JoannaP: What about the Lubitz family? Are they guilty by association and thus not deserving of your sympathy? By all accounts they too are suffering anguish as well
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quote:You got a mouse in your pocket?
Originally posted by stonespring:
But I think that the temptation to cause mass destruction......is something we all have gnawing at us
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quote:Like Samson?
Originally posted by stonespring:
if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass"
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, any remains would've been thrown far from the plane--and the cockpit seats might be pulverized. quote:If the only noise is the co-pilot's normal breathing, ISTM that doesn't necessarily mean any more than that he was conscious. And it seems like there wasn't a sound from locking the door from the inside. Maybe it was too quiet. I don't know.
The prosecutor described the flight’s final 10 minutes. He said the captain left the cockpit, perhaps to use the bathroom, leaving the co-pilot alone at the controls to start the plane’s descent.
The captain is heard pleading to be let back in, but there is no response, the only cockpit noise, the sound of the co-pilot breathing normally, with passengers heard screaming just before the moment of impact.
quote:I heard that - and they also said it wasn't suicide.
Originally posted by orfeo:
But no-one is framing this as terrorism. The investigating authorities have explicitly said they have no evidence of this being terrorism.
quote:There seems to have been deliberate actions which prevented the other pilot from entering the cockpit. As far as we know (which, of course, might be totally wrong but appears to have come from the investigators) the person at the controls was conscious and was in full control.
I would also hesitate to call this mass murder, although I also acknowledge the Marseille prosecutor's hesitation to call it suicide given that suicide doesn't normally involve taking 149 people with you. But it is very much a question of where his mental focus was: did he have intent to kill others while accepting he would die in the bargain, or did he have intent to kill himself and not care sufficiently about the lives of others?
quote:I think the point is that it is a chaotic audio situation and they are giving preliminary conclusions which may not hold up to final scrutiny. For example, perhaps, it might be proven later that the pilot fell into a coma and that the door jammed.
As to the suggestion earlier in the thread that investigators are working from limited information, I really don't think that's true. This is whole purpose of black box recorders, to maximise the information available. They have records of the plane's movements, but more importantly they have sound recordings. They can hear the calls from the control tower being received. They can hear the banging on the door. They can hear the co-pilot breathing.
quote:I think you lack imagination.
The only possible situation where this isn't deliberate is him somehow becoming completely incapacitated after (1) putting the plane into descent, and (2) locking the door. I'm not clear on whether locking the door is normal procedure when one of the pilots has left - it might be, given the whole purpose of the secure door post-9/11, but some of the commentary on this particular flight has not given me that impression. But there is no operational explanation for making the plane descend.
quote:There are some things the investigators know, or have not yet established from retrieved data, that have not yet been made public.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The door could have malfunctioned.
The guy could have been under hypnosis
He could have been having a heart attack and accidentally pressed the door button
quote:which means that intent is important.
the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims
quote:Apparently they've found things at the guy's house.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As to "terrorism", the Google definition saysquote:which means that intent is important.
the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims
Absent such intent, what we appear to be looking at can be described as murder-suicide.
quote:You know, I really thought that perhaps we were beyond those days of blaming every bad thing on video games, TV and movies. Don't get me wrong, I can see the enormous appeal of wanting to be able to do so. It is a horrible tragedy and like any other horrible tragedy we like to be able to reason it through and look for something to blame it on - anything in fact other than that a human being consciously made a decision to murder 150 other along with himself, and I know a big part of it is that we don't like to think that a human being like you and I could be capable of such a terrible act. He may have been in some way 'disturbed', but I had hoped that we had better insight today into mental illness and instability to be able to steer away from silly apportioning of blame to random externals. I know every society in every age has done it up to now, whether it be witches, a curse, the devil or a spirit; but really, I do wonder if we might finally abandon these ideas to truly get to an understanding of what it is internally within a person that brings them to make such a decision. I'm really not at all convinced that it is a reasoned process, a process effected in any way by externals (at least as they really are) or one unaffected by the chemical mix inside the individuals brain. I'm conscious too that even in saying this I might be falling into the very same trap of trying to reason what is essentially wholly unreasonable
It reminds me a lot of the explosions, fireballs, etc., that I grew up with in video games, cartoons, superhero and action movies etc. In this kind of media, buildings, cities, even planets can explode and hundreds or millions of CGI-animated people can drop dead or be vaporized around the hero (or antihero) while s/he escapes unharmed (or if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass").
quote:Under the assumption that the current theory of the co-pilot deliberately crashing the plane is confirmed: I would call him a mass murderer even in the second case, unless he can be considered to have been "insane" enough to not be able to perceive the consequences of his actions. Given what we know - that he he carried out a "normal" conversation till the pilot left the cockpit, and that he apparently was able to activate a two-step lock mechanism that kept the other pilot out - this is unlikely.
Originally posted by orfeo:
I would also hesitate to call this mass murder, although I also acknowledge the Marseille prosecutor's hesitation to call it suicide given that suicide doesn't normally involve taking 149 people with you. But it is very much a question of where his mental focus was: did he have intent to kill others while accepting he would die in the bargain, or did he have intent to kill himself and not care sufficiently about the lives of others?
quote:Seems to me that is a bit of an excuse.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ingo--
Though knowing what you're doing is wrong--or could at least have negative consequences--doesn't necessarily mean that you can do something else.
quote:If he could not do something else, then he was not culpable. If this was true here, then I would call the act mass murder, but not the actor a mass murderer. However, I do not believe this to be true based on the accounts we have so far. Frankly, I think any explanation of how this man manages to sit alone at the controls of an air plane, but then entirely loses all control over his suicidal ideations on one hand, while on the other remaining mentally capable enough to lock out the pilot (presumably predicting that the pilot wouldn't wish to die with him and would try to prevent this from happening!), is to me a "just so" story. We may just as well claim that the man was not culpable, because he was possessed by a demon, and the demon used this opportunity to assert itself.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Though knowing what you're doing is wrong--or could at least have negative consequences--doesn't necessarily mean that you can do something else.
quote:This video suggests that the two stage action is what is needed to unlock the door. Watching the video, the 'lock' action simply involves pushing the switch backward to a position from which it then springs back into the 'normal' position. This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The TV report I saw from inside a similar cockpit showed a toggle switch, guarded by protective housing. In order to engage it in the lock position, two mechanical operations are required.
1. To pull upwards positively on the toggle to release it prior to engaging the lock position. The toggle cannot be simply pushed into the lock position without that preliminary upward pull.
2. Then to push the toggle to the lock position, which is one of three positions the toggle may take.
quote:Yes, I thought of that one too. There is also the still unresolved question as to whether the driver of the train involved in the 1975 Moorgate crash suffered some kind of blackout, mistook his location, or deliberately ran his train into the tunnel wall. No-one will ever know for sure.
Originally posted by Enoch:
If so, that is both suicide and murder. There is no real space for debate or discussion about that.
The same applied to the man a few years ago who chose to commit suicide by deliberately driving onto a level crossing so as to crash an express west of Reading.
quote:I thought of this one too. I still remember an Evening Standard headline: "how did the almost impossible happen?". The questions don't change much 40 years on...
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is also the still unresolved question as to whether the driver of the train involved in the 1975 Moorgate crash suffered some kind of blackout, mistook his location, or deliberately ran his train into the tunnel wall. No-one will ever know for sure.
quote:I have indeed heard this theory put forward.
