quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
It is unlikely to attract vegetarians, coeliacs, slimmers, Muslims or Jews ...

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Or people who wish to keep the eucharistic fast.
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Or student group have bacon butties before the service. Because free food is a reason to get up in the morning, and it builds community and relationship which is another reason to get up and go to church. It works. Not sure the rest of the church gas the same motivators though.
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Won't people just sleep through sermon and all, tummy nicely filled with bacony goodies? I know I might be tempted!
 

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Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 
Our church had bacon sandwiches after the service. But this was to encourage people to stay and chat.

It involves a lot more work than coffee, that's for sure.

I think it is more appealing to student/singles than to anyone who might have planned an actual dinner.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
On one level I think it's tawdry, tacky and smacks of desperation.

On another level, I wonder what I'm doing to 'get people in' (ie. nothing or next to ...) and what I'd suggest as an alternative that would be the antithesis of tawdriness and tack?

Our parish church has - quite successfully - been running a 'Big Breakfast' thing on a Monday morning, selling cheap bacon and egg breakfasts.

The person who started it up reckoned that they did so in response to a 'dream' they had one night - which they took to be some kind of divine guidance (too many bacon butties the night before?) ...

I confess to being completely cynical about the whole enterprise (what a surprise ...) but ... six months or so on I find that some of the people who have attended regularly (and most people who have are already on the 'periphery' of church or known to church people in some way) are now on Alpha courses or attending church for the first time ...

So, on a pragmatic level, it can and does 'work'.

The dilemma I then have is whether we should be principled or pragmatic ... surely another both/and thing ...

The reality is that very few people are likely to darken the doors of our churches spontaneously or on a whim ... there has to be some kind of community element or contact that can be built on.

I have less of an issue with a Monday morning Big Breakfast 'do' than I have with serving bacon butties before Sunday morning services ... the latter smacks a bit too much of 'rice-Christianity' to me ... I mean, even the most hardened vegan will melt at the smell of bacon butties in the morning ...
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
It is unlikely to attract vegetarians, coeliacs, slimmers, Muslims or Jews ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
We've sometimes had bacon butties before a family service. We are fortunate to have a large church hall with a good sized kitchen, and also to have a church warden who loves cooking. He is already thinking about a community Christmas dinner for this year. He and our treasurer, who also loves cooking, are already planning the menu for our "Seder"on Maundy Thursday.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
We've sometimes had bacon butties before a family service. We are fortunate to have a large church hall with a good sized kitchen, and also to have a church warden who loves cooking. He is already thinking about a community Christmas dinner for this year. He and our treasurer, who also loves cooking, are already planning the menu for our "Seder"on Maundy Thursday.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
We've sometimes had bacon butties before a family service. We are fortunate to have a large church hall with a good sized kitchen, and also to have a church warden who loves cooking. He is already thinking about a community Christmas dinner for this year. He and our treasurer, who also loves cooking, are already planning the menu for our "Seder"on Maundy Thursday.

---

Please don't have a Seder - here is why. Unless it is led by an actual rabbi it is deeply insensitive to actual Jewish people.

---

Bugger insensitivity to Jewish people -well, not really, but that's just the icing on the cake- it wouldn't matter if the Jews were indifferent to it or amused by it- a good enough reason not to is that it's a bit of silly sodding about ill-informed attempt to be , y'know, multicultural (and look, cool, I can be even more multicultural and wear my African stole and include some prayers which we are pretty sure are Native American or are they Maori, well, never mind...).
I mean, it's not as if we, as Christians, haven't got traditional ceremonies of our own for Maundy Thursday, is it?
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
I didn't realise that bacon sandwiches were a thing in 'food evangelism'. Why bacon? As has already been said, for many people it would be stumbling block for health or religious reasons. Providing alternatives might not prevent some potential participants from feeling uneasy.

I suppose the organisers have a particular target group in mind here, broad but certainly limited. That's probably a good thing in a way, because no church or Christian group can appeal to everyone. Might as well make that clear early on.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Bacon butties a stumbling block for health reasons for some, possibly. For reasons of lifestyle choice for others. But for religious reasons? Unless you were making a point of wanting to try to attract Muslims and Jews to your Church, I'd have thought that would be pretty low down your list of worries.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
I can't help wondring whether cholesterol-lowering statins are suggested along with the butties!!
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
If you live in an area where there are lots of Muslims then it's not irrelevant. I know of two local churches which see their ministry as involving Muslims. This makes a lot of sense in their environment. A CU at a uni with a growing international or multicultural British intake might also find such considerations relevant to their evangelistic strategy.

In another setting, though, the aim may be to focus on the 'typical' student, or the indigenous, ordinary local person who isn't too bothered about being healthy so long as they're fed.

I write as someone who enjoys bacon, but it's obviously not the most culturally versatile, user-friendly food....
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Have we given up on talking about our own faith and religious beliefs these days? Have we abandoned the whole concept of inviting our friends and family along to our church services, having lunch with them, chatting through the experience and answering any questions they might have? Are we really so uncomfortable or perhaps disillusioned with our own faith that we have to resort to the tactics of the consumer marketing hook?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Food has long been part of Christian celebration ... think of the Moravian 'love-feasts' or go to any Orthodox Easter Vigil and see the goodies that await the faithful after the Lenten Fast ...

What bothers me about the way so much of this sort of thing is done these days is the sheer crassness of it.

An Anglo-Catholic priest of my acquaintance was mortified at a Deanery gathering a wee while back when all the delegates pigged out on lemon drizzle cake and copious amounts of tea and coffee before celebrating the Eucharist ...

It clearly hadn't occurred to them that someone of his background and persuasion was likely to be offended by that.
 

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Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Have we given up on talking about our own faith and religious beliefs these days? Have we abandoned the whole concept of inviting our friends and family along to our church services, having lunch with them, chatting through the experience and answering any questions they might have? Are we really so uncomfortable or perhaps disillusioned with our own faith that we have to resort to the tactics of the consumer marketing hook?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
By all means do bacon butties and tea or coffee, but why on Sunday? Do it as a service for people on the way to work in the morning, or as part of a "drop-in" centre for those who aren't working.

