Ship of Fools: Poppies - Time to Forget?

Thread: Poppies - Time to Forget? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

Leader of the opposition bullied into not wearing a white poppy.
WWII veteran banned from remembrance day celebrations over his peace campaigning.
Irish footballer has to account for his decision not to wear a poppy.
TV presenter abused for not wearing a poppy on screen.

All of these are recurring themes. Every year the same old stories. Peace campaigners want remembrance to be about peace. War campaigners want remembrance to be about "heroes". Those who use it to make a statement are bullied by those who what it to make a different statement.

Is this the way we should remember those who died in war? Can I wear a poppy (of any colour) and not associate myself with a "faction"? Has remembrance outlived its original purpose, and should we forget the whole thing now?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I think it does raise passions, and becomes highly political.

I refuse to wear a poppy. If I did, it would be a white poppy, because the point is to reject war, remember how appalling it is and remember not to do it again. Like we have learnt that lesson.

I also don't wear one because it has become too demanding, to much a statement of conformity. I don't really do conformity.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

We are still asking often deprived youngsters to kill and risk being killed on our behalf. As long as we as a nation do that it is not time to forget.

It is time for contrition and remorse.

Jengie

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

I wish we had like buttons. Including for the Irish lad and the old boy. In a house with two women this morning, it was impossible to get to the bathroom and get to the service, I put me black jacket and red and white poppies on just now but the wreath had been laid and the crowd had broken up. I watched the old boys with their medals walk away. One of these years the red AND the white will get an outing.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

I don't feel strongly enough about wearing a red poppy to consider it a great hardship so I get one every year and pin it to my lapel. However, I do feel a little resentment at being made to feel that to do otherwise would be an act of treason.

In the part of Greater Manchester where I now live there is a large Asian Muslim community. There's also a large white population whose families have lived and worked in these former mill towns for years, and it isn't rare to hear expressions on the tram, on the bus, and in the supermarket of the sort of xenophobic rhetoric of certain well known groups. I've made local friends and acquaintances, and I see how often they "like" and reshare Britain First's Facebook posts.

I would prefer to donate to the Royal British Legion because of their good work while choosing instead to wear a white poppy because of what it stands for but I'm scared to do that.

I'm ethnically a mix of white Franco-Irish and black Caribbean, which apparently makes me look Asian to many people. Essentially I'm brown-skinned young male with facial hair.

So I wear a red poppy.

Posted by Felafool (# 270) on :

This saddens me so much each year, and raises a number of issues. Who or what are we remembering, what is the British Legion funding for and should veterans have to rely on charity rather than government support, freedom of choice, white, red or none...the list goes on.

see for example Symon Hill's recent blogs on Ecclesia here

The mantra of wearing your poppy 'with pride' potentially fuels a nationalistic jingoism.

The problem is that in all of this we lose sight of the fact that war sucks. We need to find other ways to resolve differences and conflict.

My father was an RAF pilot in WW2, my Grandfather was wounded in the Battle of the Somme in WW1. But I want to remember more than just the British military (who are represented by the British Legion red poppy). I want to remember all who have been affected by the idiocy of war...serving men and women on all sides, civilians, children, conscientious objectors (see e.g. Britain’s most decorated enlisted soldier in WW1 was a conscientious objector who never fired a shot

I tried wearing a white poppy, but it seemed to upset too many people. So now I don't wear any poppy, but I will never forget.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I wear one red, one white.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

This is beginning to sound like the War of the Roses, only now it's the War of the Red or White Poppies.

In the U.S. Wednesday will be Veterans' Day, hardly any poppies will be worn, but it's a big day for sales, beating the Christmas rush!

Memorial Day, the end of May, is much more about remembering those who have died in wars.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Felafool:

I tried wearing a white poppy, but it seemed to upset too many people. So now I don't wear any poppy, but I will never forget.

I have yet to receive any pushback at all for it: it does not seem to be as much of a lightning-rod here, and I wonder if that's because it's less well-known (I have to get them through my confessor, who orders them from England to distribute at her parish).

I tend to avoid Remembrance Sunday services and quietly sneak off to somewhere it isn't kept (when I lived in Toronto the patronal festival at St Martin-in-the-Fields was the perfect escape hatch). I would prefer the modern English custom, followed in some of the more anglophilic east-coast Anglo-Catholic parishes of the Episcopal Church, of a Requiem at the parish mass. (Come to think of it, did I read somewhere the first poppies were black? That would settle my scruples altogether).

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I wear one red, one white.

That's my intention, since the donations for the red support veterans' services, which I am certainly all for. I haven't managed to get a red one yet this year just because I haven't yet managed to catch the old gent who has them at the corner supermarket on a day he's been there.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I don't mind people wearing poppies, although the conformist element is rather ironic, since presumably the 'war for freedom' in WWII included the freedom to dissent.

I was struck by the Irish guy mentioning Bloody Sunday, and there is also stuff like Iraq.

I haven't worn a poppy for 50 years.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I do wear a red poppy now, out of free will choice, because I have come to recognise it as a symbol of sacrifice and not a symbol of war. The red represents the blood shed by those who have died or been wounded, the black centre those who have been bereaved, the green leaf the new life of peace and freedom enabled by the sacrifice.

Nobody should wear a poppy of any colour if they don't want to. Those who do want to wear one should not be condemned as warmongers or praised as patriots; those who don't should not be condemned as unpatriotic or praised as pacifists.

We should continue to remember imv. We will never have peace unless we recognise the realities of war.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

The white poppy is closest to my sentiments, and I've worn it in the past. This year I wore a red for the first time in many years, as I'd been asked to take part in the local act of remembrance. I recognise that the RBL do important work, but I don't consider former service personnel to be any more (or less) deserving of help than someone traumatised by childhood abuse or who lost a limb in a deep sea fishing accident so they are not a major recipient of my charitable donations. I was also tasked this year with leading the Remembrance Sunday service, and spoke about the ethical dilemma we are faced with as Christians regarding war and the use of violence.

I do think, though, that the time has come, as the generations of mass mobilisation and conscription pass away, to shift the emphasis from being primarily about (our own) service personnel to focussing on the total human cost of war. For people of my generation, we're more likely to have lost someone in a car accident than we are to war, and the act of remembrance is never going to carry the same meaning as for those who lost friends or relatives, or for children who grew up never knowing their father or uncle. We shouldn't try to pretend a remembrance that is not our own, and I think there is a certain amount of that with the current practice.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Never ever heard of a white poppy. The poppy is always red here, sold by the Royal Canadian Legion and is clearly a symbol of sorrow and sadness. If your poppies have become symbols of "support the troops" and militarism, the Remembrance Day has been co-opted.

"In Flanders fields the poppies blow
between the crosses, row on row....

We are the dead
short days ago, we lived..."
(pretty near every Canadian can recite John McCrae's poem. The day is about sorrow.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

They certainly do exist in Canada. This is from last year.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

In the US poppies are rather going out of style. They are for Memorial Day, in May, rather than Veterans Day, in November, but I find it harder and harder to find one each year.

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

Oh and here we go again this year:
Remembrance is an opportunity to take a pop at Jeremy Corbyn.
Remembrance is an opportunity to feign offence at a supermarket's remembrance offering - and then feign offence when they change it.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Has remembrance outlived its original purpose, and should we forget the whole thing now?

Depends what you're remembering, doesn't it? It isn't all about the world wars. Widows who lost their men in the Falklands, or Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, will likely have strong views on this, and probably want to preserve the tradition. Commemoration of war dead isn't just historical: it's contemporary.

I never wear a poppy. I always found them too upsetting. I never buy one, either, but if I find one that someone has dropped I'll pick it up and put it on my desk for the season. It'll usually be a bit crumpled and dusty, but it's more evocative of the fallen that way, and I take time to honour their memories, and keep the silence. Nobody has ever challenged me for not wearing a poppy.

In answer to your question: no, it isn't time to forget. You may not be directly affected in your own family, but others will be in theirs.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I wear a red poppy every year - ISTM to emphasise the sheer bloody awfulness of the wars the fucktards in our Government want us to fight for them.....

OTOH, I don't think they're at all appropriate on ecclesiastical vestments, so Father and I left them off our chasuble and dalmatic this morning....but, given that it's Kingdom Season in yer good ol' C of E, we were in red anyway.

This morning's entirely appropriate homily (IMNSHO) dealt with Remembrance, Repentance, and Resolve (i.e. to follow all paths leading away from war and conflict, contrasting the Kingdom of God, referred to by Jesus in today's Gospel, with the shoddy, flawed, sinful etc. values of 'the world'.

I.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

It does all relate to the wider issue of the near beatification of the forces. Which is a way of diverting attention from the governments who send them into action.

ISTM that trying to force the focus onto the soldiers, sailors and airmen who died in the wars, and the "sacrifice they made for us" distracts from the important questions about why the politicians decided to fight that war.