Or is there even the possibility that one feels one is doing them a favour by killing them, as clearly they must be experiencing the same degree of misery as oneself?
quote:I've not heard that view, but I can confidently say that I do not agree with it. Indeed, whoever propounded it, and however famous they may be, I'd be prepared to say it is objectively wrong.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Returning to the OP, wasn't there a philosopher (?Camus or Sartre) who suggested that suicide might possibly be construed as the one act which conferred the greatest personal significance upon its perpetrator? If that is so (and I'm not sure I agree with it), then it would make sense for a suicidal person to make sure they went out with the greatest "bang" possible.
quote:Interesting. Do we know how long the plane took to dive towards the crash?
Originally posted by BroJames:
This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
quote:
The Daily Mail story begins by narrating the pilot’s “’burnout’” and history of depression, before writing that “incredibly, he passed all his psychological assessments”. Aside from how outrageously incorrect the use of “incredibly” here is – the thing clearly happened - the suggestion that it’s impossible for someone with previous psychological problems to later be mentally well is naive and insulting. Again, people recover from depression all the time; going on to barely think about their illness.
Suggesting otherwise is – and here I refer again to the Samaritan guidelines – something likely to discourage vulnerable individuals. Given that one of the key symptoms of depression is feeling hopeless, an article that opens with the inference there’s no hope of recovery is what we in the trade call “totally fucking unhelpful”.
quote:Between eight and ten minutes. Subtract time for pilot to go to the loo and realise the problem. But even then, access denial can be extended. And the delay can be configured to longer.
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:Interesting. Do we know how long the plane took to dive towards the crash?
Originally posted by BroJames:
This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
quote:It isn't terrorism because the goal of terrorism is to force people to do what you want, to achieve political goals.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
My question then is how exactly they are defining terrorism and/or suicide such that killing a plane full of people and oneself isn't it..? If it isn't murder or terrorism, what is it?
quote:I have worked in mental health and in my experience suicidal depression can block out empathy for others, the person becomes inwardly focussed. The idea of doing others a favour by taking them with you sometimes occurs in parental murder-suicide but I suspect it is far less common outside of close relationships.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I know very little about mental illness. But perhaps there comes a point where one is so focussed on one's own woes that one ceases to consider the consequences of one's actions for others.
Or is there even the possibility that one feels one is doing them a favour by killing them, as clearly they must be experiencing the same degree of misery as oneself? I don't know if that sounds plausible, perhaps others can comment.
Returning to the OP, wasn't there a philosopher (?Camus or Sartre) who suggested that suicide might possibly be construed as the one act which conferred the greatest personal significance upon its perpetrator? If that is so (and I'm not sure I agree with it), then it would make sense for a suicidal person to make sure they went out with the greatest "bang" possible.
quote:And I've been listening to the news from the investigators. Under hypnosis? Really? And how did this hypnosis happen?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think you lack imagination.
The door could have malfunctioned.
The guy could have been under hypnosis
He could have been having a heart attack and accidentally pressed the door button
Etc and so on.
Of course, I don't know and you don't know what is feasible and what is impossible. This is why there are professional accident investigators.
quote:Maybe not 100% predictable, but actually I think it's a fairly regular occurrence. Note that it happened just after they reached cruising altitude - so they are in the 'boring' part of the flight. The perfect time to take a toilet break.
Originally posted by Ariel:
Either way, it struck me as a kind of opportunistic rather than planned action. He would have had to wait for the unplanned moment to arise when his fellow pilot left the cabin - no set time for that, not something you can predict happening.
quote:About 8 minutes.
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:Interesting. Do we know how long the plane took to dive towards the crash?
Originally posted by BroJames:
This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
quote:There is a suggestion that the French prosecutor doing so contravened ICAO annex 13 which as I understand it, means those in charge of the accident investigation should have first dibs on disclosing information gleaned from the flight recorders. (I saw this expressed more forthrightly by the pilot's federation but can't find the same text now).
Originally posted by orfeo:
For that matter, have you got any factual basis for suggesting there's something wrong with the timing of releasing this information? There was actually a considerable period between recovering the black box and releasing information about what was on the black box.
quote:Take the Google definition. Explain to me how this act qualifies.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
10 reasons why white-person mass-murder is never terrorism:
http://www.juancole.com/2012/08/top-ten-differences-between-white-terrorists-and-others.html
quote:It never is, though, is it. Brevik was a closet Muslim (according to some), McVeigh was a lone fruitcake, blahdiblah.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Take the Google definition. Explain to me how this act qualifies.
quote:You can assume that here on the Ship you're talking to rational people who consider Breivik and McVeigh being capable of answering the description of 'terrorist'.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:It never is, though, is it. Brevik was a closet Muslim (according to some), McVeigh was a lone fruitcake, blahdiblah.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Take the Google definition. Explain to me how this act qualifies.
If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
quote:It is much more likely that all airlines will make it standard operating practice (some already do) that if one of the pilots leaves the cockpit, another crew member will go in, so that there are always two people in the cockpit.
Originally posted by The Rogue:
Do you suppose that legislation will be passed to prevent pilots from leaving the cockpit for a loo break? I think the flight was supposed to be a little over two hours.
Or does the tension of take off (and landing) put pressures on any pilot?
quote:If you are a pilot on a low cost carrier, the turnaround time - often around 40 minutes - is so short that it's often considered better to go to the loo just after the takeoff climb, when you don't have entering/exiting passengers/cleaners/takeoff preparation to deal with.
Originally posted by The Rogue:
Do you suppose that legislation will be passed to prevent pilots from leaving the cockpit for a loo break? I think the flight was supposed to be a little over two hours.
Or does the tension of take off (and landing) put pressures on any pilot?
quote:That might be so, but that doesn't mean it would be correct to do so.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
quote:No. Not at all. I hate those "action" movies, detest those video games, and have zero interest in causing mass destruction. Even as a kid when the closest to "action" movies was slapstick comedy I hated watching people get hurt, even in cartoons I winced when Roadrunner or his "enemy" ran off a cliff.
Originally posted by stonespring:
I really like watching my world-ending-explosions, superheroes destroying cities while they battle bad guys ...and pew-pew-pew-bodies-falling-everywhere action movies. And I LOVE hitting the shoot button as fast as I can with a video game controller...
I think that the temptation to cause mass destruction...is something we all have gnawing at us in the back of our minds,
quote:They could always get one of these (female versions are available too), unless the pilot needed to do something more serious.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Middle eastern carriers such as El Al already have a dedicated pilot loo, but this is unlikely to spread because it would mean removing pa$$enger $eating.
quote:Since we have no idea why, since so far as we know this man has made no attempt to leave behind a message telling everyone why he was going to do something so wicked, and since none of the reasons suggested so far would, if found to be true, have made this any more rational or less wicked, is there any point in speculating? Is there any prospect of it giving us anything of benefit?
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
.... As to what goes on in a suicidal mind, I read somewhere that a large percentage of head-on collisions are suicides. From my limited experience with suicidal depression I doubt many of the highway suicidals were looking for opportunity to take others with them. Focus of awareness narrows to self and the pain and the need to escape.
Now I will cheerfully get utterly speculative - if flying is what he always dreamed of doing, and if he saw the doctor's note as a threat to his being able to fly in the future, if he saw himself facing a bleak empty future deprived of all his dreams, that could cause a desire to take one last flight and end it all, never have to walk away from that flight into nothing. But the goal would not be to harm others, in deep suicidal pain others aren't really in awareness (nor are heaven or hell), even if the others are banging on the door or screaming. The pain and need to end it is louder.
