Ship of Fools: What is appropriate language on this website.

Thread: What is appropriate language on this website. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Frankenstein (# 16198) on :

I was given this response by someone who had objected to what I had contributed:

Just to be clear: that's a fucking bullshit answer. On the thread in Purgatory, various people have expressed that the word 'relevant' can mean many things in the context of the question you raised. You opened a thread asking a question, people engage with your question and all you do is make long quotes and answer with "it's as per any competent dictionary".

This is disrespectful towards people who accepted your invitation to have a discussion with you. We know very well what the dictionary says thankyouverymuch; pointing us towards it in this way comes over as very patronising. We also know that words can take on different meanings when applied to different situations. You are obviously too dumb to get that.

If you don't think that discussing the meaning of 'relevance' in a situation of declining numbers of church attendance is worth your while, then you're not fit to open a topic that contains the word relevance. Get the fuck out of here, arsehole.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

The appropriate language is English.

If the board is Hell, then that may or may not include some Anglo-Saxon. May I draw your attention to the board's rubric, which state:

quote:
our normal rules on civility are abandoned on this board.

You're posting in Hell. If you require further guidance, I suggest purchasing a Clue-Bat™ from your usual vendor.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

It is also appropriate to use UBB coding, in particular to identify your words from the words of others you are quoting. Otherwise one might conclude that a) you're talking to yourself, and b) calling yourself "too dumb" and "arsehole"

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I think 'fuck', 'bullshit', 'dumb' and 'arsehole' are perfectly fine Anglo-Saxon words. At least they are Germanic in origin. I'd need to talk with a couple of Frisian friends.

Posted by Frankenstein (# 16198) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I think 'fuck', 'bullshit', 'dumb' and 'arsehole' are perfectly fine Anglo-Saxon words. At least they are Germanic in origin. I'd need to talk with a couple of Frisian friends.

Perhaps you should sign yourself as Arsehole.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Frankenstein: Perhaps you should sign yourself as Arsehole.

Ooh! How did that make you feel?

Posted by Frankenstein (# 16198) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
I was given this response by someone who had objected to what I had contributed:

Just to be clear: that's a fucking bullshit answer. On the thread in Purgatory, various people have expressed that the word 'relevant' can mean many things in the context of the question you raised. You opened a thread asking a question, people engage with your question and all you do is make long quotes and answer with "it's as per any competent dictionary".

This is disrespectful towards people who accepted your invitation to have a discussion with you. We know very well what the dictionary says thankyouverymuch; pointing us towards it in this way comes over as very patronising. We also know that words can take on different meanings when applied to different situations. You are obviously too dumb to get that.

If you don't think that discussing the meaning of 'relevance' in a situation of declining numbers of church attendance is worth your while, then you're not fit to open a topic that contains the word relevance. Get the fuck out of here, arsehole.

I am told that I am disrespectful.
Then I am told:
"Get the fuck out of here, arsehole"

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Frankenstein: I am told that I am disrespectful.
Then I am told:
"Get the fuck out of here, arsehole"

I'm glad that this got through to you.

Sit back a bit, because this is going to be difficult for you.

I told you that you were being disrespectful in your posts on the Purgatory board of Ship of Fools. That is our space for serious debate, where some form of respect for other posters is required.

I reacted by being disrespectful on the Hell board of Ship of Fools, where being so is completely acceptable; expected even. I can assure you that any disrespect you may perceive as coming from me here is entirely intentional.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Oddly, there doesn't seem to be a traceable etymology for 'fuck' before the 16th century. If you want to raise eyebrows at medievalist get-togethers, you could get a T-shirt saying 'Motherswiver'.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

If I remember rightly, it is perfectly permissable to use strong, even what might be considered 'bad', language in Purgatory. For example, you can write 'that's a bullshit answer'. But you can't say 'you are a bullshitter', as that's a personal attack, rather than a comment on the argument. Hell, however, is almost no holds barred. Which is why folks who want to take a poster to task on a level outside of the argument will 'take it to Hell'. So as to keep the ad hominem aggression out of Purgatory.

Well, we can but hope [Big Grin]

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

[HOSTING]
This is NOT Hell. You will avoid personal insults here or you will face my slight irritation. Any further infractions of decorum will be dealt with without any more warnings.

Are we clear?

Good.

[/HOSTING]

That being said, let me point out that swear words are perfectly fucking fine everywhere - what we look to contain in Hell are personal conflicts. As such, conversations that are disrespectful - even with out various curse words - should be taken to Hell.

Hope that helps.

-RooK
Motherfucking Styx Host

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Frankenstein:

The appropriate use of language is communication. I suggest you master that before complaining about specific usage.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Something seriously weird is happening here. I posted this in Hell, where this thread also exists.

ETA: OK, never mind just got carried in the wake of the thread being shifted.

[ 15. March 2016, 15:49: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Yes, when I made a playful answer to RooK's post, the topic still appeared to be in Hell. Apologies.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Oddly, there doesn't seem to be a traceable etymology for 'fuck' before the 16th century.

