Ship of Fools: Married, no kids - by choice

Thread: Married, no kids - by choice - but not an alien! Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Last of the Timelords (# 18645) on :

This is my first post and I hope that it does not start a riot - that would not be good.

Has anyone had experience of feeling like an outsider in the church because they are married without kids?

As both my wife and I feel that having chosen not to have kids the majority of churches we have attended are really bewildered by this and don't know how to relate to us. In all honesty there have been times when we have been tempted to walk away from the church altogether because of this.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

It's slightly easier to fit into a church when the lack of kids isn't by choice.

Obviously, that doesn't make up for how much harder the rest of life seems to be.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Hallo and welcome!

I can't answer this personally, as we have a (now grown-up) son. But I think and hope that I can understand how you feel, as so many churches seem to major on children's work and being "family friendly", indeed that is seen as the major area of work and growth.

(There are some Fundamentalist churches which take the "be fruitful" passage in the Bible very literally and regard it as a positive sin not to have squads of children. But I've encountered very few Christians in the UK that take that line.)

Bearing in mind Paul's comments about not marrying so as to devote himself to God's work (not the same thing as your decision but surely analogous to it), I think it is entirely up to you whether you choose to have children or not. Indeed you may feel that it is wrong to bring a new life into an already crowded world: that is an honourable position to hold.

I know that there are some churches which actively dislike children, and they need to be challenged about discrimination and inclusivity. But perhaps you have a mission to point out to exclusively child-oriented congregations that they, too, are failing to treat everyone equally in Christ's love?

As an aside, my sister-in-law and husband chose not to have children and had to endure loads and loads of "hints" from her mother. So it's not just an issue in church circles.

[ 19. August 2016, 10:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

How do the churches you have attended know whether your not having children is by choice ?

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Whether a particular couple decides to have children is their own business. In churches, as indeed elsewhere, this sometimes gets forgotten.

A person in church who I don’t know all that well suckered me like this over coffee recently. It started with the normal chitchat – how’s the new job, are you still living in the same apartment, bla bla, and then the question is ‘any plans for a baby?’

I was very proud of myself for overcoming my socialisation and deciding to Let It Be Awkward. I looked taken aback and replied, ‘That’s a very indiscreet question.’ (Cultural context: the concept of an indiscreet question is well known to all French people. Means you just asked something rather rude that it’s not your business to know.) He floundered about a little bit, saying that he had always thought it was a perfectly natural question, but I didn’t budge. I did my best shocked face and told him it was no question to ask. I hope he’s thought about it since. Apart from anything else, if he asks this to a person or couple who can’t have children, someone’s going to be very upset.

Actually, I would like to have children, but I’m not discussing that with random dude at church. Yes I made it awkward. No I don’t regret it. When someone asks you a highly personal question that’s none of their business, you aren’t the one being rude.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
...When someone asks you a highly personal question that’s none of their business, you aren’t the one being rude.

Absolutely!

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

And it is a rude question in another way. How does the questioner know of your personal physical status? Perhaps you are a couple struggling with fertility issues and have been in agony about it for decades. And no, it is nobody's duty to share the status of their ovaries or sperm count, thanks very much -- that's what the phrase "too much information" was coined for. What next, asking a one-legged man why he isn't running in the marathon?
I can think of no faster and neater way to ensure that people don't come to that church. They should straighten up and fly right.

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

I have a child, so it does'nt apply to me, but Brenda Clough and LVER, it could be almost fun to give someone a discourse on ovarian state and sperm count. I'm sure it would be possible to use sufficient medical terminology to confuse/embarrass the questioner without actually giving any real information.
Or maybe I'm just nasty.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Good for you, la vie en rouge! Well handled.

It's no longer a concern for me -- I'm past that time of life and no longer married -- but those questions used to drive me crazy.

Last of the Timelords (Welcome! by the way) -- even though I used to get those questions, I never felt that I was an outsider or unwelcome at church. (At one church I attended, being a woman working "outside the home" was a bigger stigma than being childless.)

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

Respect to la vie en rose, an apt response I think. One of my daughters is childless by choice and she is finding it hard to deal with the any kids on the horizon type question. I have an an acquaintance who regularly asks me if she has had children yet; so rude, but I try to reply graciously.
This is a wider problem than a church one.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Good for you, La Vie en Rouge.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Miss Manners suggests that when someone asks you a very personal question, you should put a surprised look on your face and say, "Why would you ask a question like that?"

Moo

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

Welcome aboard, Last of the Time Lords. Your question has gained quite a few responses.

Check out the Ten Commandments and the guidelines for each board which are posted at the top of the boards.