But do we know what the doctor's note was about? Maybe he just had a ear infection,it's often unwise to fly with that condition, it can damage the ear drum.
quote:Yes, although you could also add that the population of the UK is generally pretty aware, sadly, of the very real possibility of a terrorist also being the holy trinity of white, Christian and British (although some of them would have rejected the last label obviously).
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:That might be so, but that doesn't mean it would be correct to do so.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
The word 'terrorist' is thrown around to mean any violent act by people we don't like with darker skins than ours, true.
quote:Under UK law at any rate, yes the state of Lubitz's mental health does change the name of the crime. I am surprised that the word manslaughter has not been used at all on this thread so far.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Deliberately flying a plane into a mountain (if that is what happened) is clearly murder, and arguably terrorism. Whatever his mental health was at the time does not change that.
quote:I'd be intrigued to know what makes a litter bin look "foreign" ...
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I still remember asking my mum in about 1986 why none of the railway stations we passed through ever seemed to have litter bins. It wasn't the "foreign-looking" ones we were worried about...
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quote:Press are reporting that what were found in his house, were torn up sick notes. (So had not told employer the doctor felt he was unfit to fly, illness involved has not been specified.)
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:You can assume that here on the Ship you're talking to rational people who consider Breivik and McVeigh being capable of answering the description of 'terrorist'.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:It never is, though, is it. Brevik was a closet Muslim (according to some), McVeigh was a lone fruitcake, blahdiblah.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Take the Google definition. Explain to me how this act qualifies.
If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
None of which makes Lubitz a terrorist. You speculated that what had been found in his house was political. If that speculation had proven correct, you might have been on to something, but I don't understand why you are still persisting in this line of argument given that all the reports are that what was found wasn't political at all, but medical.
quote:Yes, This was at the back of my mind when I wrote my earlier comment about fear of losing his job.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Now I will cheerfully get utterly speculative - if flying is what he always dreamed of doing, and if he saw the doctor's note as a threat to his being able to fly in the future, if he saw himself facing a bleak empty future deprived of all his dreams, that could cause a desire to take one last flight and end it all, never have to walk away from that flight into nothing. But the goal would not be to harm others, in deep suicidal pain others aren't really in awareness (nor are heaven or hell), even if the others are banging on the door or screaming. The pain and need to end it is louder.
quote:During the 30 minutes on the ground the pilot who landed the plane does the walk-around safety check of the plane, which takes about 20 minutes of the time. Then follows preparation for take off. I agree - loo breaks are usually taken in the air.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If you are a pilot on a low cost carrier, the turnaround time - often around 40 minutes - is so short that it's often considered better to go to the loo just after the takeoff climb, when you don't have entering/exiting passengers/cleaners/takeoff preparation to deal with.
quote:Yes. Following BroJames helpful links, I got that far and realised that the lock mechanism would have had to be engaged twice before the plane crashed. Which seems to confirm deliberate action and rule out any kind of accident.
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:Interesting. Do we know how long the plane took to dive towards the crash?
Originally posted by BroJames:
This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
quote:The word "wicked"intrigues me.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:...no attempt to leave behind a message telling everyone why he was going to do something so wicked, and since none of the reasons suggested so far would, if found to be true, have made this any more rational or less wicked....
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
...in deep suicidal pain others aren't really in awareness even if the others are banging on the door or screaming. The pain and need to end it is louder.
quote:Such pain should cause one to seek help - not take others down with you.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
quote:Boogie,
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:Such pain should cause one to seek help - not take others down with you.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
To take others with you is wicked in the extreme. I still can't get over the idea that he didn't seem to give his own family one thought. They will never be able to live normally again.
If he couldn't think of his passengers, surely he could think of his own family?
quote:Every person who commits suicide leaves behind a wake of broken people-- a family who are left with horrible questions and lifelong pain. It's not that the suicidal person doesn't care about those left behind--it's that they are not in a place where they can follow the rational train of thought you are laying out. Suicide (other than, say, a euthanasia-type situation) is not a rational choice-- it's a desperate, anguished, irrational act. To call that "wicked"is to pile on to that anguish. And ultimately, it only makes those who suffer in this way less likely to get the help they need and thus avoid this sort of tragedy in the future.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:Such pain should cause one to seek help - not take others down with you.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
To take others with you is wicked in the extreme. I still can't get over the idea that he didn't seem to give his own family one thought. They will never be able to live normally again.
If he couldn't think of his passengers, surely he could think of his own family?
quote:Was this his choice? I had the impression that they just happened to be above the Alps when they reached cruising altitude. In any case, I think a minor part of the surface area is covered with cities and towns.
Penny S: One thing did strike me about this. He chose to hit an empty mountain, not a town or a city.
quote:I'm sure someone would.
Originally posted by romanlion:
Anyone like to lay odds on whether or not he was pumped full of psychotropic drugs?
quote:Yes, fair point.
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
You can't stop someone from driving on the train tracks, causing a derailment that kills dozens-- or any of a 100 other ways that a suicidal person might take others down along with them. That's part of the fragility of life.
quote:I wouldn't. The clinic he attended seems to have been very careful in its words, stating (as I remember) that he had been there for consultations or investigations, but not that he was under treatment.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:I'm sure someone would.
Originally posted by romanlion:
Anyone like to lay odds on whether or not he was pumped full of psychotropic drugs?
quote:I can't see the evidence that he did something deliberate.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:Such pain should cause one to seek help - not take others down with you.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
To take others with you is wicked in the extreme. I still can't get over the idea that he didn't seem to give his own family one thought. They will never be able to live normally again.
If he couldn't think of his passengers, surely he could think of his own family?
quote:And remembering the basic principle that a person is presumed to intend the natural consequences of their action:-
1) You have to know the thing you intend to do is wrong;
2) You have to intend to do something wrong;
3) You have to have another option.
quote:If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
Originally posted by balaam:
So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
quote:It is perfectly possible for someone with a mental illness to not know that, especially a psychosis. When you are psychotic you do not fully understand the implications of what you are doing or why.
Originally posted by Enoch:
1. It is as good as impossible for a person to argue that they didn't know that flying an aeroplane with a whole lot of passengers into a mountain and killing them is wrong.
quote:I understand, anyway, that the door code would have reset itself after 5 minutes, allowing entry. That means he had had to engage the lock from the cockpit a second time.
Originally posted by Dave W.:
If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
quote:As has been noted already, if the co-pilot was suffering from severe clinical depression or some form of psychotic break, he may not have been able to rationally assess the impact of his actions, putting all three of the criteria in question. Again, to call it "wicked" under those circumstances can only further isolate and marginalize those we most need to help if we are to prevent future tragedies.
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't think it is premature to talk of wickedness. On what is emerging, we are left at the moment with a strong presumption that this was a wicked act. It may be that there is some other explanation, but it's looking very unlikely.
e.g. if one uses Golden Key's test
quote:And remembering the basic principle that a person is presumed to intend the natural consequences of their action:-
1) You have to know the thing you intend to do is wrong;
2) You have to intend to do something wrong;
3) You have to have another option.
1. It is as good as impossible for a person to argue that they didn't know that flying an aeroplane with a whole lot of passengers into a mountain and killing them is wrong.
2. He appears to have intended to do that.
3. He had another option. It was not to have done it. That is to have continued to fly the aeroplane to its destination. That is what he was employed to do and what everyone would have assumed he was going to do.
