Thread: Is "I don't give a Fuck" the new societal breakdown indicator? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Fabricate Diem PVNC (# 18459) on
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Rant alert...
Stressful IKEA visit (one in five visits seem like the scrum round a euro tunnel entrance when the security cameras malfunction) ending in me being blocked in at the loading bay by someone parked across the end of my car, in the 'road' Despite three empty loading bays yards away, blocking me in. I asked why and got the normal arseholes response "I'll only be a minute" and when I asked why he didn't use the very nearby spaces he told me "do I look like I give a fuck" to which point I replied (I really said this, used these actual words) "if you did, you would be a better member of society" at which point after a few more minor comments ( including me asking him if he really was going to be be dumb enough to start trouble when there were masses of security cameras pointing at him) and staring, he got out of the car and said "nobody talks to me like that" and tried to pull me out of the car and punch me.... Interestingly there was the biggest IKEA employee I have ever seen around, and he (encouraged) kept me in the car and made the mad man get in his. My point is, I seem fated to get this response when making the most trifling comment on the rude unthinking and self centred behaviour of people. Is it because nothing ever happens to dissuade these people from acting like arseholes wherever they go? Should I have turned the other cheek, or tried (probably unsuccessfully) to beat the crap out of him?
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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Personally I'd have given him a few minutes. Some people are inconsiderate arseholes and starting a fight with them has a lot of similarities with wrestling with a pig - you both get covered in mud and the pig enjoys it. Put the radio on and wait for the arsehole to piss off.
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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I fully understand why you said what you said- what ridiculous, selfish aggressive behaviour from that man!
Having taught for seven years in a school for boys with very challenging behaviour I learned from watching people crash and burn that no matter how justifiably furious I was, the only chance I had of changing someone else's' appalling behaviour was by staying calm, staying with the issue and not getting personal. I have used this technique outside the classroom on many occasions mostly successfully but not always- in which case keeping myself safe becomes the priority. But sometimes you just encounter people who cannot be persuaded and who insist on behaving like idiots.
And it does worry me how this attitude of selfish entitlement seems to be growing. As long as I've got breathe I'll try to fight it by being the opposite but in all honesty it's bloody hard work!
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
MrsBeaky: Having taught for seven years in a school for boys with very challenging behaviour I learned from watching people crash and burn that no matter how justifiably furious I was, the only chance I had of changing someone else's' appalling behaviour was by staying calm, staying with the issue and not getting personal.
I agree with you, but I also admit that this is a situation that would really light my fuse. I don't know if I'd be able to pull it off.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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"Other people" have been like this for centuries before Jean-Paul Sartre articulated it. The best we can do in response to "White van man" and the like is to not add to the sum total of misery and frustration in the world.
Alternatively, start a full-on revolution to tackle the more serious cases of selfish entitlement syndrome.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
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I probably seem preachy here. (I often am, I suppose.) As I write this I can recall countless times when I just had to say something myself, so I am writing out of the same sets of emotion and experience as you.
I have a choice when someone does something rude/thoughtless, etc. I can need to react and let that person know the error of their ways. I can get up in that person's face and be aggressive. I can do any number of things that will "teach them a lesson" in . . . pick your lesson.
My experience is that the rude and thoughtless person is not going to learn jack shit. Why? Because a lecture is just going to give them a place to hide from their own behavior. As in "I was just there a minute. Couldn't that jerk have waited? I would have been gone long ago." It may seem amazing, but my experience is that most people think little outside of their own circumstance.
My other choice in those situations is to draw back from my go to emotions and breathe. Ask myself if reacting is going to help me, or make things worse. More often than not, the only thing my getting angry at some jerk accomplishes is making myself feel worse without affecting the other person at all.
One of the more life enhancing things I am beginning to learn is that I have a choice about how to react. I have a choice about whether or not I let my emotions take over and run the show.
Every time I make a wiser choice about my emotions, I am better off. It doesn't matter about the person creating the disturbance. Let them run their own life.
Posted by Fabricate Diem PVNC (# 18459) on
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I suppose that having swallowed hard and not said something many many times, this one hit the spot and I acted..... Did I mention it was hot and there was a twenty five minute wait at the tills then a half hour wait for some piddling component from the utterly misnamed 'customer service area'...
Surely that makes me holy for not considering violence first and instead leading with a middle class exposition of their societal foibles.....
