Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You really are a tool, Bibliophile. Bet Salizar made the trains run on time too.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:It was the Marxists who were maintaining a terrible civil war in Angola. Millions of people suffered. The foreign leader who bears the greatest degree of responsibility for their suffering was Fidel Castro.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No, you don't get to play games like this. South Africa maintained a terrible civil war for no cause at all, just the same stupid "communism is evil and everything is valid against it" that you are spouting here.
If you want to make your stupid little arguments here, I don't care about that. But now you are using the suffering of millions of people just to be smug about it. You said that what South Africa did in Angola was a good thing. Take it back.
quote:I wish I could be bothered to work out who was allied to whom through the complex and long running wars of independence in South-West Africa and Angola, but they ran from about 1960 to about 2005, there were at least six separate major groups in varying alliances and a few of them changed from being backed by the Soviet Bloc to being supplied and aided by the United States and South Africa.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I will repeat here the answer I gave on the other thread
quote:It was the Marxists who were maintaining a terrible civil war in Angola. Millions of people suffered. The foreign leader who bears the greatest degree of responsibility for their suffering was Fidel Castro.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No, you don't get to play games like this. South Africa maintained a terrible civil war for no cause at all, just the same stupid "communism is evil and everything is valid against it" that you are spouting here.
If you want to make your stupid little arguments here, I don't care about that. But now you are using the suffering of millions of people just to be smug about it. You said that what South Africa did in Angola was a good thing. Take it back.
quote:Right lets go through the timeline shall we.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Yes I get it:
The Portuguese and the South Africans were good, whatever they did, because they were not communists.
The Cubans were bad whatever they did, because they were communists, because of what they might do.
Even if this twisted version of yours is right (which it isn't, because you don't understand a fuck of what happened there), that doesn't make what South Africa did good.
Even if Cubans are eeeeeeevil communists who were responsible for everything (which is just your stupid little argument and doesn't do justice to what happened there), that doesn't make what South Africa did right.
What South Africa did was wrong. Admit it. And apologise for saying it was right.
quote:Can I just clarify here what I am calling good. I am not calling the South African government backing of UNITA and RENAMO a 'good thing'. Both organisations were quite capable of being just as cruel and murderous as the communists they were fighting against. Indeed, as you know, UNITA were ex communists. I think that both wars were the result of communist aggression and violence but that does not make South Africa an innocent party in either case.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No, I'm not going to play your games and get lost in your twisted accounts of history.
Once again, South Africa financed groups who went into villages, murdered childrens' parents in front of their eyes, filled the children with drugs, induced them in 'magical' rituals that involved cutting off people's body parts and then set them of against other villages.
South Africa did these things. What you say about Cuba's role in the conflict is incorrect, but regardless of what the Cubans did: even if your twisted version of history is the right one, then what South Africa did was still wrong.
You said (three times already) that what South Africa did was good and right. You are someone who supports killing childrens' parents before their eyes. You are some who supports forcing children to mutilate people. You are someone who says that a country who did these things was right. You disrepect the people who suffered from this for your smug little arguments.
You are despicable.
quote:That's just stupid.
Bibliophile: What I am calling good is the South African governments support for the Portuguese colonial authorities when they were faced with Marxism rebellion and Cuban aggression.
quote:Why do you think that?
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:That's just stupid.
Bibliophile: What I am calling good is the South African governments support for the Portuguese colonial authorities when they were faced with Marxism rebellion and Cuban aggression.
quote:No, that's the game I'm not going to play.
Bibliophile: Why do you think that?
quote:You've just described the terrible atrocities that were committed by both sides in the Angola and Mozambique civil wars. Those atrocities that happened in Angola were, as you know, carried out by the warring factions, the MPLA and UNITA.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:No, that's the game I'm not going to play.
Bibliophile: Why do you think that?
quote:The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since. Its a bit rich to blame Portugal for modern Angola's problems.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Hmmm, maybe because the Portuguese are the source of modern Angolan problems? Or because the Portuguese, and their western allies, prolonged the conflict as part of their cold war against the USSR?
quote:What would have been good about continuing it?
