to lay my hands on that I've 'arrived' spiritually ...
We all fluctuate, we all of us tumble and fall.
It's like the old story of the monk who is asked what they do in the monastery all day long. He answered, 'We fall down, we rise up again, we fall down, we rise up again, we fall down ...'
I do believe that some kind of disciplined spiritual engagement (of whatever kind) is key to all of this - but that doesn't mean that we are necessarily going to be aware of the outcomes nor 'experience' anything out of the ordinary.
Besides, our spiritual growth is probably something that others can discern better than ourselves.
We can all spout pious sounding platitudes - it's how we treat the people around us that counts.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
:
Since "growth" is meeting such resistence here, maybe the term "tranforming" should be considered.
Faith is constantly tranforming for me. I certainly do not believe as I was taught to believe when I was in a conservative church. I eventually got to the point where I had to break out for the rigid boundaries that church expected me to adhere to. I found that experience to be more like breaking out of a cacoon.
But even as I broke out of that cacoon, the church were I am not going is continually challenging me in new ways. It's motto seems to be "Question Authority." I am continually breaking out of some smaller cacoons.
One comment about the OP. While it seems that a person may not be experiencing growth in the moment, by looking back, perhaps one can see various points where growth took place. Consider a tree. It does not appear to grow from day to day, but over time it adds new tree rings, increases in height and spreads out more and more.
I like Fowler's Stages of Spirtuality as pointed out above. For some people they move rather seemlessly through the stages. Others move back and forth between stages. Still others have transformational experiences. I am in the latter catagory I think.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
This old thread in Oblivion speaks directly into the conversation here.
I'm left bemused, hanging onto the need for 'Thy will be done' and acknowledgement of the grace of God, while recognising that once we begin to evaluate, we're bound to compare, and in comparing we're giving status either to ourselves or to others. But we surely must reject status, as we're all adopted brothers and sisters in Christ, by God's grace.
And yet, growth seems to be important.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I'm not 'resistant' to the concept of growth - how does the verse go? 'First the seed, and then the ear, then the full corn in the ear'?
Essentially, though, I think it's God's business and not ours. Our responsibility is to apply ourselves to the spiritual disciplines and means of grace without comparing ourselves with anyone else.
I think Galatians 6:4-6 speaks to this to a certain extent.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+6%3A4-6&version=KJV
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
We can all spout pious sounding platitudes - it's how we treat the people around us that counts.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
It is up to us to apply ourselves, Gamaliel, I agree, and to allow God to do the necessary. This also means not standing in God's way. But surely the verse you referred does encourage us to judge ourselves.
Martin, I don't think it's enough to simply treat each other well. It's not enough unless we love each other as if we're brothers and sisters, and to love God with our whole being. If that's a pious platitude, I don't regret spouting it. Not until we're at that place are we spiritually mature; nor is our faith, imv.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It is up to us to apply ourselves, Gamaliel, I agree, and to allow God to do the necessary. This also means not standing in God's way. But surely the verse you referred does encourage us to judge ourselves.
Martin, I don't think it's enough to simply treat each other well. It's not enough unless we love each other as if we're brothers and sisters, and to love God with our whole being. If that's a pious platitude, I don't regret spouting it. Not until we're at that place are we spiritually mature; nor is our faith, imv.
Yes, there are scriptural references to judging ourselves - this isn't the only one.
As for loving everyone equally and as if they were our brothers and sisters - that's a worthy aspiration and I'm sure we can all improve at this ... but it's not something I think we can wake up one morning having fully achieved.
If you can, then you are a better man than I am, Gunga Din.
I don't doubt that certain people do attain a high level of love for God and their fellow man ... but there's always going to be room for improvement.
As for 'loving God with our whole being' - what does that actually mean and what does it involve?
How do we measure it?
How do we know if we only love God with 20%, 25%, 48.62% or 78.91% of our 'whole being'?
How do we know? How can we tell?
We can attempt to judge and assess these things as much as we like but our own efforts to do so are bound to be flawed and partial.
We can easily succumb to what the Russians call 'prelest' - spiritual pride. Or we can all too easily veer off in the opposite direction into a kind of false humility of the Uriah Heep 'ever so 'umble' kind.
I'd hazard a guess that those who are 'spiritually mature' don't go around assessing whether they or anyone else are up-to-the-mark spiritually speaking ... they're too busy simply getting on with loving God and loving their neighbour.