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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Behaviour and attitudes are taught, by parents and the communities we are brought up in. We have allowed and encouraged the entitlement and blame culture to influence generations of people, to take over from the polite and considerate culture of earlier generations. The down side of the latter was perhaps to help perpetuate the exploitation of the working classes, as well as allowing poor service.
The more I observe the behaviour of other people, the more I see that in most cases they could do no other, as they don't consciously decide to be inconsiderate, they just are. Only by showing the example of patience and consideration might they reflect and learn. Loving them anyway is possible.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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I have learned to be angry with such behaviour too. My natural reponse is parallel to your's. I have been trying for several decades to try not to respond with anger. Sometimes it seems very hard not to.
Not being in the scene with you it is very hard to know any different paths. Two that occur as armchair speculation.
What if you had locked your car, told staff that you obviously needed to go for coffee? Second is to follow the man and say to him that you were going to help him. The point is to not reflect antisocial behaviour but to provide a response that doesn't choose the two the situation seems to ask for: anger or deference.
FWIW it was worse in 1975 re this attitude or perhaps I experience more deference due to my age.
[ 22. August 2015, 14:06: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fabricate Diem PVNC:
"if you did, you would be a better member of society"
The rot set in when Thatcher claimed that there was no such thing as 'society.'
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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It does feel a bit unsatisfactory though. They get to fuck up shit and our best response is to keep calm and say nothing.
[ 22. August 2015, 14:45: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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It is, oh how it is! My response would have been to passively-aggressively make it REALLY obvious that I was staring at him. And making rude comments whoever was with me.
I don't think I could have resisted. Probably would have got my lights punched out.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
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quote:
"do I look like I give a fuck"
'Yes - you struck me as a busy man with a lot on, who might understand that I'm under pressure too. I'm sorry to have been so presumptuous as to have overestimated you'.
Never comes in the moment, does it. Least, never to me.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The rot set in when Thatcher claimed that there was no such thing as 'society.'
This had diddley-squat to do with society, or with Thatcher. FD PVNC's example is of one individual human being a selfish arsehole to one other individual human. We don't need to invoke "society" in order to notice this.
It's like the neighbour who brings his dog round to crap on your lawn because he doesn't want it on his own.
[ 22. August 2015, 15:40: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The rot set in when Thatcher claimed that there was no such thing as 'society.'
This had diddley-squat to do with society, or with Thatcher. FD PVNC's example is of one individual human being a selfish arsehole to one other individual human. We don't need to invoke "society" in order to notice this.
It's like the neighbour who brings his dog round to crap on your lawn because he doesn't want it on his own.
Yes, but the neighbour who did that used to be universally derided. Thatcher made it okay to say, "Everybody is a selfish fuck. Get over it."
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The rot set in when Thatcher claimed that there was no such thing as 'society.'
This had diddley-squat to do with society, or with Thatcher. FD PVNC's example is of one individual human being a selfish arsehole to one other individual human. We don't need to invoke "society" in order to notice this.
It's like the neighbour who brings his dog round to crap on your lawn because he doesn't want it on his own.
What Mousethief said.
And it is quite clear from the OP that 'society' is the issue - read it again. Thatcher supporters blame the 1960s for being when the rot set in - it is clear that it is Thatcher who started the rot.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It is, oh how it is! My response would have been to passively-aggressively make it REALLY obvious that I was staring at him. And making rude comments whoever was with me.
I don't think I could have resisted. Probably would have got my lights punched out.
I mutter under my breath a lot. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
While I agree with most of Tortuf's excellent post, I'm going to invoke " tolerance for other's with different struggles" in regards to the idea of "choosing not to be angry" thing. First of all, anger is very often a biochemical response: we may choose how to manage it, but IMO it is not helpful at all to suggest we not feel it.
Here's where " different struggles" comes in-- my goto/ default coping mechanism is dissociation. If I was shouted at in a car park, my reaction would be to huddle in terror. If I was angry, I would not be able to really feel it till hours later. So, my healthy response is gonna be a lot different than that of, say, someone who is trying to recover from allowing anger to go from 0 to 100.
So, for me-- yeah, it is important to allow myself that moment of indignation-- this is jerkish behavior that I do not deserve.
That doesn't mean it will serve anyone to escalate the situation, but I can't let myself go numb. That is spiritual poison to me. So, my desired default nowadays is to think something along the lines of, what an ass. Yep, that is asslike behavior. Boy, this will make a hilarious status update. And then focus on whatever task actually sent me into Ikea, or whatever.