If nothing else, it shows that church is there seven days a week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Wasn't breakfast (and discussion) after the service part of the original Parish Communion movement?
But afterwards rather than before, yes, I think, if it's Communion. Or even if not: you need time to digest!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How about meeting people 'through' traditions?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
By all means do bacon butties and tea or coffee, but why on Sunday? Do it as a service for people on the way to work in the morning, or as part of a "drop-in" centre for those who aren't working.

If nothing else, it shows that church is there seven days a week.

---

It's also the best way I could think of, barring coming right out and saying it out loud, of saying, "church isn't for men." Just Hausfraus and the independently wealthy.

---

Or the out-of-work.

A local ELCA church, situated next to a very blue collar, car-service oriented area, offers free lunch every Wednesday to the local mechanics and salesmen and car wash attendants, as well as anyone who wants to join them. The church is right on the border between a fairly cushy residential area and a hardscrabble lower income area-- so they also get the, um, "hausfraus" as well as the single moms on welfare. The church membership, as a result of this really brilliant cross-- class outreach endeavor, is about as eclectic as I have ever seen.

(They also are right across the street from the diviest dive bar in the county, and I suggested once it would be a great venue for a pub church. )
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
For those who were short of food, the early Eucharistic Feasts must have had a similar appeal (no teeny wafer and sip of wine for them).

I must admit, when I spent several months in London, the midweek Eucharists - with coffee and chocolate bars afterwards - were rather appealing. Especially as I was, at the time, on a very tight budget...
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Remember the chaplains rounding people up for breakfast after Sunday morning Communion in the college chapel in my undergraduate days- always boiled eggs (usually eaten using torn-out sections of the carton for an eggcup), tea/coffee, toast, Golden Shred marmalade.
We do now have one or two people who regularly come in just for the coffee (and perhaps a loaf if there's one going spare) after Communion at our place on Sunday mornings. One of them usually asks for a blessing too, although he rarely if ever attends the service. They're welcome and we expect to see them.

[ 01. January 2016, 20:05: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
What's the attraction of eating sandwiches filled with bacon? (I've never heard the term butties before). I can't imagine anything much worse than bacon before a sung eucharist. I'm afraid I can't understand how a bacon sandwich would bring people to church and find the whole idea quite bizarre.
 

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Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
What's the attraction of eating sandwiches filled with bacon? (I've never heard the term butties before). I can't imagine anything much worse than bacon before a sung eucharist. I'm afraid I can't understand how a bacon sandwich would bring people to church and find the whole idea quite bizarre.

---

quote:

---

I appreciate that the loaves and fishes miracle didn't involve bacon, but I like to believe that that is because Jesus didn't want to offend his good jewish mother.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
We've sometimes had bacon butties before a family service. We are fortunate to have a large church hall with a good sized kitchen, and also to have a church warden who loves cooking. He is already thinking about a community Christmas dinner for this year. He and our treasurer, who also loves cooking, are already planning the menu for our "Seder"on Maundy Thursday.

---

Please don't have a Seder - here is why. Unless it is led by an actual rabbi it is deeply insensitive to actual Jewish people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

As well as the apparent ignorance of a few millennia of Xn practice, I always thought that it would be more practical to have people sharing food and talking after a service than before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Knopwood:
Ahh, so we're talking about something like this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
What's the attraction of eating sandwiches filled with bacon? (I've never heard the term butties before). I can't imagine anything much worse than bacon before a sung eucharist. I'm afraid I can't understand how a bacon sandwich would bring people to church and find the whole idea quite bizarre.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Our Church has started giving bacon sandwiches before the service to encourage people in.

What do you think of this and other gimmicks to 'get people in'?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Our Church has started giving bacon sandwiches before the service to encourage people in.

What do you think of this and other gimmicks to 'get people in'?

---

This kind of approach really grates on me, probably because I'm a grumpy young woman so I'm sorry it's really not personal. I tend to think of truth as something so important that people will be drawn to it and seek it out for its own sake. I am allergic to attempts however well meaning to bribe me or try and dress up Christianity as something trendy and hip when it really isn't. When I say that I'm not saying it's fuddy duddy or irrelevant I'm saying that it has the potential to do something awesome with this world even if I don't believe in it and don't really think it's done much good overall in recent times. If it's supposed to be counter-cultural and the ultimate life changing truth about the universe and my eternal soul I shouldn't need to be offered a Bacon Buttie to want to know more about it.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Mudfrog might be surprised to hear me agree with him to an extent on the sacramental aspect - in it's 'original' sense ... but probably not at all surprised if I introduced a few caveats alongside that ...

Whatever the case, though, the key word for me in the OP - and it's an aspect that both Macrina and Fletcher Christian have picked up on - is the term 'gimmicks'.

I have no issue with bacon butties in and of themselves, nor in churches offering hospitality or 'entertainment' in some way ...

Whatever our tradition or Tradition, most of us will do that in some form or other. Heck, I've heard that Greek Orthodox parishes in the US often use Greek 'cultural days' and festivals - with Greek food, dancing and so on ... as a form of outreach to their neighbours - even if it's simply to make them aware that they exist or to celebrate cultural diversity in some way.

No - the problem I have with any of this is if it's used in a 'gimmicky' kind of way.

As Mudfrog's contributed here, I hope he won't mind my citing the Salvation Army in this context ...

On one level, much of what Booth and his followers were doing in the late 19th century was pretty 'gimmicky' and they had a fair bit of stick for it ...

I'd suggest though, that it went 'deeper' than that (otherwise the Salvation Army mightn't have gained as much traction) and that whilst some of the more obviously 'gimmicky' aspects receded over time, the SA gradually developed ways of operating that arose quite naturally and 'authentically' from the communities they served.

So theirs was a case of opportunistic religious entrepreneurialism on the one hand - combined with something that struck a chord on a deeper level.