It's difficult to talk about these things without sounding as if we're bandying pious platitudes around.
Which is one reason why I'm not sure how helpful it is to do so nor to write on internet boards about the extent to which we believe ourselves to be 'growing in faith' or 'developing spiritual maturity' ...
I'm not suggesting that we are setting ourselves up for a fall, necessarily, simply that it isn't really the right issue to address.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I know you are posting here under a pseudonym, Raptor Eye, as most of us are - but do you not think that Matthew 6:1-6 might have some kind of application here?
http://biblia.com/bible/nrsv/Mt6.1-6
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
The thread is about exploration of the importance of growth, Gamaliel. As such, I've found most comments very helpful.
It's interesting that you return again to the implication that somehow I am assessing myself here, falling into the sin of spiritual pride and coming out with pious language, when all I have done is to introduce Biblical language and principles. I wonder where this comes from, and wonder whether it has an application in the kind of self assessment we've been talking about.
When we judge ourselves, do we automatically judge others as we make comparisons?
As to how we know whether or not we love God with the whole self, this like the love of one another will always fall short in our assessment, unless we do in fact fall into the trap of spiritual pride. The extent doesn't seem to matter, but the assessment does, so that we continue to strive, to aim for the goal, the highest standard set by God. Failure to do so surely brings with it the danger of complacency.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
If I have not charity.
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
I think Raptor Eye has it right - making a sober, honest assessment of our spiritual situation and progress does not necessitate either spiritual pride or false humility.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd hazard a guess that those who are 'spiritually mature' don't go around assessing whether they or anyone else are up-to-the-mark spiritually speaking ... they're too busy simply getting on with loving God and loving their neighbour.
On the contrary, I think a marker of spiritual maturity is that we accurately discern the state of our soul and take action to open ourselves up to God's transforming power. So that we can more effectively get on with loving God and loving our neighbour.
And shouldn't there also, within each Christian community, be an element of (lovingly, graciously) helping one another to discern our spiritual condition? We don't always see our own strengths and weaknesses accurately, so we need others who know and love us to help point out how we are doing and to support us in the journey of being transformed more into godliness.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Sure, I was clumsy in the way I expressed myself back there, Raptor Eye - I agree that some form of assessment is necessary.
I 'spose it's the way these things are sometimes expressed that makes me feel uncomfortable.
I wish we could find a way of discussing these issues that didn't sound either overly pietistic or 'holier-than-thou'-ish ... even if that isn't the intention. And I'm sure neither of those are the intention in your case.
I agree that there should be an 'intentionality' about all of this, though and that we have to 'continue to strive, to aim for the goal' - as you put it.
How we do that is going to vary according to a number of factors - our particular cultural and ecclesial context and background and so on and so forth.
What is valued as a sign of 'spiritual growth' in some settings may not necessarily be regarded as such in others.
I'd also suggest that the danger of spiritual pride is ever present.
Back in the day, in the charismatic evangelical circles in which I moved (and I'm not picking them out for censure, simply using them as an example as that's been my background and experience) I used to be 'known' for my Bible knowledge and my ability to quote chapter and verse. I could reel off whole chunks of scripture and so on.
I could also pray lengthy, impressive-sounding extemporary prayers peppered and laced with biblical quotes galore.
Everyone thought that was great.
Had there been a barometer of 'spiritual growth' and progress that valued that sort of thing, I'd have scored highly.
Irrespective of whether the ability to do those things was good, bad or indifferent, I'd say now that they weren't necessarily a real marker - in and of themselves - of spiritual growth and progress.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with Bible knowledge, nor with the ability to 'craft' prayers in such a way as to get loud 'Amens' ... but ultimately, unless there's loads of love there - as per 1 Corinthians 13 - I could easily become a clanging gong and a resounding cymbal.
Just as I often make a lot of noise to no particular purpose here aboard Ship!
This is where the discernment angle comes in - and where - as South Coast Kevin says, we need others to help us.
How the 'one another' aspect is going to work out on the ground also depends on a whole range of factors - cultural and educational background, 'churchmanship' and Christian tradition, etc etc etc.
I'd agree there's no room for complacency, but at the same time I'm rather wary these days of the kind of over-blown, spiritual-sounding language in which some of these aspects are couched.