If we add to that the suggestion, admittedly still conjecture at the moment, that he 'wanted to do something that would ensure everyone remembered him', that makes his motivation even more self-evidently bad.
At the moment, I can't see any other valid interpretation.
quote:In theory sabotage, of software controlling the plan - a gas. Anister hidden in the cockpit triggered by a sensor that indi aged only one person present - of by location on flight route and single personhood as a coincidence.
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
Originally posted by balaam:
So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
quote:We are assuming the code was activated.
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
Originally posted by balaam:
So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
quote:If any or all of that had happened, I doubt that the co-pilot would have spent the next ten minutes in silence (except for his breathing) -- unless the pilot knocked him unconscious before leaving.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Maybe the door security system malfunctioned?
What if the pilot repeatedly punched the wrong codes in the door?
And this is bizarre, I know...but what if the *pilot* had done something before going out the door, and the co-pilot was afraid to let him back in?
quote:That should be evident from the cockpit voice recording; if it was, a buzzer would have sounded. French prosecutors who have heard the recording concluded that the copilot deliberately kept the pilot locked out and reset the autopilot to descend.
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:We are assuming the code was activated.
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
Originally posted by balaam:
So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
quote:Good point about psychosis; there are hints to me of the 'dark triad', but we are guessing really. Information about him may well be useful, if there are suggestions of narcissism and/or psychopathy. The other member of the triad is Machiavellianism.
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
True but someone psychotic enough not to know the nature and quality of the act would be too chaotic and obviously I'll to get onto an aircraft without being stopped.
A delusional belief the act was somehow justified, a sacrifice to save the world or a last ditch attempt to stop the plane being used as a weapon for example, would be the most likely out working.
Though of course most people with psychosis do not pose a risk to others.
The majority of violent crime is committed by people who are well.
quote:You're baiting me, aren't you, my friend?
Originally posted by Martin60:
At what point - if ever - do we blame supernatural evil? Not just the contingent, emergent evil of physically embodied mental existence. Which seems sufficient to explain such aberrant horrors.
quote:Have you missed the fact that deliberate action was required to PREVENT the pilot getting back into the cockpit? There is an access code.
Originally posted by balaam:
"Co-pilot flew plane into mountain," is only one of two possibilities I have seen. The other one, "Co-pilot was unconscious and unable to let the pilot back into the cockpit," is another.
quote:If the guy was truly in the depths os of despair, this might not have been as obvious him as it is to you. I seem to recall reading somewhere about some bloke who said something along the lines of "Judge not, that ye be not judged"...
Originally posted by Enoch:
3. He had another option. It was not to have done it. That is to have continued to fly the aeroplane to its destination. That is what he was employed to do and what everyone would have assumed he was going to do.
quote:How exactly is it that you can accept all the evidence that comes from the prosecutors, but not their conclusions about the evidence?
Originally posted by balaam:
I'm waiting for the investigators or an inquest to say the crashing was deliberate and not just th prosecutors.
quote:When you say "those of you who invoke all things Satanic" are you talking about me, or just people outside of this thread? I don't think anyone else has invoked Satan on this thread (and haven't seen anyone mention hell at all).
Originally posted by Figbash:
Next: in response to the ludicrous ideas about Hell and Satan that I see appearing far too often, I think those of you who invoke all things Satanic are missing a very important point. When you're deeply depressed, you're already in Hell.
quote:Before Satan corrupted creation there were no humans. But yes, I believe that were we living in God's original/intended created universe, there would be no psychotic breaks. And one day we will live in the New Creation, and there will be no psychotic breaks. But in the world we now live in, life is frail, and this is one of the hazards. So we need to learn how to love one another in the world in which we find ourselves.
Originally posted by Martin60:
You're reading my mind cliffdweller. You tell me.
So until Satan corrupted creation, there could be no psychotic breaks?
quote:One of the quirks of suicidal depression - you can't talk about it. Friends and family freak out and refuse to discuss what you are going through, professionals have a legal duty to report you to the authorities so they can lock you up to take away the option. The most important decision in life and you can't talk it over with anyone, that's so isolating, that isolation prevents the kinds of discussions that could lead to seeing other "ways out" of the overwhelming pain.
Originally posted by cliffdweller:creation was corrupted by Satan, leading to the suffering and brokenness we experience in the world today. Part of that suffering and brokenness is indeed mental illness and the consequences of that.
quote:Did I say that? Are the investigators and the prosecutors the same thing?
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:How exactly is it that you can accept all the evidence that comes from the prosecutors, but not their conclusions about the evidence?
Originally posted by balaam:
I'm waiting for the investigators or an inquest to say the crashing was deliberate and not just the prosecutors.
quote:Does it matter? We can't jail his corpse.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Whether that means he was "culpable" in a legal sense or not, I am not qualified to say.
quote:This is a good point. It can easily force people into isolation, which may make it all more intense. There is also often a good deal of shame linked to depression, and with some people, anger or rage. It can be a deadly cocktail, probably made worse by crass media coverage.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:One of the quirks of suicidal depression - you can't talk about it. Friends and family freak out and refuse to discuss what you are going through, professionals have a legal duty to report you to the authorities so they can lock you up to take away the option. The most important decision in life and you can't talk it over with anyone, that's so isolating, that isolation prevents the kinds of discussions that could lead to seeing other "ways out" of the overwhelming pain.
Originally posted by cliffdweller:creation was corrupted by Satan, leading to the suffering and brokenness we experience in the world today. Part of that suffering and brokenness is indeed mental illness and the consequences of that.
quote:Which was simply stupid, as he won't fly again anyway now.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
He probably knew that if he told his employers about is mental issues, he wouldn't fly again, and he wanted to fly.
quote:That's what the Samaritans are there for. The caller is anonymous and the Samaritan policy is to keep it that way. Moreover, after the volunteers have been answering the phones for awhile, they are shockproof.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
One of the quirks of suicidal depression - you can't talk about it. Friends and family freak out and refuse to discuss what you are going through, professionals have a legal duty to report you to the authorities so they can lock you up to take away the option. The most important decision in life and you can't talk it over with anyone, that's so isolating, that isolation prevents the kinds of discussions that could lead to seeing other "ways out" of the overwhelming pain.
quote:Yes but now he does not have to live with the pain and shame of not flying.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:Which was simply stupid, as he won't fly again anyway now.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
He probably knew that if he told his employers about is mental issues, he wouldn't fly again, and he wanted to fly.
quote:Again, all of this is acting as if suicide were a rational act rather than a desperate one.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:Yes but now he does not have to live with the pain and shame of not flying.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:Which was simply stupid, as he won't fly again anyway now.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
He probably knew that if he told his employers about is mental issues, he wouldn't fly again, and he wanted to fly.
quote:That is a very interesting point, I hadn't heard about neurologists, and a neurological issue might also cause changes in personality and perception.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
This is admittedly wild speculation, but inspired by various news stories.
Evidently, some of his health info has been withheld, due to privacy. In fact, there's talk in Germany of giving pilots less medical privacy.
But given that he reportedly had some sort of eye problem, and saw both eye docs and neurologists (and several, according to something I read); and that he reportedly had depression...I wonder if he might have had a problem in his brain that affected his eyes. Tumor? Aneurysm?
quote:cliffdweller,
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:When you say "those of you who invoke all things Satanic" are you talking about me, or just people outside of this thread? I don't think anyone else has invoked Satan on this thread (and haven't seen anyone mention hell at all).