And this doesn't mean I might not evolve better strategies down the line, but for me, denying that I feel anger is my default for neglecting to manage it, so that won't work.
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on
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Don't get made get even, i.e. walk to the front of the queue and speak to the ikea employee and insist he isn't served until he moves his car and/or insist they exercise their right to fine him for parking in the wrong place.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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That is a perfectly valid, rational response. As is giving yourself permission to spend five minutes feeling as mad as you damn well please, without either judging youself or acting on it.
Just watch the feeling as it passes by-- rght? That's an old school therapy tool, right?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Watch it like the scenery passing by, or the clouds overhead on their way - if you can. Takes a lot of practice and letting go. Ah well, I am 70, and I can do it about 0.1% of the time.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I meant five seconds, sorry. Five minutes and it would be far too late to deck the guy, even if you sorted out that was a rational, valid response.
One therapist I saw had this thing where she told you to get to a quiet space, envision the asshole in a loving pink bubble of warmth, have that lovely bubble float far, far over the ocean, and telepathically explode the damn thing in a shower of light and rainbows.
Try it. I's surprisingly entertaining.
[ 22. August 2015, 19:26: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I meant five seconds, sorry. Fve minutes and it would be far too late to deck the guy, even if you sorted out that was a rational, valid response.
One therapist I saw had this thing where she told you to get to a quiet space, envision the asshole in a loving pink bubble of warmth, have that lovely bubble float far, far over the ocean, and telepathically explode the damn thing in a shower of light and rainbows.
Try it. I's surprisingly entertaining.
Reminds me of the song Al Stewart wrote in anger at a lover who had jilted him. Rather than saying "I hate you you ruined my life," he paints her as the smug and pompous captain of a pirate ship whose crew mutinees and which sinks in a storm in the middle of the ocean. If you're going to take revenge, do it in style.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Heh, come to think it, she actually stopped in the middle of describing it to the group to say, " Kelly, you'll love this one..."
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I meant five seconds, sorry. Fve minutes and it would be far too late to deck the guy, even if you sorted out that was a rational, valid response.
One therapist I saw had this thing where she told you to get to a quiet space, envision the asshole in a loving pink bubble of warmth, have that lovely bubble float far, far over the ocean, and telepathically explode the damn thing in a shower of light and rainbows.
Try it. I's surprisingly entertaining.
Reminds me of the song Al Stewart wrote in anger at a lover who had jilted him. Rather than saying "I hate you you ruined my life," he paints her as the smug and pompous captain of a pirate ship whose crew mutinees and which sinks in a storm in the middle of the ocean. If you're going to take revenge, do it in style.
Ah, yes. Trauma lines a writer's wallet. : D
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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I'm with Kelly on this one. You can't always control your psychology: I do have feelings of anger and even aggression when this happens. This kind of revenge fantasies can be a great way to control them.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
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In case anyone thinks I am claiming some sort of spiritual high ground, a recent me incident:
I bought an expensive (OK $30.00) watch with a metal band assuming it was adjustable. It wasn't. Nothing I had at home would get the pins holding the links of the band out to shorten the band. I took it to a hardware store to see if they had anything. Nope.
Mr. Spiritual then got angry. My thought process was(hate to call it thought, but there you are) "I am not going to spend more on getting the band adjusted than the watch. I'll just trade it for another watch that is adjustable." And when I allowed myself to get really worked up - "I'm gonna smash that mother with a hammer."
When I calmed down (with help) I took it to the watch kiosk at a mall close to my office where I spent the huge sum of $10.00 and it was adjusted in less than one minute. A fool and his watch are soon repaired.
I only achieve serenity on those occasions when I am mindful. Even then I have to step back from my initial response. Practice is making that stepping back faster. The initial does not go away.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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These posts remind me why I avoid anything resembling a queue. I'll even walk a stop away from the bus station to avoid a mass of people. Ditto the staff restaurant if more than ten people are in line.
There's simply too much potential for selfishness and stupidity and I want none of it.
Posted by saysay (# 6645) on
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The last time I tried to deal with my general hatred of humanity by hiding in the middle of nowhere and limiting my contact with other human beings, they threw me into a prison with people who literally spit on me and touched me all the time in spite of my wishes.
Now I try to remind myself that everybody's going through something and you never know when someone's rude behavior is being caused by the fact that their parent just died, they just received a fatal cancer diagnosis, or even the fact that they were up all night with a sick kid.