Whenever I come across friends from my former church affiliation - either in real life or on-line - I love them to bits - but they all sound rather 'self-consciously' spiritual in the way they speak and the way they write. I'm not questioning their integrity or the genuine quality of their faith - simply saying that I find their way of expressing these things to sound uncomfortable and somewhat 'unreal' in a world where shit happens so regularly.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I s'pose I've been influenced by the Orthodox on these boards and in real life on some of my views on these issues.
I've always liked - and struggled with - the story from the Desert Fathers of the abbot who leads an exemplary life and is widely admired and respected by his fellow monks for his godliness and faith.
Yet on his death-bed this same abbot was heard crying out to God for mercy.
The monks are shocked. What has their esteemed abbot done that he is crying out to God for mercy in such a way?
Eventually, one of the younger monks approaches the old man. 'Abba,' he says, 'We have known your reputation for faith and charity, many of the older brothers among us have known you for years and found you a constant example of godliness and faith. How is that you are now crying out to God for mercy as one who has never repented?'
'My son,' the abbot replied, 'I have not even begun to repent ...'
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Back in the day, in the charismatic evangelical circles in which I moved (and I'm not picking them out for censure, simply using them as an example as that's been my background and experience) I used to be 'known' for my Bible knowledge and my ability to quote chapter and verse. I could reel off whole chunks of scripture and so on.
I could also pray lengthy, impressive-sounding extemporary prayers peppered and laced with biblical quotes galore.
Everyone thought that was great.
Had there been a barometer of 'spiritual growth' and progress that valued that sort of thing, I'd have scored highly.
But the problem here, as you suggest, is that these things are absolutely not accurate markers of spiritual growth / maturity. This doesn't mean assessing one another's spiritual growth / maturity is a bad or dangerous thing to do; it means we need to look for things other than Bible knowledge, eloquence in extempore prayer etc.
I'm sure you'd agree things like love, joyfulness, peace, kindness, self-control, gentleness and faithfulness are more accurate barometers of someone's spiritual condition.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Well yes, I thought that was axiomatic in what I was saying to be honest ...
But again, those qualities are not the sole prerogative of Christians necessarily ... they can be found elsewhere and everywhere - just as their absence can be marked in avowedly Christian settings too.
Which is why it's ultimately pretty tricky to pin these things down and define or 'assess' them as if we have some kind of multiple choice questionnaire to complete ...
'Let's see ... marks out of 10 for the fruits of the Spirit ...
Love - 6/10
Joy - 7/10
Peace - 5/10 - could do better ...'
Now, I know you're not advocating any such thing but I'm simply saying why I don't feel entirely comfortable with 'self-appointed' attempts to assess our own spiritual progress.
Sure, it needs doing in some way - but I'm not entirely sure how it needs to be done necessarily nor how we even go about trying to assess these things in any definitive sense ... other than to spot and highlight broad trends perhaps.
Clearly, if I'm hitting the bottle regularly and bad-mouthing people then I'm not growing in grace necessariy ... but at the same time I might outwardly look as if I'm doing great - saying and doing all the 'right things' but inwardly I could be an 'unclean tomb, full of dead men's bones' ... as it were.
We have to tread carefully, or 'walk softly' as the old Puritans would have said.
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
:
When I pray to God to be more patient (for example) He keeps sending me people who drive me mad with impatience. It's very annoying.
Fly safe,
Pyx_e.
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
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Also (and this from AA): Have I been going to church for 20 years or 1 year 20 times?
Fly safe.
Pyx_e
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But again, those qualities are not the sole prerogative of Christians necessarily ... they can be found elsewhere and everywhere - just as their absence can be marked in avowedly Christian settings too.
Agreed 100%. But so what; is anyone saying otherwise? I don't think I understand your point.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, it needs doing in some way - but I'm not entirely sure how it needs to be done necessarily nor how we even go about trying to assess these things in any definitive sense ... other than to spot and highlight broad trends perhaps.
...We have to tread carefully, or 'walk softly' as the old Puritans would have said.
Again, I agree - we indeed must tread carefully, both with ourselves and with others. But ISTM you have grave doubts as to the worth of even trying to assess our own and others' spiritual growth / condition.
I think, though, we have to try, because spiritual growth - becoming more like Christ, expressing more of his character and nature - is pretty much the heart of Christian faith, IMO. Repentance (turning our life around), taking ungodly thoughts captive, being transformed into Christlikeness (which is self-sacrificial love of God and of others) by the divine renewal of our mind - ISTM that's what Christianity is all about.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Again, I agree - we indeed must tread carefully, both with ourselves and with others. But ISTM you have grave doubts as to the worth of even trying to assess our own and others' spiritual growth / condition.