Plus, of course, the SA put their knees and their hands where their mouths were by scrubbing, cleaning, campaigning against social evils and so on ...

Now, I'm not suggesting that in all 'gimmicky' instances today there isn't something very real and authentic going on. With our parish church here the Big Breakfast thing - however much it's couched in super-spiritual language that sets my teeth on edge - has developed out of a very worthy and useful Job Club which helps long-term unemployed ... and has done so with some notable successes.

On one level it worries me that those who are drawn into the community that has developed around the Big Breakfast and the follow-up Alpha courses (the Big Breakfast is meant - on one level - to feed into the latter) are vulnerable people ... with low self-esteem or mental health problems.

These people can easily be manipulated and influenced in a highly-charged pietistic environment ...

However, for all my qualms, I can see that these people are benefiting in some way - they're being taken seriously, they're being valued ...

Are they being treated as real people rather than cannon-fodder for evangelical conversion? I think so ...

I find myself ambivalent, though, I must confess.

But context is everything ...

Nevertheless, I'm with Fletcher Christian in feeling some weariness with Messy This and Dumbed-Down That, with cakes and buns and three-legged races down church aisles (as my brother has seen, even in a so-called 'traditional' service) ...

Perhaps, as with most other things, there'll be an equilibrium established at some point ... but I must admit, I avoid anything labelled as a 'family service' or where there's likely to be puppets, balloons or ra-ra-rah.

Bah, humbug ...
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(Crosspost-- referring to Macrina ) I guess that is something that needs explaining for me-- is it the serving of breakfast that is what people are calling "trendy"? Because I thought the butties themselves were pretty much traditional snack items.

As fot the idea of using food to bribe people-- I too, dislike agenda based bread breaking. Kyzyl rightly introduced the word " hospitality", as is proper-- if you are going to give food, just give it, and let God worry about the spiritual dividends.

Both of the churches I mentioned have their meals in an attempt to serve the community-- the fact that connections are made is simply the result of people treating each other like people. The first church did seem to have attracted locals into worship.The second church I talked about had only two dozen or so actual congregants; the influx at pancake time didn't result in a change in membership, but did reflect the kind of importance the church had to the community at large.

[ 02. January 2016, 09:56: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :
 
For me, the difference between a genuine innovation and a gimmick is in its origin and motivation. An innovation meets a need; a gimmick is just thrown out there as a demonstration that the people doing it are doing something new and/or are as "with it" as that lot next door or over the road.

I'm not saying that there has to be an outcry for bacon butties in order for them to avoid condemnation as a gimmick. I think I'm saying that, if they aren't achieving their presumed aim of establishing a connection with people who would not otherwise cross the threshold of the church, then something else is tried.

To go back to the point about fasting communion, however, innovations don't cause violence to the traditions of the community from which they are reaching out. Gimmicks can, because they are imposed on that community and its existing patterns rather than emerging from it and being offered from within it.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yep - you've expressed the point I was trying to make more effectively than I did, ThunderBunk.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Llandaff Cathedral's early service ends with breakfast items, rather than just coffee and biscuits. I suspect it's not to get people in per se, but to give frazzled parents a reason to get to church in time for a 9am start, rather than still be sorting out breakfast at home. By 10am the kids are pretty hungry.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Isn't "butty" a regional term? Don't think I've ever heard them called that round here. Boringly, "sandwich" is the usual term.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, it is a regional term but it's spread across much of the UK in recent years - I suspect because of its alliterative quality with the two 'b's.

So you'll hear 'bacon butty' used in places where you'd never hear of a 'cheese butty' or a 'ham butty'.

Besides, Boogie, author of the OP is from the North West which is where the term 'butty' is quite standard for a sandwich.
 

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Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
DON'T SAY THAT!

You'll stir up the Ship's ancient feud about how they are actually barms ...
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I asked about this years ago-- the word came up in a Roddy Doyle book I was reading-- and was solemnly told by someone or other that a real butty needed the heels of a bread loaf and actual butter to be a proper butty.

(Ahem) I can see conversations of this nature fostering lively interactions at a community breakfast...
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
What's the heel of a loaf? Is it a crust?

IMHO a bacon butty can be made with two slices of bread, but round here, the bacon preferably comes in a bap. I agree that it should have butter.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Heel= crusty end of a sliced loaf. Two to each loaf. But this is turning into the tangent that ate Tokyo.
 

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Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
Being a Coventrian, I am sad that the alliteration of bacon batches didn't take off like bacon butties did....

But ThunderBunk and Gamaliel have expressed things well. To use CUs (Christian Unions) as examples, using bacon sandwiches or text a toastie as cannon fodder for conversion works about as well as giving people copies of a Gospel book with no attempt to disciple or teach people as to what the significance of the words within that Gospel are. Also, giving the impression that God hates coeliacs! On the other hand, one of the nicest CUs I've visited had a group of local church elders and clergy who hosted students for lunch and became spiritual family for students far from home, because it was genuine outreach and not a gimmick.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
It occurs to me that, in some church circles, "outreach" has stopped meaning " reaching out" and now means "reeling in"...
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It occurs to me that, in some church circles, "outreach" has stopped meaning " reaching out" and now means "reeling in"...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Heel= crusty end of a sliced loaf. Two to each loaf. But this is turning into the tangent that ate Tokyo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Llandaff Cathedral's early service ends with breakfast items, rather than just coffee and biscuits. I suspect it's not to get people in per se, but to give frazzled parents a reason to get to church in time for a 9am start, rather than still be sorting out breakfast at home. By 10am the kids are pretty hungry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What if rather than a gimmick to get people in, the eating together at the start were considered part of what Christianity is about, or at least symbolic thereof - you know, creating a community of people?

---

Stop it, heathen. Next you'll be saying that the Kingdom of God is like a great celebratory feast.

Saying things like that is enough to one strung up, you know.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, yes, Karl ... it could very well be that ... but even a worthy attempt of that kind could become gimmicky.

When does a 'gimmick' become something 'authentic' and part of the 'warp and woof' of what it means to be a community?

