Thread: There is NOTHING right about this Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
A story this morning - with nothing to recommend it.

Why does ANYONE think that taking a 9YO to a shooting range is reasonable?

Why does ANYONE consider that letting a 9YO have a loaded Uzi - with live bullets - can be justified in any circumstances?

I am struggling to know who is the STUPIDEST here - her parents for letting her be there, the instructor for letting her loose with such a weapon, or the whole gun culture in the US that considers this to be an unfortunate accident, rather than a natural result of letting 9YOs have killing machines.

Seriously, can anyone provide any justification for this having been allowed to happen? Get a fucking grip.
 

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Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 
The whole gun culture in the US is the stupidest.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
I thought you don't do hell.
 

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Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 
But I've been told that I would be happier if I abandoned logic, and just went with something called "emotional intelligence".

So my feeeeeelings led me here...

[ 27. August 2014, 10:32: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
A feeling of passive-aggressiveness?
 

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Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
Oh that poor girl. Imagine having to live with that for the rest of your life.
Parents who do this sort of thing should be....well I don't know what wouldn't make this situation worse for her, but really it is mind-bogglingly stupid of them.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
And the same parents who think it appropriate for a nine year old to use a gun of any kind have probably been staring at screens with images of children holding severed heads and tutting about "uncivilised" people in the middle east.

To allow this wasn't just stupid, it was wicked.
 

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Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :
 
Having recovered from the initial shock, I am inclined to see this as natural selection in action.
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
"Burgers and Bullets" Company Motto; if one don't kill ya the other will.

Too Sad for jokes really. Lord have Mercy.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:
Having recovered from the initial shock, I am inclined to see this as natural selection in action.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Sarchmardo is a complete idiot, and the fact that he is still insisting it is appropriate to use an Uzi as a starter weapon for anyone makes me wonder what planet his brain is on when his mouth is talking.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
Fuck whether it's an Uzi or anything else. I find the whole concept of a "starter weapon" of any description utterly disgusting.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
Fuck whether it's an Uzi or anything else. I find the whole concept of a "starter weapon" of any description utterly disgusting.

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Why? Because people should never start learning to use guns? Or because they should only start when they can handle a full-size gun? Or something else?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:
Having recovered from the initial shock, I am inclined to see this as natural selection in action.

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If it didn't involve mental trauma inflicted on a kid, I might agree.

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

There are no appropriate jokes here. A nine year old will have to go the rest of her life with this. The dead man's family will live with this the rest of theirs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I suspect the reason her parents took her there was not for need to know, but for fun. That may not seem like any better of a reason.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?

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Or any gun for that matter

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
Fuck whether it's an Uzi or anything else. I find the whole concept of a "starter weapon" of any description utterly disgusting.

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Why? Because people should never start learning to use guns? Or because they should only start when they can handle a full-size gun? Or something else?

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People should never start learning to use guns.

They should be illegal outside the military in my view.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Why from prone, no_prophet? Guessing: easier to control?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?

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Or any gun for that matter

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quote:

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Originally posted by saysay:
I don't know why anyone outside of the military needs to learn to handle sub-machine guns.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
start them young

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I don't have the words to describe the stupidity of the parents, the owners of the place, or anyone else involved.

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quote:

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Originally posted by bib:
You have to wonder about the mentality of adults who think it is ok to allow children to use guns. But this is what America seems to want so they get what they deserve I'm afraid.

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More Americans were killed by under 6's finding and playing with guns in the USA than by terrorists last year One was a two year old.

[ 28. August 2014, 12:19: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

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Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I learned to shoot a rifle in Boy Scouts, at age 10. We used single-shot bolt-action 22 rifles, and shot prone at circular targets in a very controlled environment. (We were told when we could enter the area, when we could pick up our guns, when we could start firing, when we had to lay down our guns, etc.) I was neither scarred for life, nor did I become a raving gun lunatic.

But an Uzi? Seriously? It's madness to give a weapon like that to someone who cannot be counted upon to be strong enough to control it.

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What MT said. That was my experience as well, and I agree wholeheartedly about the rank idiocy of handing an Uzi to a 9 year old.

<goes to check my meds - I don't often agree with you on this topic, MT. >
 

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Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What a nonsensical and utterly illogical idea. Many rural people in the US rely on hunting as a source of food - do you think they should starve instead?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
... most of the men in his congregation are armed ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by piglet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
... most of the men in his congregation are armed ...

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So that they can shoot the choir if they don't like the anthem? Or is it so that they can go and hunt their Sunday lunch after the service?

I wouldn't deprive hunters of their guns, assuming that they were stored properly etc., etc., but I'm with Ariel and Spike: I can think of no reason whatsoever why a nine-year-old should be handling any sort of gun. Ever.

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I think it's so, when that crazed, wildly shooting gun man comes in busting into their little church, they will be the hero who saves everyone. Sadly, I think it's a fantasy that lives in the hearts of a lot of gun toting American males.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Just across the river from me is a place where little kidz and their parents can play (under close supervision) with excavators and diggers - and you guys in the US of A let them play with machine guns?

You are stark, staring, mad - and there is a Special Circle In Hell for any adult who introduces a little child to real guns that can kill.......

May God forgive you.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?

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Because she's planning to visit Rotherham?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it's so, when that crazed, wildly shooting gun man comes in busting into their little church, they will be the hero who saves everyone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just across the river from me is a place where little kidz and their parents can play (under close supervision) with excavators and diggers - and you guys in the US of A let them play with machine guns?

You are stark, staring, mad -

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it's so, when that crazed, wildly shooting gun man comes in busting into their little church, they will be the hero who saves everyone.

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Sadly, this is not unheard of. Whilst I share the concern about some who carry, and the reasons they may do so, this one is not entirely unfounded.

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quote:

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In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)? Heck, it was seriously suggested at one point to ban pointy kitchen knives.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)? Heck, it was seriously suggested at one point to ban pointy kitchen knives. Y'all are PC-batshit crazy. Whatever became of the Britain that survived the Blitz?