Originally posted by Figbash:
Next: in response to the ludicrous ideas about Hell and Satan that I see appearing far too often, I think those of you who invoke all things Satanic are missing a very important point. When you're deeply depressed, you're already in Hell.
quote:
What is really puzzling about those who take other people with them at the same time as they kill themselves, is that one would have thought that it was obvious that that is the way to make sure that you are casting yourself into the worst, hottest and nastiest place to spend eternity.
To do this, a person would have to be very, very confident that death is indeed the end and that not just Christianity but every other religion is completely wrong.
Nobody ever openly says this. But it is the elephant in the room that everyone knows is there.
quote:So, what can we say to a suicidal person? I'm sorry, if the co-pilot really killed 149 people, then I find that a bad thing. I'm also thinking about the anguish of the family members of those 149 people here.
cliffdweller: Suicide (other than, say, a euthanasia-type situation) is not a rational choice-- it's a desperate, anguished, irrational act. To call that "wicked"is to pile on to that anguish.
quote:I didn't mention anything about Satan, and I'm not suggesting any such thing.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
FWIW I believe Figbash was referring to this post by Enoch on the first page rather than to your post:
quote:There may be some other explanation of what happened but I go with what Orfeo said about Occam's Razor applying here.
one would have thought that it was obvious that that is the way to make sure that you are casting yourself into the worst, hottest and nastiest place to spend eternity.
quote:Again, we simply don't know enough about his mental capacity at the time to know if he was able to think in the rational terms you are assuming.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:So, what can we say to a suicidal person? I'm sorry, if the co-pilot really killed 149 people, then I find that a bad thing. I'm also thinking about the anguish of the family members of those 149 people here.
cliffdweller: Suicide (other than, say, a euthanasia-type situation) is not a rational choice-- it's a desperate, anguished, irrational act. To call that "wicked"is to pile on to that anguish.
To me, being depressed may take some of the responsibility for your actions away from you, but not all. If he really killed those 149 people, then he's a bad motherfucker.
quote:What about the Lubitz family? Are they guilty by association and thus not deserving of your sympathy? By all accounts they too are suffering anguish as well
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm also thinking about the anguish of the family members of those 149 people here.
quote:I didn't assume that he thought in rational terms.
cliffdweller: Again, we simply don't know enough about his mental capacity at the time to know if he was able to think in the rational terms you are assuming.
quote:I admire your ability to look inside my head and discover why I want to give a moral judgement of his actions. You're completely wrong.
cliffdweller: Again, it's natural after a horrible disaster to try to figure out "why" and to assess blame-- it's part of the way we reassure ourselves that if we just do X, Y, or Z to keep those evil ,other****ers out of the cockpit, it will never happen again.
quote:Who said they didn't have my sympathy?
JoannaP: What about the Lubitz family? Are they guilty by association and thus not deserving of your sympathy? By all accounts they too are suffering anguish as well
quote:I apologize for misreading your quotes, but have to then say if that's the case, I'm completely mystified about what you ARE saying and what is the partial responsibility you continue to assign to the co-pilot, regardless of what we learn about his mental capacity to make moral judgments? Are you arguing some sort of deontological ethics-- that some acts are just morally wrong, regardless of the motives or capacity of the actor? or is it the reverse- an extreme version of consequentialism- that the only relevant data is the consequences of motives or intent?
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:I didn't assume that he thought in rational terms.
cliffdweller: Again, we simply don't know enough about his mental capacity at the time to know if he was able to think in the rational terms you are assuming.
quote:I admire your ability to look inside my head and discover why I want to give a moral judgement of his actions. You're completely wrong.
cliffdweller: Again, it's natural after a horrible disaster to try to figure out "why" and to assess blame-- it's part of the way we reassure ourselves that if we just do X, Y, or Z to keep those evil ,other****ers out of the cockpit, it will never happen again.
I'm not looking for a false sense of security here. I'm completely aware that we can never completely prevent it. I'm also strongly opposed to a witch hunt against pilots who had a history of depression. And I say this as someone who flies very often.
The reason that I want to give a moral judgement is because killing 149 people is a moral action. Like I said, his depression may take part of his responsibility off him, but not all of it. In fact, I feel that denying the moral aspect of his actions takes away the humanity off him.
quote:I'm saying that even if someone is completely depressed and suicidal, their capacity for making moral judgments may be small — perhaps even infinitesimally small — but not zero.
cliffdweller: I'm completely mystified about what you ARE saying and what is the partial responsibility you continue to assign to the co-pilot, regardless of what we learn about his mental capacity to make moral judgments?
quote:I didn't mean you. I have heard plenty of theories now, e.g. psychosis, psychopathy, narcissism, but they are pure guesswork. And saying it was his depression is guesswork. It's quite possible that we'll never find out his state of mind.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think I'm filling in gaps here, I guess I'm doing some sort of "What if?" excercise.
quote:A preacher once pointed out that none of those resurrected in the Bible (by Jesus or others) are reported to have expressed gratitude. Argument from silence is far from proof; but if we go to "a far far better place," or are embraced by absolute love (as many a Near Death Experiencer reports) the passengers are not suffering. It's family and friends still here who suffer.
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Whatever the explanation, he'll be having to do some explaining to the other 149 people he took with him. Let's hope (and pray) they forgive him.
quote:How is that an "elephant in the room", and for whom? I was confused when you said that first, but since you repeat it now I would like to hear what you mean by that. I don't think that Lubitz going to hell is an obvious truth that is either being ignored or going unaddressed, or an obvious problem or risk no one wants to discuss (Wikipedia). If this great evil can be attributed to Lubitz, i.e., if he was sufficiently culpable, then by human reckoning and traditional Christian conceptions of the afterlife he is now burning in hell. Whether human and Divine reckoning coincide we cannot know. But so what? There's nothing special about these statements. Traditional Christians will say similar things about all kinds of evil and evildoers, non-traditional Christians and nonbelievers will ignore them concerning many other evil matters. I don't see how the Lubitz case is special in this regard?
Originally posted by Enoch:
What I am saying though, is that killing yourself AND insisting on taking a collection of casual bystanders with you is prima facie an act of unconscionable wickedness. As I said, the elephant in the room is that
quote:
one would have thought that it was obvious that that is the way to make sure that you are casting yourself into the worst, hottest and nastiest place to spend eternity.
quote:People are not mathematical equations. Below some threshold, cognition becomes noise. It is possible to be so out of one's mind as to be completely oblivious to and/or unconcerned with the death of others, and then one is not morally culpable - just very sick. However, I can make the following sense of your statement:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm saying that even if someone is completely depressed and suicidal, their capacity for making moral judgments may be small — perhaps even infinitesimally small — but not zero.
quote:Hmmm. One is very possibly the act of an irrational individual, unconcerned with his own life, while the other is a cold, rational calculation by those who will not suffer in the least.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Ship of Fools: where murdering 150 people by flying a plane into a mountain is understandable and to be treated with sympathy, but making someone whose house you're paying for move a hundred miles up the road is the most evil thing in the entire fucking world.
quote:But none of them are reported to have complained.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A preacher once pointed out that none of those resurrected in the Bible (by Jesus or others) are reported to have expressed gratitude..
quote:Of course they aren't. I'm simplifying things for the sake of discussing them on a bulletin board.
IngoB: People are not mathematical equations.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Ship of Fools: where murdering 150 people by flying a plane into a mountain is understandable and to be treated with sympathy, but making someone whose house you're paying for move a hundred miles up the road is the most evil thing in the entire fucking world.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:I think this is fair. I have depression and have had a few severe episodes. While it isn't helpful to see myself as wholly and entirely responsible for the progression of any episode, neither is it helpful to create a narrative where there are no choices I can make that can affect the outcome.