It is cognate with Latin pugno, to fight.

Moo

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Oddly, there doesn't seem to be a traceable etymology for 'fuck' before the 16th century.

Ahem.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Splendid! Who says literary scholarship is a waste of time. We're still a few hundred years short of any actual anglo-saxons though.

My gripe is with using 'anglo-saxon' as a synonym for obscenities. We have no reason to think they were any swearier than anyone else. There are verses by Catullus would see off the smuttiest AS riddle (of which there are a few).

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

My gripe is with using 'anglo-saxon' as a synonym for obscenities. We have no reason to think they were any swearier than anyone else. There are verses by Catullus would see off the smuttiest AS riddle (of which there are a few).

I think it is just shorthand for Germanic-origin words with lots of harsh sounds - which are offensive - rather than words with the same meaning with a Latin/Greek origin which sound medical or technical.

Hence Fuck/Copulate, Piss/Urinate etc.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Moo: It is cognate with Latin pugno, to fight.

This word still means "fist" in most Roman languages.

quote:
Firenze: We have no reason to think they were any swearier than anyone else.

I find Spanish a good language for swearing.

[ 15. March 2016, 20:26: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Splendid! Who says literary scholarship is a waste of time. We're still a few hundred years short of any actual anglo-saxons though.

Our hero Mr. Fuckbythenavele's court case dates to 1310, in the same part of the country, and less than a century after the writing of texts such as "Ancrene Wisse" and "Hali Meiðhad", which as I understand it are written in a language which is more or less evolved Anglo-Saxon with Middle-English loan words.

This doesn't help us with the etymology of "fuck" but it does close the time gap a bit.

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I find Spanish a good language for swearing.

My Russian friends claim that all Western European languages are completely useless for swearing. They claim Russian has much more variety.

[ 15. March 2016, 21:07: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

My gripe is with using 'anglo-saxon' as a synonym for obscenities. We have no reason to think they were any swearier than anyone else. There are verses by Catullus would see off the smuttiest AS riddle (of which there are a few).
I think it is just shorthand for Germanic-origin words with lots of harsh sounds - which are offensive - rather than words with the same meaning with a Latin/Greek origin which sound medical or technical.

I always thought it was because after 1066 the Normans thought of themselves as bringing civilisation, including the Latin sourced French language. Anglo-Saxon language and practice was seen as part of the barbarianism that the Normans conquered. Which conveniently forgets that the Normans were only a few generations removed from effing Vikings.

It ever was so. The conquerors oppress the conquered by trying to suppress their language and culture, that civilised, loyal people don't speak like that. Breaking free from the shackles of oppression is often accompanied by a resurgence in the language of the oppressed - look at how Cymraeg, Gàidhlig, and Scots (or even many English regional dialects) have been considered "common", and even been actively discouraged from being used.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

I've often heard Americans swear and then "apologize" by saying "Pardon my French." I've never heard them say "Pardon my Anglo-Saxon." But then again, we don't concern ourselves very much with the Norman Conquest.
[Biased]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

You've got too many languages to choose from, the majority of which most people can't even name. "Pardon my Algonquian" (randomly chosen native peoples from what is now N Carolina), I'm not sure many would even be able to say it. On the other hand, there were lots of French in Louisiana (not just the state that currently bears that name - but the entire area between the Great Lakes and the Gulf of Mexico between the Appalachians and Rocky Mountains). A massive area now in Anglo-phone control.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've often heard Americans swear and then "apologize" by saying "Pardon my French." I've never heard them say "Pardon my Anglo-Saxon." But then again, we don't concern ourselves very much with the Norman Conquest.

Once a diocesan employee carelessly used a blasphemous phrase in front of our bishop. He looked at her blandly and told her there were plenty of good old Anglo-Saxon words available if she wanted to swear.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I find Spanish a good language for swearing.
My Russian friends claim that all Western European languages are completely useless for swearing. They claim Russian has much more variety.

I have found Danish (which has Russian origins) the best place to find words in my writing which have to look and sound right, irrespective of meaning.

I am, however, reminded of a scene in A Fish called Wanda.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Ah now, I don't think Alan's thesis - that the language of the conquered becomes a pejorative equivalence for 'bad' language - holds up in the case of French. I believe the expression 'pardon my French' originates in Britain, and in the centuries of warfare and cultural disdain. When they weren't trying to invade, the French were corrupting fine old English ways with their effete manners, morally dubious literature, Popish machinations and filthy food - his French ragout,/Or olio that wad staw a sow,/Or fricassee wad mak her spew.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Since my speculation (calling it a 'thesis' is probably pushing things too far) was mostly a bit of fun, I'm sure you're right that "pardon my French" derives from the long period of conflict between England and France, and has simply been adopted as a phrase in other Anglophone countries even those without a history of conflict with France.

I think it still highlights a common theme. A powerful way to denegrate and oppress a population is to attack their language or dialect. For the vast majority of people language and dialect is probably the biggest defining feature of where they come from - in how many parts of the world would someone be able to tell what part of a city someone is from by how they speak? Nothing marks you as "other" quite as definitely as when you open your mouth and speak in clearly different accent or language. Want to put someone down? Suggest that how they speak is "common", vulgar or crude - or conversely "ooh, aren't you all posh?".

