Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:Can't even get basic formatting and prepositions right. The English version is "until 21/3", just FYI.
Originally posted by Porridge:
through 3/21
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:Can't even get basic formatting and prepositions right. The English version is "until 21/3", just FYI.
Originally posted by Porridge:
through 3/21
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:Don't get out much, do you?
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:Can't even get basic formatting and prepositions right. The English version is "until 21/3", just FYI.
Originally posted by Porridge:
through 3/21
quote:Having met a good number of your countrymen, I'm not sure I wish to aspire to your standards of 'normal'.
Originally posted by orfeo:
I do confess, the couple of times I crossed northwards during my North American trip in 2013, I basically went "Oh yay, normal people!". But then it turned out that folks were pretty sane in New England and Seattle as well, so it's not like it's fair to generalise about the whole country.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:The US and much of Canada (in particular, newspapers and "long date" displays by MS programs) use MMDD formatting.
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:Can't even get basic formatting and prepositions right. The English version is "until 21/3", just FYI.
Originally posted by Porridge:
through 3/21
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:Actually, I (a US citizen) have worried in the past about a scary global right-wing shift I've perceived over the last decade or so, and wondered quite seriously if it was GW Bush's fault somehow. (Or Cheney's, etc.)
Originally posted by Stetson:
I had to really roll my eyes a few weeks back when Bree attributed the bad First Nations policies of the current government to the influence of American-style "Republican" values infesting Canada under Harper, when anyone with a cursory knowledge of the history knows that Canadian and British colonial governments have been shitting on aboriginals since time in memorial, with little or no help from the Americans.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:Nope. It is incorrect in Canada to use MMDD. Officially it's YYYY-MM-DD, but with the creeping Americanisation of MMDD, it creates terrible confusion, because we don't know if 04/03 (4/3) is April 03 or March 04. So I don't allow it in my office. Most sensible people do not use it. To completely end ambiguity, 04 Mar 2015 is what I use in writing, and numerically 2015.03.04 is what the computer does. I prefer dots to slashes, and with Linux anything is possible.
The US and much of Canada (in particular, newspapers and "long date" displays by MS programs) use MMDD formatting.
quote:What leads you to the conclusion that it's a spoof of facile anti-Americanism, rather than just an example of facile anti-Americanism?
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Thunderbunk's post is intended as a joke, it's a spoof piece of facile anti Americanism.
quote:The Hell hosts might not enjoy this tangent (sorry guys
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:Nope. It is incorrect in Canada to use MMDD. Officially it's YYYY-MM-DD, but with the creeping Americanisation of MMDD, it creates terrible confusion, because we don't know if 04/03 (4/3) is April 03 or March 04. So I don't allow it in my office. Most sensible people do not use it. To completely end ambiguity, 04 Mar 2015 is what I use in writing, and numerically 2015.03.04 is what the computer does. I prefer dots to slashes, and with Linux anything is possible.
The US and much of Canada (in particular, newspapers and "long date" displays by MS programs) use MMDD formatting.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
) but here goes: how does the YYYY-MM-DD English speaking world say "04 Mar 2015"? "Four March 2015" or "Fourth of March 2015" or in some other way? Thanks.
quote:You might be able to pin the internationalization of neo-liberal economics on the American right, but even there, Margaret Thatcher was at least as much of a precusor as Ronald Reagan.
Actually, I (a US citizen) have worried in the past about a scary global right-wing shift I've perceived over the last decade or so, and wondered quite seriously if it was GW Bush's fault somehow. (Or Cheney's, etc.)
It would be so convenient to have one super-villain or Illuminati-like group to blame.
quote:What about how fat we are? It will ruin my whole stereotype of people who stereotype Americans if he doesn't say anything about how fat we are?
Originally posted by Porridge:
Here’s my challenge: you seem to board Ship with something to say at the rate of a couple of posts roughly every other day. Can you maintain that posting pattern for two full weeks – through 3/21 – without once trashing the US, its people, history, culture, politics, geography, cuisine, nicotine preferences, TV shows, educational system, fashion sense, business ethics, religious sensibilities, criminal justice activities, sexual antics, public libraries, lawn-mowing habits, hairstyles, shoe sizes, table manners, municipal architecture, highway signs, nuptial customs, pigeons, taste in buttons, maple-syrup-collecting methods, knot-tying skills, voting booth construction, scout training, fishing practices, monetary engraving, embroidery techniques, the manufacture of US nose-hair trimmers (together with anything else you despise about your southern neighbor along with, by implication, all your US Shipmates) during that brief period?
quote:I say "oh-four march twenty fifteen", though it's also common to say 2015 as two fifteen here. If it's just casual conversation, we'd say "on the 4th" or "March 4th". Sort of like saying $4 as four dollars and not needing it written 4$, though that might be said as "two loonies". I've heard Newfoundlanders say "four of March month".
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The Hell hosts might not enjoy this tangent (sorry guys
quote:You just were using the wrong map
Originally posted by orfeo:
I do confess, the couple of times I crossed northwards during my North American trip in 2013, I basically went "Oh yay, normal people!". But then it turned out that folks were pretty sane in New England and Seattle as well, so it's not like it's fair to generalise about the whole country.
quote:Dang, Twilight, you got me.
Originally posted by Twilight:
What about how fat we are? It will ruin my whole stereotype of people who stereotype Americans if he doesn't say anything about how fat we are?
quote:Assuming that Canada is meant to symbolize liberalism on that map, then, at least according to this real-life map, there is at least one state, Michigan, that should be classified as Jesusland.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:You just were using the wrong map
Originally posted by orfeo:
I do confess, the couple of times I crossed northwards during my North American trip in 2013, I basically went "Oh yay, normal people!". But then it turned out that folks were pretty sane in New England and Seattle as well, so it's not like it's fair to generalise about the whole country.
quote:You just don't understand British humour, DAVE.
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:What leads you to the conclusion that it's a spoof of facile anti-Americanism, rather than just an example of facile anti-Americanism?
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Thunderbunk's post is intended as a joke, it's a spoof piece of facile anti Americanism.
quote:Yes, but we British are supposed to be jackbooted imperialist bastards. Unlike you lot*, we didn't mistreat indigenous people while all the time wailing about how fond of liberty we were. Funny, too, how many Indians (as they were then called) and black people crossed the border north in the C19 to get better treatment than was available in the Land of the Free, eh?
Originally posted by Stetson:
...anyone with a cursory knowledge of the history knows that Canadian and British colonial governments have been shitting on aboriginals since time in memorial, with little or no help from the Americans.
quote:I guess I was wrong to say it as though I could be certain, I should have said 'Surely it's meant as a joke'. The reason was just that I think the vast majority of British people know how Americans write the date and I've never heard anyone comment adversely on it. There are quite a few topics on which I've heard British people be bitchy about Americans, but that's not one of them.
posted by Dave W
What leads you to the conclusion that it's a spoof of facile anti-Americanism, rather than just an example of facile anti-Americanism?
quote:moonlitdoor is quite right. The comment was made in a general spirit of sarcasm. But also because we couldn't have total agreement on a Hell thread; the world was in imminent danger of imploding.
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
quote:I guess I was wrong to say it as though I could be certain, I should have said 'Surely it's meant as a joke'. The reason was just that I think the vast majority of British people know how Americans write the date and I've never heard anyone comment adversely on it. There are quite a few topics on which I've heard British people be bitchy about Americans, but that's not one of them.
posted by Dave W
What leads you to the conclusion that it's a spoof of facile anti-Americanism, rather than just an example of facile anti-Americanism?
quote:I wasn't actually aware that anyone used the ISO8601 international standard for representation of dates and times.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is incorrect in Canada to use MMDD. Officially it's YYYY-MM-DD,
quote:Idiot. The court cases were all based on the same Federal Law, they just didn't reach the Supreme Court before Parliament made the issue moot. Read your own f***ing constitution.
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:Assuming that Canada is meant to symbolize liberalism on that map, then, at least according to this real-life map, there is at least one state, Michigan, that should be classified as Jesusland.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:You just were using the wrong map
Originally posted by orfeo:
I do confess, the couple of times I crossed northwards during my North American trip in 2013, I basically went "Oh yay, normal people!". But then it turned out that folks were pretty sane in New England and Seattle as well, so it's not like it's fair to generalise about the whole country.
Also, one American state, Massachusetts, beat sevan provinces, two territories, and the Canadian federal government in recognizing same-sex marriage.
quote:[raises hand]
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:I wasn't actually aware that anyone used the ISO8601 international standard for representation of dates and times.
quote:I use this as a prefix to computer files that are time-sensitive, or of which I make multiple successive copies. Although I usually leave out the second comma, I include it in photographs.
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:[raises hand]
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:I wasn't actually aware that anyone used the ISO8601 international standard for representation of dates and times.
Actually, I even force the Ship to cough out YYYY-MM-DD.
quote:My lot was talking about liberty and declaring UDI? I'm Canadian.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:Yes, but we British are supposed to be jackbooted imperialist bastards. Unlike you lot*, we didn't mistreat indigenous people while all the time wailing about how fond of liberty we were. Funny, too, how many Indians (as they were then called) and black people crossed the border north in the C19 to get better treatment than was available in the Land of the Free, eh?
Originally posted by Stetson:
...anyone with a cursory knowledge of the history knows that Canadian and British colonial governments have been shitting on aboriginals since time in memorial, with little or no help from the Americans.
*Who IIRC declared UDI specifically, in part, so that you could be free from pesky interference with your God-given right to duff up the people who were in the way of your expansion (cough) Proclamation Line (cough).
quote:Wasn't it in Liverpool a few years back where some do-gooders decided to re-name all the streets that had been originally named after slave-traders, and they ended up having to re-name most of the streets in town?
Funny, too, how many Indians (as they were then called) and black people crossed the border north in the C19 to get better treatment than was available in the Land of the Free, eh?
quote:I do, almost everywhere. And have been imposing^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hencouraging its use across client sites, with some success.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:I wasn't actually aware that anyone used the ISO8601 international standard for representation of dates and times.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is incorrect in Canada to use MMDD. Officially it's YYYY-MM-DD,
quote:Most Brits don't really view Liverpool as part of the UK. It's more an enclave of whining front bottoms with acute victimhood syndrome, deeply entrenched inverted snobbery, a perverse sense of entitlement, and an over-inflated understanding of just how funny they are(n't).
Originally posted by Stetson:
Albertus wrote:
quote:Wasn't it in Liverpool a few years back where some do-gooders decided to re-name all the streets that had been originally named after slave-traders, and they ended up having to re-name most of the streets in town?
Funny, too, how many Indians (as they were then called) and black people crossed the border north in the C19 to get better treatment than was available in the Land of the Free, eh?
quote:As I recall, the noble campaign to rechristen all the streets in Liverpool met its match when someone pointed out that Captain Penny was a slave trader. So after a lot of anguished soul-searching they made an exception. 'Cuz like, tourism and all.
Originally posted by orfeo:
And the Beatles. Don't forget the Beatles.
quote:Funny how desite all these great court rulings in the 1770s, that slavery in the British Empire wasn't actually abolished until 1833, with exceptions lasting until the 1840s.
(though we abolished it, or rather ruled that it could not exist, in England in the 1770s)
quote:As I recall, one city councillor thought it would be a good idea, until the rest of the world pointed out why it wouldn't, for the reason you state. No streets were actually renamed.
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:As I recall, the noble campaign to rechristen all the streets in Liverpool met its match when someone pointed out that Captain Penny was a slave trader. So after a lot of anguished soul-searching they made an exception. 'Cuz like, tourism and all.
Originally posted by orfeo:
And the Beatles. Don't forget the Beatles.
quote:I would respond to this, but the poster identifies as coming from London.
Originally posted by Snags:
Most Brits don't really view Liverpool as part of the UK. It's more an enclave of whining front bottoms with acute victimhood syndrome, deeply entrenched inverted snobbery, a perverse sense of entitlement, and an over-inflated understanding of just how funny they are(n't).
quote:Still got a better record than the US, whichever way you cut it.
Originally posted by Stetson:
Albertus wrote:
quote:Funny how desite all these great court rulings in the 1770s, that slavery in the British Empire wasn't actually abolished until 1833, with exceptions lasting until the 1840s.