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal

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quote:

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unless it’s a knife with a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62 cm) or less

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal

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If you are going to berate people for not reading thoroughly, please do not make the same mistake.

quote:

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unless it’s a knife with a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62 cm) or less

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quote:

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Lock knives (knives with blades that can be locked when unfolded) are not folding knives, and are illegal to carry in public without good reason.

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Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However it is difficult to draft a precise law which would not have unintended consequences.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
Yes, I'm aware that someone did shoot up a church one time. I just don't think that the one in a million chance that it's going to happen again, in their particular little church, is a good reason to stay armed 24/7.

Here's some comments on the NRA site about it all.
NRA tweets.
I was sort of scared until I saw the guy calling himself Munch Housen and now I'm really scared.

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet:
In countries where gun control is sensible, knife assaults are more common. There's a debate in my city right now about banning knives because people get stabbed outside of pubs all too often. We're also dealing with people using bear spray on people, which may lead to tighter controls on this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet:
It's not about PC and bats. It's about context, what misbehaviour is occurring and trying to increase public safety.

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet:
Of course one difference between knives and guns is that drive by knifings infrequent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
This suggests the issue might not be firearms, or knives, or whatever the weapon-du-jour might be, but societal issues at large. Why are people so violent?

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn

As you would see. had you bothered to read the thread, plenty of us in the US think handing a child a submachine gun is nuts.

Your anti-US bigotry is unbecoming of a man of the cloth. May God forgive you, as well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn

As you would see. had you bothered to read the thread, plenty of us in the US think handing a child a submachine gun is nuts.

Your anti-US bigotry is unbecoming of a man of the cloth. May God forgive you, as well.

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And a few of us have expressed, on this thread and others through the years, that gun culture in general is abhorrent to them.

If I saw some random Brit on a BBC man on the street interview say this, I would get what he was saying. But when my fellow Shipmates say this, it sends me to the roof, because some of you all have been talking with, praying with, rejoicing with, struggling with, and playing with Americans-- a lot of you on a daily basis-- for almost sixteen fucking years. Hell, Ruth, Laura, and Erin helped fucking build the boards. Ruth ( in particular, along with a few other brave souls) spent the years after 9/11 loudly condemning the scary wave of nationalism that followed-- loudly, consistently, unflinchingly, even as some of her best friends were pretty much laughing at her. That's where her damn avatar title comes from.

And still some of you all ( see how I didn't generalize? Because I'm fucking trying to be fair) would rather reach for the worst, ugliest amorphic stereotype in your cultural kitbag rather than informing that stereotype with people you actually goddamn know.

If a godawful tragedy like this occurred in British soil, you'd have a dozen 'Murricans weeping and praying with you in a heart beat. And you know it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Fair enough. But that law is neither completely good or completely bad.
Yes, knives which lock are safer for the user in many circumstances, but locks also make it easier to stab someone multiple times. Rather nick your fingers or be carried away in ambulance?

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, if you are worried about safety, the basic lock back is one of the least secure locking mechanisms in design and in maintenance.

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Depends on the specifics of the knife. That said, my current personal choice is a liner-lock with a backup safety mechanism called AutoLAWKS. Though I also love the simple ring-locking mechanism of the classic Opinel.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Yeah, dude, sorry, I was picking up where you left off, and in my froth didn't include the provocative quote.
 

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Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 
No worries.
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
But as, someone mentioned earlier, violent crime has been dropping in the developed world.

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quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

People who use knives for their profession are exempt, e.g. chefs, gardeners, and so on.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
But as, someone mentioned earlier, violent crime has been dropping in the developed world.

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Given this, it is even more difficult to justify the NRA machine guns in prams propoganda.
Money is enough justification, I suppose.

ETA: I am not assuming you share their extremism.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
So no. I don't think "why haven't you banned all the guns? Are you Americans barbarians? When are you banning all the guns?" is the right way to proceed, no more than "when are you banning all the cars, you Philistines?" is. Do I think there ought to be licensing, safety, and physical requirements for gun ownership, like there are for car ownership, as well as concepts analogous to street legality and license classes or commercial licenses for gun ownership? Yes. But banning all guns, or branding all gun owners, gun fanciers, or even NRA members as murderous crazies just isn't right.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
I read the story on the BBC's web site and I laughed like a drain.

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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, where is the appropriate place to go through the song and dance about how hundreds of thousands of Americans-- including gun owners-/ can scream and yell about stuff like background checks, but gun lobbyists will cockblock them every time? I found the prospect to exhausting to try in Purg.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IIRC, the NRA lobbied to block mental health checks prior to being allowed to own a gun. And, the congress people who are owned by, erm, influenced by the NRA also tend to vote against mental health funding.

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quote:

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from Wikipedia
Alinsky later threatened a "piss in" at Chicago O'Hare Airport. Alinsky planned to arrange for large numbers of well-dressed African Americans to occupy the urinals and toilets at O'Hare for as long as it took to bring the city to the bargaining table. According to Alinsky, once again the threat alone was sufficient to produce result.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Siegfried:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What a nonsensical and utterly illogical idea. Many rural people in the US rely on hunting as a source of food - do you think they should starve instead?

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I call BS on this claim. Outside of a few remote villages in Alaska, I can find no supporting information that hunting is the primary form of food acquisition in the US. And even there, it's hunting AND fishing, not purely hunting.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
I read the story on the BBC's web site and I laughed like a drain.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
I read the story on the BBC's web site and I laughed like a drain.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
[In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
The only other way to control the population would be to hire professionals to shoot the deer; this would be expensive.

Moo

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
Most people who go hunting could put food on the table without it. However, they enjoy it, the deer population needs to be controlled.
Moo

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
[In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)?

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Carry IN PUBLIC. Read your own links. When's the last time you needed to open mail or slice sausages outside your own home?

Seriously? You wander the streets just itching for the chance to cut through a stray envelope?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Siegfried:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What a nonsensical and utterly illogical idea. Many rural people in the US rely on hunting as a source of food - do you think they should starve instead?

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I call BS on this claim. Outside of a few remote villages in Alaska, I can find no supporting information that hunting is the primary form of food acquisition in the US. And even there, it's hunting AND fishing, not purely hunting.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
[In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)?