Originally posted by romanlion:
Prolonging the cold war certainly couldn't have been a bad thing.
Last check I had it's been over now for decades.
quote:Legitimate + colonial is an oxymoron.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
... Firstly in 1961 the legitimate government of Angola was the Portuguese colonial authority. ...
quote:Well, the rich white ones were, and who else matters?
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Someone seriously thinks the South Africans were good during apartheid times? Where's my bastard file and where's my throwing axe?
quote:The Angolan collapsed because the Portuguese, who were the skilled labour force, fucking left with no one prepared to take over. They fucked the Angolans for years and left.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since.
quote:To describe the Portuguese government as a legitimate regime is far-fetched, as from 1933 it was run by the neo-Nazi Estado Nuevo as a one party state. Antonio Salazar led it until 1968, then Caetano until it fell in 1974. That swiftly led to the abandonment of Portugal's colonies such as Angola and Mozambique.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:The Angolan collapsed because the Portuguese, who were the skilled labour force, fucking left with no one prepared to take over. They fucked the Angolans for years and left.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since.
If you are going to pretend to discuss history, at least read Wikipedia before spouting bullshit.
quote:Why would the skilled labour force in Angola leave their established careers with nothing? Could it be that a violent Marxist dictatorship was coming to power, forcing them to become refugees? And you're blaming the economic collapse that followed this refugee crisis on the refugees themselves rather than on the marxist MPLA that created the crisis.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:The Angolan collapsed because the Portuguese, who were the skilled labour force, fucking left with no one prepared to take over. They fucked the Angolans for years and left.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since.
If you are going to pretend to discuss history, at least read Wikipedia before spouting bullshit.
quote:Yeah, but as Joe and at least one of his children were or grew up to be communists, ergo evil, his wife was a legitimate target.
Originally posted by L'organist:
Whatever your views of Marxism, or apartheid, there is no way that things like the killing of Ruth First could ever be justified.
She was blown up by a parcel bomb sent to her in Mozambique from South Africa. It emerged after the fall of apartheid that what had been widely assumed about her death was true: the bomb was sent by the South African security service.
Ruth First's only crime was to be the wife of Joe Slovo and the mother of his three daughters.
quote:You can get into chicken and egg arguments about this sort of things very easily. "White flight" in the US immediately springs to mind.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Why would the skilled labour force in Angola leave their established careers with nothing? Could it be that a violent Marxist dictatorship was coming to power, forcing them to become refugees? And you're blaming the economic collapse that followed this refugee crisis on the refugees themselves rather than on the marxist MPLA that created the crisis.
quote:The Portuguse regime had just collapsed and the empire had simply been thrown away. Much like Britain in 410AD, there wasn't an Anglo-Saxon invasion then but the Romans left because of trouble back home.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:Why would the skilled labour force in Angola leave their established careers with nothing? Could it be that a violent Marxist dictatorship was coming to power, forcing them to become refugees? And you're blaming the economic collapse that followed this refugee crisis on the refugees themselves rather than on the marxist MPLA that created the crisis.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:The Angolan collapsed because the Portuguese, who were the skilled labour force, fucking left with no one prepared to take over. They fucked the Angolans for years and left.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The Angolan economy collapsed when the communists took over in 1975 and they've been governing the country for 40 years since.
If you are going to pretend to discuss history, at least read Wikipedia before spouting bullshit.
quote:Refugees? Really? The people who had oppressed Africans for centuries are regugees?
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Why would the skilled labour force in Angola leave their established careers with nothing? Could it be that a violent Marxist dictatorship was coming to power, forcing them to become refugees? And you're blaming the economic collapse that followed this refugee crisis on the refugees themselves rather than on the marxist MPLA that created the crisis.
quote:Any people forced out of where they live, regardless of the history, colonial or otherwise, can be refugees. Begin a refugee is separate from the level of concern and support for being a refugee. Another example would be Germans living in what is now Poland but was East Prussia, who were forced out in 1945-8. Or Greeks forced out of Anatolia by Turks in 1922. Or North American Indians forced onto reserves. We may think that making some people refugees is entirely reasonable at times.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Refugees? Really? The people who had oppressed Africans for centuries are regugees?