(though we abolished it, or rather ruled that it could not exist, in England in the 1770s)
And, the heroics of the Royal Navy aside, the British certainly had no trouble buying slave-picked southern US cotton, right up to the Civil War.
quote:There's a high bar, and eternal bragging rights to boot. We may have been evil, but those people were worse. Yeah, that'll pass in the judgment.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Still got a better record [regarding slavery] than the US, whichever way you cut it.
quote:I'd like to, but the pages are always kinda sticky after you've been using it for one of your charter-fetish posts.
Read your own f***ing constitution.
quote:We do. All of us in the rich North.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
TBH, the lousy prices we pay to garment workers and farmers in developing countries isn't to our credit either. Slavery may be outlawed in our countries but we still exploit people on what can only be described as a racial basis.
quote:AIUI this thread is basically about the US v Canada (and by extension Britain, what with the Commonwealth and all). The argument only has to stand up for that purpose.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:There's a high bar, and eternal bragging rights to boot. We may have been evil, but those people were worse. Yeah, that'll pass in the judgment.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Still got a better record [regarding slavery] than the US, whichever way you cut it.
quote:Yeah, but you're the one who started the slavery debate by saying that blacks used to flee to British North America from the USA. That in reply to one of my post's that wasn't even defedning the US record on slavery, just saying that Canada and Britian bear the blame for their treatment of First Nations.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:AIUI this thread is basically about the US v Canada (and by extension Britain, what with the Commonwealth and all). The argument only has to stand up for that purpose.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:There's a high bar, and eternal bragging rights to boot. We may have been evil, but those people were worse. Yeah, that'll pass in the judgment.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Still got a better record [regarding slavery] than the US, whichever way you cut it.
quote:Who are you calling thin-skinned? Again, YOU are the one who started talking about how much kinder the Brits were to blacks, when I wasn't even talking about that issue in the first place, mush less defending the American position.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Not about some US shipmates' thin-skinned defensiveness, then?
quote:Yeah, and if someone on the thread had actually been doing that, you might have a relevant point. But alas...
Oh, I do so agree. Same goes for unprompted bragging about how attached you are to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'.
quote:Fucking A.
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Oh good, somebody called that self-absorbed windbag to Hell.
quote:Sorry, I forgot to include illiterate. The poster identifies as coming from north of London, i.e. not London, but somewhere else.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:I would respond to this, but the poster identifies as coming from London.
Originally posted by Snags:
Most Brits don't really view Liverpool as part of the UK. It's more an enclave of whining front bottoms with acute victimhood syndrome, deeply entrenched inverted snobbery, a perverse sense of entitlement, and an over-inflated understanding of just how funny they are(n't).
quote:I was trying to convey that I thought your post was beneath contempt, and this extends to the 'from' field. There did not seem to be much point observing what an arsehole you were being when you were doing a pretty good job of demonstrating it with no help from me.
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:Sorry, I forgot to include illiterate. The poster identifies as coming from north of London, i.e. not London, but somewhere else.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:I would respond to this, but the poster identifies as coming from London.
Originally posted by Snags:
Most Brits don't really view Liverpool as part of the UK. It's more an enclave of whining front bottoms with acute victimhood syndrome, deeply entrenched inverted snobbery, a perverse sense of entitlement, and an over-inflated understanding of just how funny they are(n't).
quote:Bigotry is sometimes tolerated. It just depends on whether the class of persons it is about is present or not, and whether some can convince that they mean something different by it or mean something different. Thus shipboard, I believe "priestess" has been ruled troublesome, but "fucktard" continues on occasion to emerge by the unthinking, and I think "nigger" would offend the most niggardly. As for body types of Americans, as far as online porn informs, they come in all shapes and sizes just like all the wankers worldwide, though I have this only second hand (so to speak), never having viewed the stuff.
Originally posted by Porridge:
Do we tolerate bigotry on Ship or don’t we? Is it more wrong against the weak but OK against the strong? Do we deplore it in others but keep a small stock on hand for our own amusement, since it’s only against "one of our own" and does nobody (important) any real harm?
quote:HorseAss Bree, however, was the original focus of this thread (despite several attempts to change the subject), and is Canadian, not American. Nor, insofar as I can discern, is he making "little jokes" about the Americans he targets / carpet bombs. How and why does his bigotry get a free pass? How soon would I find myself called here if I quoted HB, but inserted "Australian" or "Canadian" where he's used "American," all else being the same?
Originally posted by orfeo:
Going to America made me realise that a big part of why Americans are relatively culturally isolated is that they have so much diversity within one country.
Americans don't particularly need to go outside their own borders to find people to make little jokes about. They can make jokes about Californians or Minnesotans or Texans or flyover country or wherever else is the right sort of distance away for a bit of knowledge and a bit of mockery.
quote:Yes. Can you understand how I might have been replying directly to something that was recently said in the thread, and how once a thread is started it might not stay exactly on the course you plotted out for it in your head?
Originally posted by Porridge:
Can you understand how these actions and this post might come across to an American as you discuss "little jokes," "a bit of knowledge," and "mockery?"
quote:Just to dissociate most Brits from this, can we take it that the Great Lakes form the Pond on this thread?
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh...I've pointed out Horseman Bree's bigotry numerous times. More often than not I just ignore him. As to pond wars, every post Horseman Bree makes seem designed to start a pond war.
quote:I agree that Eutychus is minding Bree's P&Qs in an appropriate way. I could wish that Bree's antics were named for what they really are. I think calling it a pond war alters the character of what Bree does, but I don't think that originated with Eutychus, and I don't know where / how it did originate.
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Porridge, you can beat him up in Hell, which was your first choice.
OR
You could beat up the Purg Hosts in the Styx for not doing our job in policing anti-US bigotry. Except that Eutychus has actually been doing that, hasn't he?
Just saying ...
quote:I think there's a general issue in society where some comments can be seen as "friendly jibes among mates" yet some very similar comments in a slightly different context are seen as signs of bigotry. There may be scope for a general discussion of these wider social issues in Purgatory.
Originally posted by Porridge:
I don't particularly want to call the Ship to Hell; for one thing, I couldn't cope. Nor do I want to call the Hosts to Styx; I'm not so much angry as bewildered at our apparent collective acceptance of behavior which we'd be up in arms about if it were being doled out to someone else.
quote:In which posts or bits of posts, specifically? I'm genuinely interested.
Originally posted by Porridge:
I begin to wonder at orfeo's motives in his posts
quote:Which makes sense because many of them went to New York precisely because they loved something about New York.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The New York world view is that anyone sensible would want to be in New York.
quote:I'll 'fess up to tardiness. I've had this same thread incubating in my own mind. I even had a thread title half-formed ("And the Horse You Rode In On") because anti-American bigotry sucks and should be called out. Ideally it should have been a fellow Canadian, not an American, who called Horseman Bree on it. So I apologize for my sloth and for the lameness of this "Teacher, teacher, I knew the answer too!" post.
Originally posted by Porridge:
In short, I'm really complaining that, as a community, we seem to have let HB get away with so much for so long, by treating his bigotry as a joke, by ignoring it, by trivializing it, by calling it other than what it is.
quote:So bigotry aimed at whole groups of people is allowed while identifying the bigotry one person is spewing is not. Which is bullshit. If someone posted racist drivel on the regular basis Horseman Bree posts anti-American bigotry, they'd be planked. But HB posts crap like this and calling him on it results in a Hostly caution against personal attack.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A more specific question of the response of the community here when the same occurs in our midst might be better suited to the Styx, especially if anyone considers that the hosts and admins should be taking a stronger role.
Clearly, in both cases, the discussion would need to be framed in a manner that doesn't result in accusations of bigotry directed at identifiable Shipmates.
quote:If Purg. hosts had always done what Eutychus just now started doing, Horseman Bree would have planked himself years ago because posting ignorant diatribes about Americans is his soul reason for being on the Ship.
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:So bigotry aimed at whole groups of people is allowed while identifying the bigotry one person is spewing is not. Which is bullshit. If someone posted racist drivel on the regular basis Horseman Bree posts anti-American bigotry, they'd be planked. But HB posts crap like this and calling him on it results in a Hostly caution against personal attack.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A more specific question of the response of the community here when the same occurs in our midst might be better suited to the Styx, especially if anyone considers that the hosts and admins should be taking a stronger role.
Clearly, in both cases, the discussion would need to be framed in a manner that doesn't result in accusations of bigotry directed at identifiable Shipmates.
It's not personal attack. It's a fact. HB posts anti-American bigotry regularly and frequently.
quote:My point was simply that Hell is not a particularly good place to discuss the way the Ship works. And, that such discussions are not as productive as they could be if they include direct accusations of bigotry against individuals (which would, of course, be a personal attack). That, of course, includes discussion of specific hostly interventions.
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:So bigotry aimed at whole groups of people is allowed while identifying the bigotry one person is spewing is not. Which is bullshit. If someone posted racist drivel on the regular basis Horseman Bree posts anti-American bigotry, they'd be planked. But HB posts crap like this and calling him on it results in a Hostly caution against personal attack.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A more specific question of the response of the community here when the same occurs in our midst might be better suited to the Styx, especially if anyone considers that the hosts and admins should be taking a stronger role.
Clearly, in both cases, the discussion would need to be framed in a manner that doesn't result in accusations of bigotry directed at identifiable Shipmates.
It's not personal attack. It's a fact. HB posts anti-American bigotry regularly and frequently.
quote:Jesus no you wicked euphemism. Get out a hockey pucken map! The Great Lakes are an Ontario-Quebec eastern carp slinging thing. Nothing whatsoever to do with more than half of Canada, which has it's east-west middle in Manitoba west of Winnipeg, the hardest fuckingest rocking town in Canada. The gitch-wearing Friendly Manitobians form a barrier to keep the eastern scrags out. And now for your edmufuckation, American Woman, by Winnipeg's The Guess Who. (There's a stoner live 14 minute version too (recommended) which I heard first in Winnpeg in 1975.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:Just to dissociate most Brits from this, can we take it that the Great Lakes form the Pond on this thread?
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh...I've pointed out Horseman Bree's bigotry numerous times. More often than not I just ignore him. As to pond wars, every post Horseman Bree makes seem designed to start a pond war.
quote:A distinction without a difference if ever there were one. Yes, this is the hair we split in Purgatory. Yes, you gotta draw the line somewhere. But if someone posts that much bigotry on a regular basis, the only way that person isn't a bigot is if they're a troll.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
"HB posts anti-American bigotry regularly and frequently" isn't, as you noted a personal attack. "HB is an anti-American bigot" would be a personal attack.
quote:Oh thank God. The bigot has bolted. Don't let the door hit you.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh, I do so agree. Same goes for unprompted bragging about how attached you are to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'.
Anyway, better things to do than keep this up, so ta-ta.
quote:Indisputably so.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Americans, as a whole, tend to be more culturally isolated. This isn't a slam, just an acknowledgement of the way things work.
quote:And you both are correct.
Originally posted by orfeo:
My remark about Americans being more culturally insular was not meant as a criticism, but as an observation (and was following on from a similar remark by someone else that was explicitly in the same vein).
quote:Quotes file.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
We all live between our sins and our ideals.
quote:Well, by the same token, I can say with some assurance that Koreans know more about British culture(Shakespeare, Harry Potter, Mr. Bean, Love Actually) than Brits know about Korean culture(maybe something like Oldboy has a following in the UK, but nothing compared to what Harry Potter has in Korea).
IME, the average Brit knows more about American culture than the reverse.
quote:Rather, it is both. America is massive and isolated. The UK is less isolated by necessity. But it does not then follow that it is completely aware of everyone. Korea is not as prominent in the UK, due to location and perceived influence, IMO.
Originally posted by Stetson:
Lil Buddha wrote:
quote:Well, by the same token, I can say with some assurance that Koreans know more about British culture(Shakespeare, Harry Potter, Mr. Bean, Love Actually) than Brits know about Korean culture(maybe something like Oldboy has a following in the UK, but nothing compared to what Harry Potter has in Korea).