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Carry IN PUBLIC. Read your own links. When's the last time you needed to open mail or slice sausages outside your own home?

Seriously? You wander the streets just itching for the chance to cut through a stray envelope?

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I use a folding knife a quite lot. Last week, I freed a crow entangled in string which was twisted round a tree branch. I have repaired radiator hoses, cut cloth for impromptu bandages, removed splinters, opened packages, cut string to bind objects, etc. A knife truly is a useful tool.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
[In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)?

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Carry IN PUBLIC. Read your own links. When's the last time you needed to open mail or slice sausages outside your own home?

Seriously? You wander the streets just itching for the chance to cut through a stray envelope?

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I use a folding knife a quite lot. Last week, I freed a crow entangled in string which was twisted round a tree branch. I have repaired radiator hoses, cut cloth for impromptu bandages, removed splinters, opened packages, cut string to bind objects, etc. A knife truly is a useful tool.

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You've done all these things on public property, I take it? Use on private property is irrelevant.

And what size is your knife?

I'm not arguing that a knife isn't useful. I'm mystified at the implied proposition that nothing else will do. It's not as if laws against knives are drafted WITHOUT thinking of the uses of knives, but that's why they allow ones that are either small blades or not readily concealed.

Half the things everyone is saying they use a knife for, I'm just staring at the screen and asking "have you heard of scissors?". I mean, opening packages? Do you think that the rest of us sit around our offices and homes, despairing because we can't think of a way to open a package?

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I carry a knife with me all the time, in jbohn's pocket.
Quite useful, and versatile, especially when one is out and about. I've seen him use it on public property quite a bit, too. It's a tool, nothing more.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just across the river from me is a place where little kidz and their parents can play (under close supervision) with excavators and diggers - and you guys in the US of A let them play with machine guns?

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it's so, when that crazed, wildly shooting gun man comes in busting into their little church, they will be the hero who saves everyone.

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Sadly, this is not unheard of. Whilst I share the concern about some who carry, and the reasons they may do so, this one is not entirely unfounded.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
You've done all these things on public property, I take it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

And what size is your knife?

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
"have you heard of scissors?".

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However it is difficult to draft a precise law which would not have unintended consequences.

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Which is precisely the point - some in the US are concerned about the "unintended consequences" of further gun control...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
My uncle, for instance, is a perfectly decent human being, and an NRA member. No contradiction there. No, don't say there is to be a smartass. He's a good person. He pays his dues to the NRA. Yes, someone can be both. Don't demonize people because some spokesfolk say nutty things.

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I genuinely thought the NRA was an organisation for batshit crazy, teabagger, lunatic right-wing, violence-worshipping, self-obsessed, whackjob hypocrites. I honestly didn't think that any, well, normal-non-awful people were in it. I'd sort of assumed there might be another gun-owning association where all the non-fuckwits who owned guns congregated.
That's actually quite interesting. It had really and genuinely never occurred to me, which might seem silly. Thank you.

Why do the normal-non-awful people in the NRA let themselves be represented by something that seems so hideously grotesquely twisted? It must be cringeworthy at best any time they see the NRA pop up in the news.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
You want to talk about unintended consequences of laws? Let's start with the current interpretation of the Second Amendment transforming a seemingly reasonable rule about enabling the formation of defence militias into an individualistic right. I bet you the drafters of the Second Amendment had no idea the first half of it would be completely ignored.

Switzerland's system of military service is basically what the USA was supposed to have. Instead you have millions of armed individuals with their own self-interests and zero regard for defending their country.

[ 29. August 2014, 03:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Part of why people haven't up and left the NRA (yes, there are a few other smaller organizations, but…) is that the NRA is the standard. They certify range instructors, set the standards for targets in the States, determine the curriculum (such as it is) for concealed carry permits, have ranges and training centers throughout the country, and do a bit of genuinely non-nutty legislative action and lobbying. There are very real and compelling reasons to belong to the NRA even if you think open carry is nuts and would never dream of packing heat in a bar or a church.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Yes. Mr. Lamb went to get certified as a range safety officer (Boy Scouts) and the only way to do it was through a program that involved joining the NRA. (I'm tediously trying to explain to him why wearing the baseball cap they gave him in public would not be a good look.
 

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Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
LC:
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
I read the story on the BBC's web site and I laughed like a drain.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

I do, BTW, accept that there are many Americans who oppose the gun culture there. Good on you. Now get it changed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?

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Because she's planning to visit Rotherham?

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Which is the gun-lobby argument, that the more guns, the safer everyone is. In other words, UTTER CRAP.

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You are right. I was trying to get all my rage into one line. It didn't work. Sorry.
 

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Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Carry IN PUBLIC. Read your own links. When's the last time you needed to open mail or slice sausages outside your own home? Seriously? You wander the streets just itching for the chance to cut through a stray envelope?

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
The subject of the bit you quote was somebody saving the day by being a gun-toting hero. What you gave evidence of is people shooting up places of worship. Do you have a case of someone stopping a shooting spree at a church with another gun? If not, then, no, this is not "not unheard of."

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quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One can debate whether the knife laws in the UK are too draconian or not. But I object to the post which said 'Whatever became of the Britain that survived the Blitz?'

This is just a fucking stupid comment, as if Brits are all pussies now, because we got fed up with kids getting killed by knives. We should be tougher than that, eh, what's a few dead kids to worry about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
OK I have penciled that in for next Tuesday, it all should be sorted out then.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

I do, BTW, accept that there are many Americans who oppose the gun culture there. Good on you. Now get it changed.

---

OK I have penciled that in for next Tuesday, it all should be sorted out then.

Personally, when I have talked about rape culture, I don't think I have said I expected any one guy to sort it out himself. I have suggested guys who speak up have more impact than they think. Why are you shitting all over those who do speak up about gun control?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
OK I have penciled that in for next Tuesday, it all should be sorted out then.

---

What's wrong with Monday?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
jbohn

No problems, mate, it's a difficult issue, and I don't think anybody knows what the solution is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
What's wrong with Monday?

