Thread: Nominated to Vestry Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Someone (either with a sense of humor or of downright malevolence) has nominated me to the vestry of my church. I have never done such a thing and never considered it. Advice? Experience? Comments?

I feel it is all a terrible error -- somebody hit the wrong email address, perhaps. I am very, very creative indeed, but it is not a power I can imagine a church could use.
 

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Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
Decline the nomination.
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
I was on my parish Vestry for three years and enjoyed the experience. But that might be because we met in members' homes and food and wine were involved. (They now meet at the church on Sunday mornings after services.)

Seriously, it was a good opportunity to see how the parish functions and to have some input.
 

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Posted by Laud-able (# 9896) on :
 
In our diocese a nomination for the election of a churchwarden, parish council (formerly vestry) member, or lay member of the incumbency committee, must carry the signature of the nominee to signify consent to the nomination.

Having written that, I would add that - if your fellow parishioners are confident in your ability to serve - it is an honour and a privilege to occupy any of these offices.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
I agree. Accept the nomination and treat it as you would any new environment: listen, learn, and begin to contribute as soon as you feel ready to do so, identfying the special contribution that you can make. Does TEC (if that is your church) produce guidance or advice on the role of Vestry members? Worth looking to see.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
I agree with much of what Albertus said. In addition, I would suggest that you find out about the time commitment. How long do the meetings run? What is expected of a vestry member? (Under our previous rector, every vestry person was expected to chair a committee -- which generally meant an additional monthly meeting. Under our new rector, this is no longer the case.) Be sure you know who the wardens are; that will tell you something about how things will be run.

None of that is to discourage you, rather that you just go into it with eyes open.

As to training, I think it's pretty common to have a vestry "training" day or even a vestry retreat. These generally offer conversations about goals, priorities, the usual business stuff, but also prayer and reflection. A good way to get to know your fellow vestry folk, and to see a new side of them. For nuts-and-bolts and practical matters, you might also look up Vital Practices/Vestry Papers from the Episcopal Church Foundation. If you're on Facebook, they provide new resources each month.

Good luck. Just remember, if you turn down the nomination, you've officially rescinded your right to complain about anything.
 

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Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I was asked a couple of times if I'd be interested in serving on the Cathedral vestry, and was able to decline on the grounds that I'm the organist's wife, and I don't really think it would be appropriate. However, I do other voluntary things, like producing the weekly bulletin and singing in the choir; there are lots of ways you can be useful to a church without serving on committees.

If you really don't want to do it, whether it's because you feel that you have nothing to contribute (although you may surprise yourself!) or because you can't commit yourself to the time required, there's no shame in politely declining.
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
I've done two three-year terms on vestry and served on the rector search committee. I feel like that should be enough. Fortunately, when I was recently asked if I'd like to run for vestry this year, the warden who asked was very understanding of my reply that I'm not committing to anything new while I'm still the webmaster (which I've expressed my desire to stop doing, as I've done it for quite a few years). I'm getting good practice saying no, which I'm not very good at.

I don't like when it seems the same group of parishioners keep rotating through the vestry, and I'm glad to see new names on the nomination lists. Very important to get new ideas and wider participation.
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Does anybody know? Is the Vestry the same as what we call the PCC?
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
If it is, don't join it. It will eat your soul.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Does anybody know? Is the Vestry the same as what we call the PCC?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
In England, at least, the members of a PCC (or, in Baptist terms, the Diaconate) are the legal Managing Trustees of the church, which is recognised as a Charity.

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• Apostles - rare leaders of the Church who arise in lead in times of crisis (Kairos) e.g. the Twelve and Martin Luther.
• Prophets - rare people who similarly arise in times of crisis (Kairos) in order to bear witness to the call and judgement of God.

• Ministers - people who are called to the pastoral ministry of Word and Sacrament. They also carry the witness to the Church Universal within the local setting. Maps up to Apostle
• Doctors - people whose are judged to be teachers of the Word whether as at Seminary or as a Sunday School teacher. They also include apologist. They do not have pastoral responsibility. Maps up to Prophet.
• Elders - local people who are elected to provide leadership within the local church. If the Ministers represent the church universal these represent the church local. They are ordained and charged with overall oversight within the context. They carry a large pastoral brief with spiritual care for specific members of the congregation often entrusted to them.
• Deacons - not the people who look after the material aspects of the congregation, that was the town council. These were the people who headed up the social outreach, running hospitals, feeding the hungry etc. They were not ordained so not included by Calvin in his five fold ministry

The Reformed tradition in the broad sense has produced multiple different combinations of this structures. Calvin's original model was for a Circuit based model of governance. There being two bodies within this, the ministers team and the Consistory which had the senior minister chairing a meeting of the the Elders. Other ministers could be brought before the Consistory and reprimanded. The civil authorities were separate.

If you want to know about where the American idea of balance of power came from then I suspect you need to trace a line that goes through Calvin's Geneva.

Jengie

[ 04. January 2015, 13:49: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Hehehe. I was an Elder until I had to move away from that town for work purposes. It was fun. I was the Worship Committee.

Though in the United Church of Canada, there is a second, statutory Board of Trustees for each congregation in addition to the Session/Church Council. It's the Trustees who have legal title to the property and they are the only ones who can dispose of it.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
It's the Trustees who have legal title to the property and they are the only ones who can dispose of it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Some people have become worried by this (although it has been the case for many years) as they think they can be personally liable if the church incurs debts or is sued. However that is not how things work unless they have declared themselves to be individually responsible.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
It's the Trustees who have legal title to the property and they are the only ones who can dispose of it.