I don't think it's working, though. My coworkers tend to apologize for being in the same room or same hallway as me because they feel like they're annoying me by existing.
Trying to love people the way G-d does sucks the sweat off a dead man's balls.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I only achieve serenity on those occasions when I am mindful. Even then I have to step back from my initial response. Practice is making that stepping back faster. The initial does not go away.
Yes, exactly.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm with Kelly on this one. You can't always control your psychology: I do have feelings of anger and even aggression when this happens. This kind of revenge fantasies can be a great way to control them.
Well the neat thing about my (very daffy, TOTALLY crunchy-hippy) counselor's little visualization exercise is that, while it is just violent enough to give a zing of pleasure, all that warm pink bubble and sunlight and rainbows jazz frames your activity as "I am not letting this person take up space in my head, I am leaving him/ her in the hands of God and poof! at this moment they just don't exist to me." Getting too wrapped up in revenge fantasies is not healing. Silliness is, IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Watch it like the scenery passing by, or the clouds overhead on their way - if you can. Takes a lot of practice and letting go. Ah well, I am 70, and I can do it about 0.1% of the time.
See, I first read this as "I can do this in 1% of the time" (of the time I had stated, I presumed), and my reactionary mind said, "I didn't know it was a FUCKIN' CONTEST, Johnny ONE- UP" But I just watched that thought drift by like a leaf on a river. Good thing, too, because I can't read English, apparently.
[ 22. August 2015, 22:21: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
And when I allowed myself to get really worked up - "I'm gonna smash that mother with a hammer."
(Let it drift by... like a leaf...)
I was cleaning my room and the basement last week, and in the process of washing out a big glass vase I treasured, A gift from favorite cousin, I made one small movement with my wrist and knocked a big hole in it. No possibility of repairing it. SO I serenely brought it outside, I serenely placed it in a deep, empty dustbin, and I dropped a fucking brick on it.
It made me feel better.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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Ha! Kelly, that is awesome.
At work I regularly have to be nice to people who don't have to be nice to me, and while this still chaps my hide a bit, it doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. The important realization that has gradually changed my attitude is that often it sucks pretty bad to be an obnoxious asshole, and it's much easier in some respects to be me having to deal with an asshole than to be the asshole.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(Let it drift by... like a leaf...)
I can do this most of the time, especially with traffic related stuff, it doesn't bother me - let them get on with their silly petty selfishness.
BUT ... litter dropping and dog poo leaving make me fume. I'm fuming now even thinking about it ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
How can people care so little about their lovely environment?
[ 23. August 2015, 08:40: Message edited by: Boogie ]
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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Absurd revenge fantasies can simultaneously vent your anger and make you laugh.
When I was a graduate student a group of us went to a lake, rented canoes, put our camping gear in them, and set off to camp on an island. It was Memorial Day weekend, and there were a lot of power boats on the lake. Unfortunately, many of them were piloted by people who did not realize that their wake could constitute a serious hazard for canoes. There was a law that power boats were supposed to slow to five miles an hour within a hundred feet of a canoe. These idiots didn't know that. All in all it was a hairy experience.
There were several physicists and engineers in the group. While we sat around the campfire that evening, they had a deadpan discussion of how you would go about launching a torpedo from a canoe. I couldn't follow the technicalities, but the humor came through loud and clear. It made everyone feel much better.
Moo
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
.... SO I serenely brought it outside, I serenely placed it in a deep, empty dustbin, and I dropped a fucking brick on it.
It made me feel better.
I've worked with memorials, sign-making and plaques for many years. Dropping stuff on the floor is a big no no. With polished stone and surfaces all chips, dings and scratches are on the absolute ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
list.
So one day when a large slab of stone fell from the fork-lift and broke into many pieces, I just stood there looking at the damage and satisfaction was the main feeling. In fact the more pieces in had broken into the more satisfied I'd have felt.
Pretty bloody alarming in one way, pretty understandable in another.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Kelly Alves: Getting too wrapped up in revenge fantasies is not healing. Silliness is, IMO.
That's why I said this kind of revenge fantasies ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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No worries, I was merely clarifying in case my own comments came across too strongly.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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And here was I hoping you got so frustrated with my post that it would lead to some inventive revenge fantasies about me.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
And here was I hoping you got so frustrated with my post that it would lead to some inventive revenge fantasies about me.
You're angling for that one with the handcuffs, the hot chocolate and the electric eel, aren't you?
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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Darn, am I so transparent?
I do feel sorry for the eel though (I had to say that )
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