---

Monday is Labor Day -- major holiday, signals the end of summer. We'll be busy eating barbecue.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
It did strike me that if this girl had been hurt playing on a trampoline, the parents would undoubtedly have sued the manufacturer of the trampoline for not warning them that it was bouncy. I really cannot understand how a country that seems intent on suing the shit out of everything can still support children using live machine guns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
It did strike me that if this girl had been hurt playing on a trampoline, the parents would undoubtedly have sued the manufacturer of the trampoline for not warning them that it was bouncy. I really cannot understand how a country that seems intent on suing the shit out of everything can still support children using live machine guns.

---

I never cease to surprised by how much Brits and Canadians think they know about the United States as compared to what they actually know about the United States. The same people calling for more gun control have no problem with suing gun manufacturers for every injury caused by a firearm. On the other hand, the people who want no gun control whatsoever support tort reform. Not true for every single American (what with there being 320 million of us and all) but it serves as a good rule of thumb.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:
I apologise if this post comes across as insulting or patronising; that is not my intention but this is one of those things that, while I sort of understand it intellectually, makes no sense at all at a deeper level.

Opinion poll after opinion poll shows that the majority of the American people, even the majority of NRA members, believe that the current regulations on gun ownership are too lax. But the elected representatives of these people will not pass any laws tightening gun control because they believe that they will not be re-elected if they do.

To me, that makes as much sense as thinking that a 9 year old girl with an Uzi could be part of a well-regulated militia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
And one thing Brits are good at is getting on their high horses and lecturing others, especially their colonies, about the Way It's Done in Proper Civilized Places.

See what I did there? I just took an unfair generalization and applied it to a whole group of people. Why don't you give this whole "apology" thing another shot, and see if you can do it without insulting anyone this time around?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:


In that case, there does not seem to be an easy solution to getting federal legislation through does there (for those who view that as desirable)? .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However it is difficult to draft a precise law which would not have unintended consequences.

---

Which is precisely the point - some in the US are concerned about the "unintended consequences" of further gun control...

---

And what exactly would those unintended consequences? And would they be any worse than the ACTUAL consequences of lax gun control?

I really hope that sooner or later, Americans decide that it's worth taking a chance on the black helicopters, because they are actually less scary than a 9-year-old girl killing an Irag & Afghanistan veteran.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
hmmm... I'm American, and I'd say you're missing a step here. The people who support tort reform (i.e. limits on consumer products liability) are all for that until they have a problem. It's much like small government-- ya want small government/low taxes, but don't ya dare cut my medicare/ social security/ crop subsidy/ cherished "entitlement". Similarly, tort reform is the desired end goal but should not impede your ability to sue for $millions of pain & suffering when you're too drunk to not burn yourself drinking McD's coffee.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
hmmm... I'm American, and I'd say you're missing a step here. The people who support tort reform (i.e. limits on consumer products liability) are all for that until they have a problem. It's much like small government-- ya want small government/low taxes, but don't ya dare cut my medicare/ social security/ crop subsidy/ cherished "entitlement". Similarly, tort reform is the desired end goal but should not impede your ability to sue for $millions of pain & suffering when you're too drunk to not burn yourself drinking McD's coffee.

---

I call bullshit on large numbers of people like this existing.

---

quote:

---

"We just want to make sure they understand that we know it was a tragic accident and that it's something that we're all going to have to live with," Vacca's 19-year-old daughter, Ashley, told NBC's "Today" show.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by JoannaP:
Introducing controls on donations on election campaigns and political advertising, such as we have in the UK (which superficially looks like a good thing from here), is as likely as adopting our gun control regime.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I'm a Brit and I carry a Swiss Army knife....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbohn:
The subject of the bit you quote was somebody saving the day by being a gun-toting hero. What you gave evidence of is people shooting up places of worship. Do you have a case of someone stopping a shooting spree at a church with another gun? If not, then, no, this is not "not unheard of."

---

---

From the second link I posted (the Colorado church shooting):

"Later that afternoon, he attacked the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, with a number of firearms, killing two more people and injuring three before being shot and wounded by a member of the church's congregation; he then committed suicide.[7]" (Emphasis mine)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:
I apologise if this post comes across as insulting or patronising; that is not my intention but this is one of those things that, while I sort of understand it intellectually, makes no sense at all at a deeper level.

Opinion poll after opinion poll shows that the majority of the American people, even the majority of NRA members, believe that the current regulations on gun ownership are too lax. But the elected representatives of these people will not pass any laws tightening gun control because they believe that they will not be re-elected if they do.

To me, that makes as much sense as thinking that a 9 year old girl with an Uzi could be part of a well-regulated militia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Make no mistake about it. A majority of Americans do not want laws anything like the ones in the UK or Australia. All the NRA has to do is convince people that gun control supporters want to gradually place more and more restrictions on firearms until eventually the federal government decides to start confiscating people's guns. So, the NRA will oppose every single piece of gun control legislation proposed. Michael Bloomberg becoming the public face of gun control makes the NRA's job even easier.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Because their primary constituency are fucking lunatics. I doubt very much that the majority of non-gun-nut Americans buy into the slippery-slope-to-gunless-Armageddon bullshit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
I carry a Swiss Army Knife with me. The largest blade, which I very rarely use, is about 3"".

It's a useful bit of kit.

Anything can be used as a weapon. I could kill someone with the 1.5" blade. I won't though.

It isn't the knife or the gun. It is the person wielding it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

If the US wants to stop sacrificing its own people then they need to remove the weapons from the dimwits. A gun instructor who gives an Uzi to a 9 year old is clearly a dimwit and has no business being near a gun. Evolution in action.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by romanlion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I'm a Brit and I carry a Swiss Army knife....

---

The Brit that cut Foley's head off carries a bigger knife than you.

You should consider a sword, the way things are going in your country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
Guns are the abortion of the right. You know how when anyone mentions any further restrictions on abortion portions of the left go batshit and oppose even reasonable restrictions on the basis that any restriction is a step towards overturning Roe v Wade? The NRA tend to get that way about guns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Nation Debates Extremely Complex Issue of Children Firing Military Weapons

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
Sorry, ss that was too harsh. This country is changing thank God and I'll be patient. No reason to be rude , though,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by romanlion:


You should consider a sword, the way things are going in your country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
It did strike me that if this girl had been hurt playing on a trampoline, the parents would undoubtedly have sued the manufacturer of the trampoline for not warning them that it was bouncy. I really cannot understand how a country that seems intent on suing the shit out of everything can still support children using live machine guns.