Enjoy the voyage.

Lothlorien AS Host

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

Not a question about childlessness, but in my view too personal to be asked as it was by a visiting missionary: "Why didn't you take Communion?"

I'm not keen on doorstep religion, either. [Ultra confused]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Welcome Last of the Timelords!

Well done La Vie. Embrace the awkward, yay!

Posted by Last of the Timelords (# 18645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
How do the churches you have attended know whether your not having children is by choice ?

How do they know we don't have kids? Easy, we turn up with our dog (small, cute and irresistible) and say 'This is the nearest thing we've got to kids and the cat was doing his own thing!' I hasten to add we do it in a jocular fashion which works most of the time except for last week when we got looked at by the man on the door in a way that said 'Burn the heretics!'

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

This is one of the reasons why I worship in a cathedral. If you want to be looked at as three-headed, try being over 40 and single.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Most churches have traditionally maintained their existence by acculturating the children of their members, so it's no surprise that they should be interested in who's having or might be having children.

Evangelical churches are presumably also interested because they tend to be more concerned about their members' private lives. If you want more space a MOTR church would be better.

I imagine that a church attended largely by old people, with no Sunday School, wouldn't have very many questions on this topic.

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I imagine that a church attended largely by old people, with no Sunday School, wouldn't have very many questions on this topic.

My experience in this case was that although people didn't ask me to my face, a concern about 'the next generation' was very much to the fore. So whenever someone did turn up with kids (or to be honest anyone at all under 40, kids or no kids) they would be mobbed to the point of it being really offputting.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Yes, I can imagine that.

In reality, though, like attracts like, and parents who want a proper Sunday School for their children are likely to go to a church that already has one, not just a few tables in the corner and some pencil crayons. Most families don't want to be pioneers in this regard.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
This is one of the reasons why I worship in a cathedral. If you want to be looked at as three-headed, try being over 40 and single.

I have aged out of the possibility of children, which is a relief, but I too found worshipping in a Cathedral solved the problem of impertinent questions. Apart from my mother who was desperate for grandchildren.

Now I worship at a church where no one asks, although it's probably obvious as I only refer to my brothers as my family members.

Huia

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

quote:

originally posted by Last of the Timelords

How do they know we don't have kids?

Evidently I did not word my question very well, as that is not what I was asking at all. How do they know it was by choice ?

I know several couples who don't have kids but only in relation to the ones who are my friends do I know whether they chose not to or whether it just didn't happen, or couldn't happen.

The ones who are more acquaintances than friends have not volunteered such information nor have I asked them.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

There are several people without children at the church I go to. Some would criticise the church as not doing enough to attract families with young children, but maybe some churches can fulfil a useful role in not majoring on families? As long as other churches in town do this, or your own church at a separate time other than the main Sunday service.

The only time I have noticed childless couples or singles feel uncomfortable is on Mothering Sunday. I still think we have some way to go to get that one right.

Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on :

I have a degree of relief that it's not just me! Husband and I started going to a new church around Easter this year and have found it really hard to get to know people. The church isn't large, but almost all the other people who are close to our age have children. I'm happy to be friendly with older people, but we're almost completely ignored by our own generation - which is a bit hurtful. We seem to be the only younger couple around who don't have kids. The single people of our age are lovely, but there are only a couple of them and they're often very busy with the post-service prayer ministry, making chatting after church a bit difficult!

Fortunately, only one person has asked if we have children - I pointed out that we'd only been married 7 months at that point, so no! (GLEs) I'm hoping it doesn't become a common question as it's really no-one's business but ours.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

I'm married with no children through a combination of circumstances and I'm (almost) at peace with it. The reaction I get at Village Kirk is to be welcomed, encouraged in what I contribute and included in church activities. I've seen similar attitudes to people who are variously married, divorced, remarried, single parents, retired, looking after grandchildren, adopting and struggling. I thank God for Village Kirk, and I pray for all God's people to learn the good bits of what I've seen here. Especially the baking.

Cattyish, grateful.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

First of all, welcome aboard, Last of the Time-lords! [Smile]

I'll join you in the childless-by-choice club, and as I'm 54 and my husband is 60, we're certainly not planning on starting now! I must confess that if I'm asked why we didn't have kids, I usually mutter something about "never felt we could afford to give up my salary", which frankly isn't anybody else's business either, but seems to be the nearest to an "acceptable answer" that we can offer.

And yes, when I consider that there are people who would give their eye-teeth to have been able to have children, I do feel a pang of guilt, but it's not as if we could have had them on their behalf, is it?

Also, well done La Vie - that was definitely the Right Answer. [Overused]

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