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That would be true of independent churches in Britain. Denominational churches (eg Baptists, Methodists, mainline Pentecostals) usually have a denominational Property Board to act as Holding Trustees. However local issues (and funds) are handled locally via the Deacons (or whatever) who are the Managing Trustees.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Well before it quite wanders away into the distance, I will say there is an informational meeting in early February and I will go to it. I am an incorrigible neophile, and since I have never been on a vestry before it is tempting for that reason alone. (Surely there is grist for the fictional mill here?) If they had been sensible they would have offered me a hot-air balloon ride. I will be upfront about all my many faults, and then on their own head be it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Brenda, it depends. If all the leadership want to talk about is who going to defrost the chicken and rotas then you may as well start hitting yourself on the head with a mallet now. So as to enjoy the sensation when it stops.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:

We seem to be so organised that everyone on the PCC (what you call a Vestry) is required to write at least one report for the annual meeting; as organist I have to make reports to each PCC so all I have to do is compile these from the year and then edit sensibly.

You ought to factor into your decision on joining the Vestry whether or not you think you have the time for this sort of thing.

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What kind of PCC expects a written report from every member (all 22?)?


Isn't a PCC/vestry constituted, partially, of elected representatives from the congregation? So, surely, only the church organizations should be submitting reports (written or verbal) for the APCM; in addition, of course, to the official stuff from the Secretary, wardens and treasurer.

However, as vestry/PCC member, undoubtedly you will be subjected to more in-depth debating of policies, reading of paperwork, circular discussion and bureaucratic nonsense than any sane person should ever have to do with.

Just think of it as a kind of perverse version of Kipling's 'If'.

If you can sit through three hours of fruitless meandering over the colour of the vestry, without swinging a punch;
if you can listen to the same old problem being raised by the same old people for the fifth, sixth, seventh time that year, without throwing a chair at them;
if you can hear yourself being misunderstood, misjudged and criticised and still see Christ's presence in the person who has just done their best to make you look like either a fool or Satan's henchman
.... then you will be a halfway decent vestry member, my son (or daughter).
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Brenda, it depends. If all the leadership want to talk about is who going to defrost the chicken and rotas then you may as well start hitting yourself on the head with a mallet now. So as to enjoy the sensation when it stops.

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Dude. SOMEBODY has to sweat this stuff so the church can enjoy the chicken and the readers and the intercessors.

Ungrateful bastard.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I guess that is my worry. That I will have to spend vast swathes of scarce time attending meetings about subjects I know nothing about, and can make no contribution to. (I am embarrassingly good at falling asleep to the drone of male voices -- that is why I knit during sermons, because it's preferable to snoring.) To be forced to do something I cannot do is just frustration all around.
I will turn a hand to just about anything, and I am possibly the most creative person you will ever meet, but there is no point in hitching the cat to the hay wagon. Better to let her do her kitty thing and bring you mice.

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But if there is anything you don't follow, make them explain it. That is always a good challenge. If they are boring, tell them to get to the point.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Among other things, ask the person who nominated you why you were nominated, and what the nominating committee sees as your strengths that would be useful to the vestry. That can be illuminating -- including if you find you strenuously disagree with them!

Talk to as many current or former vestry members at your church as you can. What was their experience? What did they like? What did they hate? Would they do it again? Why or why not? If they wouldn't do it again, are they glad they did it once, or do they wish they'd never said Yes?
 

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Posted by Freddy R (# 14391) on :
 
About 30 years ago, I served two 3-year terms on our parish vestry. I found it to be an enjoyable and spiritually rewarding experience. Brenda, I suspect you were nominated because of you have served the parish well in other functions and have exhibited the ability to work together with others. Consider your service to be a form of stewardship and enjoy it!
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
For a couple of years I was on the Vestry of our local church that met monthly. I was nominated Secretary. One month I read the minutes for the meeting two months previously. No one noticed apart from the Vicar.

They were very repetitious meetings.

Huia
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
posted by Anselmina

quote:

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What kind of PCC expects a written report from every member (all 22?)?

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• for some the meetings are a social time versus doing the work
• many times people who agree to be on vestry have limited experience in working via committee
• many priests have limited skills in running meetings**
• often a small group within vestry does all the work, which can annoy if you're one of the busy ones, or if the vestry seems to have an inner circle.
• seemingly very small issues can seem enormous to some not on vestry, thus, it is important to be on a vestry only if the various sensitivities are represented within

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Being not elected four times?

To be serious: I'm sure that a lot of Unsuitable folk get onto Vestries unopposed, either because there are insufficient candidates or because people don't think carefully before they vote ("How can we not vote for that nice Mr. Smith?")

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Exclamation Mark,

1. you're quite right that a good chairman would be able to eliminate persistent offences, such as the ones I named. But even control-freak chairs can't ultimately prevent every instance of time-wasting or unChristian harping, which will occasionally break through. And sadly some get-togethers are almost characterised by these things due to the nature of a meeting designed to permit everyone the opportunity to express their opinion, raise a concern etc.

2. Some church councils (I suppose I'm thinking mainly Anglican here) have rules as to who is allowed to chair - and sometimes getting rid, isn't an option.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
For nuts-and-bolts and practical matters, you might also look up Vital Practices/Vestry Papers from the Episcopal Church Foundation. If you're on Facebook, they provide new resources each month.

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