---

I never cease to surprised by how much Brits and Canadians think they know about the United States as compared to what they actually know about the United States. The same people calling for more gun control have no problem with suing gun manufacturers for every injury caused by a firearm. On the other hand, the people who want no gun control whatsoever support tort reform. Not true for every single American (what with there being 320 million of us and all) but it serves as a good rule of thumb.

---

hmmm... I'm American, and I'd say you're missing a step here. The people who support tort reform (i.e. limits on consumer products liability) are all for that until they have a problem. It's much like small government-- ya want small government/low taxes, but don't ya dare cut my medicare/ social security/ crop subsidy/ cherished "entitlement". Similarly, tort reform is the desired end goal but should not impede your ability to sue for $millions of pain & suffering when you're too drunk to not burn yourself drinking McD's coffee.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
And one thing Brits are good at is getting on their high horses and lecturing others, especially their colonies, about the Way It's Done in Proper Civilized Places.

See what I did there? I just took an unfair generalization and applied it to a whole group of people. Why don't you give this whole "apology" thing another shot, and see if you can do it without insulting anyone this time around?

---

Well, it's not a generalisation that is inaccurate.

The problem is you don't fucking listen!

It's because we in Britain CARE. Like any parent does when their children leave home, we still care. You may have left "home" (The Empire) but we still care and will continue to offer good advice. Pity you kids don't listen to your elders and betters. Oh well, you'll figure it out I'm sure but we've seen it all before.
 

---

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
On behalf of all Brits, I would like to apologise. What can I say? I think he thinks he's being funny.
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
On behalf of all Brits, I would like to apologise. What can I say? I think he thinks he's being funny.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I should point out that I have had a discussion with Kelly Alves, clarifying what I meant. We have come to a conclusion best summarised in the words of my best friend*

"Cat - you are a fucking idiot"

Which I think sums the situation up completely.

*Imaginary, of course. I don't have any real friends. Going for the sympathy vote now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
On behalf of all Brits, I would like to apologise. What can I say? I think he thinks he's being funny.

---

ALL Brits? Since when do you have a mandate to speak for ALL British people? You don't speak for ALL of anything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I'm a Brit and I carry a Swiss Army knife camping, hiking or when we're doing outside stuff with Girl Guides. I don't carry it into inner city London working with teenagers. The difference between hiking and camping is that a Swiss Army knife is a nice handy bit of kit that provides a lot of useful tools, even when it's only got a knife on it, in a form that fits neatly into a pocket and means you don't need to carry scissors and all the other specialist tools you might need in those situations.

And I grew up with guns too. Didn't really get into shooting, but I have done a whole lot of beating. I was taught to use a rifle prone before I was 16. We ate an fair amount of rabbit, pheasant, deer* and other shot food growing up. Just because most Brits don't see or handle guns doesn't mean that there isn't a gun culture here too.

* Legally - usually going out to shoot the deer we'd seen that had been badly poached and had a injured haunch, at the farmer's request, often as the spare person to drive it or help carry home.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
hmmm... I'm American, and I'd say you're missing a step here. The people who support tort reform (i.e. limits on consumer products liability) are all for that until they have a problem. It's much like small government-- ya want small government/low taxes, but don't ya dare cut my medicare/ social security/ crop subsidy/ cherished "entitlement". Similarly, tort reform is the desired end goal but should not impede your ability to sue for $millions of pain & suffering when you're too drunk to not burn yourself drinking McD's coffee.

---

Re the McDonalds coffee suing, the coffee in question was
superheated and the woman got 3rd-degree burns on her crotch, requiring skin grafts (I don't think she was drunk). I'm a Brit and I would have sued the hell out of McDonalds for that, and I hate it when it's used as a 'stupid Americans lol' argument.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Since you fully stated the premise of the lawsuit,including the defendant,it's weird you say you weren't referencing it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(Shrug) perhaps you should't specifically reference stuff you don't intent to specifically reference.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

But let us unite, brother, on a topic i know we agree upon-- saysay is a complacent, sneering, self impressed jackass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
.But let us unite, brother, on a topic i know we agree upon-- saysay is a complacent, sneering, self impressed jackass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

Out of curiosity, are you planning to have me beaten or arrested because I hurt your feelings? Because I'd like to be able to plan my day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re the McDonalds coffee suing, the coffee in question was
superheated and the woman got 3rd-degree burns on her crotch, requiring skin grafts (I don't think she was drunk). I'm a Brit and I would have sued the hell out of McDonalds for that, and I hate it when it's used as a 'stupid Americans lol' argument.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

Out of curiosity, are you planning to have me beaten or arrested because I hurt your feelings? Because I'd like to be able to plan my day.

---

That ain't my thing, but we have plenty of specialty venues that will accommodate you if you are into that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re the McDonalds coffee suing, the coffee in question was
superheated and the woman got 3rd-degree burns on her crotch, requiring skin grafts (I don't think she was drunk). I'm a Brit and I would have sued the hell out of McDonalds for that, and I hate it when it's used as a 'stupid Americans lol' argument.

---

Oh God thank you. I hate having to explain that damn story that just keeps going and going and going. I'm used to it more in the US as a "stupid entitled people lol" thing from mainly right-wingers who think corporations should have no responsibilities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re the McDonalds coffee suing, the coffee in question was
superheated and the woman got 3rd-degree burns on her crotch, requiring skin grafts (I don't think she was drunk). I'm a Brit and I would have sued the hell out of McDonalds for that, and I hate it when it's used as a 'stupid Americans lol' argument.

---

Oh God thank you. I hate having to explain that damn story that just keeps going and going and going. I'm used to it more in the US as a "stupid entitled people lol" thing from mainly right-wingers who think corporations should have no responsibilities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

And neither seem to be the product of any moral stance, it seems to be who is in bed with who.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It's perfectly fine for retailers to sell coffee as hot as or hotter than the coffee that burned the woman in question.