Apparently, enslaving people, stealing their land, etc is OK if you ado it in the name of anything but communism.
quote:Were they also blind? Because one would have to be at the very least blind to not be aware that their "better life" came at the expense of others.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.
quote:I'm pretty sure that everyone everywhere living a better life does so at the expense of others. Including me.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Were they also blind? Because one would have to be at the very least blind to not be aware that their "better life" came at the expense of others.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.
quote:Wow, this such such a nonsense response that it is difficult to know where to start.
Originally posted by JonahMan:
quote:I'm pretty sure that everyone everywhere living a better life does so at the expense of others. Including me.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Were they also blind? Because one would have to be at the very least blind to not be aware that their "better life" came at the expense of others.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.
quote:The answer is yes and that nuance exists.
Does the fact that a country is an oppressive force make all individuals from that country oppressors? I'm willing to allow some nuance in that.
quote:Not really, it is more akin to saying that both involve physical violence. I would certainly agree that the Portuguese in that situation were benefitting to a greater, and to a more obvious degree. But you and I are also living at other's expense. Or are you under the impression that, for example, the computer you're using to post with was entirely using well-paid, happy labour? That all the elements used to make it were mined by happy people with no chance of death or injury? The same applies to virtually every other aspect of life, to some extent. Not as extreme as life under apartheid, perhaps. But not far off in many cases, and in all cases it is a matter of degree, not kind.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Wow, this such such a nonsense response that it is difficult to know where to start.
Originally posted by JonahMan:
quote:I'm pretty sure that everyone everywhere living a better life does so at the expense of others. Including me.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Were they also blind? Because one would have to be at the very least blind to not be aware that their "better life" came at the expense of others.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But I also think that many Portuguese who went "overseas" to find a better life and then lost everything were indeed genuine refugees. I don't think that one can always see these issues in absolute or binary terms.
This is akin to saying being swatted on the bum as a child is akin to another being beaten to death.
quote:As I keep saying I wasn't talking about the Angolan civil war when I said South Africa did a good thing in intervening. There weren't really any 'good guys' in that war, the MPLA and UNITA both being quite loathsome organisations.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I know much less about the civil war in Angola than the one in Mozambique, simply because I spend much more time in the latter country. I also think the war in Angola was more complex.
I like to discuss with people about the war in Angola, even those who don't agree with me, to get to know more about the subject. I've already spoken with people on both sides of that war, and that has been very enlightening.
But not with an intellectual low-flyer whose moral compass is so twisted he thinks that António fucking Salazar is justified while Nelson Mandela is the bad guy. You have some serious problems, but I'm not the one who's going to cure you. What I do hold against you is your disrespect for the victims of these wars, saying that what was done against them was good and right.
quote:Pot, meet kettle.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
You are obviously so filled with anti-colonial fanaticism that the very idea that the Portuguese colonial authorities might have been justified in some things sends you into a rage.
quote:Two things I didn't say. Understanding what you're reading isn't your strongest point either. You're just too dumb.
Bibliophile: I have been repeatedly accused of simplistic binary classifications of people as good or evil and yet that is exactly what you are doing here. You talk about 'listening to both sides' but what I suspect you mean is listening to both anti-colonial groups, the MPLA and UNITA.
quote:Look, I get this. And I do not care for this being the case. Not sure everyone who uses electronic devices does know, though. Really hard to say this for first-worlders living in Africa.
Originally posted by JonahMan:
But you and I are also living at other's expense. Or are you under the impression that, for example, the computer you're using to post with was entirely using well-paid, happy labour?
quote:And to the extent you do nothing to change this, you are guilty as well. To a degree.
Originally posted by JonahMan:
The same applies to virtually every other aspect of life, to some extent. Not as extreme as life under apartheid, perhaps. But not far off in many cases, and in all cases it is a matter of degree, not kind.
quote:I quite agree. Not sure why you were getting your knickers in a twist in the first place. I certainly didn't say we shouldn't condemn apartheid or any other regime or economic system that generates injustice. I was merely pointing out that our hands are by no means clean either.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Look, I get this. And I do not care for this being the case. Not sure everyone who uses electronic devices does know, though. Really hard to say this for first-worlders living in Africa.