Time will tell ...
 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
Authentic could be if there was a movement within the congregation that they didn't do enough things as a community, such as eating meals together, and something like a pre-service breakfast is organised to meet that need.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well yes, as in something that arises organically from within the congregation in response to a felt or identified need ...

Rather than, 'Let's lay on bacon butties because it seems to be the latest trendy, seeker-friendly thing to do and because it takes a lot less effort than actually thinking about what we are doing and why ...'

Which seems to be what is driving some of this sort of agenda at the moment ... of perhaps I'm just cynical ...


 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
Cynicism isn't always misplaced.

But, on the very limited information available we can't really comment on the specifics. Personally I prefer to err on the generous rather than cynical side.
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
I don't think we have to sneer when churches "organically" attempt to increase the community feel of their congregations.

In the experience of church I mentioned above, this was most definitely led by members of the congregation for members of the congregation. Visitors wandering in (not very often given the time of day) were given breakfast like everyone else - including the odd homeless person looking for a bit of warmth for a couple of hours.

For some reason this always seemed to me to be more appropriate than when drunks would turn up for free coffee after services (intended to be for the congregation).

The former seemed to be part of the way the thing was run, the latter just seemed to be taking advantage. But then I suppose one could also say that church is supposed to be a place where drunk people take advantage of free coffee.. or something.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Alan Cresswell ... spoilsport ...

Seriously, I can't comment on the example in the OP because I don't know the church nor the community it serves.

In general terms though, a few of us here, Fletcher Christian included, have picked up on a sense of unease at initiatives that could be considered gimmicky - or even exploitative.

I'd put it no stronger than that.

I certainly wouldn't lay down a carte-blanche cynical reaction ... I've not responded cynically to Kelly Alves's examples from inner-city areas in the US, for instance.

I mean ... I'm not THAT cynical ...

But I do reserve the right to be a tad suspicious of copy-cat initiatives by churches who might see this sort of thing as the 'next big thing' ...

I've lived through enough of those to develop a crust of cynicism to a certain extent ...
 

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Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
The Church (or, parts thereof) does seem to take what is an organic, effective response to the local needs of a particular congregation in a particular situation to meet a particular need and turn it into something that will address the problems faced by all other churches in all other places.

I think it started as soon as people took the advice of Paul to particular situations as a universal edict to be enforced on all churches even when their circumstances didn't remotely match the original situation.
 

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Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, on the CU thing with bacon butties, the reason for students making bacon butties is that they are very easy to cook. Especially important when they are provided by students who may have access to only a single stove top. You can't bake cakes, or much else, without a proper kitchen which is (or, in my day was) absent from most student halls of residence. But, bacon butties - you can do that on camping stoves if needed.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Something like handing out water bottles and flip flops after SU club nights is cheap and more universal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
That said, I'd not really agree that the Street Pastor model was "outreach" in the evangelistic sense many people use it.

The feeling I'm getting from some who are involved is that it ... has limited effect - in the evangelistic sense many are looking for.

Some are saying that this isn't what they signed up for.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:


Perhaps this emphasis has come about because it has been a partnership between churches, Council and Police right from the start. The publicity seeking to recruit volunteers asks 11 questions, of which some are practical: "Can you walk up to 7 miles a night?"; "Can you stay with someone who is blind drunk for a couple of hours while they sober up?"; and "Can you tell when someone is just hustling you for a Freddo?".

The most "evangelistic" one is, "Are you prepared to respond to all questions non-dogmatically?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Something like handing out water bottles and flip flops after SU club nights is cheap and more universal.

---

You're going to have to translate this one for me. There are more people that want crappy footwear than a bacon sandwich?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I like street pastor schemes and have read some quite impressive stuff about their work in late night city centres.

OTOH, from an evangelistic pov, IMO (and thinking back to when I was an undergraduate) CUs have got quite a bad/silly/weird enough reputation without thinking that the average student stumbling out of a club night is going to be inspired to join the bright eyed, earnest, sober ones hanging around with the water bottles.* The ones who are more likely to be inspired to join because of it are probably the ones that haven't gone out clubbing anyway...

*Nightline**, OTOH, seemed to have a great cross-section of people involved, from 1st XV rugby players, through party animals, to those focused entirely on getting their work done. Perhaps because it was anonymous, they were encouraged *not* to tell their friends they did it, and it didn't involve interacting with drunk peers face to face.

I may be entirely wrong, but I think CUs going down the street pastor route may be just about one of the least likely to work evangelistic efforts I can think of. As a public good, it would be entirely admirable, but I can't see it pulling in many new recruits.

**student version of the Samaritans

My student church*** didn't do bacon sandwiches (but then it practiced fasting before communion). On the other hand it dispensed liberal amounts of sherry to all-comers post mass (except in Trinity term when it was champagne), and had a weekly "state luncheon" with the preacher and the chapter to which undergraduates were invited in rotation. This worked very well, as did really going hard on recruiting the choir on the basis of varied mass settings rather than religious affiliation - it was remarkable how many people who turned up in year one for a bit of a sing were receiving the sacraments by year three!

***presumably fairly obvious from the following description which that was.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
DON'T SAY THAT!

You'll stir up the Ship's ancient feud about how they are actually barms ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Street Pastors also hand out lollipops (these again have a practical reason, as they can calm people down and diffuse a potentially violent situation).

About 10 years ago, the concept of Cafe Church, based around coffee and a snack, seemed to be a popular innovation of doing church. Has that continued, or was it merely of its time?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, it is a regional term but it's spread across much of the UK in recent years - I suspect because of its alliterative quality with the two 'b's.

So you'll hear 'bacon butty' used in places where you'd never hear of a 'cheese butty' or a 'ham butty'.

Besides, Boogie, author of the OP is from the North West which is where the term 'butty' is quite standard for a sandwich.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pomona:
Something like handing out water bottles and flip flops after SU club nights is cheap and more universal.

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You're going to have to translate this one for me. There are more people that want crappy footwear than a bacon sandwich?