---

As it should be. It's a bad thing to be handed scalding hot coffee when you're not expecting it. It is, however, a good thing to be able to purchase a scalding hot beverage if you want one, and it is also always a bloody stupid thing to put any kind of hot beverage in your crotch.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ooo, so is this where I point out they asked for a cup holder and weren't given one? and the car they had was an older model that didn't have cup holders?

Or maybe we should go back to the OP.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I can't remember where it was, but somewhere in the USA gave me coffee that was impossible to hold for more than a couple of seconds. Just getting it over to the side where the milk and sugar were took a deep breath and some mind-over-matter concentration.

You're not just a gun culture, you're a scaldingly hot crappy-tasting coffee culture.

[ 31. August 2014, 01:04: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh, go snog a wallaby.

But I'm gonna agree that I have gone to places where I can't hold a coffee cup without burning myself through the paper. meaning, the walk to the place where you get the cup sleeves leaves me with burnt fingers, unless I set the cup down on shelves or other patron's tables along the way.Oh, but that must be my fault for not walking around with potholders.

[ 31. August 2014, 01:15: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh and your description reminds me of that psycho G. Gordon Liddy sticking his hand in a Zippo flame. "the trick is not minding it."

See that is the kind of cultural icons the radical right hands us, people who declare one is a straight up pussy unless one hand-dips one's mug in a boiling vat to get one's coffee.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, go snog a wallaby.

---

You might be surprised where that happens.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
WOW, you came up with that video in a flash, dude! How many times have you clicked Replay? Just today?
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
WOW, you came up with that video in a flash, dude!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It's perfectly fine for retailers to sell coffee as hot as or hotter than the coffee that burned the woman in question.

---

As it should be. It's a bad thing to be handed scalding hot coffee when you're not expecting it. It is, however, a good thing to be able to purchase a scalding hot beverage if you want one, and it is also always a bloody stupid thing to put any kind of hot beverage in your crotch.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, go snog a wallaby.

---

You might be surprised where that happens.

---

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE


 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
See that is the kind of cultural icons the radical right hands us, people who declare one is a straight up pussy unless one hand-dips one's mug in a boiling vat to get one's coffee.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

You're not just a gun culture, you're a scaldingly hot crappy-tasting coffee culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

You're not just a gun culture, you're a scaldingly hot crappy-tasting coffee culture.

---

I take offence at the "crappy-tasting!" I love the taste of McDonald's coffee and out of deep respect for my age and wisdom they sell it to me for only 50 cents. But it is dangerously hot and the woman was right to sue. I buy it, place it carefully in my cup holder, go shopping, return to my car, and drink it -- still a little too hot.
------------------

I also take offence at being asked to join a lynch mob against Saysay. I think she's one of the more respectful and polite shipmates.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
...it doesn't mean I don't still hate you all...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
So then, not even a plurality of the links you posted actually said what you claimed? And you're positing this as disproving my point. Really.

---

You asked for, and I quote, "a case". I gave you one - from the links you implied did not contain one. End of. Though I understand that this information doesn't support your outrage and hysteria, and will thus be ignored. Whatever. Go pound sand.
 

---

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Posting to rage about this, if you are going to carry a concealed weapon - do it somewhere a two year old can't find.

Fucking tragic.

How do you recover from shooting your mother ?
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Awful for the child and the rest of the family: the mother seems to have brought it upon herself.
 

---

Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
It begs the question, why was the safety off? Are you going to tell me that the 2 y.o. took the safety off before firing? Because, if you do, I'm going to ask how come it was that easy to take off?

But then I'm a Brit. I just don't understand why the need to carry concealed, loaded, weapons with the safety catch off.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Obviously the safety shouldn't have been off. And I know v. little about guns and can't say how easy it would be for a two year old to disengage.

And this is total speculation, but...

you know, it really isn't normal for women to carry loaded guns in their purses to Walmart, mythology about the US notwithstanding. Makes me wonder if she had a violent ex after her. Because I've seen those situations, and that is the only case in which I can even imagine myself carrying a loaded weapon. Because orders of protection here aren't worth a shit.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I've only heard a brief radio account. Somewhere in my reactions, too, was "she brought it on herself". But yeah, she might have been in danger; she might have been so busy with all her kids that she just didn't/couldn't think; and maybe she even forgot it was in her purse. (Not a parent; but I know it can make you scattered and crazed, no matter how much you love your kids. Then there's the matter of how much stuff many of us keep in our purses.)

As to the safety, little kids like to play with things, and can figure out a lot. I'm not familiar with gun safetys, but that's one of the few things I'd like to learn about guns--where the safety is, how to tell if it's on, and how to put it on. If for no other reason that I might get confronted with a gun, some time.

It reminds me of a TV show that's periodically haunted me since childhood. It was one of those Sunday morning religious/spiritual shows that the broadcast networks used to run. (Maybe it was required, like the requirement to show some loosely educational shows?)

Anyway, it was a drama that went something like this: Young boy (grade school age) with gun confronts his mom, who's sitting on the living room couch. Boy is furious and bitter at her. IIRC, his brother had died, and he blamed his mom. She tried to lovingly explain that it wasn't like that. He shot her. The story ended there, but there was probably some mini-sermon afterwards.

I hope someone gets that poor boy and his siblings into therapy right away. (He's young, but could probably at least to play therapy, and get some of the horror and confusion out.) And if there's a father in their lives, him, too.


 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
I was about to berate DT for thread necromancy. However, we are on topic, and there indeed is nothing right about this.

Carry on, people. Carry on.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
LC--

Re not being normal to carry concealed guns into Walmart: yeah, but this was in Idaho, and there are some extreme right-wing folks there. White supremacists, too.

Note to any Idahoans: I did say "some".

[ 30. December 2014, 22:47: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

---

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 
Would someone in some English-speaking country kindly offer me a job so I can emigrate there?

I'm a little past it for sheer physical/manual labor, but my communication skills are reasonably good (in American English), my hygiene is reasonable, and I do have some manners (Americans' reputations for this sort of thing notwithstanding), and I'm a pretty fast study.