IME, the average Brit knows more about American culture than the reverse.
Does this mean Brits are culturally isolated? I don't know. It might not be so much a question of cultural isolation, but rather that the bigger you are, the more people are going to know about you.
quote:Well, you know, Canada is G8, NATO, Commonwealth, Windsor-ruled, English-speaking, the whole nine yards as far as British political and cultural connections go.
The UK is less isolated by necessity. But it does not then follow that it is completely aware of everyone. Korea is not as prominent in the UK, due to location and perceived influence, IMO.
quote:Orfeo,
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you're referring to other remarks I make that convey "Americans are different" then I'm not going to stop making them because that is what I think. There are a lot of ways that American society is noticeably different from Europe/Canada/Australia/New Zealand. If you and all the other Americans are wondering why so many cultural remarks on the Ship are directed at you lot, it's because you stand out. As much as anything, that's an inevitable result of your very different history - a history pretty much built on wanting to strike out on your own path.
quote:First, please note the sentence you quote, orfeo, was snipped. The original said:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:In which posts or bits of posts, specifically? I'm genuinely interested.
Originally posted by Porridge:
I begin to wonder at orfeo's motives in his posts
quote:US Shipmates have been subjected to a persistent stream of bigoted comments over months if not years from a single identifiable poster. Several of our number have been pointing out this bigotry, also over a long period. Recently, that bigotry has come to the notice of H&As to the extent that the bigot has been warned. At roughly the same time, I started this thread.
Originally posted by Porridge:
What a poison bigotry is, when it's become frequent enough, and passively accepted enough, that I begin to wonder at orfeo's motives in his posts . . .
quote:I agree with the bulk of this post. I too think America is large, and diverse, and culturally isolated. What raised red flags for me were the phrases “little jokes’ and “mockery.” Was orfeo comparing this behavior -- which really does go on among Americans –- to what the bigot had been doing in Purg threads? Was orfeo suggesting that our resident trasher-of-Americans was just kidding, and thereby providing “cover” and support for his bigotry? My reaction was probably colored by posts from lilBuddha & noprophet just previous to orfeo’s, which also struck me (fairly or not, rightly or wrongly, given the context), as efforts to “excuse” the bigot.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Going to America made me realise that a big part of why Americans are relatively culturally isolated is that they have so much diversity within one country.
Americans don't particularly need to go outside their own borders to find people to make little jokes about. They can make jokes about Californians or Minnesotans or Texans or flyover country or wherever else is the right sort of distance away for a bit of knowledge and a bit of mockery.
quote:I do understand that this is not “my” thread. Neither, though (as I explained above) do I think it’s helpful to characterize bigotry as a pond war or as “little jokes.”
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Yes. Can you understand how I might have been replying directly to something that was recently said in the thread, and how once a thread is started it might not stay exactly on the course you plotted out for it in your head?
Originally posted by Porridge:
Can you understand how these actions and this post might come across to an American as you discuss "little jokes," "a bit of knowledge," and "mockery?"
Jesus, it's not as if it wasn't predictable that it might expand to the extent of discussing how people talk about people from other countries more generally. For starters, if you want to say that Horseman Bree is behaving in an egregious manner, you have to have the background of what is a normal cross-border behaviour.
It's not as if we all started swapping recipes for lemon meringue pie on "your" thread.
quote:...thing to do.
Originally posted by Leaf:
...
Horseman Bree: taking repeated cheap shots ... is a shitty ...
quote:I sometimes get the impression that Horseman Bree has never been to the United States or known an American and bases his idea of American culture solely on our exported media. I think I'd hate America if that was what I was relying on to tell me about American culture.
Originally posted by Porridge:
US Shipmates have been subjected to a persistent stream of bigoted comments over months if not years from a single identifiable poster. Several of our number have been pointing out this bigotry, also over a long period. Recently, that bigotry has come to the notice of H&As to the extent that the bigot has been warned.
quote:
I hate America. I hate this country. It’s just big ideas, and stories, and people dying, and people like you. The white cracker who wrote the national anthem knew what he was doing. He set the word 'free' to a note so high nobody can reach it. That was deliberate. Nothing on earth sounds less like freedom to me. You come to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean. I live in America, that’s hard enough, I don’t have to love it. You do that. Everybody’s got to love something.
quote:I think a trip to the Ship's Gallery will dispel that notion.
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
[aside]I always thought Horseman Bree was a "she". [\aside]
quote:That's stupid. The person who wrote the national anthem didn't write the music, nor set it to the tune. That came later. And the tune pre-existed the poem, and which note came on which word was purely a matter of happenstance.
Originally posted by saysay:
Hell, even avoiding most media, there are a lot days that I agree with this Angels in America quote:
quote:
I hate America. I hate this country. It’s just big ideas, and stories, and people dying, and people like you. The white cracker who wrote the national anthem knew what he was doing. He set the word 'free' to a note so high nobody can reach it. That was deliberate. Nothing on earth sounds less like freedom to me. You come to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean. I live in America, that’s hard enough, I don’t have to love it. You do that. Everybody’s got to love something.
quote:Tony Kushner. (It's a line said by a character, if that makes any difference - probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google).
Originally posted by mousethief:
What moron wrote this?
quote:My intention is to say that in a lot of areas, they have more in common with each other than any of them do with the US.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:Orfeo,
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you're referring to other remarks I make that convey "Americans are different" then I'm not going to stop making them because that is what I think. There are a lot of ways that American society is noticeably different from Europe/Canada/Australia/New Zealand. If you and all the other Americans are wondering why so many cultural remarks on the Ship are directed at you lot, it's because you stand out. As much as anything, that's an inevitable result of your very different history - a history pretty much built on wanting to strike out on your own path.
You seem to be suggesting that Europe/Canada/Australia/New Zealand have a homogenous society which is clearly distinct from the US. Is that your intention or am I misreading you through a paranoid haze induced by this thread?
quote:The short answer to this was that my post wasn't about Horseman Bree. Neither, in my opinion, were the posts that I was intending to reply to. The fact that this thread started as Hellcall of Horseman Bree - who, as you have noted, has come to the attention of Hosts and Admins for a pattern of jerkish behaviour - does not mean that every post on this thread is written with Horseman Bree particularly in mind.
Originally posted by Porridge:
And now to the post by orfeo which, in light of what had already transpired as filtered, naturally, through my perceptions mistaken or accurate, raised questions for me as to just what has been going on here:
quote:I agree with the bulk of this post. I too think America is large, and diverse, and culturally isolated. What raised red flags for me were the phrases “little jokes’ and “mockery.” Was orfeo comparing this behavior -- which really does go on among Americans –- to what the bigot had been doing in Purg threads? Was orfeo suggesting that our resident trasher-of-Americans was just kidding, and thereby providing “cover” and support for his bigotry? My reaction was probably colored by posts from lilBuddha & noprophet just previous to orfeo’s, which also struck me (fairly or not, rightly or wrongly, given the context), as efforts to “excuse” the bigot.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Going to America made me realise that a big part of why Americans are relatively culturally isolated is that they have so much diversity within one country.
Americans don't particularly need to go outside their own borders to find people to make little jokes about. They can make jokes about Californians or Minnesotans or Texans or flyover country or wherever else is the right sort of distance away for a bit of knowledge and a bit of mockery.
As we all know, the in-group use of the word “nigger” is very different from its use by those not part of that in-group. The use of terms like “Yank” or “honkie” is similar. The bigot is not an American; he doesn’t get the same latitude that another American gets when throwing terms around.
I posted as much to orfeo (though not in those words) and got this response:
quote:I do understand that this is not “my” thread. Neither, though (as I explained above) do I think it’s helpful to characterize bigotry as a pond war or as “little jokes.”
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Yes. Can you understand how I might have been replying directly to something that was recently said in the thread, and how once a thread is started it might not stay exactly on the course you plotted out for it in your head?
Originally posted by Porridge:
Can you understand how these actions and this post might come across to an American as you discuss "little jokes," "a bit of knowledge," and "mockery?"
Jesus, it's not as if it wasn't predictable that it might expand to the extent of discussing how people talk about people from other countries more generally. For starters, if you want to say that Horseman Bree is behaving in an egregious manner, you have to have the background of what is a normal cross-border behaviour.
It's not as if we all started swapping recipes for lemon meringue pie on "your" thread.
Again, what leaped out at me from this post (and I was reading in the context of a dawning and horrifying suspicion that someone I had previously admired and believed to be one of the Ship’s many champions against bigotry, oppression, etc. seemed actually to be suggesting that what I (and others) were experiencing as bigotry was, for orfeo, “normal cross-border behavior” i.e., fine, acceptable, and OK behavior.
Maybe I’m alone in seeing a problem here. (I’m pretty sure I don’t yet understand exactly what the problem is that I think I see, but I’m here hoping for other perspectives in an effort to understand.)
I want very much to be mistaken about these discomfiting perceptions, and hope for reassurance that I am. I am out of time, and will be away for several hours, but hope that the discussion continues.
quote:Why the fuck would I google every stupid thing you post, let alone anyone else on the ship? Fuck yourself.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:Tony Kushner. (It's a line said by a character, if that makes any difference - probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google).
Originally posted by mousethief:
What moron wrote this?
quote:A lot of them are people who were born and raised in New York and just don't imagine life beyond the city as being worthwhile. It may be isolated but it does armor against gibes. They assume the motive for such abuse must be pure envy.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Which makes sense because many of them went to New York precisely because they loved something about New York.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The New York world view is that anyone sensible would want to be in New York.
quote:There's a lot of truth in all of this.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:A lot of them are people who were born and raised in New York and just don't imagine life beyond the city as being worthwhile. It may be isolated but it does armor against gibes. They assume the motive for such abuse must be pure envy.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Which makes sense because many of them went to New York precisely because they loved something about New York.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The New York world view is that anyone sensible would want to be in New York.
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
quote:Tony Kushner also wrote the screenplay to Spielberg's Lincoln, which is about as rah-rah America as you can get while still acknowledging that they had slaves.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:Tony Kushner. (It's a line said by a character, if that makes any difference - probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google).
Originally posted by mousethief:
What moron wrote this?
quote:That's true. Though I am old enough to remember the days(pre-1982) when Canadian right-wingers used to brag about how Canadian cops didn't have to read "criminals" their rights, unlike in "the states", where "the courts control everything".
In terms of broad political spectrum, most of what is labelled "left wing" in America would actually be something like "moderate right wing" in many other countries. Most of what would be labelled "left wing" in those other countries would be bordering on "communist" from an American viewpoint.
This is basically a reflection of the fact that the United States is far more individual-oriented and less society-oriented in its outlook, for better or worse (and there are indeed both pluses and minuses that arise). This is completely understandable given the origins of the United States.
quote:Tony Kushner is an excellent Gay, Jewish playwright. The plays saysay mentioned won the Pulitzer Prize, so she might be forgiven for not giving the name of the author. Besides the fairly spectacular Angels in America (Which just was revived here in Seattle last summer), I'm waiting to catch with his newer play "The Intelligent Homosexual's guide to Capitalism and Socialism with a key to the Scriptures"
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Why the fuck would I google every stupid thing you post, let alone anyone else on the ship? Fuck yourself.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:Tony Kushner. (It's a line said by a character, if that makes any difference - probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google).
Originally posted by mousethief:
What moron wrote this?
quote:That's easily forgiven. The offense is to insinuate that everyone SHOULD know that, or if they don't, they should google a quote posted on the Ship to find out who wrote it, and if they don't they are an idiot. Which is fucked-up talk. Which one expects from say-say, come to think of it.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The plays saysay mentioned won the Pulitzer Prize, so she might be forgiven for not giving the name of the author.
quote:It's not as straightforward as that. The dictionary meaning is 'artificial body of water', but many people would use the word 'pond' in ordinary speech to describe a small body of water without worrying about how it was formed. Also, we have a lot of dialect words for small (natural) lakes; in Cumbria where I come from they'd be called tarns.
He said that the meaning of the word pond is different. In Britain, it means an artificial body of water.
In the United States, ponds are bodies of water, smaller than lakes and larger than puddles. They can be either natural or artificial.