I think it is far more hypocritical for Tony Blair to wear a poppy, remembering those whom he sent to an illegal war to die for his political ambitions. Of course, mentioning this is "politicising" the sacrifice. Like it is not already political. And always has been.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... "In Flanders fields the poppies blow
between the crosses, row on row....

We are the dead
short days ago, we lived..."
(pretty near every Canadian can recite John McCrae's poem. The day is about sorrow.

Do they think about what they're reciting?

quote:
... Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

The Canadian Legion has enabled thousands of Canadian veterans to drink themselves to death, which is just one of the reasons I longer buy or wear a poppy. There are better ways to care for and support the victims and survivors of war than running a bar with a weekly meat draw.

Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :

I usually remember to buy a (red) poppy. But, never having been a member of the armed forces, do I have the right to wear one?

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
They certainly do exist in Canada. This is from last year.

They are so marginal as to be invisible. Nothing like the UK.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It does all relate to the wider issue of the near beatification of the forces. Which is a way of diverting attention from the governments who send them into action.

ISTM that trying to force the focus onto the soldiers, sailors and airmen who died in the wars, and the "sacrifice they made for us" distracts from the important questions about why the politicians decided to fight that war.

I think it is far more hypocritical for Tony Blair to wear a poppy, remembering those whom he sent to an illegal war to die for his political ambitions. Of course, mentioning this is "politicising" the sacrifice. Like it is not already political. And always has been.

Yes, I was struck by the Irish footballer, who said, am I supposed to remember Bloody Sunday in a positive way? It's a strange conflation between people who have died, and the wars they died in. For example, do we include the fight against the Mau Mau in Kenya, which included possible war crimes and other abuses? Or do we glide over such things as unfortunate by-products of war?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Has remembrance outlived its original purpose, and should we forget the whole thing now?
Depends what you're remembering, doesn't it? It isn't all about the world wars. Widows who lost their men in the Falklands, or Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, will likely have strong views on this, and probably want to preserve the tradition. Commemoration of war dead isn't just historical: it's contemporary.

As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

NOT widows and certainly not the 'enemy' dead.

I wear a while poppy.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

NOT widows and certainly not the 'enemy' dead.

War widows aren't qualified to wear one?

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

I would feel less badly about the beatification of the armed forces if that actually meant that we looked after those who served properly once they were discharged and they did not need to rely on charity!

Jengie

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
They certainly do exist in Canada. This is from last year.
They are so marginal as to be invisible. Nothing like the UK.

In the years since I have heard of the white poppy, I have yet to see one. Perhaps those who share the sentiments simply avoid poppies??

Last year, on account of the death of Nathan Cirillo at the War Monument in Ottawa and W/o Vincent in Saint-Jean-de-Richelie, Ottawa was chock-full of poppies and I saw more than ever before in Montreal. This year, there is a fair sprinkling among south Asian teenagers, perhaps more than among their old stock™ schoolfriends-- there are fewer among East Asian or Black & African teenagers.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

NOT widows and certainly not the 'enemy' dead.
War widows aren't qualified to wear one?

I think the point being made is that anyone can wear one, but the intent is to remember fallen British and (possibly) allied service personnel, not all those who die in war.

Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

To some extent that might be true, but the British Legion does fund Admiral Nurses who are specialist nurses, employed to support carers who look after those who did serve and now have dementia.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

I have never seen a white poppy either (living in UK and working in London).

I wore my poppy with pride for - oh, 50 years? - but stopped a few years ago as it seems to have become so over the top, almost compulsory, and I find that unpleasant.

M.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
To some extent that might be true, but the British Legion does fund Admiral Nurses who are specialist nurses, employed to support carers who look after those who did serve and now have dementia.

Slight rephrasing necessary.

"Admiral Nurses are specialist nurses, employed to support carers who look after those who now have dementia." The dementia sufferer doesn't have to have been in the forces, though if they have, and need residential care, the Legion does fund four care homes.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I have been to Church a few times on Rememberance Day. Something about it never feels quite right.
War is grotesque, much of it's dark appeal lies there. We dress it into something better with parades, plaques and ceremonies.
I observed the silence at the cenotaph with the TV on. It all looked a bit political somehow, but then who's to say politics isn't the way to prevent war.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

It's establishment. Which incorporates the political and the religious. Emasculates Christ.

That's why it feels wrong. That's why it IS wrong.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I would feel less badly about the beatification of the armed forces if that actually meant that we looked after those who served properly once they were discharged and they did not need to rely on charity!

Jengie

As with other saints, it is only in concept that they are so wonderful, or once they are dead. Their actual, physical presence and demands on us are just uncomfortable and unpleasant.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As far as The British Legion is concerned, the red poppy is for military dead ONLY.

NOT widows and certainly not the 'enemy' dead.
War widows aren't qualified to wear one?
I think the point being made is that anyone can wear one, but the intent is to remember fallen British and (possibly) allied service personnel, not all those who die in war.

And yet today's London cenotaph service involved men and women from numerous nations wearing poppies and laying poppy (and other kinds of) wreathes, and walking in the official national processions, as living reminders of the extent of 'British' war involvement. An important reminder that the UK's unusual level of multiculturalism - whether one likes it or not - is historically embedded in its national life, not least through the sacrifice and service of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of non-British combatants. What was it the commentator said, over 2,000,000 Indians fought in the second world war - just to give a wee example?

The issue being, not so much how coerced, potentially, they were to fight on the side of the alllies against the Germans. But that a sacrifice was made and please can it be acknowledged as something worth acknowledging and not brushed under the carpet as never having happened, just because it makes for uncomfortable recollection in our more 'enlightened' times?

So for me the poppy is about 'Lest we forget'.

I wear it, not because I want to see wars being fought but because they are brutal realities of our pathetic consistent failure as a species to apply logic, compassion and other positive human qualities to situations involving principle, territorial conflicts, greed etc.

And we should be reminded as strongly as possible, for as long as possible, and as uncompromisingly as possible about the true cost of war, until we eventually grow up and find a way of resolving our dick-waving contests without murdering each other.

And, imo, the poppy is a direct reminder that human beings spilt blood in an attempt, however flawed, to make a better world. And that this should be so, isn't good enough, so let's continue to be appalled by loss of life and work to do something about it.

So is it time to forget how bloody and crappy the world gets when our politicians and others in authority eff things up? Or when people who make themselves powerful with hate-infested ideologies and bigger weapons than their weaker neighbours decide the world is their personal plaything? No. It's not.

Not until we've got a viable alternative.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's establishment. Which incorporates the political and the religious. Emasculates Christ.

That's why it feels wrong. That's why it IS wrong.

Bang on target there Martin.
Many of the poem writers from WW1 questioned the whereabouts of God in what they saw in front of them. One was Ivor Gurney in his poem called "The Target" strangely enough.

And yes SC, service personnel are often held in that same regard -- Highest of esteem when they leave/veiled disdain when they return.
The emotions thrown up by war repeat themselves over and over. It could be that having Remembrance Day year on year is, if nothing else, a reminder of that sickly and intoxicating blend of tragedy mixed with euphoria only war can produce.
How could it not make Jesus weep.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Excuse me, but the selling of poppies is not political.

In the UK poppies are still made by disabled ex-servicemen and women who are employed to do so by the Earl Haig Fund, which has been doing this since 1921. The EHF is a charity that gives assistance to ex-service people, particularly those who have lost limbs or their sight; the Fund has always taken the view that it is better for the whole man to have employment rather than just exist on a handout - a view that today we would describe as applying a holistic approach to the welfare or maimed ex-service personnel.

The red poppy became associated with remembrance first in the USA and spread to the UK later: of course, it is because of the famous poem In Flanders fields (written by a Canadian) that we also associate the poppy with remembrance of war dead.

As for whether or not it is time to forget: just ask the veterans of VietNam how corrosive it has been for them to have been the unacknowledged casualties of a war and you might change your mind.

Like it or not, wars keep being fought: all war is bad but not all war is either evil or avoidable. Those of us unable, or unwilling, to fight in such conflicts nevertheless owe those who do respect for their service and respect for the sacrifice of those who don't return.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
They certainly do exist in Canada. This is from last year.
They are so marginal as to be invisible. Nothing like the UK.
In the years since I have heard of the white poppy, I have yet to see one.

As I say, I have quite a to-do every couple of years getting a hold of one (I try to make them last more than a year because of the scarcity). I don't think I have ever seen anyone wearing one with whom I was not glancingly acquainted or indeed who did not get them from the same church I do. (This year, I had my father pick up two and post them to me in Montréal, and I haven't seen any others at all here).

There were several people, though still a minority, wearing red poppies at Mass today (we're being quite correct and transferring Remembrance Sunday forward rather than anticipating today) and no one remarked on mine at all.