Originally posted by JonahMan:
But you and I are also living at other's expense. Or are you under the impression that, for example, the computer you're using to post with was entirely using well-paid, happy labour?
quote:And to the extent you do nothing to change this, you are guilty as well. To a degree.
Originally posted by JonahMan:
The same applies to virtually every other aspect of life, to some extent. Not as extreme as life under apartheid, perhaps. But not far off in many cases, and in all cases it is a matter of degree, not kind.
But are you suggesting that, because we cannot live completely ethically, we cannot condemn atrocity?
It is not completely clean your own house and then call for change elsewhere, it is do both.
quote:I didn't say that you had accused me of simplistic binary thinking, I said that I had repeatedly accused of it here, which I have been.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:Two things I didn't say. Understanding what you're reading isn't your strongest point either. You're just too dumb.
Bibliophile: I have been repeatedly accused of simplistic binary classifications of people as good or evil and yet that is exactly what you are doing here. You talk about 'listening to both sides' but what I suspect you mean is listening to both anti-colonial groups, the MPLA and UNITA.
quote:So you said that you spoke with people 'on both sides' and that it was 'very enlightening', in other words that you listened to people on both sides.
I like to discuss with people about the war in Angola, even those who don't agree with me, to get to know more about the subject. I've already spoken with people on both sides of that war, and that has been very enlightening.
quote:No - that is not why people are challenging you on this forum.
Bibliophile posted:
I have been repeatedly accused of simplistic binary classifications of people as good or evil and yet that is exactly what you are doing here.
quote:It is for posts such as this where you have continued to demonstrate any real empathy or shown any compassion for the thousands who suffered under apartheid.
If peaceful and lawful protests do not induce the authorities to enact social reform then the correct solution is to respect the authorities' decision.
quote:I do tend to react strongly, so I re-read the post. And, in the context of the thread, it still appears that you were minimising the Portuguese culpability in Africa.
Originally posted by JonahMan:
I quite agree. Not sure why you were getting your knickers in a twist in the first place. I certainly didn't say we shouldn't condemn apartheid or any other regime or economic system that generates injustice.
quote:Preach it. On the first world's negative impact on the planet, I have a fairly constant record of being a PITA.*
Originally posted by JonahMan:
I was merely pointing out that our hands are by no means clean either.
quote:I think that is accurate: I have him down as Articulate Stupid. And, as you say, a moral idiot.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, Sioni, Bibliophile probably is clever - but he's not very intelligent. There is a difference. His level of emotional intelligence is very low indeed - judging by his posts.
quote:Well I have never heard of D F Dixon but I have heard of people like Fromm and Adorno. Of course they were social scientists with openly far left sympathies who wrote works pathologising right wing thinking. Whist I have not studied their work I can't help suspecting that their conclusions were heavily influenced by their own political biases. Your reference to 'the authoritarian personality' leads me to suspect that Dixon may have been following this school of thought.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Gamaliel, I suspect Bibliophile is actually very clever indeed, with an IQ of c 140. He cannot however accept any information that is at odds with his own preconceptions and prejudices.
It's all part of the authoritarian personality - read "The Psychology of Military Incompetence" by N F Dixon, which shows how a lot of Bibliophile's traits are a Bad Thing for military commanders (and anyone else in command).
quote:Well I've just had a look at Forward and Preface of 'The Authoritarian Personality' where it it pretty much openly admitted that the work was driven by political bias
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The solution to not knowing what someone has written is simple. Get a copy of the relevant books and read what they say. Shouldn't be difficult for a self confessed lover of books.
quote:From the preface also by Horkheimer
Our aim is not merely to describe prejudice but to explain it in order to help in its eradication. That is the challenge we would meet. Eradication means re-education, scientifically planned on the basis of understanding scientifically arrived at. And education in a strict sense is by its nature personal and psychological.
quote:So in other words there isn't even a pretence of scientific objectivity. Horkheimer is effectively stating that the authors work was politically motivated, that they started out with a political motivation i.e. that they wanted to attack 'the authoritarian personality'. This motivated the conclusion that they wanted to reach i.e. that 'the authoritarian personality' was pathological and that the studies were specifically designed to produce that conclusion. The fact that the notorious pseudo scientist Sigmund Freud is also singled out for high praise in the preface doesn't bode well for work in the book.