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People are generally not allergic to or abstaining from flip flops for moral reasons, unlike gluten or pork. People (usually women) do want flat shoes after clubbing in heels, along with water.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
I think that if we say that we think that it is the eating of meat (or at least fish) in itself that is wrong, we are in danger of applying a higher moral standard than Our Lord's- and I can't see how that can fail to be sinful.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
People are generally not allergic to or abstaining from flip flops for moral reasons, unlike gluten or pork. People (usually women) do want flat shoes after clubbing in heels, along with water.

---

Non-women are about half the population. Vegetarians, Jews, Muslims and the gluten-intolerant are rather less than half the population. Going by the numbers, that makes a bacon sandwich more universal than a flip-flop.

Perhaps more seriously, a bacon butty is something that a large number of pork-eaters would be pleased to be offered. You wouldn't get nearly such a positive reaction if you were handing out pop tarts, cornflakes, or kedgeree.
Sure, it also excludes people who don't want to eat bacon, but I'm not sure that there exists a more widely-acceptable foodstuff that would generate a similar level of pleasure in the recipients.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Not the vegetarianism itself, Boogie; it depends on the reason for it. I think that for a Christian to believe that eating flesh is itself, in all circumstances and for everybody, inherently wrong (and I don't know how many vegetarians actually think that) is, if you work it out, placing your judgement of what is right and wrong above Our Lord's.

[ 04. January 2016, 19:41: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Perhaps more seriously, a bacon butty is something that a large number of pork-eaters would be pleased to be offered. You wouldn't get nearly such a positive reaction if you were handing out pop tarts, cornflakes, or kedgeree.
Sure, it also excludes people who don't want to eat bacon, but I'm not sure that there exists a more widely-acceptable foodstuff that would generate a similar level of pleasure in the recipients.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
Not eating meat isn't sinful. It has a long history as part of the discipline of fasting. However, believing that being vegetarian is either more virtuous than being omnivore, or will make one purer and more holy than one's omnivore neighbours is a serious error which is seriously bad for one's spiritual life. It's going back to seeing salvation in dietary terms which Jesus reverses at Mk 7:18-20 and which Paul spends so much time trying to wean his young converts away from.

It's OK to be vegetarian because one doesn't like meat, because one is fasting (though one should not fast on a feast day - that is to be ungrateful to God for his blessings), or even because it's cheaper. It isn't OK to be vegetarian because one believes it will make one a better person, because it won't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

It isn't OK to be vegetarian because one believes it will make one a better person, because it won't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Why isn't not wanting to eat a living creature a good enough reason?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:

Eating meat is a result of the Fall and was not permitted by God until Noah.

---

quote:

---

Enoch: It's OK to be vegetarian because one doesn't like meat, because one is fasting (though one should not fast on a feast day - that is to be ungrateful to God for his blessings), or even because it's cheaper. It isn't OK to be vegetarian because one believes it will make one a better person, because it won't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pomona:

Eating meat is a result of the Fall and was not permitted by God until Noah.

---

You know this how?

Even if you read that section of Genesis literally -- and along with most Christians and Jews I know, I certainly don't -- where does it state that? And where does it say that those who lived between Adam and Noah were sinning by eating meat?

John

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Pomona:
[QUOTE] It may also just be me and tainted by past experience, but there is also a silly macho attitude amongst evangelicals towards vegetarianism and specialist diets. Bacon sandwiches are manly enough, non-meaty food is not.

It sounds silly but I was told as a vegetarian in a previous church that Jesus would expect me to eat meat in Heaven (!) and it was seen as dangerous liberal nonsense.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Why isn't not wanting to eat a living creature a good enough reason? That's not automatically saying that one is holier or better because of it. Also lacto-ovo vegetarians are omnivores - only vegans are herbivores, vegetarians still eat some animal products.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

The reason, I assume, is a desire that the elements should be the first food of one's day. It would be quite interesting to know when it developed. I suspect sometime between 100 and 300 AD, but that it might not have become an actual expectation until a little bit later, ? possibly in the immediate post-Constantine era. Does any Shipmate know?

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No - because I had never heard of it until this thread!

It just shows how many man-made rules are wrapped in our traditions. In 1000 years our Church will be wondering why bacon butties were obligatory before the service
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
I'm not sure it is quite as simple as the view Enoch expresses about meat-eating.

There is quite a distance between sustainable fishing in the Galilee and modern industrialised meat production.

It seems to me that it is entirely possible to believe that there is a moral case for refusing meat on the basis of cruelty, environmental cost or other reasons. This isn't to say that Jesus was wrong to eat fish (even without getting into an argument about whether he actually ate fish) just that we're living in a different time and a different place. If we all were able to sustainably catch fish, it is possible that some/many of the moral issues vegetarians have would disappear.

As to the point about dietary choices making a "better person", in one sense surely if one has a moral objection to a practice and then vows to avoid that practice, one is therefore more moral than before. I don't know that Peter's example is supposed to make us believe that it makes no difference how we live our lives (or what we put into our mouths).

Of course, it is a messy process and it is wrong to assume we can measure ourselves against others. But it seems to me that there is a strong case for arguing that certain behaviours - regular flying, eating excess amounts of meat, driving petrol cars - are less moral than not doing those things. Therefore, as someone who does all of them, I could be a better person by refraining from them.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
But, to be clear, those objections- while, to return to the OP, they might rule out all but the most expensive and artisan bacon butties!- are not to eating meat or fish as such, but to eating meat or fish produced in certain ways which are, alas, predominant in our society and economy.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Our Church has started giving bacon sandwiches before the service to encourage people in.

What do you think of this and other gimmicks to 'get people in'?

---

I think it gives a whole new meaning when people describe the church as cancerous. Has no-one in your congregation been watching the news in recent months?

[ 05. January 2016, 10:37: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I don't know when the tradition of fasting before communion developed but I'd imagine it evolved/emerged around the time that the eucharist morphed from being a communal meal in the 'bun-fight' sense to becoming a more 'ritualised' one ... with 'tokens' of bread and wine to represent (or 're-present') the Body and Blood of Christ (see what I did there, introduce capital letters?) ...