[ 09. November 2015, 00:00: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I have never seen white poppies worn in Australia, but the wearing of red poppies is common. I can't see any problem in wearing something in memory of loved ones lost in war. I certainly wear one in memory of a great uncle who died in the trenches in France. This has nothing to do with glorifying war, but for me is wearing a poppy in honour of a relation whose life was cut short doing what he believed he had to do for his country and who therefore never got the chance grow old. I never had the chance to meet him, but he was my grandmother's much loved youngest brother. I wear a poppy to also honour all the other young men and women who fell as he did.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
And, imo, the poppy is a direct reminder that human beings spilt blood in an attempt, however flawed, to make a better world.

Although we then teach our children modern history including the events leading up to conflict in 1914 ... and, there is nothing there about attempting to make a better world. It was a war between European colonial powers, neither side was fighting for better conditions in the colonies of the other side. Neither side was fighting because the other side, if they had won, was going to suppress the freedoms and liberties of the losers. There was no fundamental differences between French and German, British and Austrian. We all had practically the same Royal Families (except for the French). For generations, European powers had been involved in a Cold War fought in proxy conflicts in Africa and Asia. A Cold War for economic supremacy, with all sides maintaining massive armies and navies which no one actually intended to use against the other European powers - they knew that war in Europe was going to destroy too many lives on each side - they existed as a deterent against such a war. It was an early 20th Century version of Mutually Assured Destruction, and deterrence failed. The tragedy of the 1914-18 war was that there was no "good guy", it wasn't a war to defend our way of life from dictatorship. It was a war where the only enemy to a better world was the war itself. It was a charnal house for no benefit to anyone.

We can honour the sacrifice of that war. We can respect their patriotism, their heroism, we can mourn their loss and remember the tragedy. We can, as the first Remembrances always did, look back and declare "never again". But, we can't look back on the war as a fight for freedom and liberty, as a struggle against oppression and dictatorship, as a defence of "our way of life" and all that cobblers.

Later wars, well they were different. The Nazi regime in 1939 was an evil cancer in the heart of Europe that needed to be cut out. The Soviet Union was a repressive regime that, at least under Stalin, sought to expand it's influence.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Later wars, well they were different. The Nazi regime in 1939 was an evil cancer in the heart of Europe that needed to be cut out. The Soviet Union was a repressive regime that, at least under Stalin, sought to expand it's influence.

As long as we remember we had a hand in the conditions which caused those as well.
We should never forget the sacrifice others made for us, but also never hide our culpability in the necessity.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

I would say that an act of Remembrance, to be meaningful, has to include an element of remembering the parts our own nations played in creating the situations that lead to war. When we remember those who died, and those who came home but were never the same people, we must remember that they fought for their country, and that same country through short-sightedness, stupidity, ignorance or deliberate actions created the situations that lead to war.

And, Remembering to declare "never again". Which must, IMO, include campaigning against the actions of our own government and commercial interests that are going to act to increase rather than decrease global tensions and inequalities. We cannot, IMO, truly Remember war without being active peacemakers.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Alan - I couldn't agree more. Just thinking of dead soldiers, sailors and airmen - however moving - is inadequate.

[ 09. November 2015, 06:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Perhaps I should have been clearer. I have no problem with remembrance, with poppies themselves, with the service and march past at the Cenotaph or most of the other trappings (couldn't be doing with the Festival of Remembrance on Saturday evening, though).

I have a problem with what seems like an increasingly imposed uniformity - if you don't wear a poppy, you are not patriotic, you do not honour 'our boys' etc. -the increasing vilification of those that choose not to wear a poppy.

M.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I'm not sure about northern Tasmania, where Bib lives, but in Sydney poppies only arrive on Remembrance Day itself, being sold as a charitable fundraiser. I'll put on a sprig of rosemary before I leave home, then buy a poppy in the city. None of this carrying-on about wearing them a fortnight beforehand, nor the none-too-subtle enforcement that appears to happen in the UK. I'll bet it does not go on in the rest of Europe.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

I am not convinced that the use of the poppy is all about remembrance of sacrifice - http://www.poppyshop.org.uk/all-products.html?limit=all . Because I can't envisage a situation where a poppy themed beanie, shopping bag or cascade ear rings are really reflecting that emotional/reflective state.

It looks much more like a pro-military trope when used in that way.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

I must give some thought to wearing white and red.

Meanwhile, I'm not always where the poppies are being sold, but I was concerned when a few years ago the RSA stopped having the poppies made in a sheltered workshop, as they had been for some years, and ordered cheaper ones from China. No doubt there were attractive savings to be made, but it seemed a mean thing to do.

GG

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

My daughter packed off to school this morning wearing a white poppy an expecting to get into trouble for it - according to her, she'll be the only person wearing one and one of few to not wear the red poppy.

But then she does tend to exaggerate things somewhat - according to her, the priest last night who was rambling something about the Holy Spirit being present when people stand together in shared liturgy at "Remembrancetide" kept on staring at her white poppy and the worshipper on her other side took a visible step sideways when he noticed it. Trying to avoid the shrapnel when she gets hit by the divine lightening, I suppose.

I think many have made some great points above. I especially agree that my grandfather and his generation did not fight for the kind of freedom that pressurises everyone to conform to a cultural emblem or thinks it acceptable for a military leader to envisage ignoring the will of the people. In fact, my grandfather fought against the rigid militarisation of society, against forced "correct" official doctrines and against military rule.

In terms of the act of remembrance, I think we have to increasingly ask who or what we are remembering when all those involved in the traumatic conflicts are no longer alive. Yes, it is true that the whole country was involved in WW2 in a way that never happened before in a form of shared experience and fight for survival.

But the legacy of that trauma has extended to hero-worship and military pride - so that now we seem to be slipping back into "my country right or wrong" flag-waving.

One thing to stand and recall those people you actually knew who had their lives cut short, another to be forced to be part of a cultural conversation of which you have no personal experience nor relationship.

The language is singularly unhelpful: what actually are we supposed to be remembering? The needless, pointless waste of life at the Somme?

If I recall the facts that this happened without knowing personally anyone involved, how is this different to remembering Trafalgar, Waterloo? Why is the serviceman who died in Iraq more worthy of the annual title of hero than the civilian lifeboatmen (and others) who risk (and sometimes pay with) their lives to save others?

Is this just a sign that the whole narrative of our country is based on the Myth of Redemptive Violence?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Excellent post. Hope things go well for your daughter.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

The Irish footballer who won't wear a poppy because of Bloody Sunday is a good example of just how politicised the whole thing has become. I don't wear a poppy, but I don't wear the emblem of any charity unless I'm actually working for them. Perhaps I would if I were a direct beneficiary. I don't like Remembrance Sunday services generally speaking, but that is more specifically to do with what I think of as a modern heresy of equating sacrifice in war with the sacrifice of Christ; something I am deeply uncomfortable with, but perhaps the subject of another thread. But what I will say is that facts should never get in the way of a good political point scoring exercise, should they?

The vast majority of those who went off to World War 1 from Ireland were Roman Catholic, politically nationalist (or at least leaning that direction) and unemployed. For many it was an opportunity of employment and little else. The country was at a seriously low ebb and appeared economically and culturally to be grinding to a slow halt. It had become the playground of the rich and landed. The generations before them had lived through a terrible famine that few people seemed too concerned about, but they were too poor to leave the country like so many others did and so they stayed to watch one third of the population die. Here they were with no rights, no land, no money and culturally suppressed. They went off to war with the British Army to enable them to have enough money to feed their families. Of course this created a vacuum that was to be exploited by those who would attempt to strike out for something they thought might be better which was to arrive in another bloody, tangled mess in 1916. When the Roman Catholic nationalists returned to this new Ireland they found it had moved on without them. They were shunned, forgotten, ignored.

They could have been remembered, but I guess bitterness and a hardening of attitudes kept this from being a reality. My own experience of the British Legion here in Ireland in the past has been of people who have been rabidly unionist, who seemed incapable of accepting that Ireland had independence and who wanted to maintain remembrance observance as a political tool akin to a dog pissing on a lamppost with Unionist scented urine. To me it was neither appropriate nor respectful and certainly not respectful to those who actually served and died from Ireland, yet there is a peculiar irony to their stance. That, thankfully, has changed considerably as new blood has arrived into the RBL offices here in Ireland and Ireland is at a point where it can actually remember the war dead of World War 1, but the political shenanigans of 'support our troops', 'let's hate on Corbyn' and 'it's a Protestant only thing' all help to destabilise it. Those who would politicise it in whatever way are also helping to destroy it.

That is not to say that a footballer should be forced to wear a poppy (or anyone for that matter), nor should there be any reason to ask why he isn't wearing one. I presume he doesn't wear a breast cancer awareness ribbon or an AID's day ribbon. I'm not about to ask him why not.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, Remembering to declare "never again"

indeed - so it is highly significant that the original poppies were intended to have the words 'never again' in the middle but the British Legion refused to allow this.