The present work, we hope, will find a place in this history of the interdependence between science and the cultural climate. Its ultimate goal is to open new avenues in a research area which can become of immediate practical significance. It seeks to develop and promote an understanding of social-psychological factors which have made it possible for the authoritarian type of man to threaten to replace the individualistic and democratic type prevalent in the past century and a half of our civilization, and of the factors by which this threat may be contained. Progressive analysis of this new "anthropological" type and of its growth conditions, with an ever increasing scientific differentiation, will enhance the chances of a genuinely educational counterattack.
quote:I hope you aren't suggesting that his work has added authority because he was a military officer and taught at a military academy. That would be very authoritarian of you!
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
FWIW Norman Dixon served in the Royal Engineers then studied psychology, becoming professor at University College London. He also taught at Sandhurst, the British Army's college
quote:No, I thought it might, just, be a counter to your automatic and prejudiced assumption that anything left-wing must be evil. Anyway, Dixon's book explains that many poor or inadequate military commanders (especially those out of their depth) displayed authoritarian traits. That is not the same as authoritative ones. Those two things are very different.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:I hope you aren't suggesting that his work has added authority because he was a military officer and taught at a military academy. That would be very authoritarian of you!
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
FWIW Norman Dixon served in the Royal Engineers then studied psychology, becoming professor at University College London. He also taught at Sandhurst, the British Army's college
quote:If you want to see binary thinking look at some of the posts here. Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s. They have not responded with any reasoned counter arguments or any real counter arguments but with simple fury.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Where are you studying, by the way? Non Nuance University, Binary Ville, Black and White County, Minnesota?
quote:Random accusations of things I didn't do? Again?
Bibliophile: Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s.
quote:Consider this: Salazar was a white, European neo-fascist (or possibly neo-Nazi). Savimbi, Machel and Nelson Mandela too weren't any of those things.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:Random accusations of things I didn't do? Again?
Bibliophile: Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s.
If you think that Salazar was a better man than Machel, then you're clearly disturbed. But no, I'm not going to have a discussion about Angolan and Mozambican history with someone I have to explain first to what the problem with Salazarian colonialism is. This says more about you than about anything else.
quote:Whereas everybody else assumes that citing Dixon's credentials means that he has relevant experience and may actually know what he's talking about.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:I hope you aren't suggesting that his work has added authority because he was a military officer and taught at a military academy. That would be very authoritarian of you!
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
FWIW Norman Dixon served in the Royal Engineers then studied psychology, becoming professor at University College London. He also taught at Sandhurst, the British Army's college
quote:I would like to take Savimbi out of this sequence.
Sioni Sais: Consider this: Salazar was a white, European neo-fascist (or possibly neo-Nazi). Savimbi, Machel and Nelson Mandela too weren't any of those things.
quote:It is to laugh.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
. Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s. They have not responded with any reasoned counter arguments or any real counter arguments but with simple fury.
Agostinho Neto, Jonas Savimbi and Samora Machel were all men who used violence to take power in countries that had been poor and lacking in political freedom and managed to make those countries poorer and significantly less free. For all his many faults Salazar was clearly a better human being than all three of them and in this case he was in the right to oppose them.
The response has not been any reasoned nuanced argument that 'FRELIMO and the MPLA were better than the Portuguese because of xyz'. The response has simply been to call me mad and/or stupid and/or evil.
quote:I can see this discussion getting a little heated here so I've started a new thread in the purgatory section of the board.
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
You can say a lot, both pro and con, about Salazar and the Estado Novo, but that he/it was in any meaningful sense (neo-)Nazi? Would someone like to attempt to justify that particular label?
quote:I didn't say Salazar was a better human being than Mandela. I think they were both flawed human beings who had good points and bad points.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:Consider this: Salazar was a white, European neo-fascist (or possibly neo-Nazi). Savimbi, Machel and Nelson Mandela too weren't any of those things.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:Random accusations of things I didn't do? Again?