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I suppose a deep question is why - or why not - regulate particular forms of English language on this forum.

I didn't start the culture here, but it strikes me that someone somewhere determined that Christianity (and, perhaps, the more general discussion of religion we have here) was not "nice" and thus one could use words which contain a lot of harsh consonant sounds without being unspiritual. Also - and I don't really understand how or why it happened - this board determined that conversation was better if there was a place where users could tell each other what they really thought of them in glorious technicolor.

It is a culture which can be hard to adapt to, particularly if one already misunderstands the nature of serious debate and has a thin skin. But hey, nobody said this thing was for everyone.

Warning: the following link contains a large amount of swearing:

I'd like to recommend this edition of the Allusionist podcast about the derivation and offensiveness of particular English words.

As it says, you probably wouldn't want to blast it out at a Christening. But it isn't anything worse than you'd read on this board.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

I, on the basis of absolutely no evidence, have always assumed that 'pardon my French' is a polite pretence that the utterance was in a foreign language that the hearer didn't quite catch, rather than an English utterance that the hearer understood all too well.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Ah now, I don't think Alan's thesis - that the language of the conquered becomes a pejorative equivalence for 'bad' language - holds up in the case of French. I believe the expression 'pardon my French' originates in Britain, and in the centuries of warfare and cultural disdain.

I'm not sure - French was the, well, Lingua Franca of the aristocracy for much of Europe for a long time. Wasn't it one of the King Henries (of England) who couldn't actually speak English and only spoke French? Also see Tolstoy whose aristocratic characters always seem to speak French.

I think the implication is of double irony: Fuck actually isn't French and the sound of the words in French and Spanish sound generally rounder than the harsher Germanic words. So I think "excuse my French" is implying that one knows the words are not French and that the aristocracy are as sweary as we are, but we just don't understand the words they're using.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I expect it was quite a while, post-Conquest, before any King of England (and varying chunks of France) spoke english. Or, indeed, there was something recognisable as english to be spoken. Chaucer at the court of Richard II springs to mind.

French was undoubtedly a status language for diplomacy, as was Latin for scholarly writing, but I think, to the ordinary, non-aristocratic, person, that would make it an object of more resentment, not less.

Language is littered with mementos of past national antagonisms - French leave, Dutch courage, Hunnish practices.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Language is littered with mementos of past national antagonisms - French leave

You mean filer à l'anglaise?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
mr cheesy: Fuck actually isn't French and the sound of the words in French and Spanish sound generally rounder than the harsher Germanic words.

Now I'm wondering if this reflects on the way in which people from these different countries have sex.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
mr cheesy: Fuck actually isn't French and the sound of the words in French and Spanish sound generally rounder than the harsher Germanic words.
Now I'm wondering if this reflects on the way in which people from these different countries have sex.

Research - if you haven't already. Report back.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Something seriously weird is happening here. I posted this in Hell, where this thread also exists.

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Yes, when I made a playful answer to RooK's post, the topic still appeared to be in Hell. Apologies.

No, I screwed that up - plain and simple. Mockery deserved.

What I'm baffled about is that nobody behind the scenes mocked me for it.
Standards == slipping

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Firenze: Research - if you haven't already. Report back.

*Does a memory check* Yes indeed I've indeed had sex in all three of those languages. But I'm afraid I'm not very good in advanced linguistical analysis during the act. Multi-tasking isn't my strongest side.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
You've got too many languages to choose from, the majority of which most people can't even name. "Pardon my Algonquian" (randomly chosen native peoples from what is now N Carolina),

Just to be pedantic, Algonquian was not a single language but a family of languages, not unlike "Germanic" or "Romance." What is now (eastern) North Carolina formed the fringes of what was an extremely large area where Algonquian languages were spoken. The bulk of that area was centered around eastern Canada and the Great Lakes region.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I always thought it was because after 1066 the Normans thought of themselves as bringing civilisation, including the Latin sourced French language. Anglo-Saxon language and practice was seen as part of the barbarianism that the Normans conquered. Which conveniently forgets that the Normans were only a few generations removed from effing Vikings.

And just to be a little more pedantic, didn't the Norman invaders and their descendants speak Norman (at first) or Anglo-Norman (later), both of which were forms of Old French?

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

And wasn't Old French a bastardisation of Latin? It's all dialect as we say in linguistics. Unless you want to go back to speaking Ur-Sanskrit we are all talking in some tribal patois or another. The only difference is if it happens to be the one The King speaks, in which case it becomes the Proper version.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And wasn't Old French a bastardisation of Latin? It's all dialect as we say in linguistics.

Sure. But when we say the Normans spoke "French," the natural implication would be French as we know it—Modern French. If we're being careful to say that the residents of Hastings in 1065 spoke Anglo-Saxon/Old English rather than simply saying they spoke "English," it seems worthwhile to be as careful about the Normans.

/pedantry

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