Is the British meaning now that it is always artificial?
quote:Normal cross-border behaviour below (given that it's antipodean behaviour, I've inserted a 'u').
Originally posted by Porridge:
Again, what leaped out at me from this post (and I was reading in the context of a dawning and horrifying suspicion that someone I had previously admired and believed to be one of the Ship’s many champions against bigotry, oppression, etc. seemed actually to be suggesting that what I (and others) were experiencing as bigotry was, for orfeo, “normal cross-border behavior” i.e., fine, acceptable, and OK behavior.
quote:Find me a single fucking dictionary entry that includes phrasing to describe how powerful entities are magically exempt from suffering bigotry.
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Bigotry? Against the most culturally, militarily and (at least arguably) economically powerful nation in the world? The word cannot maintain any meaning if usage in this context is accepted.
quote:And yet, somehow, Stephen "Dubya Wannabe" Harper is Prime Minister.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Canadians do look with rather astonishment at some of then things that go on south of the border.
quote:Ah yes - the "Black people can't be racist" argument.
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Bigotry? Against the most culturally, militarily and (at least arguably) economically powerful nation in the world? The word cannot maintain any meaning if usage in this context is accepted.
quote:Clearly, you are not at all familiar with the sport of Rugby Union. Which is (a) the sport that New Zealand most cares about, and (b) the sport in which they beat not only Australia but virtually anyone else with impressive regularity.
Originally posted by anoesis:
I would be very surprised indeed to discover an Australian who viewed this sort of thing as bigotry, I think it probably hardly registers. Especially the second one. Who gives a shit about schadenfreude when you win all the time anyway?
quote:To some extent, I think the "bigotry" issue is a red herring.
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Bigotry? Against the most culturally, militarily and (at least arguably) economically powerful nation in the world? The word cannot maintain any meaning if usage in this context is accepted.
quote:Yes, a paper mill worker in North Louisiana has so much more power and influence than say David Thomson.
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Bigotry? Against the most culturally, militarily and (at least arguably) economically powerful nation in the world? The word cannot maintain any meaning if usage in this context is accepted.
quote:It's odd the way left-wing Canadian nationalists (not to be confused with left-wing Canadians) will frame a guy like Stephen Harper.
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:And yet, somehow, Stephen "Dubya Wannabe" Harper is Prime Minister.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Canadians do look with rather astonishment at some of then things that go on south of the border.
quote:And recently we've had the spectacle of Harper lobbying Obama to be MORE right-wing(ie. approve Keystone), and Obama resisting. I'm not sure how you would spin that into the narrative about Canada being forced by Americans into adopting right-wing politics.
And yet, somehow, Stephen "Dubya Wannabe" Harper is Prime Minister.
quote:It's pretty plain to me that SaySay was talking to herself when she said, "Probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google)."
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Why the fuck would I google every stupid thing you post, let alone anyone else on the ship? Fuck yourself.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:Tony Kushner. (It's a line said by a character, if that makes any difference - probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google).
Originally posted by mousethief:
What moron wrote this?
quote:And sadly, almost no one else cares about. It's like American attitudes about Canada's dominance in Hockey.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Clearly, you are not at all familiar with the sport of Rugby Union. Which is (a) the sport that New Zealand most cares about, and (b) the sport in which they beat not only Australia but virtually anyone else with impressive regularity.
quote:Harper thrives on getting 37% of the people to agree with him.
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:It's odd the way left-wing Canadian nationalists (not to be confused with left-wing Canadians) will frame a guy like Stephen Harper.
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:And yet, somehow, Stephen "Dubya Wannabe" Harper is Prime Minister.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Canadians do look with rather astonishment at some of then things that go on south of the border.
The typical spin is to say something like "Harper is importing American-style politics into this country", which tellingly ignores the existence of a huge chunk of the Canadian voting public who are apparently quite willing to embrace whatever Harper is "importing".
..
quote:Really? Come to Murrayfield tomorrow and you'll see Caring About. But then almost no one else cares about your national sports of Rounders and Incredibly Boring Human Dodgems.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:And sadly, almost no one else cares about.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Clearly, you are not at all familiar with the sport of Rugby Union. Which is (a) the sport that New Zealand most cares about, and (b) the sport in which they beat not only Australia but virtually anyone else with impressive regularity.
quote:In Canada.
Originally posted by RuthW:
Canada is dominant in hockey?
quote:Well, yeah. I agree with you that Canadians aren't that different from Americans, hence my put-down(meant as agreement with your Wannabe Dubya post) of Canadian nationalists who think that right-wing values are totally alien to Canada. Not sure how that makes me a gibbering idiot.
Originally posted by RooK:
Stetson, you are a gibbering idiot. My point was to mock my fellow Canadian for suggesting that Canadians are all that much different than Americans, generally. There is way more variance in one standard deviation inside either nationality than there is between their averages.
quote:It's called ignorance, in this case "not knowing that the kind of US right-wing extremism we've been suffering was also in other places." I was astonished and horrified at BNP/UKIP too, even though I'd known about Margaret Thatcher. But I'd considered her a sort of anomaly.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Dude, whatever you are smoking, please do not operate a motor vehicle or heavy machinery for several hours. Perhaps days.
quote:Support was at 52% in Janurary of 2014, the most recent poll I could find.
I mean, heck, there's a part of me that's taken aback by the idea that some Canadians are in favor of the Keystone Pipeline.
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Support was at 52% in Janurary of 2014, the most recent poll I could find.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:Ah, so they gave you virtual reality goggles when you got there, did they?
Originally posted by RooK:
I have adjusted it to my liking, yes.
quote:I want everyone to be better tha the US. Not because I have anything against the US, but in the same way that I want everyone to be better than the UK. It gives a great incentive to improve.
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I want Canada to be better than the US.
quote:It pisses off plenty elsewhere. Not because they necessarily admire the USA and her ways, but because Pond wars are evil and destructive. It's flamebaiting.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
To me, he reads as both serious and angry.
I can take some good-natured cross-Pond joshing--and even some not so good-natured. But HB seems intent on taking hard, angry swipes at us/US, whenever he can find a way to do it.
And that is wearying, to many American posters.
quote:At the end of the day, as much as people may like to brag about how their country is more liberal or more progressive that somewhere else, when you tell them that a certain corporate endeavour might put cash in their pocket, they will more than likely find some reason to say that it's a good thing overall.
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Support was at 52% in Janurary of 2014, the most recent poll I could find.
quote:Yes. In the US, you're probably more likely to encounter politicians who wear their anti-evnironmentalism on their sleeve. "We sure as hell don't need these sandal-wearin' commie eco-freaks tellin' us what to do with the trees and rivers GAWD gave to us!"
Arguably (and this applies to Canada, the UK, Europe, etc.) some of this is probably partly because our own nasty right-wing crowd has been talking about other countries' "socialism" and environmentalism and acceptance of things like gay marriage and so on, so it makes a lot of other places sound vastly more advanced.
quote:FWIW: over the years, many American shipmates have gone on record as not "necessarily admiring the USA and her ways", either.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:It pisses off plenty elsewhere. Not because they necessarily admire the USA and her ways, but because Pond wars are evil and destructive. It's flamebaiting.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
To me, he reads as both serious and angry.
I can take some good-natured cross-Pond joshing--and even some not so good-natured. But HB seems intent on taking hard, angry swipes at us/US, whenever he can find a way to do it.
And that is wearying, to many American posters.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
quote:He's adding some Quebecois bigot of late.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
RooK is correct on this. Stephen Harper is a hybrid of Alberta cowboy mating with Toronto banker. Not sure who gets to be on top.
quote:Surely it's the US refinaries that get all the jobs and money. Canada just gets the end of a pipeline down which they can shovel their national assets.
Originally posted by Stetson:
"Well, I'm all for the environment and everything, but this pipeline isn't THAT bad, and come on, we need jobs and money pumped into the economy."
quote:I tell you what's destructive of the English language: calling something a Pond war when the opponents are both on the same side of the Atlantic. Why is the Ship being afflicted by a complete geography failure at the moment?
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Pond wars are evil and destructive.
quote:It has apparently done so on this very thread. I rather liked the idea of closing the gate before the horse has actually bolted.
Originally posted by mousethief:
It has apparently broadened out (or is in the process of doing so) into a term meaning such behavior between people of any two nations.
quote:Which century's usage of English, in your opinion, should we go back to?
Originally posted by orfeo:
I make no apology for liking a bit of precision in language.
quote:Whichever one was before the moment that North America decided the middle course of a 3-course meal should be named after the French word for "entrance". I'll give you plenty of other local variations of the language, but that one is just stupid.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Which century's usage of English, in your opinion, should we go back to?
Originally posted by orfeo:
I make no apology for liking a bit of precision in language.
quote:Obama told us Canada would get all the jobs.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Surely it's the US refinaries that get all the jobs and money. Canada just gets the end of a pipeline down which they can shovel their national assets.
Originally posted by Stetson:
"Well, I'm all for the environment and everything, but this pipeline isn't THAT bad, and come on, we need jobs and money pumped into the economy."
quote:Well, yeah, but Keystone would give us a route through which to ship our oil to world markets. I'm not sure how many jobs that creates(probably depends on how much work needs to be done on the Canadian end), but it defintely brings money into the economy.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Surely it's the US refinaries that get all the jobs and money. Canada just gets the end of a pipeline down which they can shovel their national assets.
Originally posted by Stetson:
"Well, I'm all for the environment and everything, but this pipeline isn't THAT bad, and come on, we need jobs and money pumped into the economy."
quote:I'm not an expert on these things, but my guess would be that the bulk of the benefit is to Canada. After all, it would be Canadian oil being shipped to market.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:Obama told us Canada would get all the jobs.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Surely it's the US refinaries that get all the jobs and money. Canada just gets the end of a pipeline down which they can shovel their national assets.
Originally posted by Stetson:
"Well, I'm all for the environment and everything, but this pipeline isn't THAT bad, and come on, we need jobs and money pumped into the economy."
quote:Crude oil is a raw material, and like all raw materials, the value is added after someone makes something useful from it.
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'm not an expert on these things, but my guess would be that the bulk of the benefit is to Canada. After all, it would be Canadian oil being shipped to market.
quote:Since when was language a repository for the fucked-up thinking of the feeble-minded? Mistakes come and go when they get called out. Occasionally they stick. At that stage you might have a point.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Nearly as destructive of the English language is the inane and uneducated practice of confusing etymology with meaning. Yes, clearly "pond war" was coined to describe North Americans and Brits lobbing invective at one another across the Atlantic (metaphorically speaking). It has apparently broadened out (or is in the process of doing so) into a term meaning such behavior between people of any two nations. Words and terms do that. It is a symptom of ignorance of how language works to insist that "pond war" not be used for conflict between people from two nations that are not separated by the North Atlantic. In short, you are confusing etymology with meaning. Don't feel bad; some of the best people do it all the time. But it is stupid.
quote:None. We should look forward to a time when people mean what they say. Hopefully by thinking first, rather than dropping their pearls of wisdom in the way the neighbour's cat craps on my lawn.
Which century's usage of English, in your opinion, should we go back to?
quote:Get. A. Room.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:It has apparently done so on this very thread. I rather liked the idea of closing the gate before the horse has actually bolted.
Originally posted by mousethief:
It has apparently broadened out (or is in the process of doing so) into a term meaning such behavior between people of any two nations.
I make no apology for liking a bit of precision in language. In fact, this dovetails beautifully with a discussion in the other fight you're having with me right now.
quote:Yeal, you could be right. Like I say, I'm not an expert.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Crude oil is a raw material, and like all raw materials, the value is added after someone makes something useful from it.
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'm not an expert on these things, but my guess would be that the bulk of the benefit is to Canada. After all, it would be Canadian oil being shipped to market.
If Canada wanted to maximise the wealth and jobs it gets from having a metric fucktonne of tar sands, it'd invest in the refineries, factories and exporting infrastructure. If it wants to sell its raw materials and let another country take all that profit and benefits, then it can vote for Keystone.
quote:Yeah, but that may be starting to change with the drop in oil prices.