All of which makes me think that the whole occasion is a form of indoctrination so that young people have at the back of their minds 'when my time comes to make the ultimate sacrifice.....'

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

I have no difficulty with the red poppy. We need to remember constantly those who died thinking they were fighting for a better world, and then look around at the world we have made, and ask ourselves if their sacrifice was worth it.
'For your tomorrow, they gave their today.'

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

I'd like to wear a white poppy, but the trouble is that the donations made to buy them don't seem to go to anything particularly meaningful. The RBL can point to the actual support they've given to human beings. The people who make the white poppies do a lot of grandstanding about peace if I remember correctly, but I don't think they do anything more substantial than that.

I do wish that it was easier to question the morality of a national military action, such as the war in Iraq, without it being seen as an attack on Jim Smith from Colchester, who dragged three children out of a burning building and also saved the lives of his whole regiment that time. I also wish that we didn't have to regard every single person who joins the armed forces as a hero by default. I get it - armed personnel are often brave and sometimes make great sacrifice. But they are humans. They are usually unremarkable humans who went for a particular career choice, sometimes because there were no other options open to them. "Have a great career! Excitment! Personal development! Travel! Bonding with friends! See the world! Oh you might also get blown up but that's just the risk you take." They get sent off to a foreign land by a government that doesn't really give a shit about people dying to achieve its objectives (which might simply be to win an election or get a good trade deal). The government sees these people as completely disposable because all politicians have to do is call them heroes and look sufficiently sombre in November. They don't have to manage foreign affairs in a way that doesn't result in Jim being dead and Bob being traumatised and Gary having to shit in a bag for the rest of his life.

I think that's a crying shame. But it's a complicated scenario and it's difficult to express any kind of nuance when your options are red poppy, white poppy or no poppy. So I wear a red poppy because it's important to some of the people around me, and because the RBL will send someone around to have a cup of tea with Bob, which seems like the least we can do in the circumstances really.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
It's difficult to express any kind of nuance when your options are red poppy, white poppy or no poppy.

You missed one option: both poppies, as worn by myself and some others.

I think that was a great post, thanks.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
]Do they think about what they're reciting?

quote:
... Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
The Canadian Legion has enabled thousands of Canadian veterans to drink themselves to death, which is just one of the reasons I longer buy or wear a poppy. There are better ways to care for and support the victims and survivors of war than running a bar with a weekly meat draw.

I don't know what education is like in your part of Canada (I presume I know where Caprica City is), but In Flanders Fields is part of a large education unit and has been for 50 years both by schools and via media. Everyone knows or faile the unit, it they don't understand the context of Mcrae's poem and that he died. He was writing in a particular context, before WW1 ended. And everyone should be ashamed if they are Canadian and don't know the rest of the story.

The comments about the Legion are profoundly ignorant. Many of the vets, now dead, found a place where others had shared in their horrible experiences. Trauma. No understanding back them of the impacts of what they'd been though. But more to the point, I have seen no statistics about vets having had more alcoholism than those who did not go to war. Please provide these.

[ 09. November 2015, 11:48: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As long as we remember we had a hand in the conditions which caused those as well.
We should never forget the sacrifice others made for us, but also never hide our culpability in the necessity.

LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.

Posted by fausto (# 13737) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... "In Flanders fields the poppies blow
between the crosses, row on row....

We are the dead
short days ago, we lived..."
(pretty near every Canadian can recite John McCrae's poem. The day is about sorrow.
Do they think about what they're reciting?

quote:
... Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
The Canadian Legion has enabled thousands of Canadian veterans to drink themselves to death, which is just one of the reasons I longer buy or wear a poppy. There are better ways to care for and support the victims and survivors of war than running a bar with a weekly meat draw.

I prefer Wilfred Owen's "Parable of the Old Man and the Young":

http://www.poemtree.com/poems/ParableOfTheOldMan.htm

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As long as we remember we had a hand in the conditions which caused those as well.
We should never forget the sacrifice others made for us, but also never hide our culpability in the necessity.
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.

The thing is, Remembrance is a social commemoration. We are remembering, together. And, so we remember too that our nations, as they were then, were responsible in part for the conditions that lead to war. And, we commit ourselves, as a society, to avoid the mistakes of history and take other paths so that never again will we face war. To make Remembrance just about each of us as individuals remembering those we may know who have fought in war is to cut the heart out of Remembrance. Just as making Communion an individual feast between Christians remembering what Christ has done for them personally is to gut the heart out of the Eucharist.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The thing is, Remembrance is a social commemoration. We are remembering, together.

True. Facebook at the moment looks like a pretty poppy fest [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Were you by any chance listening to my homily yesterday, Alan?

[Two face]

Wot U sed, anyhoo.

I.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

When I lived in GB I used to wear both. Since then I've had a fall-out with a "White Poppies for peace" group on Facebook because of their anti-semitic posts and have seen an encroaching of militarism into more areas of civic life, such as soldiers coming on the field at Anfield on the game before Armistice Day and red poppies appearing on football shirts, and what with how Corbyn's being treated, I associate the red poppies now with jingoism.

The problem is that it is [EMAIL]one[/EMAIL] form of national remembrance which is being held to be the normative one. This is always the door to discrimination.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As long as we remember we had a hand in the conditions which caused those as well.
We should never forget the sacrifice others made for us, but also never hide our culpability in the necessity.
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.

Pedantically, the stage was set well before Germany rolled into Poland. But we are responsible for what our government does, even should we occupy no elected or appointed position within it. That the effect an individual has is variable does not exclude responsibility.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Since then I've had a fall-out with a "White Poppies for peace" group on Facebook because of their anti-semitic posts

Just to comment on this - the peace movement has historically had a lot of ties with various undesirable anti-Semitic groups, notably the British People's Party in the early 20 century.

I don't believe in damning people with history, but I do think it is worth reflecting that even the whitest of white peace organisations have an uncomfortable history they need to face up to.

And that it is still possible to hold disgusting views whilst hiding behind the most pure of symbols.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.

I think I sort of agree with this. Although on one level I have a sense of national shame from (for example) the actions of Britain in Ireland and India, on another level I am also tempted to Pride because my sense of shame proves to me that I am a virtuous and moral person, certainly more virtuous than all those flag-wavers, even though in reality it achieves nothing for anyone.

On the other hand ... we are quite willing to see ourselves as the legitimate heirs to all the good things our national forebears have created. We believe we have a right to the advantages of British citizenship even though we personally have done very little to create those advantages. I don't think we can consistently inherit the triumphs without inheriting the shame.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think I sort of agree with this. Although on one level I have a sense of national shame from (for example) the actions of Britain in Ireland and India, on another level I am also tempted to Pride because my sense of shame proves to me that I am a virtuous and moral person, certainly more virtuous than all those flag-wavers, even though in reality it achieves nothing for anyone.

That's odd. I never think that I'm more virtuous when faced with these stories from our history, just that placed in the same time period, I would probably have done exactly the same. For me the full horror of British empire-building is that exactly the same attitudes still exist today - within the political and social fabric of the country and within my own frail heart.

I guess it must be because I'm naturally pessimistic about myself, only holding things together with spit-and-stickbackplastic and likely would have been on the fast-road to hell (as it were) in very slightly changed circumstances.

quote:
On the other hand ... we are quite willing to see ourselves as the legitimate heirs to all the good things our national forebears have created. We believe we have a right to the advantages of British citizenship even though we personally have done very little to create those advantages. I don't think we can consistently inherit the triumphs without inheriting the shame.

Again, I don't think I am a legitimate heir to all this shit I have collected around me. It used to be said that to be born British was to have won the lottery of life, but I personally feel that my whole life is built upon a edifice hewn by my forefathers from the bedrock they did not own.

I am sorry to mix metaphors, I hope you understand what I mean.

[ 09. November 2015, 13:51: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Ricardus:
My initial point was that "evil conqueror" v. "noble defender" is bollocks. Not defending Hitler in the slightest. Just saying a spark needs fuel to cause a fire.
The secondary point is that a government exists at the will of its populace.

[ 09. November 2015, 13:56: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Since then I've had a fall-out with a "White Poppies for peace" group on Facebook because of their anti-semitic posts
Just to comment on this - the peace movement has historically had a lot of ties with various undesirable anti-Semitic groups, notably the British People's Party in the early 20 century.

Could you elaborate on this a little?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Could you elaborate on this a little?

Sure. The Peace Pledge Union was setup as a pacifist organisation in 1934. For a long time, it published a newspaper/pamphlet thingame called Peace News.

Both organisations still exist, but are no longer directly connected.

The PPU is today one of the main promoters of the white poppy, although it (the white poppy) actually predates the PPU (and, actually, the red poppy) having been used semi-officially by various peace groups in the mid 1920s.