Bibliophile: Fanatical anti-colonialists like LeRoc, lilBuddha and Firenze who are reacting to the suggestion that Portugal may have been in the right in the colonial wars of the 1960s and 70s.
If you think that Salazar was a better man than Machel, then you're clearly disturbed. But no, I'm not going to have a discussion about Angolan and Mozambican history with someone I have to explain first to what the problem with Salazarian colonialism is. This says more about you than about anything else.
quote:This is Portugal we are talking about. I lived and worked there for 23 years - it is a fascinating country and they are wonderful people, but I don't think even the most patriotic of Portuguese would claim that time-keeping is their strong point. Even a dictator can't change that ...
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You really are a tool, Bibliophile. Bet Salizar made the trains run on time too.
quote:Agreed.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Bibliophile, you are either not very bright or pretty stupid. I'm not sure which.
quote:Blow it out your ass. Sideways. With shrapnel.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Where are you studying, by the way? Non Nuance University, Binary Ville, Black and White County, Minnesota?
quote:I wouldn't say that communism is the sole source of evil in the world, far from it.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:This isn't about who is the greatest bastard in history, but what makes the greatest bastard. And the answer is communism.
Originally posted by Firenze:
One underlying question - what is the precise utility of this game of Who Was the Greater Bastard in History? Is it a proxy war for our own beliefs and ideology? An attempt to understand the world that Figure X left us? What?
Communism is Teh Evilz no matter what.
Fascism isn't that bad unless it gets too crazy with the white peoples.
Colonialism is fine because it prevents Communism.
Communism is truly horrible, bad, nasty, rotten and not nice full stop. Even if it is a reaction to theft, murder, rape, slavery, torture, oppression and kicking puppies.
Kicking puppies is a positive good, if those puppies are communist.
quote:So please tell us which colonial administrations were so legitimate that they should never have been challenged by any notion of democracy however mild. Then we can invite the representatives of those colonized to tell you to go and fuck yourself.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
hostility to colonialism and arguing along the lines that colonial administrations are always illegitimate
quote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Really? So, then, educate me. How is colonialism good?
quote:Colonialism brought medicine, literacy, modern systems of law and government, trade, transportation, railways, the wheel etc to large parts of the world. People sometimes complain that the the progress was not enough, but there was economic and social progress where before there was none.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Edited to address the x-post: Use your words, Bibliophobe. Your own words.
quote:With only a modicum of rape, pillage, racial cleansing, war, disease, slavery, raw resource stealing, deliberate mass addiction, economic blackmail, piracy and so on.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Colonialism brought medicine, literacy, modern systems of law and government, trade, transportation, railways, the wheel etc to large parts of the world. People sometimes complain that the the progress was not enough, but there was economic and social progress where before there was none.
quote:Well you would say that, wouldn't you, as a citizen of the world's largest surviving and most thoroughly dominant colonial empire.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:Colonialism brought medicine, literacy, modern systems of law and government, trade, transportation, railways, the wheel etc to large parts of the world. People sometimes complain that the the progress was not enough, but there was economic and social progress where before there was none.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Edited to address the x-post: Use your words, Bibliophobe. Your own words.
quote:Probably untrue
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Don't forget buying a slave girl so the whiskey maker could watch cannibals eat her.
quote:As mr cheesy illustrates, not without some serious baggage.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:Colonialism brought medicine, literacy, modern systems of law and government, trade, transportation, railways, the wheel etc to large parts of the world. People sometimes complain that the the progress was not enough, but there was economic and social progress where before there was none.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Edited to address the x-post: Use your words, Bibliophobe. Your own words.
quote:Lake Wobegon. Yes, indeed. A lovely portrait of an ideal rural town.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Was Lake Begone in Minnesota?
quote:That's nice to hear. Although the locals in Northfield are quick to tell you that their town chased his gang off - killed some, and jailed a couple more.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If so, I have heard rather more about it than Jesse James
quote:Your gracious apology is accepted.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Whatever the case, we seem agreed on other aspects so I'm more than happy to retract my inadvertent calumny against your home-state
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:It's not bad. My wife is from there. I mean, it's nothing to compare to Minneapolis, but it's a nice place to visit.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think I knew St Paul was in Minnesota. I'm sure it's a very fine place.
quote:Undoubtedly - but we've probably derailed this thread enough. It's really about Bibliophlle being an ass, isn't it?