I am under the impression that the Canadian tar sand extraction has created a boom economy for those doing it. It's less happy for the poor people who used to live there. I would think that this staffing would continue as long as there are more oil sands to extract.
quote:Depends where they hold the Winter Olympics doesn't it?
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:In Canada.
Originally posted by RuthW:
Canada is dominant in hockey?
quote:Here's something else to to throw cold water on your canuckophile reverires, Chast...
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I mean, heck, there's a part of me that's taken aback by the idea that some Canadians are in favor of the Keystone Pipeline. Not that I quite think that Canada is some sort of liberal paradise, but... well, I suppose I kind of did, yeah, only with more "ehs." I suppose I don't anymore, and that makes me sad.
quote:American Football(with Canadian variations) in the Number 2 sport in Canada, and baseball is widely followed in the Republic Of Korea. In both countries, it tends to be domestic teams who get the most attention, but there are also many people who follow American games as well.
As for no-one caring about American Football and Baseball outside the U.S., I don't care either.
quote:I has a sad.
Originally posted by Stetson:
In my experience, anti-immigration sentiment has ALWAYS been a pretty big part of the Canadian social psyche, and 41% of Canadians being freaked out by the number of "visible minorities" strikes me as pretty believable, now and in the past.
quote:Well, yes and no. Most of their "journalists" had fairly bankable careers before the network started up, and I'd predict that they'll find equally bankable gigs now, albeit not all concentrated in one particular venue.
Well, at least Fox News Canada went away due to lack of interest. That's got to be worth something, right?
quote:Yeah, it's an interesting shift in opinion. Back when I was a kid, we just hated people because they had different skin colours and dressed funny.
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Anti-immigration factions in recent years have added a new faction; people who are nervous not about poor huddled masses yearning to breathe but billionaires buying up all the property in the most desired global cities. I've seen comments about Russians in Manhattan and Chinese in Vancouver buying so much property that other people can't afford to live in the city anymore.
quote:My bank's cheques do just that-- apparenntly it's part of the Canadian Payment Clearance standards.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:I wasn't actually aware that anyone used the ISO8601 international standard for representation of dates and times.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is incorrect in Canada to use MMDD. Officially it's YYYY-MM-DD,
quote:It is the most rational date format for long term storage and reference.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:My bank's cheques do just that-- apparenntly it's part of the Canadian Payment Clearance standards.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:I wasn't actually aware that anyone used the ISO8601 international standard for representation of dates and times.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is incorrect in Canada to use MMDD. Officially it's YYYY-MM-DD,
quote:I think you need to change your reading material.
Originally posted by Snags:
Ricardus et al re. Scouse digression.
Misjudging of tone on both sides, I fear. The original was intended to be largely in keeping with the OTT broad-brush stereotypical slurs that formed the root of Porridge's call on Horseman Bree. Probably given a little bit too much edge due to personal history and the lack of context, mind.
I wrongly (?) assumed that Ricardus' dismissive riposte was carrying on in the same vein, and therefore ran with it.
So, basically the kind of provocatively offensive exchange that in Real Life(tm) with all the other non-verbal cues and the benefit of being between people who know each other and have some shared history is just gratuitously offensive humour underpinned by understanding, and on a forum amongst people who you don't actually know one another can go either way.
Doubtless compounded by reading far too much Old Holborn on Twitter.
quote:This tangent was not explored in depth enough (IMHO) to explain why it be a sensitive issue for some Canadians (most have no idea about it). It's useful to recall that before 1766/1783 there were 15-17 colonies (depending how and if you count Florida) called America. Thirteen of them took off and formed the USA, leaving Canada and Nova Scotia. Then about 80,000 Loyalists headed north, still thinking themselves to be Americans. The term Canadian only applied to francophone Québécois for another half-century.
There was another time (in Hell, IIRC, but the thread doesn't seem to have been archived), non-US folks got very upset about calling ourselves "Americans". Basically, it was self-important, etc. Several of us, including a certain Floridian, pointed out that the US is fully named the "United States of America". No other country of the Americas has that in their official name. We also said that we were quite aware of our country's failings; and if someone wanted to dig into them, we'd help. But at least criticize us for something that the gov't actually *did*.
quote:She posted it in a public forum. She was most emphatically and quite obviously NOT talking to herself.
Originally posted by Twilight:
It's pretty plain to me that SaySay was talking to herself when she said, "Probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google)."
quote:Actually for storage the hyphens are irrational; two meaningless bytes that are unnecessary and wasteful.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is the most rational date format for long term storage and reference.
quote:Note to self: don't publicly type notes to yourself as a device to communicate your thought processes to readers while conveying that you are letting them in on your thought processes. It apparently won't go down well with some Shipmates.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:She posted it in a public forum. She was most emphatically and quite obviously NOT talking to herself.
Originally posted by Twilight:
It's pretty plain to me that SaySay was talking to herself when she said, "Probably shouldn't have made the assumption that everyone either had heard of the play or could use google)."
quote:Miss the point much? If you're communicating your thought processes to readers, you're not talking to yourself. You're communicating (I'm ashamed for you that I even have to say this) to the readers.
Originally posted by orfeo:
as a device to communicate your thought processes to readers
quote:I would argue the hyphens are rational.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Actually for storage the hyphens are irrational; two meaningless bytes that are unnecessary and wasteful.
quote:I can see you enjoy asking me this.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Miss the point much?
Originally posted by orfeo:
as a device to communicate your thought processes to readers
quote:Actually, you can be doing both. That was my point (you're not the only who gets to have points). So don't set it up as an either/or (and in fact a later bit of your post seems to acknowledge it isn't an either/or)
If you're communicating your thought processes to readers, you're not talking to yourself. You're communicating (I'm ashamed for you that I even have to say this) to the readers.
quote:Quite possibly.
The bit that Twilight is defending was saysay ostensibly "talking to herself" but actually taking a swipe at me.
quote:See, now you are saying that they're not mutually exclusive. Good, you understand how it works then.
Twilight fondly thinks that the fact she was "talking to herself" means she couldn't possibly be taking a swipe at me.
quote:Oh my aching sides. How nice of you to provide a continuity references after several days of peace and quiet.
And here you are defending her. Which I find weird; she didn't actually say anything racist.
quote:But there's no need to store the hyphens, you just put them back in when you display the date.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:I would argue the hyphens are rational.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Actually for storage the hyphens are irrational; two meaningless bytes that are unnecessary and wasteful.
The braking down of numbers into smaller units help most people process long numbers.
2015-03-18 is easier to read, process and remember than 20150318.
quote:If citizens of South Africa called themselves "Africans", would Africans from other countries on the continent be offended?
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...
There was another time (in Hell, IIRC, but the thread doesn't seem to have been archived), non-US folks got very upset about calling ourselves "Americans". ...
quote:All the South Africans I know (quite a range of friends and colleagues) describe themselves as South Africans, and wouldn't think of doing otherwise.
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:If citizens of South Africa called themselves "Africans", would Africans from other countries on the continent be offended?
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...
There was another time (in Hell, IIRC, but the thread doesn't seem to have been archived), non-US folks got very upset about calling ourselves "Americans". ...
Who cares? I think a lot of people are too sensitive these days and spend too much time finding things to be upset about.
quote:How nice of you to take a swipe at me after several days of peace and quiet, hypocrite.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh my aching sides. How nice of you to provide a continuity references after several days of peace and quiet.
quote:A quick telephone poll (1 each of Sierra Leonean, Burundian, and a Cotivorian) got the following consensus: If the South African in question intended to suggest that nobody else was African, they need not expect to be given a drink or invited to the table. The proposition got one furrowed brow (as far as one can distinguish gestures over the telephone), a derisive snort, and a burst of laughter. They were united only in complaints about the weather. I joined them in that.
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:If citizens of South Africa called themselves "Africans", would Africans from other countries on the continent be offended?
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...
There was another time (in Hell, IIRC, but the thread doesn't seem to have been archived), non-US folks got very upset about calling ourselves "Americans". ...
Who cares? I think a lot of people are too sensitive these days and spend too much time finding things to be upset about.
quote:Yes, but connected possibly?
Originally posted by Porridge:
Regardless, all a long way from Canada.
quote:Really? You think I was taking a swipe at you? I was trying to admit that I sometimes make erroneous assumptions about what references Shipmates will pick up on. But if you want to read it as a swipe, go right ahead.
Originally posted by mousethief:
The bit that Twilight is defending was saysay ostensibly "talking to herself" but actually taking a swipe at me.
quote:Native American.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
America, as a continental designation/grouping of people, is not used in the manner that European, African or Asian is. Not casually and not culturally.
quote:You nailed it. However did our politeness mask slip?
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
When I first visited Canada I was curious how Canadians referred to people from the United States. Perhaps they were just being polite but I've never heard any usage but "Americans". Perhaps the "Damn" is silent as in Yankee.
quote:Native American.[/QUOTE]
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as not Canadian.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as American. As does the term 'reservation'.
quote:Whereas I am used to reserves being for animals, like a wildlife reserve. So saying that a reserve is for indigenous people conjures up nasty images. OTOH, I think that was really the point of putting Native Americans on reservations.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is not generally in use in Canada. This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as American. As does the term 'reservation'. They are 'reserves' in Canada.
quote:Except in Canada, they weren't Native Americans. See above entries.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:Whereas I am used to reserves being for animals, like a wildlife reserve. So saying that a reserve is for indigenous people conjures up nasty images. OTOH, I think that was really the point of putting Native Americans on reservations.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is not generally in use in Canada. This usage usually identifies the speaker or writer as American. As does the term 'reservation'. They are 'reserves' in Canada.
quote:And yet, in England in 2008, the only time I have ever been there, both Eskimo and Red Indian were used several times in conversations I was a part of. I was quite taken aback and, later on, when I mentioned my discomfort, was reassured that both were very common terms and not to be offended.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I support Augustine. Culturally speaking, in Canada, the use of the term Eskimo (Esquimaux) is considered extremely offensive, and this is not just in academic circles, but common parlance. We use the name by which Northern Aboriginals call themselves. It is common courtesy.
As for the term Indian and Red Indian to describe other First Nations, the last time I used those terms was nearly 50 years ago. I only hear it as a pejorative (preceded by adjectives such as dirty and drunken) by ignorant people who are themselves neither especially clean nor sober.
Augustine has clearly explained the current usuages, both legally and culturally. Once again, it is common courtesy.
quote:As were the American Reservations. The paths in Canada and the US were similar. Cooperation, competition, dispossession, assimilation and disaffection.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The reserves were a combination of putting them out of the way (usually on not very choice land-- not laudable) and protecting them from having some of their land defrauded by speculators (more laudable).
quote:Perhaps not, in the circles you move in. In Canada, children are now, and have been since the sixties, taught to use proper terminology. So, whole generations of adults have emerged using the terms. The only people who use those pejorative terms (with no malice intended) are people of my parents' generation.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Courtesy, yes. Common? Not so much.
quote:Did these people in England ever use those terms in the presence of people they refer to, the so-called "Eskimos" or "Red Indians"? They might have learned a different mode of courtesy if they had.
Originally posted by lily pad:
quote:And yet, in England in 2008, the only time I have ever been there, both Eskimo and Red Indian were used several times in conversations I was a part of. I was quite taken aback and, later on, when I mentioned my discomfort, was reassured that both were very common terms and not to be offended.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I support Augustine. Culturally speaking, in Canada, the use of the term Eskimo (Esquimaux) is considered extremely offensive, and this is not just in academic circles, but common parlance. We use the name by which Northern Aboriginals call themselves. It is common courtesy.
As for the term Indian and Red Indian to describe other First Nations, the last time I used those terms was nearly 50 years ago. I only hear it as a pejorative (preceded by adjectives such as dirty and drunken) by ignorant people who are themselves neither especially clean nor sober.
Augustine has clearly explained the current usuages, both legally and culturally. Once again, it is common courtesy.
quote:Yeah, I was kinda taking about here. SOF. More than once we've had people defending nigger as "Oops. We did not know it was really offencive anywhere other than the US. Are you sure it is really offencive? Gran says it often, surely that is OK"?