Originally posted by IngoB:
If one is losing a struggle against one's own mind, then a responsibility accrues to seek medical advice and try the best one can to be under helpful supervision. Even if Lubitz was crazed beyond accountability when he downed the plane, this does not mean that he was inculpable in terms of the time before it came to that.
quote:So having a personality disorder makes it more acceptable to kill people. Sorry. No.
Originally posted by Teilhard:
... In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
quote:Yes, I've been asking around the therapy grapevine, and quite a few are saying that. I think a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually, especially the tabloids, with their hitherto unknown aptitude for psychological diagnostics! In other words, it's guesswork.
Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
quote:," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ... [/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Teilhard:
... In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
quote:A person who is seriously mentally ill may or may not also have an underlying serious personality disorder ...
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:Yes, I've been asking around the therapy grapevine, and quite a few are saying that. I think a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually, especially the tabloids, with their hitherto unknown aptitude for psychological diagnostics! In other words, it's guesswork.
Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
quote:I'm seeing jumping not from depression to violence, but from a class of antidepressant drugs to violence. here's an old article saying "some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior."
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually,...
Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
quote:"More acceptable" -- no ...
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:So having a personality disorder makes it more acceptable to kill people. Sorry. No.
Originally posted by Teilhard:
... In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
quote:That's interesting. I just meant that no professional that I'm aware of, has established a link between depression and this murder-suicide. The tabloid press are running with it, mainly to sell newspapers, I suppose.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:I'm seeing jumping not from depression to violence, but from a class of antidepressant drugs to violence. here's an old article saying "some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior."
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually,...
Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
The link between SSRIs and homicidal violence comes up with each school shooting - not depression and violence, but SSRI drugs and violence. Maybe we need a better way to help with depression.
quote:We know that those left behind when someone dies are unhappy and feel their loved one's life was cut short, although it happens to many at any age including before birth. The grief of loss from this side is real.
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Belle Ringer: I hope none of the 149 passengers and crew are suffering;I would like to think that Lubitz is not suffering, though he may, now, be remorseful. But he will certainly be accountable for his actions, and I suspect he may well have to explain himself to those whose earthly lives he cut short (particularly the schoolchildren). Or do you think they should be grateful to him, for removing them from this vale of tears, and their families and friends?
quote:it's all speculative. If you can speculate resentment, I can speculate so overwhelmed with wonder that they don't even think to resent.
certainly be accountable for his actions, and I suspect he may well have to explain himself to those whose earthly lives he cut short
quote:The *link* is being discussed because it appears to be the most likely explanation ... i.e., anyone who would do what the co-pilot apparently did must have been *crazy* ...
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:That's interesting. I just meant that no professional that I'm aware of, has established a link between depression and this murder-suicide. The tabloid press are running with it, mainly to sell newspapers, I suppose.
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:I'm seeing jumping not from depression to violence, but from a class of antidepressant drugs to violence. here's an old article saying "some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior."
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually,...
Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
The link between SSRIs and homicidal violence comes up with each school shooting - not depression and violence, but SSRI drugs and violence. Maybe we need a better way to help with depression.
quote:Yes ... But in the individual now undergoing this public psychological autopsy, there appears -- appears -- to have been a deadly combination of severe major personality disorder with anxiety and depression ... hence the discussion ...
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
quote:As you say, you are guessing that it was murder-suicide. My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence. Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line. When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
quote:Very good point. It's not necessarily an aggressive act.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:As you say, you are guessing that it was murder-suicide. My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence. Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line. When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
quote:Some depressive states are psychotic and this often combines with suicide attempts, ime, though I've no idea if murder-suicide is also a feature as it is relatively rare. But, as speculated, we may never know the truth of this terrible situation.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
quote:It certainly gets to be a subset of the story, "If Everybody Took Their Prescribed Meds, Life Would Be All Roses And Cherries" ...
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
@quetzalcoatl
That assumes the diagnostics are any good at all, and also can't deal with the very low base rates, i.e., some proportion of people who perpetrate a very low probability event like murder-suicide have some particular diagnosis. This says nothing whatever about anyone with such a diagnosis.
The risk factors which better explain such incidents are demographic, notwithstanding that we have no real ability to predict specific behaviour: male, young, relationship difficulties or isolation, defective impulsive control, not optimistic about the future, some history of violence - either doing, receiving or both.
Substance abuse, thought disorder, depression, anxiety, and various other elements of diagnosis possibly may help. But having been both stoned and drunk myself, and never having been violent, the causation is not clear**. As for mood disorders and thought disorders, there is an association, but this says nil about cause. Just about everything about human characteristics correlates positively with everything else.
**Some of us think more substance abuse might help some people, particularly politicians, to be less violent, but that's riffing Timothy Leary. Perhaps yoga or tai chi would be better choices and more fitting with current fashions.
edit:
@Teilhard
This starts to read as a "just so" story doesn't it.
quote:One of the standard features of an interview with a patient or client who may be suicidal is to ask the question, "Who do you think would find you ... ??? What would that person feel ... ???"
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:As you say, you are guessing that it was murder-suicide. My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence. Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line. When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
quote:Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
Originally posted by JoannaP:
My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence.
quote:Suicide is often a permanent solution to a severe distress that is temporary ... Almost always, the terrible situation will improve in the future ...
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re suicide and suicidal depression being selfish:
It's like having a terrible headache that isn't responding to any remedy, and wanting to do *anything* to get rid of it. You're turned in on yourself and not thinking clearly (if at all) because that's all you can do.
NOT that suicide is a good or wise method of pain relief--just that some people use it.
quote:Pre-meditation. If it turns out the co-pilot had planned his actions and it wasn't just an impulse, then you're right - there's not much difference between him and a bomber. It'd also be comparable to one of the U.S. school shootings.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
quote:It would depend on the intention. I can understand crashing a plane being the obvious way for a pilot to kill himself. I am not sure that there are people for whom the easiest, most convenient means of death is strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded place (unless they are pretending to be terrorists while really just looking for a way to die - but that seems a tad unlikely).
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
Originally posted by JoannaP:
My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence.
If not, why not? What's the difference?
quote:Is there any evidence that he was not taking his meds? It could be that he was and they were not very effective for him.
Originally posted by Teilhard:
It certainly gets to be a subset of the story, "If Everybody Took Their Prescribed Meds, Life Would Be All Roses And Cherries" ...
quote:Yes, it's possible that he intensely wanted to die, and wasn't interested in the others, but also possible that he did want to kill them also. Will we ever know? I guess they are hoping to find a diary a la Breivik.
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:Pre-meditation. If it turns out the co-pilot had planned his actions and it wasn't just an impulse, then you're right - there's not much difference between him and a bomber. It'd also be comparable to one of the U.S. school shootings.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
quote:It does make a difference to the 149 people who died. I'm not buying that it didn't make a difference to the co-pilot either. I don't think that suicide is often a sudden impulse: there's a whole build-up to it. He could have killed himself in a million other ways, but he chose to do it taking 149 people with him. He must have done this for a reason, even if it's a madman's reason. In fact, he has said things before (to his ex-girlfriend?) that hinted at this.