I don't have an issue with it. Why is it any more a 'man-made rule' than anything else we might do in - or prior to - a church service?

Besides, the Pauline injunction to eat and drink before you come to a meeting is there to avoid people getting drunk or pigging out on the shared meal at the expense of other people - who might not get anything to eat because others had scoffed more than their fair share.

Once you've got smaller 'elements' - a piece of bread and a sip of wine - there's no danger in anyone getting drunk or pigging out on someone else's share ... so the injunction becomes redundant. Although, of course, Anglican vicars I know have confessed to feeling somewhat tipsy once they've celebrated several eucharists in the course of a morning around village parishes with a handful of attendees ...



FWIW, fasting before communion is a practice I've adopted myself - where and when feasible. It just doesn't 'feel right' to me any more to have a normal breakfast beforehand.

That doesn't mean I'd condemn or criticise those who have no such qualms - as I've said upthread, however we administer these things has to arise 'organically' from the norms and ethos of whatever tradition we're involved with.

I s'pose it's another indicator - among others - that I'm steadily moving 'up the candle' ... but that doesn't mean I'd begrudge ExclamationMark and his congregation their pre-service breakfast and pastries or whatever else.

It's all down to context. In ExclamationMark's context that's all perfectly fine and acceptable ... but it would be rude or disrespectful to roll up with Danish pastries, bacon butties and lashings of latte at St Alysious's Spikey-Parish on Monstrance Street.

That's not to say that food and fellowship can't be a part of a 'High Church' community ... from what I've seen churches of that ilk go in for shared meals and so on the same as everyone else does - only in ways that are appropriate for them.

The liberal-catholic Anglican parish here doesn't appear to go in for pre-eucharist fasting - although some of the older members (older? they're all old ... ) might observe that practice.

They do have fish and chip suppers after their annual AGM or whatever it is and on their Saint's Day and what-have-you ... as well as hosting the annual Churches Together 'seder' style (yes, I know, I know ...) Maundy Thursday fellowship meal thing ...

If anyone's stuck it out long enough through an Orthodox Paschal Vigil to sample the food on offer after that ... they'll have seen tables groaning with all kinds of goodies ... and with their strict Lenten fasting regime you can understand why ...

I don't think I'll forget the look on the face of one priest as he tucked into the roast lamb after a vegan diet for 6 weeks ...

You can tell, of course, that I don't regard the NT as 'normative' for everything we do or don't do on a Sunday morning ... I mean, who really knows what the heck the Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians?

All we've got is one-side of a telephone conversation as it were ...

Sure, there's enough detail there for us to make an educated guess about what was going on at the other end of the line ... but we can't possibly 'reconstruct' a NT style service.

It's bonkers to believe we can.

Even those who believe that our services/meetings should echo or follow a template based on 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 can't agree on the details ...

So, I'm sorry, I've left my 'restorationism' far behind. If any of you want to imagine that your services look anything like those in 1st century Ephesus or Thessalonica then go ahead ... entertain that fantasy ...

And enjoy your coffee and doughnuts or your bacon butties ...
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Enoch: It does not change the heart, and it is out of the heart that comes what defiles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. If someone were coming along to ExclamationMark's church and started scoffing all the pastries before anyone else had a chance to eat some or helping themselves to copious amounts of the communion bread and wine (whether alcoholic or otherwise) then ExclamationMark and others present would be well within their rights to upbraid them and direct them to those particular verses ...

2. Context is everything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, on the pre-communion fast issue ... I think I'm right in saying that the RCs have reduced the stipulation to no food or drink (other than for health/medical reasons) for an hour before Mass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...it's highly unlikely that the leadership sees it as a matter of 'manipulating/bribing people into coming'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

The OP said a specific offer (bacon sandwiches) was made for the purpose of getting people to come in, and asked what we think of gimmicks to get people to come in.

My answer is, gimmicks don't work. People sense that it's a gimmick, a superficial encounter pretending to be "for you" when it's really for some other, unspoken, goal like "getting more (employed and preferably child producing) bodies into our church to ensure the future of our church."

People don't like being "used." People really do pick up on whether you are engaging them honestly or are just trying to manipulate them for your own benefit (or the benefit of your church).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...it's highly unlikely that the leadership sees it as a matter of 'manipulating/bribing people into coming'.

---

You may be reading my word "bribe" too literally. It's not about dollar value. It's about what intent is motivating the offer.

People instinctively respond to the underlying intent.

The OP said a specific offer (bacon sandwiches) was made for the purpose of getting people to come in, and asked what we think of gimmicks to get people to come in.

---

There's a cultural difference in play here, I think. You have to realise that church decline and small congregations are fairly normal in British Christianity; no church leader is going to hand out food and expect a flock of people to come along and get converted. That was tried and found wanting about 50-100 years ago! Now it's about being seen as 'friendly'.

Middle class British people don't necessarily mind churches promoting themselves, so long as it's low-key rather than hard-sell, especially if the local community already knows about and appreciates the social commitment of the local congregation. Handing out bacon butties on a Sunday morning might not arouse very much suspicion about 'motives' - although being Britain, it might arouse a fair bit of well-meaning indifference.

Apart from that, middle class Brits are already willing to be 'bribed' to go to church - usually, it's so they can get their kids into a desirable church-affiliated school!

[ 07. January 2016, 20:29: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
As she said, though, she was specifically responding to the ( British) OP'er's request for opinions about the specific idea of "gimmicks to get people in" (which is a direct quote, right? )

I thought her response was a pretty concise summary of what a lot of people have already said.

[ 07. January 2016, 20:33: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Fair enough. It's just my opinion that there are gimmicks and gimmicks, and that not all churchy gimmicks are going to make outsiders feel resentful of hidden 'motives'.