Anyway. The PPU was characterised by some as being appeasers of Hitler, and generally propaganists for Germany, in the period leading up to WW2.

And there does appear to be some evidence of this, with pieces printed in the Peace News written by Lord Tavistock (widely identified today as blatantly anti-Semitic) and Ben Greene being on the board of the PPU whilst also being treasurer of the short-lived far right pro-fascist party called the British People's Party in 1939. Greene was interred during the war as a fascist supporter.

[ 09. November 2015, 14:15: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

Posted by Bax (# 16572) on :

I wonder if this is a problem that arises from a protestant hobby horse, not praying the for the dead.

If you look at the history of remembrance, at the end of WW1 the government had to quickly come up with something and a wooden cenotaph was temporarily erected in Whitehall. In time this was replaced with the stone current cenotaph.

The poppy is another secular symbol of remembrance, that has now become polarized, whatever its original intention was.

Arguable all of this would have been un-necessary if Praying for the Dead and Requiem masses were legitimate. You can't hijack the mass for any political end (you can try perhaps, but you will fail) whereas secular remembrances can be co-opted by certain groups and they then become divisive.

Those who insist on not praying the the dead should see the unintended consequences of this theological nicety.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

@ Mr. Cheesy: Of course one has to remember how many people, especially from the "upper crust", were initially attracted by Hitler and/or Moseley - see, for instance, Harold Sackville-West. They were quite possibly reacting against Ramsay MacDonald and his Labour Party. Some of them must equally have been involved in the Peace Movement.

I don't think these folk really took notice of the inherent anti-Semitism - and, of course, that echelon of society may well have been passively anti-Semitic anyway (which doesn't excuse them, of course). I wonder therefore if the Peace Movement merely reflected the wider society. It would be interesting to know how much anti-Semitism may have also been present with movements on the Left, whether Labour or Communism - I'm thinking particularly of those fairly well-to-do adherents here.

I also wonder if things changed as Jewish refugees (including my parents) started arriving in Britain and could tell their stories.

[ 09. November 2015, 15:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is this just a sign that the whole narrative of our country is based on the Myth of Redemptive Violence?

I thought that was Christianity?

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Bax:

quote:

I wonder if this is a problem that arises from a protestant hobby horse, not praying the for the dead.

It never ceases to amaze me when the same people who object to the observance of All Souls are often the same people who loudly demand trumpets, great silences, prayers, readings, poems, fanfares, flags, poppies, wreaths, processions, anthems and the like for Remembrance Sunday

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Thanks, Mr Cheesy and BT. I've done a little noodling around Wikipedia and it tells a similar story. There seem to be echoes here of the thread we had a little while back in the wake of the Queen's Nazi salute scandal.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.

Precisely.

There is an excellent exposure of this mentality in C.S. Lewis's article The Dangers of National Repentance, in which he demonstrates that those young people at the time of WWII who were flaunting faux-humility by assuming British responsibility for the war were actually using "we" as a excuse to excoriate the people whom they actually took the greatest moralistic pleasure in condemning, ie past generations, particularly their parents'.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:

It never ceases to amaze me when the same people who object to the observance of All Souls are often the same people who loudly demand trumpets, great silences, prayers, readings, poems, fanfares, flags, poppies, wreaths, processions, anthems and the like for Remembrance Sunday

It's arguably not the same people at all - this reasoning is about as confused as blaming Catholicism for Santa Muerte

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I never think that I'm more virtuous when faced with these stories from our history, just that placed in the same time period, I would probably have done exactly the same.

Well, my thoughts aren't so much 'I am more virtuous than nineteenth century absentee landlords', as 'I am more virtuous than Those People Over There, because I am aware of historical British crimes and they aren't'. And I'm not saying this is the natural consequence of remembering the sins of our ancestors but it is a temptation.

quote:
Again, I don't think I am a legitimate heir to all this shit I have collected around me. It used to be said that to be born British was to have won the lottery of life, but I personally feel that my whole life is built upon a edifice hewn by my forefathers from the bedrock they did not own.

I agree, but the idea that we are the legitimate heirs is the foundation of immigration and nationality law.

[ 09. November 2015, 21:10: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

In reply to KC.
Didn't something similar happen with the teen revolution of the late 50s and early 60s ? Young people didn't want to be externally grateful to there parents for delivering them from nazi tyranny, this was combined with a general rebellion against establishment thinking.
Anti war and anti British sentiment became popular around that time, Remembrance Day looked like it might even fade into obscurity during the 70s. That was when soccer hooligans clad in Union Jack waistcoats were our main source of national representation.

The Falklands campaign revied national interest in Poppy day. Then, after 9/11, and British involvement in Afganistan the whole thing took off. I think the tension caused by the You must wear a poppy or else has given way to moderation this year thank goodness.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

So Alan. That's a Christian imperative is it? Cut the cancer out? Killing a million alone indiscriminately with power from the air in the process? And allying with an even worse teratoma to do so? And as you're there, were H&N radiation therapy for Japanese cancer?

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Christ Styles:

quote:

It's arguably not the same people at all - this reasoning is about as confused as blaming Catholicism for Santa Muerte

Why is it not the same people at all?

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by :

quote:

It's arguably not the same people at all - this reasoning is about as confused as blaming Catholicism for Santa Muerte

Why is it not the same people at all?

Because the call for ever more florid tributes is a largely secular demand.

[ 09. November 2015, 22:47: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So Alan. That's a Christian imperative is it? Cut the cancer out? Killing a million alone indiscriminately with power from the air in the process? And allying with an even worse teratoma to do so? And as you're there, were H&N radiation therapy for Japanese cancer?

There are, of course, no easy answers to those questions.

War is, of course, evil and something to be avoided. Is it something to be avoided at all costs? There were several legacies of the 1914-18 war, most pertinant to these questions are that the conditions imposed on Germany at Versailles created conditions in which extremist parties appealing to German nationalistic pride could flourish, allowing the cancer-like growth of a small organisation devoted to the ramblings of Austrian corporal into the Nazi regime of the late 1930s. Another legacy of 1914-18 was a deep reluctance to engage in another war, especially one in Europe, and "peace at any cost" resulted in several missed opportunities to stop the growth of that cancer early on. Even in 1939 after the declaration of war, French tanks started to advance in to Germany but were pulled back because of a desire to avoid escalation, in the expectation that the Nazi government didn't want another all out war in Europe any more than the French and British did and the threat of that would bring them to the negotiating table.

But, history is the past. We live in the present, and the most important thing about history is that we need to learn from it. What can we learn from the end of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th? The biggest lesson is that wars don't happen in a vacuum, that great evils grow in particular conditions that other nations have the influence to change through economic and political measures before the only way to excise those evils is armed conflict. The lessons are that the costs of war are avoidable if we want to.

1914-18 shows us the dangers of Cold War, of militarism as a "show of force", the dangers of deterrance as a policy, of fighting proxy wars to gain ground against an opponent. It's a lesson we failed to learn, how many of the wars of the second half of the 20th century and the early years of the 21st have been the result of Cold War politics? Korea and Vietnam, various wars in Africa, South and Central America, a stand-off show of force over Cuba almost lead us to nuclear exchange. The US supported resistance to Soviet occupation of Afghanistan created the Taliban, harboured Al-Qaeda and eventually lead to the war we're still engaged in there.

1939-45 (at least in the European theatre) showed us how economic oppression and injustice allows the growth of extremist movements. Yet, have we created fair trade systems that allow wealth to be more evenly distributed? Have we acted to enact justice and equality within our own nations, and sought to act justly and fairly with others? Have our foreign policies starved extemists of the injustice and oppression that they feed on?

When we stand in silence to Remember, we must not forget the lessons history teaches. We must Remember not only those who fought, those who died and those who returned forever scarred, we must Remember that those deaths, on all sides, military and civilian, should have been unnecessary if not for the policies of our own nations in relation to economic justice and militarism. And, in Remembering we must commit ourselves once more to the struggle for justice, for equality, for righteousness that we no longer permit our governments to develop massive military forces to deter aggression, that we no longer pursue foreign policy through proxy wars, that we no longer permit injustice in our own lands, that we no longer allow corporate interests to oppress the poor and deny freedom to peoples around the world. We must declare "never again", and actively pursue policies that are more likely to lead to a world in which disputes are settled before people pick up guns.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

It is rather different in Canada. Remembrance Day is always on the day itself: 11 Nov. It is secular with multi-faith representation; various Christian clergy, Jewish, Muslim, First Nations. A collection of choirs. There is a pause for 2 minutes at 11 a.m., which includes pretty near everywhere, including if you're in a store. This is a civic and provincial holiday in most provinces (not all). National and local commemorations. Schools usually hold one the day before. It approximates a civic religious ceremony in much of Canada.