JoannaP: Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line.
quote:People sometimes do unpredictable things. They may even surprise themselves. -- I don't think there's much more. Unless you want things as credible as 'the devil made them do it'.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
meaning, for God's sake, give me some meaning, I'm starved of it, even if it's invented.
quote:An ideology.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
quote:Could be. I hear more about people who are very depressed and then start to feel better, gain energy and the wherewithal to formulate a plan and carry it off. Thus the initial feeling better isn't really feeling better, it's more in the behavioural and cognitive realms. With the emotional aspects taking longer.
Originally posted by Moo:
I heard, long before this happened, that if people
who have been on anti-depressants stop taking them abruptly, they may commit acts of violence.
Moo
quote:If you are in a rational, or semi-rational, state where death appears to be the only viable option, then it's absolutely meaningful to consider the other people. (And I don't think this requires empathy. You can consider that killing people is wrong as an intellectual statement without needing to emote over it.)
Originally posted by JoannaP:
When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.
quote:When I worked in psychiatry as a student nurse we were told that often depressives lack the motivation when they are in a very dark place, it was when they start to recover that they make the decision to commit suicide. I remember a lovely kind man recovering from depression who absented himself and went and stood in front of a train.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Could be. I hear more about people who are very depressed and then start to feel better, gain energy and the wherewithal to formulate a plan and carry it off. Thus the initial feeling better isn't really feeling better, it's more in the behavioural and cognitive realms. With the emotional aspects taking longer.
quote:That's quite common in therapy, not suicide fortunately, but when people start to feel a bit better, they may suddenly sabotage it. If you are prepared for the possibility, you can point it out to the client, which may or may not work. I think some people are reluctant to give up their misery. But we can't really apply this to Lubitz.
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
quote:When I worked in psychiatry as a student nurse we were told that often depressives lack the motivation when they are in a very dark place, it was when they start to recover that they make the decision to commit suicide. I remember a lovely kind man recovering from depression who absented himself and went and stood in front of a train.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Could be. I hear more about people who are very depressed and then start to feel better, gain energy and the wherewithal to formulate a plan and carry it off. Thus the initial feeling better isn't really feeling better, it's more in the behavioural and cognitive realms. With the emotional aspects taking longer.
I'm certainly not judging those with mental illness. I have bipolar disorder and have experienced psychosis in the past, though my own presentation means I would be have been more likely to kill myself by accident whilst manic than by suicide when depressed (I have never experienced suicidal depression, I tend towards mania). Same result in the end though. Thankfully, I am very well controlled and have been for well over a decade.
quote:Are you talking about people on the ship? If so, I have not noticed anyone saying that all the mentally ill are dangerous. I have also not encountered it in the media.
Originally posted by bib:
I am very concerned that so many people are now labelling anyone with a mental illness as a danger to others and more than likely to commit suicide.
quote:Helping a suicidal client/patient can be *tricky* ...
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Couple of things:
--Re suicide being a permanent fix to a temporary problem: When comedienne Joan Rivers' husband Edgar killed himself, their daughter said he'd told *her* that, and she said "why couldn't he remember that?"
--Re Teilhard's scenario of trying to get the person to hang on a little longer, you can kill yourself later if you need to, and I'll try to help you get through this: speaking as someone who spent (past tense) a lot of time in suicidal depression, you need to make absolutely sure that you don't fake any of that. There mustn't be the least whiff of "it's not that bad" or "when you feel better, you'll see it's not that bad". You'll lose credibility--as you should. Sometimes, it really IS that bad in reality. And it's always that bad in the person's head--which is where they live.
--Re meds: IANAD, but wrong meds and wrong dosage can make you worse; and going off meds can make your worse. Plus, IME, non-psych meds can have a psych effect. It's all very complicated. Each person's biochemistry is different. Some of us are prone to rare reactions, like the small print on a prescription package insert.
quote:Well that's the thing, isn't it. I fail to see how convincing the pilot to leave the cockpit, locking the door and putting the plane into a fatal descent while ignoring the banging at the door and screams of the other people on the plane who didn't want to die counts as anything other than a deliberate, conscious and premeditated act. Whatever his personal motivations were, he must have been able to hear those screams, to know that there were 150 people behind him who didn't want to die, and to decide to kill them anyway.
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:Pre-meditation. If it turns out the co-pilot had planned his actions and it wasn't just an impulse, then you're right - there's not much difference between him and a bomber. It'd also be comparable to one of the U.S. school shootings.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
quote:They are, IMO, like mass shootings. Though shocking, they are rare and statistically insignificant, but indicative of a greater problem.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was thinking that events like this are so rare and unpredictable,
quote:I think there was a suggestion of screening students for possible assailants in the US, but there are very few parameters, maybe young men who feel alienated, which probably amounts to several million.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:They are, IMO, like mass shootings. Though shocking, they are rare and statistically insignificant, but indicative of a greater problem.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was thinking that events like this are so rare and unpredictable,
Though unpredictable? Not sure I agree. It would appear that psychiatrists had a pretty good indication that suitability to fly was questionable, but were not in the legal position to relay the information.
quote:
Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.
quote:The analogy might be better if the plane had been filled with the pilot's enemies, who had captured him and imprisoned him within it.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:Like Samson?
Originally posted by stonespring:
if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass"
quote:Yes, that sounds OK. Some people seem to be saying that anyone who has been depressed, should not fly planes. I find that puzzling, as at the moment there is no evidence that depression caused his actions; and secondly, I don't think there are any predictions between depression and mass murder, (if that's what it is).
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not predictable in the he will do that sense, but ISTM fairly much in the he is capable of sense.
There are many calls of don't stigmatise and I agree. This does not mean there should be not be a better attempt at assessment. Some people should not be in position to affect so many lives. Lubitz was definitely one. That is not a question. The question is whether this could have been avoided and, from what I have read thus far, it appears the system failed.
There can be no complete failsafe system, but this does not mean we cannot do better.
To make my position clear, it echoes that of Mind
quote:
Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.
quote:As an analogy, it would only work if that had been the case. Otherwise, it's completely irrelevant and false.
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:The analogy might be better if the plane had been filled with the pilot's enemies, who had captured him and imprisoned him within it.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:Like Samson?
Originally posted by stonespring:
if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass"
quote:The Atlantic has gathered together some pilots' letters on the disaster. One point made (letter 2) is that the medical assessment is "virtually entirely adversarial", designed to give a binary answer to whether the person is fit to fly. They argue that this gives pilots who have problems an incentive to not seek help, and that a much better system would be aimed at managing health issues "to allow pilots to fly safely with as many medical issues as possible."
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not predictable in the he will do that sense, but ISTM fairly much in the he is capable of sense.
There are many calls of don't stigmatise and I agree. This does not mean there should be not be a better attempt at assessment. Some people should not be in position to affect so many lives. Lubitz was definitely one. That is not a question. The question is whether this could have been avoided and, from what I have read thus far, it appears the system failed.
There can be no complete failsafe system, but this does not mean we cannot do better.
To make my position clear, it echoes that of Mind
quote:
Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.
quote:Does that make a difference to what? In some jurisdictions, mental illness could lead to a claim of diminished responsibility, but it's striking that, for example, Breivik was declared sane. If you mean morally, people have different views on that, don't they? To me, Breivik looked as mad as a hatter, but you could still label that evil. Many people saw the Yorkshire Ripper as evil, although he was supposedly a paranoid schizophrenic, and ended up in Broadmoor.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
How exactly is a person who crashes a plane full of people* causing inevitable death and carnage more of a victim and less of a monster than the mass murderer who picks up victims on the street? Is there something about the moment of the decision vs the repeated moments of the serial killer? What if the serial killer was somehow mentally ill at the time, does that make a difference?