Will it be 'successful'? Well, Methodists are positive people, but 'getting them in' probably just means they hope a few people will come along, enjoy the butties and have a nice time with some nice people. Maybe a bit of belonging before believing will occur, but no one is expecting mass conversions. Methodists aren't that daft!
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ok, I think I hear you, and " hoping people come and enjoy themselves" is pretty much what I meant before about "outreach being reaching out" rather than "reeling in."

I think it is good when a church sees itself as an asset to a community rather than as a recruitment staion for their parent organization is another way to put it, I guess. Healthier for the morale of that church in itself. I certainly see a dfference in the contentment level of parishioners whose churches operate that way.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
FWIW, I thought Belle Ringer's comment was fine too - in terms of identifying the pit-falls of gimmicks in a general sense ...

She wasn't referring to particular cultural conditions in any one place or time - be it Texas or be it Tonbridge Wells, Taunton, Thurso or Todmorden.

I think there are marked cultural differences between the US and UK church scenes - even within those Christian traditions and churches/denominations we have in common - and Belle Ringer will also be well aware of those. I sometimes read her posts and think I'm living on an entirely different planet ... but I suspect the some thing happens in reverse ...



What Belle Ringer has highlighted - and it augments the insights of other posters - is the need for 'authenticity'.

How we achieve that is a moot point ... we can't pick it up out of a self-help book or 'how to do church' manual ...

It has to arise naturally and organically out of 'who we are' and how we seek to work out and express our faith. It's difficult not to be 'self-conscious' about these things, but people recognise authenticity when they see it ... from whichever direction it comes.
 

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Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think there are marked cultural differences between the US and UK church scenes - even within those Christian traditions and churches/denominations we have in common - and Belle Ringer will also be well aware of those. I sometimes read her posts and think I'm living on an entirely different planet ... but I suspect the some thing happens in reverse ...

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Indeed it does. Perhaps one day we can discuss it over a plate of bacon butties and country ham biscuits.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Or a pint of proper hand-pulled cask ale ...


 

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Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Or a pint of proper hand-pulled cask ale ...

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Or? Why not and?
 

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Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Now they have an incumbent I'm told some of the young mums with kids no longer attend as he won't compromise with the liturgy 'They've got to learn it ...'

Whatever we think of that, what is he supposed to do? Stick a clown's nose on and do Messy Church? Do all the lickle actions with the kiddies songs and ditch the Prayer Book?

Sure, be all things to all men, but does that involve not being 'ourselves'?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I sometimes read her posts and think I'm living on an entirely different planet ... but I suspect the some thing happens in reverse...

---

Seeing as this obviously wasn't one of those posts, I'm not sure why this remark pertains.

Svitlana-- RE: " Christlike authenticity" -- thank goodness nobody introduced that phrase to the conversation (before you did) as yeah, who could achieve it, and how could you quantify it if they did?

Anyway, while authenticity is important, I find myself wanting a different word. A phrase from curriculum development comes to me: " process over product." In teaching terms is about valuing the experience of an activity and evaluating it by the effort, enthusiasm, and memories generated in the process itself rather than evaluating it on what you are able to tape up on the wall. In terms of outreach: In terms of outreach: the act of reaching out itself is the mark of abundance, and it lowers the joy factor of those reaching out if they worry about who will come back later,mrather then relaxing and enjoying the event itself as something intrinsically important.
(Wow, sounds like dating, doesn't it )

The sense I get is that most of us are pretty much saying the same thing but finding different ways to say it. Not that that is a problem, each nuance brings a little more insight.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure - the only reason I cited the cultural difference aspect, Kelly Alves, was because I understood SvitlanaV2's response to Belle Ringer in that kind of context.

At least initially ...

When I looked at it again I understood Belle Ringer's point in a more general sense.

As confession is good for the soul, I must also admit that I also assumed that the kind of crass 'bribery' incentives that Belle Ringer was alluding to were more likely to be a feature of US religion than to the church scene on this side of the Pond.

So perhaps there was a ... mea culpa ... prejudicial element or an 'At least we're not like those Yanks ...' aspect to my response - for which I apologise.

As SvitlanaV2 has said, if there are more razzamattazy gifts and incentives offered as part of North American religious culture we have our own - arguably more subtle but equally insidious equivalents - such as people attending Anglican church services every now and then simply to get their kids into well-run CofE schools ...

So, apologies if I muddied the waters.

Belle Ringer's observations are sound.

@Nick Tamen ... yes, it should be both/and ... and to show that I'm repentant of any lapse into this side of the Pond chauvinism, I'd be more than happy to share a US craft beer too ... perhaps a Sierra Nevada or one of those Goose Island pale ales ...


 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I must also admit that I also assumed that the kind of crass 'bribery' incentives that Belle Ringer was alluding to were more likely to be a feature of US religion than to the church scene on this side of the Pond.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Some UK churches offer a place in school in exchange for becoming or remaining a member - The school is meeting real needs, but is the requirement to attend church a "gimmick" to get people to come to church for reasons other than wanting to be part of a worship community?

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quote:

---

I've seen churches try to get people into the building via secular concerts and free use of the hall for secular meetings, on the theory if we just get people into the building they'll see the beautiful stained glass windows and join the church. Doesn't work. People don't trade Sunday mornings week after week just to see the glass art.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

Gimmicks misunderstand people, and mis-express what it is the church has to offer that is otherwise missing in someone's life.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

Gimmicks misunderstand people, and mis-express what it is the church has to offer that is otherwise missing in someone's life.

---

When you put it like that, I'm tempted to say that almost anything that a church might do to attract or reach out to people might be described as a gimmick.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
- The number of people I hear about who won't attend concerts at such a venue apparently 'because it's a church'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...
Why? Because to 'misunderstand' modern western people is to refuse to accept the apparent reality that they mostly live and are mostly happy to live in a disenchanted world. No matter how much you love them, smile at them, give them bacon butties, concerts in cathedrals, tattooed vicars in t-shirts or prayer time in coffee shops, the reality is that they don't see any need for a God who is surplus to requirements. They don't see how such a troublesome and unreliable character, even if he did exist, could help them with anything that's 'missing' in their lives, and other people's apparently unjustified faith often embarrasses or frustrates them.