I think it is very different on the Canadian prairies than what I understand of the UK and USA. If any of you ever travel here, look for the Vimy Memorial in all the small towns. On it you will see listed the names of boys/men who died in WW1. It changed everything on the prairies. Some towns had the British descended male population decimated, and we became a Ukrainian boy-Brit girl population (Ukrainian means Ukrainian, Polish, Romanian, etc)

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

I admit that I thought the claim that it's a civic holiday was incorrect and looked it up: turns out it is a stat holiday in six provinces as well as the territories, but the two most populous (and the only ones I have lived in) are not among them.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

When we stand in silence to Remember, we must not forget the lessons history teaches. We must Remember not only those who fought, those who died and those who returned forever scarred, we must Remember that those deaths, on all sides, military and civilian, should have been unnecessary if not for the policies of our own nations in relation to economic justice and militarism. And, in Remembering we must commit ourselves once more to the struggle for justice, for equality, for righteousness that we no longer permit our governments to develop massive military forces to deter aggression, that we no longer pursue foreign policy through proxy wars, that we no longer permit injustice in our own lands, that we no longer allow corporate interests to oppress the poor and deny freedom to peoples around the world. We must declare "never again", and actively pursue policies that are more likely to lead to a world in which disputes are settled before people pick up guns.

The problem is that we don't learn history in a vacuum, it is mediated by the conditions within which we learn. So it is entirely possible to look at the same history and come to completely different conclusions based on little more than social context.

This then is the problem with "Remembering", which you have unilaterally determined needs to be capitalised.

For one thing, not everything is predictable other than in hindsight. The lessons from history are not simple to apply to the present.

For another, we do not seem to do the things we know lead to peace and we continue to do the things we know continually lead to conflict.

For another, the simple history of war is that the strongest/cleverest/most resolute win. Which is once again the great lie of the Myth of Redemptive Violence.

I'd wager very few are engaging their brains to these questions during "Remebrancetide". But even those who do are not able to think beyond the context in which they live. Hence this whole meme is largely useless.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

I think it is very different on the Canadian prairies than what I understand of the UK and USA. If any of you ever travel here, look for the Vimy Memorial in all the small towns. On it you will see listed the names of boys/men who died in WW1. It changed everything on the prairies. Some towns had the British descended male population decimated, and we became a Ukrainian boy-Brit girl population (Ukrainian means Ukrainian, Polish, Romanian, etc)

That's an interesting point with regard to demographics, but "decimation" seems like an appropriate word to use in the UK about WW1 too. Many more soldiers died in WW1 (but more civilians in WW2), as is seen on war memorials in every village in the country.

Given the size of the population at the time, the effects of WW1 must still have been felt into the 1930s, and there must have been similar demographic changes with influxes of refugees and others during that period.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I think the effects must have been vast in Britain (and elsewhere). In England there are supposedly 16,000 villages (not counting towns and cities); of these only about 50 lost no-one in the Great War and are known as "Thankful Villages". The loss in some places must have been huge, especially when you remember that army units often grouped together places from a single area. This means that village "chums" would have died together in a single day.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

That's right, I've just been reading about the Accrington Pals - according to wikipedia, around 700 local men joined up to form a battalion. They were put at the front on the first day of the battle of the Somme, and there were 585 casualties, 235 deaths. Some say this happened in the first half hour of the battle.

I've no idea about the size of Accrington at the time, but that must have been a massive loss.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Chris Styles:

quote:

Because the call for ever more florid tributes is a largely secular demand.

That wouldn't be my experience. I was speaking in terms of churches and services and my experience there would tally exactly with what I stated.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Given the size of the population at the time, the effects of WW1 must still have been felt into the 1930s, and there must have been similar demographic changes with influxes of refugees and others during that period.

Many of the young men who signed up in 1939 would have watched their own fathers march off to war in 1914-18, with too many of them never coming back. Many of the political leadership would have had first hand experience of the slaughter of the previous war. It's why appeasement was so appealing, why Chamberlain was a hero coming back with his piece of paper. No one wanted to go through that all over again.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Chris Styles:

quote:

Because the call for ever more florid tributes is a largely secular demand.

That wouldn't be my experience. I was speaking in terms of churches and services and my experience there would tally exactly with what I stated.

Is that based on Ireland (either part) or the UK mainland? IME for mainland Protestants / Anglicans / Evangelicals, whatever their view of Remembrance Day, either All Souls isn't on the radar or else they mark it as a service of comfort for the bereaved.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Yes, it might be something specific to Ireland. All Souls as an observance is hotly resisted here with lots of 'Protestant' statements about not praying for the dead in a 'we don't do that' kind of reasoning (if you can call that reasoning). I just find it very odd that the same people are more often than not the very same ones who will have all manner of curious ceremonies for the dead in church come Remembrance Sunday. They sometimes argue that 'remembrance' is not praying for, but I think I can remember on my sofa on my own in front of the TV and my nagging connection in faith to the Eucharist makes my understanding of aramnesis in the context of a church service sit quite firmly in the realm of prayer.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:

That wouldn't be my experience. I was speaking in terms of churches and services and my experience there would tally exactly with what I stated.

Except that it's also a national trend in mainland Britain, and in that case it appears to down to a certain mawkish sentimentality - I doubt if the nation as a whole is influenced by a small minority of sectarians in one particular part of the UK.

Feel free to critique your local churches, but the OP on that topic seemed to be tarring protestants with the same brush, which seems to be an over-reach.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is this just a sign that the whole narrative of our country is based on the Myth of Redemptive Violence?
I thought that was Christianity?

Christianity busts the myth, exposes it, cancels it.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

As a child, living in South Central Idaho, I remember getting poppies when we contributed to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, but I do not remember if it was for Veteran's day (I think it was) or Memorial Day, since that tends to be the day when we honor those who died in service to their country.

It seems this veteran's day the push is to encourage people in the US to have a green light on as a way of thanking local veterans for their service. It is being sponsored by Walmart which is selling 25 watt green bulbs for 96 cents. When our local store put the bulbs out I was the first to buy one. They did not seem to be selling for the past week. However, yesterday I noticed quite a few had been purchased.

I am currently working part time at Walmart. Yesterday I was a greeter. I made it a point to thank those who had veteran caps for their service. Several of the vets really appreciated this.

About mid shift a 90 year old man wobbled into the store. He was very unsteady on his feet. He had a WWII Veteran's cap on. I went up to him and first offered to get him an electric cart so he could get around. He declined saying he had to go to the bathroom. I offered him my arm, which he took, and led him to the bathroom. As we walked to the bathroom, I asked him which theatre he served in. He said the Philippines. I mentioned my Dad also served in the Philippines. Once we got to the bathroom he thanked me for helping him.

I went back to my post but I kept an eye out for the old man. In a short period of time I saw him coming out of the bathroom so I went up to him again. This time I did not offer my arm, but slowly walked with him as he left the store to sit in his truck while he waited for his son to complete his shopping. As we walked he talked about his service in the Philippines. He was a rifleman, actually a scout which means he was beyond enemy lines many times.

When we got to the exit door of the store, he took my arm again. It was very windy and rainy. I did not have a coat on, but I walked him to his truck and made sure he got in the truck safely, thanking him again for his service.

As I returned to the store the son came out and thanked me for helping his dad.

Now, that is the way to remember the veterans.

Tomorrow I will be people greeter again. I plan on wearing my veteran's cap to show solidarity with my brothers and sisters who have served and are serving. I do not want to see another war again; but this side of eternity there will always be wars and rumors of wars. I know how being in a war can change a person forever. I will continue to pray for peace and will vote for those who want to promote peace, but I know we live in nasty times and understand we have to be prepared for whatever may happen.

[ 10. November 2015, 16:36: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

The banner in our church has twice as many names for WW1 dead than WW2, which approximates the proportion nationally. I had a French branch of my family entirely slaughtered in WW1. Wrong town, angry reprisal seeking Germans. I had German branch of my family with 4 of 5 families of my cousins killed completely by American carpet bombing. The continental causalities were higher for both wars I should think. I am thankful than of my Canadian family no-one died in WW2, though wounded. WW1 is 2 men.

Remembrance Day is definitely not a veterans day, except as we consider the perils and death together. This loss of focus, from posts above, presents problems, and I cannot help to feel your pain and upset with it. On Remembrance Day we remember that war is great, great evil, even as a war veteran priest discussed at church on Sunday during an extra Remembrance Day children's time. No glory.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I found myself thinking about the long shadow of WWI which stretched far further than the 1930's.

At school, we laughed (appallingly) about all the single women who taught us. (They were rather weird. Some of them we didn't notice.) My father's cousins never married, and they lived single into the 70s.

A friend's mother has never been very comfortable with her life. Her father died when she was ten, a long term result of being gassed in the trenches. Her husband had to cope with the aftermath of being in Bomber Command, seeing all his fellows failing to return, and she could not support him. He left her. She herself had had to work in London through the Blitz. As WWII was due to WWI, that's part of the shadow. My friend has to cope with the blight on his life of being compelled to be in the place of his father.