I think, though, we have to try, because spiritual growth - becoming more like Christ, expressing more of his character and nature - is pretty much the heart of Christian faith, IMO. Repentance (turning our life around), taking ungodly thoughts captive, being transformed into Christlikeness (which is self-sacrificial love of God and of others) by the divine renewal of our mind - ISTM that's what Christianity is all about.
You see spiritual growth and growth in faith as vital to Christianity then, SCK?
I lean toward that view. I see spiritual directors as important to help us when we feel as if we're stagnating - even if to remind us that desert experiences are sometimes necessary. I do see the difficulties and dangers with self-assessment, except that we're not doing so alone, we can rely on God the Holy Spirit to show us the error of our ways.
I like the story Gamaliel and found your reflections helpful, thank you.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I'm not sure we're on completely different pages, Raptor Eye and South Coast Kevin ... but possibly at different paragraphs on the same page ...
I won't stretch the analogy by attempting to second-guess which (if any) of us are further down the page than the others ...
Like all analogies, that analogy will only take us so far.
Anyhow, I don't think I'm saying that it's futile to even attempt to assess our spiritual state - whether individually or corporately - simply that no 'method' is infallible and there's always going to be the possibility that we - as well as anyone else - are going to 'get it wrong' or end up getting the wrong end of various sticks.
Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. 'We see as in a glass darkly' and so on.
It's easy, when striking a note of caution, to sound like one is throwing out the baby with the bathwater ... I hope I haven't done that nor given the impression that this is what I want to do.
I don't know if that makes things any clearer in terms of my own 'position' on these things - insofar as I have a position.
I think it's one of the elastic band things I keep banging on about ... the elastic band thing and the both/and not either/or thing ...
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Don't worry Raptor Eye. There's no risk of us ever being, ever doing enough. No risk that we'll ever treat each other well enough that we'll be found wanting in any other regard. We'll never love God enough that way let alone any other way, whatever that might be.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure we're on completely different pages, Raptor Eye and South Coast Kevin ... but possibly at different paragraphs on the same page ...
Which only makes sence if spiritual growth is linear.
It isn't.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Yes, of course balaam - which is another good reason why the analogy is flawed.
I've already said it was a flawed analogy.
I'm not saying that spiritual growth/development is linear. I was simply meckin' about with a well-worn phrase/cliche - about people being 'on the same page'.
It was a play on that not a literal description of how these things work ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I dunno ... literalists, literalists ... I'm surrounded by literalists ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
You see spiritual growth and growth in faith as vital to Christianity then, SCK?
Very much so. We Christians are God's hands and feet in the world; we are supposed to express Christ's ways and nature to those around us. The more closely we have the mind and the character of Christ, the better we can do those things.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I do see the difficulties and dangers with self-assessment, except that we're not doing so alone, we can rely on God the Holy Spirit to show us the error of our ways.
I'd add that it's very important to do all this in community. None of us discern God's will perfectly, so we all need a Christian community around us to help us catch what God is saying.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyhow, I don't think I'm saying that it's futile to even attempt to assess our spiritual state - whether individually or corporately - simply that no 'method' is infallible and there's always going to be the possibility that we - as well as anyone else - are going to 'get it wrong' or end up getting the wrong end of various sticks.
Thing is Gamaliel, ISTM you are correcting things that no one is actually saying in this thread. Who has said that any 'method' is infallible? Who has denied the possibility of 'getting it wrong' or ending up getting the wrong end of various sticks? I don't get why you've felt it necessary to give these corrections, sorry....
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Fair do's.
I agree with you on the community aspect and much else besides ...
In sounding some notes of caution and stating the obvious - that we don't always get it right - it doesn't mean I'm suggesting that any one here is necessarily going 'too far' or 'getting it wrong'.
I can understand your puzzlement, though. Why strike a note of caution when such a thing is axiomatic?
Hmmm ...
I s'pose part of it is to do with my own experiences in set-ups where certain wonky things weren't always corrected in time - and some not at all.
But I would agree that it is possible to go to the equal and opposite extreme and either become complacent or not be interested in the whole area of spiritual growth and development at all.
Howbeit, in principle I think we are all on the same page ... if that's the right metaphor to use.
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