Seriously, why the hell am I living in a country where a 2-y.o. kills his/her mother with the mother's own gun?

What IS this place? How did we get here? How do we get out?
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Porridge:
my communication skills are reasonably good (in American English)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Palimpsest:
What the newspaper article didn't say was that it happened in front of her other children. I'm amazed the toddler didn't shoot himself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Porridge:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Palimpsest:
What the newspaper article didn't say was that it happened in front of her other children. I'm amazed the toddler didn't shoot himself.

---

Dear Lord; I hadn't heard that. I can only hope the child is too young to understand what it's done.

---

It won't be forever.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Went looking to see what the crazier end of the US gun rights spectrum thought of the situation. Found Patriot Wire--and believe it or not, they have the sense to say keep guns away from kids. (Some of the front page stories there... )
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Found a group called Moms Demand Action For Gun Sense In America (MDA). Kind of like Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD). Their news page hasn't caught up with this story yet, but there's some good stuff.
 

---

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Went looking to see what the crazier end of the US gun rights spectrum thought of the situation. Found Patriot Wire--and believe it or not, they have the sense to say keep guns away from kids. (Some of the front page stories there... )

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Went looking to see what the crazier end of the US gun rights spectrum thought of the situation. Found Patriot Wire--and believe it or not, they have the sense to say keep guns away from kids. (Some of the front page stories there... )

---

And, worse yet, the NSFW ads at the bottom. I really hope those are just because whatever spyware they use to stalk me thinks I have the same interests and appetites as the "typical" least common denominator late 20's hetero/cis male, but that's worse than what I see on sporting websites.

Also, you made me click on patriotnews. Now I'm really scared of what Google thinks I'm interested in, or that this is going to haunt my future run for Congress more than all the socialist claptrap I've been spouting to family members while visiting.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Went looking to see what the crazier end of the US gun rights spectrum thought of the situation. Found Patriot Wire--and believe it or not, they have the sense to say keep guns away from kids. (Some of the front page stories there... )

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You did read the previous page of this thread? I'd put good money on her having a violent ex. Sadly, carrying a gun is the only way to have a chance against some of these people, particularly if you have children in danger with you. Because our protection system sucks (read: is basically nonexistent).

None of which excuses letting a two yo within grabbing distance of a gun, of course.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You did read the previous page of this thread? I'd put good money on her having a violent ex.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
She's dead. Must she be automatically judged as stupid too?

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Originally posted by L'organist:
Reading news reports we can learn the following:

1. She was not in an abusive relationship - she and her husband of 5 years were visiting relatives for Christmas.

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According to the Washington Post, she received the purse, which had a special zippered compartment to hold a concealed weapon, as a Christmas gift from her husband last week.
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
So it seems like the "handbag" in question was a special purse designed for the concealed carry of a handgun (so the gun wasn't kicking around in the bottom of a purse with a bunch of other random objects.) It was a Christmas gift to the mother, so she wasn't familiar with it, and probably didn't have the habit of controlling its positioning that she would have developed over time - she was probably treating it as a regular purse, rather than a purse-cum-holster.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
L'Organist--

Why in the world would being married mean that she wasn't in an abusive relationship? And why would post-death compliments from her in-laws mean they really believed that?



I have no idea what was going on in her life. But the idea that being married means not being abused is boggling.

[ 31. December 2014, 19:11: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

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Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Mistakes happen. Sometimes you forget to set the safety catch. Sometimes you deliberately leave it off, because a mass shooter isn't going to politely put down his gun to let you take it off.

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Originally posted by QLib:
There is no need to locate the stupidity in the individual. It takes a whole culture to be that stupid - by which I mean gun culture, not American culture.

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Nice try, and thanks for that. But this American begins to wonder if there's a difference, and where it lies.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
(NOTE: the following isn't directed at anyone from the Idaho family.)

To give you an idea of how...dedicated...some of the extreme gun rights folks are:

Several years ago, some of them were doing "open carry" of (supposedly) unloaded guns. I think there was a legal loophole, or something. Lots of TV news of people wearing guns, standing in line at Starbuck's. I think there were problems when businesses tried to ban guns on their premises. Whole thing freaked people out. The legislature banned open carry, except in certain cases.

As of April 2014, there's a push to allow open carry again. Some states do allow it. OTOH, the NRA is *against* it, and caught some flack for its stance.

To any open carry folks reading this: Get rid of the damn guns. If you won't, then build yourself another Westworld. Make it for ages 21 and over. Leave your kids with a responsible adult, one you've designated to be a long-term guardian if anything happens to you. Then take your guns and ammo (yes, you'll have loaded open carry!) and go off to Westworld. And leave the rest of us alone.

 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Sorry, left out that the open carry was here in Northern California.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
What I find depressing is that we seem to revisit this particular debate with monotonous regularity - individuals from more 'civilised' nations observing (in varying degrees of stridency) that, "you cannot allow this situation to continue" and being met with variations on the theme of, "you will take our guns from our cold, dead, hands" - which merely sets the scene for the next such incident.

Congratulations, United States of America.

Sooner or later, somebody is going to have to grasp the nettle and put a stop to the sorry business. Unless, of course, you actually like incidents such as commemorated in this thread. In which case, I'm none to sure that I want you as neighbours, even at 3000 miles remove.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Ok, Shipmates (TTBOMK) haven't generally said that in an approving way, Darllenwr. But "from my cold, dead hands" *is* the way many *other* Americans feel about their guns.

From what I know, it's complicated. Part of it is our American mythology: manifest destiny, pioneers, Old West, rugged individualism, "my home is my castle", "get the hell off my land", anti-governmentalism, and interpretations of that pesky Second Amendment to the US Constitution. Trying to ditch that will never work. But we *might* be able to tack on "And then...".

As to gun regulation: people have tried, over and over, to get it and make it stick. But legislators have voters, and many of them are pro-gun. Plus many legislators are in the pocket of the gun lobby. And then there are all the hate groups, militias, etc.