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
quote:Perhaps not, in the circles you move in.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Courtesy, yes. Common? Not so much.
quote:Probably not. Despite the shrieks from the BNP and UKIP, the UK is exceedingly pale. And British.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Did these people in England ever use those terms in the presence of people they refer to, the so-called "Eskimos" or "Red Indians"? They might have learned a different mode of courtesy if they had.
quote:It goes on to talk about a shift in linguists' view of the etymology.
Although the name "Eskimo" is commonly used in Alaska to refer to all Inuit and Yupik people of the world, this name is considered derogatory in many other places because it was given by non-Inuit people and was said to mean "eater of raw meat."
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
People have been trying to come up with more terms. I can't keep up with them, and IMHO I don't really need to. I use CFIDS, because that best describes my experience of the damn disease. I'd rather that they spend more time and money on prevention, treatment, and cure, than messing around with labels.
quote:Add addressing inequities to that.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'd rather that they spend more time and money on prevention, treatment, and cure, than messing around with labels.
quote:And confusing at times. But respect is a worthy goal. And disrespect too valuable. I try not to waste it on general catagories, but save it for those who've earned it.
Anyway, names and respect are *important*. Dealing with many name changes can be wearying.
quote:Well, I was speaking specifically of CFIDS there, not any other group with name changes. Though there've been lots of inequities in the way CFIDS has been handled. Even to the point where the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) redirected our research money--and Congress called them on the carpet for that.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Add addressing inequities to that.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'd rather that they spend more time and money on prevention, treatment, and cure, than messing around with labels.
The CDC had to start taking us seriously. Sometimes, Congress gets it right.
quote:It is confusing. My Aunt is Sioux, and all my cousins refer to themselves as "Indian" and have always preferred that I use that term rather than "Native American."
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Eskimo:
Some years back, in various media, I picked up that "Eskimo" was an insult (something about the nose, I think--or am I getting that mixed up with Lapp?). "Aleut" was the preferred term. So I switched.
Within the last several years, I heard that Eskimo actually was a proper term, so I was confused. I just now searched on "Eskimo Aleut", and found a bunch of hits using both as official terms for languages, and saying they're two branches of the same language.
I don't want to offend anybody. So I could use some help, please. Are linguists slow on the uptake? Are the web page writers?
Thanks in advance.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
quote:This.
Originally posted by RuthW:
Yes, the polite thing to do is to call people what they wish to be called. Citizens of the USA are thus referred to as Americans. No one pitches a fit about indigenous peoples in Alaska appropriating the term "Indian" from the people of India, so you can all just suck it up and call Us citizens Americans.
quote:"Mighty overlord with supreme intelligence with an incredibly hot body" will do just fine.
RuthW: Yes, the polite thing to do is to call people what they wish to be called.
quote:Do you mind if we shorten that to MOWSIWAIHB -- Or mousy wabe?
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:"Mighty overlord with supreme intelligence with an incredibly hot body" will do just fine.
RuthW: Yes, the polite thing to do is to call people what they wish to be called.
(I call people from the US 'people from the US' too.)
quote:I find it very hard to believe that you say "pessoas dos Estados Unidos" instead of "americanos."
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(I call people from the US 'people from the US' too.)
quote:No, mousy is your nickname. I wouldn't dare to take that away from you.
mousethief: Do you mind if we shorten that to MOWSIWAIHB -- Or mousy wabe?
quote:Yet I do. I met a tourist from the US here in Brazil last week. I refer to him as 'a tourist from the US' (um turista dos Estados Unidos).
RuthW: I find it very hard to believe that you say "pessoas dos Estados Unidos" instead of "americanos."
quote:And this is what I do in Dutch. I usually shorten it to mensen uit de VS.
RuthW: Or "mensen uit de Verenigde Staten" instead of "Amerikanen."
") Or when people are told that the evolution of language in migration that happens to all languages in migration is uniquely offensive when it happens in their country. quote:
The objection was never to what the USA was, nor its failings real or imagined, or what it was up to-- it was discomfort with the exclusiveness of the name, the assumed de-Americanizing of the other inhabitants of the continent, and to the assumptions involved in it. Even as recently as the 1970s, history writer Pierre Berton complained that Canadians were Americans too.
Nothing will be done about it and nothing can be done about it; it is just one of those odd little irritants.
quote:In fairness, Europeans were calling the inhabitants of the British colonies "Americans" since long before Independence.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
As I posted a week ago:
quote:
The objection was never to what the USA was, nor its failings real or imagined, or what it was up to-- it was discomfort with the exclusiveness of the name, the assumed de-Americanizing of the other inhabitants of the continent, and to the assumptions involved in it. Even as recently as the 1970s, history writer Pierre Berton complained that Canadians were Americans too.
Nothing will be done about it and nothing can be done about it; it is just one of those odd little irritants.
quote:And I think people covered that by saying," name one country whose natives refer to themselves by their continent rather than their nation." And " name one country where the common name of the residents is not directly related to the name of the country."
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
As I posted a week ago:
quote:
The objection was never to what the USA was, nor its failings real or imagined, or what it was up to-- it was discomfort with the exclusiveness of the name, the assumed de-Americanizing of the other inhabitants of the continent, and to the assumptions involved in it. Even as recently as the 1970s, history writer Pierre Berton complained that Canadians were Americans too.
Nothing will be done about it and nothing can be done about it; it is just one of those odd little irritants.
quote:Thanks. Good point, but most importantly, EXCELLENT CONCLUSION.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
When states are born from civil strife, dividing a pre-existing entity, names can be problematic. One possible parallel is that of Ireland. Everyone from the island can ask to be entitled to being called Irish, but the Irish from the Republic of Ireland are Irish in a legal sense which Irish from Ireland outside the Republic are not. It happens that Ulster is not a tidy name (as there are bits of Ulster in the Republic) so that name has never worked for them either. It will also be a source of resigned grumbling, but as long as it doesn't get in the way of dinner....
quote:That's the kind of thing I turned up.
Originally posted by Stetson:
In fairness, Europeans were calling the inhabitants of the British colonies "Americans" since long before Independence.
Samuel Johnson, for example, said "I can respect any man but an American". I don't think he was meaning to include South American aboriginals in that. And when De Tocqueville wrote "Democracy In America". I think he meant the USA and nowhere else.
So, exclusionist though it may be, you can't realy blame Americans for using the term that everyone else uses to describe them.
quote:Yeah and if someone calls me a norteamericano or an estadounidense or a Yank or whatever, I couldn't care less, it's when I call myself American and some rude asshole says I can't call myself that, is when I get pissed. I occasionally get people who tell me I am pronouncing " Alves" wrong-- that pisses me off, too. It's my goddamn name.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I just wanted to add that I'm not bothered too much by being inaccurately identified. Most people here in Brazil say that I'm holandês. I'm from the Netherlands, but not from the historical region of Holland. To give you an idea: this would be equivalent to calling someone from Wales or Scotland 'English' just because he's from the UK.
If I were a purist, I could insist on being called neerlandês or something like that. But I really can't be bothered.
quote:But "America" is not the name of a continent. There is no continent named "America." There is a continent named "North America" and there is a continent named "South America" and conjointly they are referred to as "The Americas." But there is no continent named "America."
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And I think people covered that by saying," name one country whose natives refer to themselves by their continent rather than their nation." And " name one country where the common name of the residents is not directly related to the name of the country."
quote:Can I just register the perhaps irrelevant observation that I HATE it when people use "North American" to refer JUST to the US and Canada? North America as a continent extends down to the end of Panama, and people between the Rio Grande and Colombia are just as much North Americans as are Americans and Canadians. We now return to your regularly-scheduled program.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Most people in South America use the term norteamericanos, but I don't find that fair to people from Canada and Mexico.
quote:I've often seen the following division, also used by official entities:
mousethief: Can I just register the perhaps irrelevant observation that I HATE it when people use "North American" to refer JUST to the US and Canada?
quote:The USA is the only country that has the word America as a part of it. It is the only country to which, in common parlance is referred to as America. By nearly the entire world.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
it was discomfort with the exclusiveness of the name,
quote:I don't agree. ISTM, there is more inference than implication.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
the assumed de-Americanizing of the other inhabitants of the continent, and to the assumptions involved in it.
quote:And this is the context in which the complaint most often surfaces. When someone is making a point.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Even as recently as the 1970s, history writer Pierre Berton complained that Canadians were Americans too.
quote:ISTM, it is only an irritant because the US is powerful. If it were a poor country, no one would care.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Nothing will be done about it and nothing can be done about it; it is just one of those odd little irritants.
quote:Yeah, I let it slip by when LeRoc made the comment about him not being bothered when people called him by something he didn't find correct. The only time-- here and off the Ship-- I have seen people arguing about the word American is when someone complains about Americans calling themselves American.
And this is the context in which the complaint most often surfaces. When someone is making a point.
quote:But didn't they? It is the United States of America. Not simply America. It is simply a description of the condition at the time. A little less unwieldy than The Semi-Independent Political Entities United Under a Federal Authority on the North American Continent.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe it was dumb of the Founding Fathers not to consider the continenal name
quote:That wasn't my intention. The fact that I'm not bothered by it doesn't imply some kind of judgement that other people shouldn't be bothered by it.
Kelly Alves: So, LeRoc's comment implied that it was fussy for Americans to be bothered by what other people called them.
quote:But you do make a point of not using the term American, against the express wishes of people who would prefer that you use that term for them.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:That wasn't my intention. The fact that I'm not bothered by it doesn't imply some kind of judgement that other people shouldn't be bothered by it.
Kelly Alves: So, LeRoc's comment implied that it was fussy for Americans to be bothered by what other people called them.
quote:Like what assumptions, exactly? And what does "de-Americanizing" mean?
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The objection was never to what the USA was, nor its failings real or imagined, or what it was up to-- it was discomfort with the exclusiveness of the name, the assumed de-Americanizing of the other inhabitants of the continent, and to the assumptions involved in it.
quote:People can't dictate what I call them either. I don't use the name 'American' because that's confusing to me. I live in America. The people around me are Americans. The term 'from the US' is not insulting, and it is accurate. I've been using it in the 12.5 years I've been on the Ship, and I've never had a complaint. I bet people haven't even noticed.
Dave W.: But you do make a point of not using the term American, against the express wishes of people who would prefer that you use that term for them.
quote:This isn't something I would do. (I've never done anything like this on the Ship either.)
Kelly Alves: Real question-- if you walked into your office tomorrow, slapped your hand on a newspaper, and snapped, "typical American bullshit! " would they automatically assume you meant them?
quote:A taking away of legitimate status on the continent. Again, we refer back to an historic context where extensive if unsuccesful efforts were made by Benjamin Franklin and others to recruit the francophone settlers during the War of Independence, followed by one major military effort bring in the northern provinces, and a century of speeches advocating manifest destiny. The assumption was that Canada would, if the locals could but see the light, fall into the Union. Several presidents opposed this, including Lincoln and Grant, but this was a strong strain in political discourse for many years-- out of business for almost a century now, the idea only now raises its head in discussion of control and exploitation of resources, and alternative history aficionadi.
And what does "de-Americanizing" mean?
quote:Who said I was talking about on the Ship?
Originally posted by RuthW:
To Chastmastr:
... A search in Limbo turned up zero threads where you used the phrase "US citizens."
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
And I did say "mainly."quote:Good Lord, all this time I thought that they were the same thing, just that the Netherlands was the correct official name these days.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Most people here in Brazil say that I'm holandês. I'm from the Netherlands, but not from the historical region of Holland.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
quote:It's basically linguistic slippage: originally the emphasis of "United States of America" was that they were the states within America that had united, as opposed to the states that hadn't united. Over time it's changed, to English-speakers at least, to being thought of as "America, which is united".
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:But didn't they? It is the United States of America. Not simply America. It is simply a description of the condition at the time. A little less unwieldy than The Semi-Independent Political Entities United Under a Federal Authority on the North American Continent.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe it was dumb of the Founding Fathers not to consider the continenal name
quote:No.
Originally posted by orfeo:
As to the attack that is now turning on LeRoc: so wait, are you all not just complaining about "USian" now (which I could understand), but also complaining about saying something like "United States citizen"?
quote:Kelly didn't ask it, I did.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Kelly Alves asks:quote:A taking away of legitimate status on the continent.