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Minnesota Vikings. There. That's something else I've heard of. Should there be more?
quote:William was clearly more legitimate a ruler because he won.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, I'm not about to take up arms against Cameron nor would I advocate anyone else doing so ... but you've criticised Washington and the Founding Fathers of your own country for rebelling against George III ... which is fine by me as I often tease right-wing Americans about that ... but by the same token the Jacobites would have considered themselves the legitimate monarchy here rather than the Hanoverians ...
How far back do you want to go?
Was William the Conqueror any more or less legitimate a ruler than the Harold he deposed?.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:Despite the point of jbohn's original post being that bibliophile is not American?
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Any way, this is meant to be a thread about Bibliophile but I've found myself enjoying a tangential discussion with his more nuanced countrymen.
quote:We regret it, as well.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Minnesotans are thoroughly awesome people and it was a great regret that it didn't make the list of destinations when I was in North America.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
quote:I don't know why did you? Normally I don't discuss personal information about myself on forums like this and I have been amused by some of the wrong speculation that has been going on. However it seems to be getting a bit silly now so just for the record I'm from the UK and I vote UKIP.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Gosh. So why did I assume he was from the US?
quote:Well there's a surprise. You are also about 19 and studying politics/theology at a redbrick university, right?
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
However it seems to be getting a bit silly now so just for the record I'm from the UK and I vote UKIP.
quote:Ah, that must be why the old moron-meter exploded when it saw your posts. More evidence that most 'kippers are racist and thick as a hod full of bricks.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I don't know why did you? Normally I don't discuss personal information about myself on forums like this and I have been amused by some of the wrong speculation that has been going on. However it seems to be getting a bit silly now so just for the record I'm from the UK and I vote UKIP.
quote:And why did Americans assume he was a Brit? Because no one wishes to be responsible for producing him.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Gosh. So why did I assume he was from the US?
quote:Gosh gee whiz - I never met a real live, self confessed, practising and unrepentant Ukipper before. So you're not just a media hoax?
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:I don't know why did you? Normally I don't discuss personal information about myself on forums like this and I have been amused by some of the wrong speculation that has been going on. However it seems to be getting a bit silly now so just for the record I'm from the UK and I vote UKIP.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Gosh. So why did I assume he was from the US?
quote:I can see it now with you in your armchair reading the Daily Mail and an Alf Garnett poster in the background.
Bibliophile posted:
I'm from the UK and I vote UKIP.
quote:
lilBuddha
And why did Americans assume he was a Brit? Because no one wishes to be responsible for producing him.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:Don't forget Kermit.
In fairness the USA has Donald Trump, Sarah Palin and Ted Cruz and so we should accept our fair share of muppets [/QB]
quote:And a child of deano?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:Well there's a surprise. You are also about 19 and studying politics/theology at a redbrick university, right?
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
However it seems to be getting a bit silly now so just for the record I'm from the UK and I vote UKIP.
quote:Thinking oneself amusing is not the definition of a sense of humour.
Originally posted by Albertus:
That's a terrible slur. At least deano has a sense of humour.
quote:Haven't they suffered enough?
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I apologise unreservedly to all US posters for assuming Bibli-oaf-fool was one of theirs.
I don't know what I can do to make amends.
Perhaps I should emigrate.
quote:No no, be fair ( I know, fair to deano? why? I must be getting generous in my old age). I've known him once or twice to turn things into jokes against himself. Bibliophile would never do that.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Thinking oneself amusing is not the definition of a sense of humour.
Originally posted by Albertus:
That's a terrible slur. At least deano has a sense of humour.
quote:Moreover, deano generally posts offensively when he's pissed (check it: often after "stop tap" as we call it in Wales). Bibliophile OTOH is stone cold sober. Quite possibly not even old enough to drink legally, despite his protestations about voting UKIP.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:No no, be fair ( I know, fair to deano? why? I must be getting generous in my old age). I've known him once or twice to turn things into jokes against himself. Bibliophile would never do that.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Thinking oneself amusing is not the definition of a sense of humour.