My cousins are of the age that would have expected to find partners in the generation that would have been born in WWII, except they weren't. Another tranche of the single.

I remember one of the school parents whose husband left her. He had been brought up during the war, with his father away. He had become like one of the Chinese little emperors, expecting her to treat him as his mother had treated him during those years, and he had not had the usual model of family life.

It isn't over yet. And it hasn't been just the young men my grandfather told me about, who I used to visualise marching down the Road of Remembrance at Folkestone to the specially built pier to embark towards the sound of the guns they could already hear, who would never return. Or the men who walked about the St Dunstan's Home near Brighton, blinded during their service. Or the other wounded.

Those left behind have need of remembrance, too.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

That is very moving, thank you.

My own story is somewhat different: my parents fled Nazism and came to Britain in 1938, my father served within the Pioneer Corps of the British Army.

But his family took part in the Great Wart on the German side, at the Russian Front. The house he lived in as a child wasn't far away from the front line at the beginning of the War.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Thank you for your response.

Dad was in the Pioneer Corps at first, as a conscientious objector. Mostly, as far as I can make out, clearing up bomb damage, getting involved in training engineers, and, when they found out he was training to be an accountant, organising pay and railway warrants.

We never ate Hartleys products, because when they were working on clearing up their factory, the MD would not let them use the canteen, because he objected to conscientious objectors.

When he realised that his family in Brighton was in the front line, and the war was different from the one he had objected to, Dad transferred to the Artillery, but never had to do very much. I still have an army issue protractor for calculating map details.

He was being readied to go to the East when the bombs fell on Japan.

[ 10. November 2015, 18:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Well said, graciously said, Alan. And Gramps49 - beautiful. And leo (and I don't say that often!). And Penny S. And all.

I'll keep my powder dry for now Alan. I could counter, but it would be too ... ruthless. Later.

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is this just a sign that the whole narrative of our country is based on the Myth of Redemptive Violence?
I thought that was Christianity?
Christianity busts the myth, exposes it, cancels it.

Now there's a thread I've been thinking about kicking off for a while...

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

I'm probably the last of my family to be able to write this. My great-grandfather (my mother's mother's father) enlisted in 1916 (Library & Archives Canada put his attestation paper online a few years ago).

He was at Vimy and Passchendaele. A bit later he suffered a Mustard Gas attack where his respirator was compromised by a bullet. He survived, but his health was ruined for the rest of his life. He died of pneumonia in 1956.

I'm 33, so I never knew him, but I knew my great-grandmother who was widowed for 40 years; she died in 1994 and I certainly knew her. It wasn't kind what fate dealt to her, her widowhood wasn't easy either financially or emotionally.

I am probably the last who will ever have seen the family effects of the First World War.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Poppies have become highly political in the UK it seems. Not the selling of them, but the wearing of them.

No such problem is suffered in Australia.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

My pharmacist grandfather, a militiaman in the Queen's Own Rifles under Sir Henry Pellatt, ended up at the first gas attack near Ypres having his colleagues relieve themselves into handkerchiefs as impromptu gas masks. When his superiors noted his degree, he ended up training men in the use of gas masks, including a year of training US troops in Arkansas and Texas in Jim Crow days.

Out of the initial battalion heading off in 1914, he was one of the remaining 200 who marched back into Toronto in 1936. A drunk driver drove into the Remembrance Day parade in 1936 and killed him.

My great-uncle, famous in Arnprior for stealing an OPP car in 1942 to learn how to drive, was given a choice by the magistrate to either affiliate himself with the Lanark & Renfrew Scottish or take up residence in a local correctional institution-- he ended up taking permanent residence on the Scheldt delta. Almost half a century later I saw my grandmother standing on the porch at her house in Renfrew looking at the Bonnechere River and saying, very softly, "O Billy..."

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :

We seem to have this debate every year.

My father in law fought in WWII but as his country was annexed by Russia, he was considered persona non grata by the Legion, which was long a hot bed of us vs. them thinking.

I won't wear a poppy for that reason, among others.

As many of us have noted, the recently installed Defence Minister would not have been able to enter a Legion Hall a couple of decades ago.

If the money from the poppy went to a Veteran's organization other then the Legion, like support for the Sunnybrook Veteran's hospital, or a Veteran's mental health effort, I'd wear one.

War is shit. It still is. Just ask the people working in the largest morgue in the world down in Delaware. I had a short conversation with a pilot flying out of there. He was fine as he was always in the cockpit. But he went through crew members a lot as they were in the back with the coffins.

I'm glad we take time to remember those who died and how crappy war is.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Poppies have become highly political in the UK it seems. Not the selling of them, but the wearing of them.

No such problem is suffered in Australia.

I'm putting this to the test. I've donated, but I'm not wearing one, and today is Remembrance Day. Remembrance is about more than a plastic and paper symbol that can be purchased for a few pence.

Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :

Ever since the Enniskillen bombing I have contributed to the Royal British Legion's Republic of Ireland branch - but living as I do now in Donegal near the border I can't wear the Poppy as it would be perceived, wrongly, as a symbol of Loyalism. I was in Scotland for a few days last week and happily wore the Scottish Poppy but once I got back to Belfast International I felt I had to take it off before I got on the bus to Derry.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Poppies have become highly political in the UK it seems. Not the selling of them, but the wearing of them.

Yes. Yet all they really are is a badge saying, "I donated to the British Legion" - just like wearing a little Lifeboat or World Wildlife sticker if you've donated to those.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Thanks all for recollections of the activities of your relatives. I was particularly interested to read about the conscientious objectors in the Pioneer Corps.

I read a number of accounts of people who failed to persuade the military tribunal that they were "absolutist" pacifists, who were then drafted into the Pioneer Corps. Often as the bombing was getting closer to their own relatives, they volunteered for more dangerous duties - including in the bomb disposal squads.

Quite a number also eventually enlisted in Parachute Field Ambulance, which was particularly dangerous as they were dropped into conflict alongside paratroopers to set up field hospitals.

These repeatedly captured by Germans as the battle waged on around them, but they just continued with their lifesaving operations - of soldiers from both sides.

Posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter (# 17193) on :

On a personal note, I used to be a poppy wearer, on the grounds that it meant whatever the wearer chose it to mean (e.g. remembrance of one's own relatives who had been killed in the wars). Then this happened:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/nov/09/edl-roof-top-fifa-poppy

At that point, I decided that pressure to wear or display the poppy had gone too far - I took the poppy off my coat that day and have not worn one since. I do not imagine that I will be persuaded to wear one again. I deplore the right-wing appropriation of the poppy as a political symbol, which is still continuing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-3476041

I do not believe the poppy can be reclaimed purely as a symbol of remembrance - at least, not for a long time to come.

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

I couldn't open your second link, QED, but the first one is depressing.

Possible tangent: has anyone come across black poppies this year? Some of our congo started wearing them. They are to point out the numbers of black soldiers who fought and died, but my feeling is that they create further divisions. The red poppy should commemorate *all* who died, and if people don't know about the black regiments then education is needed.

Posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter (# 17193) on :

Not sure what happened there.
Let's try again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-34760414

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

Ah! that worked - thanks....

...and another rather depressing article [Frown]

[ 11. November 2015, 10:40: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Why am I not surprised that Britain First pulled such a stunt? What a truly despicable group of people. [Mad]

Who were they supposedly protecting those cadets from? The biggest threat is from BF.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

And, one of those thugs couldn't even be bothered to wear a poppy himself. Idiot.

Posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter (# 17193) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Creswell:
And, one of those thugs couldn't even be bothered to wear a poppy himself. Idiot.

To be fair, the white spot on his chest may be light reflecting off a metal poppy pin. However, I've never quite understood the point of those - surely you can dust them off each year without giving a further donation to the Poppy Appeal?

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

I've got one with "1915 - 2015" on it - can't really use that one again.

Also, the pin badges don't get crushed / disintegrate in the rain.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Creswell:
And, one of those thugs couldn't even be bothered to wear a poppy himself. Idiot.
To be fair, the white spot on his chest may be light reflecting off a metal poppy pin.

I'm not inclined to be fair to a bunch of Nazis masquerading as "decent British people". Especially when they try to hijack the Poppy Appeal, and drag kids into their evil. It does more to dishonour those who died fighting the Nazis in 1939-45 than white poppies, no poppies, or not singing a hymn to a deity you don't believe in for the well being of a monarch you don't believe has any right to rule.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Has anyone come across black poppies this year? Some of our congo started wearing them. They are to point out the numbers of black soldiers who fought and died, but my feeling is that they create further divisions. The red poppy should commemorate *all* who died, and if people don't know about the black regiments then education is needed.