And what does "de-Americanizing" mean?
quote:I don't think there is a universal convention about how many continents there are and how they are named. If I call everything from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego 'America' (Latin Americans sometimes do), then you may disagree with me, but there is nothing on which you can base that your understanding of the continents is the right one.
Dave W.: There's no continent called "America"
quote:And at least one of "all of us" said they didn't have a problem with different terms. It's being chastised about picking their own term that is the issue.
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:No.
Originally posted by orfeo:
As to the attack that is now turning on LeRoc: so wait, are you all not just complaining about "USian" now (which I could understand), but also complaining about saying something like "United States citizen"?
I'm complaining about the problem that people have with calling me and my fellow citizens "Americans." The argument that it's rude or exclusive or some such shit is ridiculous because it rests on the unfounded assumption that a word can only have one meaning. The name "Organization of American States" illustrates quite nicely that the term "American" may still and does mean "of the Americas."
quote:Thank you!
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't feel it as an attack, but thanks anyway.
(And I'd never use the term 'USian'.)
quote:Which either alienates Canada and Mexico or damns them by inclusion?
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The term they normally use here is norteamericana.
quote:Which is why I don't use the term norteamericanos, as I've explained before on this thread.
lilBuddha: Which either alienates Canada and Mexico or damns them by inclusion?
quote:I never said they were. I only said that I don't use the term.
lilBuddha: The point is that citizens of the US and, ahem, others who refer to one country when saying American are not slighting any other the other countries on the American continent(s).
quote:I for one am happy to handshake on that one.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:Which is why I don't use the term norteamericanos, as I've explained before on this thread.
lilBuddha: Which either alienates Canada and Mexico or damns them by inclusion?
quote:I never said they were. I only said that I don't use the term.
lilBuddha: The point is that citizens of the US and, ahem, others who refer to one country when saying American are not slighting any other the other countries on the American continent(s).
quote:I won't take that bet, because you'll win.
Kelly Alves: Since you are in Brazil, I am gonna bet you hear my last name pronounced with two syllables, too.
quote:Ah yes of course. People from Portugal and the Açores pronounce things rather differently from Brazil. I'd be more than happy to call you Alv's.
Kelly Alves: But my dad's people came from the Azores, and if i pronounce it with a silent E
quote:No problem.
lilBuddha: Le Roc,
Apologies. I suppose the second part should have been more addressed to the thread general rather than you.
quote:That's as may be, but Augustine the Aleut was explaining the objection to US citizens calling themselves "Americans", and they do not refer to everything from Alaska* to Tierra del Fuego "America". Latin American usage would be irrelevant to his explanation (unless the objectors are really desperate to find a rationale for their objection.)
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:I don't think there is a universal convention about how many continents there are and how they are named. If I call everything from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego 'America' (Latin Americans sometimes do), then you may disagree with me, but there is nothing on which you can base that your understanding of the continents is the right one.
Dave W.: There's no continent called "America"
quote:(Dave, maybe he thought lecturing me would be less risky than addressing you.)
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Kelly Alves asks:quote:A taking away of legitimate status on the continent. Again, we refer back to an historic context where extensive if unsuccesful efforts were made by Benjamin Franklin and others to recruit the francophone settlers during the War of Independence, followed by one major military effort bring in the northern provinces, and a century of speeches advocating manifest destiny. The assumption was that Canada would, if the locals could but see the light, fall into the Union. Several presidents opposed this, including Lincoln and Grant, but this was a strong strain in political discourse for many years-- out of business for almost a century now, the idea only now raises its head in discussion of control and exploitation of resources, and alternative history aficionadi.
And what does "de-Americanizing" mean?
quote:I was only reacting to the statement "There's no continent called America", made by two people on this thread. I don't think you can say this with this much conviction. The Wikipedia article 'continent' has interesting information about the models for counting / naming continents in different countries.
Dave W.: That's as may be
quote:My apologies to the fine people of Ellesmere Island.
Dave W.: *Why stop at Alaska? What's Ellesmere Island then, chopped liver? Delegitimizer!
quote:this came from. I didn't say it, or at least I don't see where I did.
you still seem to be asking me to understand that using this commonly used word for a group to which I belong can possibly designate someone who might support horrific, racist, ethnic cleansing policies from two centuries ago.
quote:Ah! I didn't know it was a matter of different regions. My long-time understanding (from school? travel shows?) was that "Holland" was something of an insult. Or is it that, too?
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I just wanted to add that I'm not bothered too much by being inaccurately identified. Most people here in Brazil say that I'm holandês. I'm from the Netherlands, but not from the historical region of Holland. To give you an idea: this would be equivalent to calling someone from Wales or Scotland 'English' just because he's from the UK.
If I were a purist, I could insist on being called neerlandês or something like that. But I really can't be bothered.
quote:And yet when I asked what "de-Americanizing" meant, you responded with a litany of complaints about past US behavior. Not that there's anything wrong with complaining about past US behavior - there's plenty to dislike. But complaining about the usage of "American" seems about the pettiest, most petulant manifestation of resentment towards the US.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
This has nothing to do with (IIRC my previous statement) any real or imagined wrongs of the USA.
quote:My understanding is, the "Manifest" part of the phrase specifically grew out of a generally held belief that the American territories were being "cleansed" in various ways by "acts of God." I remember reading a letter dating from the Jamestown days in which an English captain gushed with joy about the fortuitous plague the Good Lord had visited upon the savage natives in the area. The phrase "manifest destiny", while it might have been committed to paper at a specific time, was an American mindset stated in various ways since the colonies began.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In Canada, Manifest Destiny refers to the annexationist sentiment intended to include the northern provinces in the USA. I recall references in the Ontario standard history texts and there are a thousand places to find such references; type "Canadian history manifest destiny" into google. From wider reading, I am aware that it involved expansion into Mexican territory, but I don't think that many Canadians know this-- and while I read pretty widely in US history, I actually was not aware of its application to the involuntary movement and transportation of Indian tribes.
quote:Nah, not really. 'Holland' is the legitimate name for part of the country. Etymologically, it means 'wood-land'.
Golden Key: Ah! I didn't know it was a matter of different regions. My long-time understanding (from school? travel shows?) was that "Holland" was something of an insult. Or is it that, too?
quote:(just to add) even leaving the Native Americans out of it, do you still not see how the average American might see this period in history as ugly and shameful, and might not want to have their permanent cultural identity associated with it?
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And my understanding is the phrase began to be invoked any time Americans wanted to expand anywhere, even if the end result might be war. And this included clearing out the Midwest territories for American settlers to populate.
quote:I would say that they're in the same boat as Spaniards with the reconquista, French with the annexation of Brittany, Russians with the expansion into the Caucasus, Canadians and Australians with the marginalization of aboriginal populations, or Germans with the doings of the Hohenzollerns. We are all inheritors (and often beneficiaries) of unpleasant histories.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:(just to add) even leaving the Native Americans out of it, do you still not see how the average American might see this period in history as ugly and shameful, and might not want to have their permanent cultural identity associated with it?
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And my understanding is the phrase began to be invoked any time Americans wanted to expand anywhere, even if the end result might be war. And this included clearing out the Midwest territories for American settlers to populate.
quote:Agreed. Key word-- All.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:I would say that they're in the same boat as Spaniards with the reconquista, French with the annexation of Brittany, Russians with the expansion into the Caucasus, Canadians and Australians with the marginalization of aboriginal populations, or Germans with the doings of the Hohenzollerns. We are all inheritors (and often beneficiaries) of unpleasant histories.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:(just to add) even leaving the Native Americans out of it, do you still not see how the average American might see this period in history as ugly and shameful, and might not want to have their permanent cultural identity associated with it?
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And my understanding is the phrase began to be invoked any time Americans wanted to expand anywhere, even if the end result might be war. And this included clearing out the Midwest territories for American settlers to populate.
quote:One of the things that makes me suspect I have spectrum issues is my compulsive need to address things that are clearly a joke with a serious answer, so off I go..
Originally posted by RooK:
Heh. The 'Merkins be tetchy.
.
quote:My understanding, educated in Canada is the same your's.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In Canada, Manifest Destiny refers to the annexationist sentiment intended to include the northern provinces in the USA. I recall references in the Ontario standard history texts and there are a thousand places to find such references; type "Canadian history manifest destiny" into google. From wider reading, I am aware that it involved expansion into Mexican territory, but I don't think that many Canadians know this-- and while I read pretty widely in US history, I actually was not aware of its application to the involuntary movement and transportation of Indian tribes.
quote:Well, if you had a sense of humour....
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:One of the things that makes me suspect I have spectrum issues is my compulsive need to address things that are clearly a joke with a serious answer, so off I go..
Originally posted by RooK:
Heh. The 'Merkins be tetchy.
.
Everybody be techy about something. But sometimes it seems like one of those " I am righteously affronted, you are tetchy, he/ she/ it is a defensive reactionary" things, when it comes to who gets to articulate their techiness.
For example: Humor, humor, humor, humor! Suck on my American Standard Spelling! SUCK IT!
quote:
As various of we Americans have pointed out on various related threads, American mythology is a large chunk of the problem. There are variations, but IMHO the main theme is something like this:
{Note: I DO NOT ENDORSE THIS!!!}
Our European ancestors were facing trials, tribulations, and persecutions back there. They couldn't follow their God-given faith. (Christianity, of course--nothing else counts.) So these Pilgrims bravely sailed to the New World, guided by the Manifest Destiny that God prepared for them. (Light to the world, etc.)
They bravely built settlements. They met and mingled with the local savages, who initially helped the Pilgrims learn how to live on this continent. But there was a falling out: the Indians didn't want to accept our clearly superior ways, nor acknowledge that God Had Given US This Place To Tame. So we fought them, which was unfortunate; but they clearly had it coming, because they weren't following God's will. Darn it, we tried to help the survivors out with education. We even gave them land to live on. We couldn't have been any fairer than that.
We civilized this country, with guns, determination, and grit, pushing ever westward. We cleared the land, and made it useful. We were pioneers. A man could work hard, get his own land, build a house with his own hands (and, sometimes, help from the neighbors). He had a God-given right to protect it from varmints, thieves, Injuns, and meddling governments. No one has the right to interfere with that--ever.
We're still pioneers. We're still manifestly destined. We lead the world in democracy, innovation, and military strength. We won't start a war (unless it's in our best interests); but, by gum, we will finish anyone who brings war to us.
May God bless and keep the United States of America, and may we always kick the asses of anyone who gets in our God-given way.
Does that make the situation a little clearer??
quote:Kiss my arse.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Well, if you had a sense of humour....
quote:There was some tension on the Csnadian left in the 60s and 70s, between Canadian nationalists who wanted to emphasize Canada's supposed victimhood at the hands of the Yanks, and more traditional leftists(suppoedly under the influence of draft-dodging American scholars) who preached that Canada itself was an imperial power. From what I can gather from reading the relavant sources, the nationalists REALLY did not like hearing the "imperial power" analysis.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:My understanding, educated in Canada is the same your's.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In Canada, Manifest Destiny refers to the annexationist sentiment intended to include the northern provinces in the USA. I recall references in the Ontario standard history texts and there are a thousand places to find such references; type "Canadian history manifest destiny" into google. From wider reading, I am aware that it involved expansion into Mexican territory, but I don't think that many Canadians know this-- and while I read pretty widely in US history, I actually was not aware of its application to the involuntary movement and transportation of Indian tribes.
I recall well Manifest Destiny being included during general discussion of colonialism in university history courses 35 years ago, carelessly eliding the 20th century European wars and traducing current American economic hegemony.
quote:Tease
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Kiss my arse.
quote:Aha. THEY do not refer to everything as "America".
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:That's as may be, but Augustine the Aleut was explaining the objection to US citizens calling themselves "Americans", and they do not refer to everything from Alaska* to Tierra del Fuego "America". Latin American usage would be irrelevant to his explanation (unless the objectors are really desperate to find a rationale for their objection.)
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:I don't think there is a universal convention about how many continents there are and how they are named. If I call everything from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego 'America' (Latin Americans sometimes do), then you may disagree with me, but there is nothing on which you can base that your understanding of the continents is the right one.