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quote:

---

If this is so, it's hard to know how the churches can benefit, whatever their level of understanding. Maybe they could re-fashion themselves as centres for self-help and personal growth. ...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

For my money, the two questions worth asking are "How can we be a good neighbor in the community where God has put us?," and "How can we best show hospitality to those who walk through our doors?" It should never be about attracting new bodies or getting people in the pews. Rather, it should be about sharing the love of Christ in sometimes simple and tangible ways with all we meet.

At the heart of things, what we as church have to offer isn't programs or services or education or whatever. It may not even be God, who certainly is active and can be found in other places, despite us. What we as church have to offer is ourselves. And sometimes, something as simple as the gift of a bit of food can convey that self-offering.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[It's] hard to know how the churches can benefit [from the disenchantment of the world] whatever their level of understanding. Maybe they could re-fashion themselves as centres for self-help and personal growth. ...

---

Well, in theory, they always have been. However, "You're a miserable sinner and you're going to burn in hell forever unless you come to church" doesn't actually come across like an offer of help and growth in the 21st Century.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
However, there are two problems here. Firstly, this sort of thing is almost an institutional necessity now, rather than just a Christ-like virtue. If a church doesn't do the community stuff in a secular community then no one will even know it exists! In fact, sometimes most of the community doesn't know in any case, because 'serving the community' takes places from a building that often looks scruffy and abandoned....

And this leads to the second problem. Some non-churchgoers complain about churches that don't seem to be doing this and that for the community. What they don't realise is that churches are just people. People among whom the Kingdom of God may exist, but on a physical level, just people. But when churchgoers are getting older and older, are dying, have few children or converts to push the work forward, where is all this Christ-like 'service' supposed to come from?

See, you need to keep on recruiting in order to have people on board to serve the community. If you fail at the first task you're going to run out of people to pursue the second, and the system won't work. This is a serious problem for many community-minded, evangelism-shy churches. Many of them here have already closed or are projected to close.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, when it comes to putting on jazz or folk music concerts in there the reaction is very different ... even when we've had drinks served at the back (tut! tut! tut!) ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
To me, whether jazz 'works' in a church building depends a bit on the kind of jazz.

---

Rules for Jazz gig:

1 - Don't advertise it as Jazz.

There are no other rules.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think I've learned that the hard way, Sioni ...


 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Back to the vegetarianism argument - we had a mens' breakfast at our church for Fathers' Day a few years back.

The breakfast consisted of a bacon roll.

Our pastor announced "There is a vegetarian option. It's the roll."

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Back to the vegetarianism argument - we had a mens' breakfast at our church for Fathers' Day a few years back.

The breakfast consisted of a bacon roll.

Our pastor announced "There is a vegetarian option. It's the roll."

---

I bet the pastor couldn't see what an colossal knob he was being, either.

---

quote:

---

Sioni Sais: Rules for Jazz gig:

1 - Don't advertise it as Jazz.

There are no other rules.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Back to the vegetarianism argument - we had a mens' breakfast at our church for Fathers' Day a few years back.

The breakfast consisted of a bacon roll.

Our pastor announced "There is a vegetarian option. It's the roll."

---

I bet the pastor couldn't see what an colossal knob he was being, either.

---

It was tongue in cheek. Everyone there got the joke.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Back to the vegetarianism argument - we had a mens' breakfast at our church for Fathers' Day a few years back.

The breakfast consisted of a bacon roll.

Our pastor announced "There is a vegetarian option. It's the roll."

---

I bet the pastor couldn't see what an colossal knob he was being, either.

---

It was tongue in cheek. Everyone there got the joke.

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What joke? All I see is someone implying vegetarians are not worth catering for so can fuck off because tbey're not really welcome.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Context is (nearly) everything ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Our Church has started giving bacon sandwiches before the service to encourage people in.

What do you think of this and other gimmicks to 'get people in'?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If you live in an area where there are lots of Muslims then it's not irrelevant. I know of two local churches which see their ministry as involving Muslims. This makes a lot of sense in their environment. A CU at a uni with a growing international or multicultural British intake might also find such considerations relevant to their evangelistic strategy.

In another setting, though, the aim may be to focus on the 'typical' student, or the indigenous, ordinary local person who isn't too bothered about being healthy so long as they're fed.

I write as someone who enjoys bacon, but it's obviously not the most culturally versatile, user-friendly food....

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I agree with Boogie. This is frequently part and parcel of a certain culture, found often but not exclusively in churches, in which off-the-cuff comments by authority figures serve, unwittingly or deliberately, to belittle the hearers and put them at a psychological disadvantage for no good reason - other than to further assert the authority of the speaker.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But there's an equal and opposite danger of falling into paranoia and interpreting an admittedly ill-conceived quip or remark as some kind of power-play posturing when it was simply a daft thing to say.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I bet the pastor couldn't see what an colossal knob he was being, either. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I bet the pastor couldn't see what an colossal knob he was being, either.

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Yes, I must admit that my immediate response when seeing the scenario was 'tosser' - and yeah, I've been in church situations where this kind of joke is common, and usually there's a lot more negative-energy stuff going on than just one isolated incident. [/QB]

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So, if you ever try to have a joke and it misfires, you're happy to be called a "knob" and a "tosser"?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
It depends on whether the cap fits, doesn't it?

If someone acts like either of those things, then surely the epithet is appropriate?


 

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Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It depends on whether the cap fits, doesn't it?

If someone acts like either of those things, then surely the epithet is appropriate?

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And if they don't, then it isn't

[ 14. January 2016, 13:51: Message edited by: The Phantom Flan Flinger ]
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
So, if you ever try to have a joke and it misfires, you're happy to be called a "knob" and a "tosser"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
So, if you ever try to have a joke and it misfires, you're happy to be called a "knob" and a "tosser"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, I'd agree with that too, Eutychus, that some systems have that sort of thing embedded within their DNA.

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