Interesting. I've just googled the black poppy. I found two websites which each gave a somewhat different take on what the black poppy is for.

These days, there's a degree of ambivalence about red poppies for a variety of reasons. Some wear them, some don't. Ethnic minorities are less likely to wear them.

I think it should be a matter of choice above all, and moreover, I don't think a poppy of any colour could foster unity in a pluralistic and multicultural nation like ours. Indeed, it could be said that the red poppy accentuates the divisions, rather than fostering unity. That being the case, only people like politicians and TV personalities who have to wear red poppies for career reasons should feel obliged to do so. The rest of us should go our own way and wear whatever kind of poppy we want, or none at all, for whatever personal reasons.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Only people like politicians and TV personalities who have to wear red poppies for career reasons should feel obliged to do so.

I disagree. No-one should feel obliged to, irrespective of status, especially if it's merely for "career reasons".

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

What I mean is, people always do what they have to to get on in life, and people in public life rely on good PR to keep their lucrative jobs. That's not going to change, although the PR advantage of wearing a red poppy may well do so as the culture develops.

Ordinary people don't and shouldn't have to face the same level of scrutiny. They don't have to be people-pleasers.

[ 11. November 2015, 12:30: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

Well, that is interesting, Svitlana. The ones at my church were worn mostly by some of our West Indian people (though one or two white British people did too) and the poppy was the one produced by blackpoppyrose.org. I didn't know about the black poppies from Stop the War Coalition (my ignorance, perhaps).

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I've got one with "1915 - 2015" on it - can't really use that one again.

Also, the pin badges don't get crushed / disintegrate in the rain.

I'm told by friends connected with the British Legion that there will be one produced every year (with the dates) to 2018.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Poppy fascism is ridiculous. There is no meaning in a symbol that is a de facto requirement.
Haig. A man who created a private charity whilst living on a public stipend created so he could "live as befits a peer". Created for the benefit of people who bravely fought, by a man as responsible for their injury as the enemy in a war that had no justification.
The poppy. An American symbol, required in Britain whilst largely forgotten* in the country of its origin.

I shall be happy when war is so distant a symbol is needed to remember it.

*To my knowledge, anyway.

Posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter (# 17193) on :

quote:

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm not inclined to be fair to a bunch of Nazis masquerading as "decent British people". Especially when they try to hijack the Poppy Appeal, and drag kids into their evil. It does more to dishonour those who died fighting the Nazis in 1939-45 than white poppies, no poppies, or not singing a hymn to a deity you don't believe in for the well being of a monarch you don't believe has any right to rule.

You put it a good deal better than I can.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I live near Washington DC. No poppies visible here. People sport American flag pins (de regeur if you are running for office) and flags get stuck onto median strips. Today I am sporting a long-sleeved tee shirt vividly adorned with US Army emblems. No one has remarked on it.
Veterans are chiefly honored by free appetizers or desserts, at restaurant chains. If they offer free drinks they are mobbed.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

That doesn't really honour the dead.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
That doesn't really honour the dead.

In the US, Veteran's Day isn't really about honouring the dead. That role is saved for Memorial Day, which has its origins in the US civil war.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Yes -- Memorial Day used to be Decoration Day, the day in late spring to go out and tidy up the graves. It is still a big occasion in American cemeteries. Veterans Day seems to be honoring living military persons, whether retired or active duty. In addition to the freebies on offer there are many full-paged ads in the local paper, saying things like "Thank You For Serving." Clearly targeting live persons and not the deceased.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I couldn't open your second link, QED, but the first one is depressing.

Possible tangent: has anyone come across black poppies this year? Some of our congo started wearing them. They are to point out the numbers of black soldiers who fought and died, but my feeling is that they create further divisions. The red poppy should commemorate *all* who died, and if people don't know about the black regiments then education is needed.

I've only just learned about the black poppy - it remembers the war dead of both sides, includoing civillians.

It's all very well for you to say what the red poppy 'should' commemmorate but the fact is that the beritish legion has the patent on red poppies and instsits that they are for British military dead only - not widows, not civillians etc.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I'd like to wear a white poppy, but the trouble is that the donations made to buy them don't seem to go to anything particularly meaningful. The RBL can point to the actual support they've given to human beings.

What the British legion try to hide is their links and sponsorship deals weith the arms trade and corrupt regimes. [URL= http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/sites/ekklesia.co.uk/files/my_name_is_legion-web.pdf]These links are uncovered here.[/URL]

Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
What I mean is, people always do what they have to to get on in life, and people in public life rely on good PR to keep their lucrative jobs. That's not going to change, although the PR advantage of wearing a red poppy may well do so as the culture develops.

Ordinary people don't and shouldn't have to face the same level of scrutiny. They don't have to be people-pleasers.

Actually, ordinary people who work in customer facing roles can be made to wear red poppies by their employers,

Posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter (# 17193) on :

quote:

Originally posted by Kitten:
Actually, ordinary people who work in customer facing roles can be made to wear red poppies by their employers

Seriously?! I have heard of employers making employees remove poppies, but never forcing them to be worn. Are we talking about the UK here? I would have thought that one could decline to wear one for religious reasons, which would put the employer in trouble if they then attempted to force the employee to wear a poppy.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Actually, ordinary people who work in customer facing roles can be made to wear red poppies by their employers,

And shouldn't be.

Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter:

quote:

Originally posted by Kitten:
Actually, ordinary people who work in customer facing roles can be made to wear red poppies by their employers

Seriously?! I have heard of employers making employees remove poppies, but never forcing them to be worn. Are we talking about the UK here? I would have thought that one could decline to wear one for religious reasons, which would put the employer in trouble if they then attempted to force the employee to wear a poppy.

Yes, we are talking about the UK, have seen this in the bar and restaurant trade, among others.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Well, all four of us in the office today went along to the Cenotaph for 11 am. One was wearing a poppy, three weren't.

I reckon around half the people at the Cenotaph that I could see were wearing poppies.

M.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

It's all very well for you to say what the red poppy 'should' commemmorate but the fact is that the beritish legion has the patent on red poppies and instsits that they are for British military dead only - not widows, not civillians etc.

Source? That's not what the British Legion's website says.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

And note what they say: "Wearing a poppy is a personal choice and reflects individual and personal memories. It is not compulsory but is greatly appreciated by those it helps – our beneficiaries: those currently serving in our Armed Forces, veterans, and their families and dependants".

So there is no place for Poppy Fascism - it's official!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

It's all very well for you to say what the red poppy 'should' commemmorate but the fact is that the beritish legion has the patent on red poppies and instsits that they are for British military dead only - not widows, not civillians etc.
Source? That's not what the British Legion's website says.

Yes it does specific type of Remembrance connected to the British Armed Forces

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Interesting ideas expressed......for my part I've always treated Remembrance as a day to remember all those who have died in conflict - to be sure that includes the military but also civilians and for that matter military on the 'other side' many of whom would have been conscripts

Is there a bit of overkill here? ( an unfortunate choice of words I suppose) In the UK we now have two Remembrance Days - the Sunday and the 11th November, not to mention the wearing of poppies from about 2 weeks either side! and I'm not terribly keen on seeing poppies on any kind of vestment or particularly happy about the practice in many churches of draping flags over the altar at civic services......

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I agree totally, Stephen. I most certainly dislike the having of two "Silences" on different days ... and deplore even more the practice of including them at football matches etc. during the Remembrance weekend.

I also dislike the BBC covering the Silences as "News" on their bulletins ... they're not news, they happen every year and are - deliberately - full of "nothing"!

[ 12. November 2015, 08:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

It's all very well for you to say what the red poppy 'should' commemmorate but the fact is that the beritish legion has the patent on red poppies and instsits that they are for British military dead only - not widows, not civillians etc.
Source? That's not what the British Legion's website says.
Yes it does specific type of Remembrance connected to the British Armed Forces

Thank you for that. It will be useful the next time a poppy fascist objects to the White poppy on the grounds that "the red one covers all that".

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

There appears to be a difference between the scope of the poppy and that of the services of rememberance held around the country, including that at the Cenotaph which includes many from armed forces elsewhere in the Commonwealth plus many other bodies that were and are not part of the armed forces, such as the Land Army and the (Boy) Scouts.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes it does specific type of Remembrance connected to the British Armed Forces

OK, I see where you're coming from, but that's not a page about the significance of the poppy. The page about poppies says: 'Wearing a poppy is a personal choice and reflects individual and personal memories.'

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

As I quoted above.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Poppy count at the National War Memorial in Ottawa just over half wore poppies. It was not quite as crowded as last year. There were lots of south asian-origin teenagers & university students, presumably to see the new Defence Minister.

With the thread in mind, I kept my eyes open for a white poppy over the past few days and saw none. Even tattooed hipsters with their legionnaire beards were wearing red poppies.

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