Dave W.: There's no continent called "America"
quote:I'm not asking anyone to only use the word the way we use it. Words can and frequently do have more than one meaning. All I'm saying is that you should call us what we call ourselves: Americans. That doesn't preclude your using the word to mean other things.
Originally posted by orfeo:
You simply cannot, with any equity, require people who are from parts of the world where "America" means the whole continent to only use the word "America" the way you would use it. Your usage is NOT correct, it's just yours.
quote:You don't consistently use the word 'American' when referring to yourselves. Interestingly, the OP of this thread — composed by Porridge whom I think is from the US — talks about 'US Shipmates' (twice) and about 'US nose-hair trimers'. Not 'American Shipmates'; 'US Shipmates'. In fact, the term 'America(n)' isn't mentioned in that post. I haven't seen you complaining about that.
RuthW: All I'm saying is that you should call us what we call ourselves: Americans.
quote:Is that really supposed to be a restatement of my position? (If so, how remarkable!)
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Aha. THEY do not refer to everything as "America".
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:That's as may be, but Augustine the Aleut was explaining the objection to US citizens calling themselves "Americans", and they do not refer to everything from Alaska* to Tierra del Fuego "America". Latin American usage would be irrelevant to his explanation (unless the objectors are really desperate to find a rationale for their objection.)
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:I don't think there is a universal convention about how many continents there are and how they are named. If I call everything from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego 'America' (Latin Americans sometimes do), then you may disagree with me, but there is nothing on which you can base that your understanding of the continents is the right one.
Dave W.: There's no continent called "America"
I'm amazed at the failure to grasp the point.
Because, you see, apparently, when English-speakers say "America" and mean the USA, it's important that this bit of self-determination be exercised and no-one can tell you that it's not the usage they would use.
Whereas, when a Spanish or Portuguese-speaker says "America" and means the whole (double) continent, including the part that they themselves live in, that's just their peculiar idiosyncratic approach and really they should use the word 'properly'?
quote:In the UK, some people from Wales or Scotland would regard being called "English" an insult. Likewise, "Russia" and "USSR" were often used synonymously in the West, which presumably annoyed Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Latvians etc.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:Nah, not really. 'Holland' is the legitimate name for part of the country. Etymologically, it means 'wood-land'.
Golden Key: Ah! I didn't know it was a matter of different regions. My long-time understanding (from school? travel shows?) was that "Holland" was something of an insult. Or is it that, too?
Holland is the more urbanised part of the country, where the larger cities are: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague ... It is also the part from which the country is governed.
As in many countries, there is some ressentment in the more rural parts towards people from the urban regions (calling them things like 'arrogant loud-mouths'), but when people say they feel insulted when someone from abroad says they're from Holland, they're just nagging.
quote:I know. Like I said before, I'd probably be within my rights somewhat to feel insulted when someone calls my country 'Holland', but I can't be bothered much.
JoannaP: In the UK, some people from Wales or Scotland would regard being called "English" an insult.
quote:"Europe" gets more confusing as it is also used as short hand for those with EU membership (which excludes eg Switzerland and Norway) and as for Eurovision, I think Australia are competing this year.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
On a different tangent, most people in the UK seem to cope with "Europe" having two meanings, one including Britain and one excluding it. We can generally work out which one is meant from context. It may not be ideal, but it works fine in practice. I don't see why "American" can't be similar; the same term has different connotations in different contexts. It's hardly unknown in the English language.
quote:Because the USA hasn't the same government, and Canada (and Mexico) have been concerned long term about the USA wanting (a) annex (b) otherwise completely control economically.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
On a different tangent, most people in the UK seem to cope with "Europe" having two meanings, one including Britain and one excluding it. We can generally work out which one is meant from context. It may not be ideal, but it works fine in practice. I don't see why "American" can't be similar; the same term has different connotations in different contexts. It's hardly unknown in the English language.
quote:Canada and Mexico.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Confused here: the US hasn't the same government as what/whom?
quote:What? That's the first time I've ever heard that suggested by anyone, anywhere. Are you being serious here?
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
(a) annex
quote:Well, as some of the US participants on this thread seem to want to go back 250 years to make their point, I suppose one could point out that as recently as just before the 1914-18 war, the US was seen as a real threat to Canadian independence. THere'd been a long history of invasions, and support for private invasion (the Fenians). Forts were being built in Canada facing south, as late as the 1880s. The reason the UK maintained a naval base at Nanaimo BC until just before the 1914-18 war was because of fears -- British as well as Canadian -- that the US would try to invade if the Royal Navy was not there to stop them.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:What? That's the first time I've ever heard that suggested by anyone, anywhere. Are you being serious here?
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
(a) annex
And I'm half-serious when I ask, what makes you think we'd want either country?
quote:Well, annexing Mexico might be one way of handling illegal immigration--just make everyone in Mexico a citizen of the US. But I think it's a terrible idea.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:What? That's the first time I've ever heard that suggested by anyone, anywhere. Are you being serious here?
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
(a) annex
And I'm half-serious when I ask, what makes you think we'd want either country?
quote:This is the kind of common sense that could catapult Hell into an existential vortex.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
What I am suggesting is that the term "American" is ambiguous and has two separate (but overlapping) meanings:
(a) of, from or relating to the United States of America
(b) of, from or relating to The Americas.
It may be used more often with one meaning than the other, but that does not mean that the second meaning is invalid. "Washington" may be used more often to denote the eastern city but it still refers to the western state as well. Similarly the existence of two different meanings does not necessarily suggest any confusion between The Americas and the USA; they remain distinct concepts.
quote:Nope .
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What I hear you saying, John Holding, is that " the Americans" are somehow being selfindulgent to point out that use of the word "American" in reference to a US national began internationally 250 years before any if us got here, but that holding those same Americans accountable for stuff an entirely different group of Americans did those same couple hundred years ago is reasonable.
if one really wanted to play that game, one could point out that most of those Americans were probably first generation immigrants themselves, and got all their ideas about how to establish territorial prestige from England, France, Spain, and Portugal. They sure weren't getting them from the Cheyenne.
quote:Just "some people"? Certainly in Scotland (I don't know Wales as well), that would be almost universally considered an insult.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
In the UK, some people from Wales or Scotland would regard being called "English" an insult.
quote:You do not see the difference between a practice that started long ago( e.g., the town was named x since 1700) and an occurance that happened long ago( an army marched into the town in 1750)?
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:Nope .
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What I hear you saying, John Holding, is that " the Americans" are somehow being selfindulgent to point out that use of the word "American" in reference to a US national began internationally 250 years before any if us got here, but that holding those same Americans accountable for stuff an entirely different group of Americans did those same couple hundred years ago is reasonable.
if one really wanted to play that game, one could point out that most of those Americans were probably first generation immigrants themselves, and got all their ideas about how to establish territorial prestige from England, France, Spain, and Portugal. They sure weren't getting them from the Cheyenne.
I'm saying that if its fair to base your arguments on something that happened 250 years ago, then it's fair for those with a different point of view to base their arguments on a somewhat less remote period of history.
No one on this thread, so far as I can see, is accusing all US citizens, or even most US citizens, and certainly not those alive today of any crime or other sin.
What I can't understand is why it is so offensive to have a perspective different from yours, which is certainly the way it looks from here. But I'm not going to follow that thought, even in Hell.
John
quote:At least the only ones we know about. How disappointing it will be when we finally contact other intelligent species and find they're just as fucked up as we are.
Originally posted by RooK:
I'm often embarrassed about admitting that I live on Earth. It's where all the small-minded petty people live.
quote:I keep hoping BC will annex western Washington. Although things aren't going in a good direction in politics in the Great White North, as near as I can tell.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Not good to annex Canada, either. If we did, developers would probably go up there and tear down nature to put up high-rises.
quote:All this discussion about hiistory and etymology is just dandy, but the rest of what I said is what constitutes the real problem to me, and nobody's really picked up on it:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
That's beside the point, though. The point is, according to my poking around, that Europeans quickly began using using the word " American" to refer to the former colonists even before they were former colonists, that the most commonly used word used for a US resident in-- oh, pick a language-- is some cognate of "American" (even, as it turns out, in the places where the use of the word is most loudly protested), that the word " American" is used to refer to people and things pertaining to the US in many treaties, UN documents, and other formal writing, that even the damn BBC US affiliate has " America " in the title, but despite the fact that most of the fucking world is calling US residents "American' "when Americans call themselves what they been called for 250 years, that is arrogance and cultural domination.
quote:Perhaps to add: and stuff John Quincy Adams and his cronies got up to once upon a time, without any of his descendant's permission.
do notice that various members of the Ship have no problem using that supposedly inaccurate word as a perjorative, though. Try bringing up cheese or beer. You can have half a dozen US shipmates chiming in on a foodie thread about the great blue cheese variety put out by their local dairies, or recommending nice porters put out by craft breweries, and someone will invariably scroll past all that and say, " It's a pity Americans only have that one variety of bland yellow cheddar available." Or " that cheap dishwater piss that Americans seem to prefer. "
Reading through the thread, it is happening from the beginning-- certain negative traits are called out as. " american" and when it is pointed out that whole states or entire regions of the US do not generally carry those traits-- oh, well, those areas are not really. "American. "
Bullshit. Yes, they are. Why is it such poisonous idea to some people that the US might contain the occasional good person, good place, good idea?
<snip>
Maybe it would be better to say that it seems like most Shipmates are interested in learning about each other's experience, viewpoints, and general lives. But it's like a record scratch when ( for instance) in a friendly discussion about the variety of ways people are celebrating Pancake Day, one group of people are told they can't call their variation a pancake. ( "
Whatever about US politics and cultural trends-- I am willing to bet I hate exactly the same things about those topics that the average Brit does. <snip>
This isn't about what y'all think about the American nation, it's about what you think of your fellow Shipmates who are American. And as I have said before, we have prayed with you, argued with you, wept with you, rejoiced with you, formed policies with you, teetered on the brink of destruction with you since 1998. Check the Archives yourselves-- Murricans have bern here from the beginning. It would be nice, is all, if whatever insight and knowledge you have gotten from us about American life would dominate over the tired old sketchy tropes that keep coming up.
quote:Alas, we took the etymological road rather than the "Hey! We don't like it when you get the etymology right but suggest we're a cultural wasteland!" road.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
but the rest of what I said is what constitutes the real problem to me, and nobody's really picked up on it:
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
quote:Please God, no. I'm really looking forward to taking last place in the alien-better-than-thou stakes. It would totally be worth the embarrassment.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:At least the only ones we know about. How disappointing it will be when we finally contact other intelligent species and find they're just as fucked up as we are.
Originally posted by RooK:
I'm often embarrassed about admitting that I live on Earth. It's where all the small-minded petty people live.
quote:Yeah, there is a reason that the American members that are here never collected on the Wittenburg Door message boards (when they existed)-- we can say anything we want about US politics and religion, without having to worry about people accusing us of being UnAmerican or UnChristian.
Originally posted by orfeo:
As a Canberran I'm completely bloody sick of the way I get equated with "Canberra", as in the federal politicians, which is probably one reason I enjoy international forums - it's only other Australians who are liable to (a) talk as if the locals make decisions, rather than the 200 people the rest of the country voted in, or (b) indicate at the first opportunity that I live somewhere freezing cold. But complaining doesn't seem to stop anyone doing it.
quote:Aaaaaand every point about the fact that this is not true for everyone, everywhere on the planet just sailed right over your ugly little head, didn't it?
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I have never heard the word America used in any other sense than meaning the USA. Americas clearly refers to North, Central and South America as a group.
American, however, could easily refer to anyone living in the Americas, but I don't hear that, except when someone is choosing to argue the point.
quote:In general resources. But we happily ship them to you by rail, by road, and sometimes by pipeline. The latter depends on what is in the pipes.
Originally posted by jbohn:
Well, you know, 150 years or so ago, some folks thought annexing the both of them would be a Good Thing.
Proof positive that we Americans, here in 2015, are an existential threat to both of our neighbors. We obviously covet their...
...I forgot - what do we covet of theirs, exactly?
[x-post]