*assuming the usual disclaimer that we don't know all of the facts in this case yet. The moral point is still relevant.
quote:Dutch newspapers pointed to the short turnaround times for low budget airliners as an additional stress factor for pilots.
rufiki:The Atlantic has gathered together some pilots' letters on the disaster. One point made (letter 2) is that the medical assessment is "virtually entirely adversarial", designed to give a binary answer to whether the person is fit to fly. They argue that this gives pilots who have problems an incentive to not seek help, and that a much better system would be aimed at managing health issues "to allow pilots to fly safely with as many medical issues as possible."
Others argue that 630 hours is simply insufficient experience.
quote:How is one supposed to get to a high number of flying hours if not via a sequence of lower numbers?
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yeah, I wondered about the co-pilot's low number of flying hours. (I presume that's in commercial craft.) The pilot had something like ten times as much flight time.
quote:Also, they seem to be suggesting that the whole thing about the co-pilot's respiration being audible on the black-box is unlikely:
scant media coverage has been given to the eyewitnesses who heard an explosion and saw smoke coming out of the plane shortly before it crashed. A helicopter pilot in the French Air Force based in Orange, 30 minutes away from the site of the crash, said that the French Air Force had received a number of corroborating witness testimonies on this point. He also confirmed that debris was found upstream from the crash site - which he said confirmed the fact that the piece of fuselage had "been detached from the aircraft before impact".
quote:Whatever the truth of it, Lubitz's family and friends must be beside themselves, I hope they are getting the support they need.
One of the major pieces of data used to justify the "suicide pilot" story comes from the alleged CVR recording where, we are told, Lubitz's 'breath' can be heard. This claim has been directly contested by Gerard Arnoux, an 18-year Air France captain and spokesperson for the national monitoring committee on aviation safety, who appeared on 'Le Grande Journal' two days after the crash. Arnoux stated that there were three errors in the official story:
1) It is not possible to hear a pilot's breath on the CVR. Arnoux states that the cockpit of 1st generation A320s are very noisy, so much so that, in flight, pilots had to use headsets to speak to each other. The idea that the CVR could pick up Lubitz's breath with so much ambient noise is not possible, according to Arnoux.
2) The official story claims that investigators heard the 'beep' of the knob that Lubitz used to start the plane on its descent. Arnoux states categorically that this knob makes no sound.
3) Arnoux also wonders why no mention was made by investigators of hearing the loud strident beeping made by the cockpit door console when the emergency access code is entered to open the cockpit door. Arnoux recognizes that the emergency unlock code could have been overridden by someone in the cockpit manually holding the lock button down, but this would not have prevented the beeping once the code was entered outside. This would have been the clearest confirmation that one of the pilots had been locked out. Yet no mention was made of it. Instead, we are asked to accept the word of those privy to the CVR that someone was "banging on the door" and shouting "open the damn door". And with all that ambient noise in the cockpit too. They must have very good hearing.
quote:Are you proposing sott.net as a reputable source?? It seems to be operating in the David Icke spectrum to me in all honesty...
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I stumbled across this article, suggesting that what has been presented as fact in this case is not the full story. .
It seems to suggest there were eyewitnesses whose accounts disagree with the now accepted narrative:
quote:Also, they seem to be suggesting that the whole thing about the co-pilot's respiration being audible on the black-box is unlikely:
scant media coverage has been given to the eyewitnesses who heard an explosion and saw smoke coming out of the plane shortly before it crashed. A helicopter pilot in the French Air Force based in Orange, 30 minutes away from the site of the crash, said that the French Air Force had received a number of corroborating witness testimonies on this point. He also confirmed that debris was found upstream from the crash site - which he said confirmed the fact that the piece of fuselage had "been detached from the aircraft before impact".
quote:Whatever the truth of it, Lubitz's family and friends must be beside themselves, I hope they are getting the support they need.
One of the major pieces of data used to justify the "suicide pilot" story comes from the alleged CVR recording where, we are told, Lubitz's 'breath' can be heard. This claim has been directly contested by Gerard Arnoux, an 18-year Air France captain and spokesperson for the national monitoring committee on aviation safety, who appeared on 'Le Grande Journal' two days after the crash. Arnoux stated that there were three errors in the official story:
1) It is not possible to hear a pilot's breath on the CVR. Arnoux states that the cockpit of 1st generation A320s are very noisy, so much so that, in flight, pilots had to use headsets to speak to each other. The idea that the CVR could pick up Lubitz's breath with so much ambient noise is not possible, according to Arnoux.
2) The official story claims that investigators heard the 'beep' of the knob that Lubitz used to start the plane on its descent. Arnoux states categorically that this knob makes no sound.
3) Arnoux also wonders why no mention was made by investigators of hearing the loud strident beeping made by the cockpit door console when the emergency access code is entered to open the cockpit door. Arnoux recognizes that the emergency unlock code could have been overridden by someone in the cockpit manually holding the lock button down, but this would not have prevented the beeping once the code was entered outside. This would have been the clearest confirmation that one of the pilots had been locked out. Yet no mention was made of it. Instead, we are asked to accept the word of those privy to the CVR that someone was "banging on the door" and shouting "open the damn door". And with all that ambient noise in the cockpit too. They must have very good hearing.
quote:Check out the Quantum Future Group. which seems to sponsor Signs of the Times (sott website).
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
It's not a site I've ever been aware of before, it's a link from a link from a link found in idle wandering - perhaps I should have added a caveat about not being sure of the provenance. The article doesn't seem beyond plausible though - and it is, if nothing else, a reminder that the investigation has not reported its findings, yet the media has been reporting as though it has.
quote:I haven't seen a single first-hand "eyewitness report".
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Supposedly, there are eyewitness reports of things going wrong before the crash--e.g., smoke and explosion--and the fuselage reportedly fell separately. Which doesn't fit the "crazy co-pilot with a death wish" scenario.
I don't know if any of it is true; but it doesn't seem wildly untrue, and AFAICS doesn't draw from QFG ideology.
quote:You may call it a kangaroo if you wish, but we've seen the walk and heard the quack.
Dusseldorf, Germany (CNN)Analysis of a tablet device belonging to Germanwings Flight 9525 co-pilot Andreas Lubitz shows he researched methods of suicide on the Internet in the days leading up to the crash, the public prosecutor's office in Dusseldorf, Germany, said Thursday.
Prosecutor Christoph Kumpa said that on one day, Lubitz also "searched for several minutes with search terms relating to cockpit doors and their security measures."
quote:According to the BBC, it shows that he not only deliberately sent the plane down, but sped it up on the way.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The Flight Data Recorder has apparently just been found, and if it's at all usable I'm sure that will reveal more, in due time.
quote:That at least saved the 149 people a few seconds or minutes of horror.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:According to the BBC, it shows that he not only deliberately sent the plane down, but sped it up on the way.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The Flight Data Recorder has apparently just been found, and if it's at all usable I'm sure that will reveal more, in due time.
quote:I suppose we could scratch some level of *mercy* from the episode … None of those passengers will ever again undergo the agony of a visit to the dentist, nor ever again pay a penny in taxes ...
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:That at least saved the 149 people a few seconds or minutes of horror.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:According to the BBC, it shows that he not only deliberately sent the plane down, but sped it up on the way.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The Flight Data Recorder has apparently just been found, and if it's at all usable I'm sure that will reveal more, in due time.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