I don't know of any way to simply remove most of our gun culture. I can think of two things that might help: 1) the NRA saying, "Enough is enough! Things have got to change NOW" and making that commitment stick; and 2) some sort of anti-gun social media campaign going viral, kind of like the bucket of water charity campaign--maybe people could turn their guns in. Except turn-in programs generally involve giving guns to the police, and with the feelings about police right now...


 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Why in the world would being married mean that she wasn't in an abusive relationship?

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Originally posted by Porridge:
I don't understand that any better than I understand why this woman was apparently habituated to carrying a gun in her purse.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I wasn't spinning what-ifs. I was just reacting to the plain statement that we know she wasn't being abused because she was married. That's all.

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Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Sooner or later, somebody is going to have to grasp the nettle and put a stop to the sorry business. Unless, of course, you actually like incidents such as commemorated in this thread. In which case, I'm none to sure that I want you as neighbours, even at 3000 miles remove.

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Surely recent history has shown that enough Americans are prepared to accept the risk of incidents like this rather than accept any restriction of their 'God-given liberties'.
 

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Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 
orfeo:

The link to the "inside story" above shows a sadly different picture of people NOT trying to make sense. I guess that's what it takes to be a "gun culture."

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Sandow told The Post she often sees people with a gun cradled at their side. “In Idaho, we don’t have to worry about a lot of crime and things like that,” she said. “And to see someone with a gun isn’t bizarre. [Veronica] wasn’t carrying a gun because she felt unsafe. She was carrying a gun because she was raised around guns. This was just a horrible accident.”

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
However, tracing causation with such stats is notoriously difficult; for example, it's said that crime across Europe is falling now, but nobody really knows why, (also true in the US I think).

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Because cuts in policing, so more no-criming and less investigation.

Though murders are easier to track.

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No: things like the British Crime Surevy are also showing falling crime rates.
I have heard that abortion thing suggested: also that - where property crimes are concerned- things like better car security systems and the cheapness of new consumer goods (so that the bottom has dropped out of the stolen goods market) have reduced opportunities for 'entry level' crime and made most burglaries etc not really worthwhile. But I don't think anyone has an explanation for the fall in violent crime.

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
However, tracing causation with such stats is notoriously difficult; for example, it's said that crime across Europe is falling now, but nobody really knows why, (also true in the US I think).

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As far as violent crime goes, I'd vote for banning tetraethyl lead, combined with increased sales of video game consoles.

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
However, tracing causation with such stats is notoriously difficult; for example, it's said that crime across Europe is falling now, but nobody really knows why, (also true in the US I think).

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As far as violent crime goes, I'd vote for banning tetraethyl lead, combined with increased sales of video game consoles.

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It's slightly entertaining to think about what is wrong with that analysis. I note the violent crimes per 100,000 line disappears in 2004. One would expect that they have the last 10 years data after all. Or is it that the plummeting trend in tetraethyl lead isn't matched by a more modest decrease in crime rates.

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There's no basis for any lag really unless a large amount of crime is committed in a 1-year age band.

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Originally posted by Dave W.:
As for treating it too seriously - why? Is there something else that makes you find the whole argument implausible?

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Originally posted by Dave W.:
After all, they're not claiming TEL is solely responsible for all crime.

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by Dave W.:
As for treating it too seriously - why? Is there something else that makes you find the whole argument implausible?

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Yes;

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Originally posted by Dave W.:
After all, they're not claiming TEL is solely responsible for all crime.

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Crime in a society is so hugely multifactorial that it seems fanciful one could detect a correlation with a single cause in this way. And human behaviour so complex it seems equally fanciful that one agent could have such a consistent and precise an effect.

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And by the way one can't really be testing a hypothesis by looking for correlation if one says "look, a correlation" when the two go together and "oh well, there are other causes" when the two don't.

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Whatever the argument, it isn't appropriate to censor the last 10 years data, especially if it's the least convenient bit of the data for the hypothesis.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
Crime in a society is so hugely multifactorial that it seems fanciful one could detect a correlation with a single cause in this way. And human behaviour so complex it seems equally fanciful that one agent could have such a consistent and precise an effect.

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Originally posted by Dave W:
Fair enough - I've been known to argue from personal incredulity myself. But do you have specific objections to the elements of the argument, though?

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Originally posted by Dave W.:
I believe I was agreeing with you that the effect of lead probably shouldn't be expected to look exactly like the TEL curve with a simple 23 year shift; the seeming appearance of a very close match may well be spurious, but it hardly invalidates the concept.

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by mdijon:
Crime in a society is so hugely multifactorial that it seems fanciful one could detect a correlation with a single cause in this way. And human behaviour so complex it seems equally fanciful that one agent could have such a consistent and precise an effect.

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Originally posted by Dave W:
Fair enough - I've been known to argue from personal incredulity myself. But do you have specific objections to the elements of the argument, though?

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It was a bit more reasoned than just unjustified personal incredulity.

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I don't feel any need to go through the specifics that someone proposing the argument would need to check to show it was plausible on those grounds.

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It's almost certainly spurious. It isn't remotely plausible that the rise from 5 to 25 crimes per 100 thousand over 30 years of cultural, societal, law enforcement and government change can be associated specifically with a single environmental pollutant out of all that complexity.

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Your position is perfectly understandable.
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

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Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't say it was entirely unjustified

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't say it was entirely unjustified

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But can you engage with it? Or just say "that's your opinion" and leave it at that. Do you actually think the proposed link is plausible?

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Originally posted by mdijon:
And human behaviour so complex it seems equally fanciful that one agent could have such a consistent and precise an effect.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, human behaviour is complex. It's complex because it's the complex interaction of a very large number of factors.

But you seem to be saying that for some reason this means that the effect of any one factor is also complex. And that's just nonsense.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
However add in all the other cancers which are less related to smoking

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I still don't think you really understand your own argument. Because this isn't about trying to prove whether smoking causes lung cancer, it's about already knowing that it does and observing how gradual removal of that cause affects overall outcomes.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
Two lines on a graph

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Originally posted by mdijon:
Two lines on a graph: one for all violent crime cases, one for lead pollution 23yrs ago, no adjusting for age, no further subcategorization of crime, no other societal trends... what would you call it if not crude?

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