Originally posted by Albertus:
That's a terrible slur. At least deano has a sense of humour.
quote:Bibliophile takes after his mother.
Originally posted by Albertus:
That's a terrible slur. At least deano has a sense of humour.
quote:They have a different "feel" to their posts. Bibliophile makes me want to punch something. Deano makes me want to take a shower.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Thinking oneself amusing is not the definition of a sense of humour.
Originally posted by Albertus:
That's a terrible slur. At least deano has a sense of humour.
quote:The digestive biscuits were for you. Bibliotool doesn't seem to be able to handle anything solid yet.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Farley's rusks, even.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:Ah, so it's just that he never wants to.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Politics I can discuss in a more dispassionate way when I want to.
quote:How can one discuss politics when the commies suppress all reasonable debate?
Originally posted by mousethief:
From the Styx thread about BPh's 8th commandment warning:
quote:Ah, so it's just that he never wants to.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Politics I can discuss in a more dispassionate way when I want to.
quote:What I didn't know, until today was who wrote it and moreover the context.
The line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through the middle of every human heart and through all human hearts.
quote:John Calvin's Beard man, but we're not taking him here!
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
He doesn't have to emigrate to the US.
quote:You sent us Justin Bieber. You owe us.
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:John Calvin's Beard man, but we're not taking him here!
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
He doesn't have to emigrate to the US.
quote:We sent you Celine Dion. We're more than square.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:You sent us Justin Bieber. You owe us.
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:John Calvin's Beard man, but we're not taking him here!
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
He doesn't have to emigrate to the US.
quote:Both are crimes against good taste. But you just might be showing your age by differentiating them.
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:We sent you Celine Dion. We're more than square.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:You sent us Justin Bieber. You owe us.
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:John Calvin's Beard man, but we're not taking him here!
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
He doesn't have to emigrate to the US.
quote:You can take her back, too. Call me when you send us someone --- what's the word? --- good.
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
We sent you Celine Dion. We're more than square.
quote:There are quite a few posts here from lefties talking about how terrible the right wing is, how anyone to the right of David Cameron is the incarnation of evil and implying that anyone who supports right wing policies is either corrupt, stupid or ignorant.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think that Bibliophile cares about the evils of Communism. I'm not convinced that he gives a fuck about the people who were killed in its name or in the name of any other ideologies. It's just a childish little game of "let's rile up those lefties by calling everything slightly related to Communism bad and everything else good". But it ends up saying a lot more about him than about us.
quote:You should have no problem linking to an example then.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:There are quite a few posts here from lefties talking about how terrible the right wing is, how anyone to the right of David Cameron is the incarnation of evil and implying that anyone who supports right wing policies is either corrupt, stupid or ignorant.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think that Bibliophile cares about the evils of Communism. I'm not convinced that he gives a fuck about the people who were killed in its name or in the name of any other ideologies. It's just a childish little game of "let's rile up those lefties by calling everything slightly related to Communism bad and everything else good". But it ends up saying a lot more about him than about us.
quote:I never find your posts difficult to comprehend Sioni Sais. Often highly pompous yes, difficult to comprehend no.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Arguing with Bibliophile brings to mind a quote of Ed Koch, late mayor of New York. He said, with feeling, that "I can explain it to you, but I cannot comprehend it for you".
quote:Not from me.
Bibliophile: There are quite a few posts here from lefties talking about how terrible the right wing is, how anyone to the right of David Cameron is the incarnation of evil and implying that anyone who supports right wing policies is either corrupt, stupid or ignorant.
quote:It depends which standards you want to set for yourself. "Someone said that Cameron is evil, so I can do the same with the left wing" isn't a particularly high one.
Bibliophile: Any yet when a right winger says some unflattering things about lefty thinking you assume its a wind up.
quote:Except that's not what I'm doing. I'm giving my honest opinions.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:It depends which standards you want to set for yourself. "Someone said that Cameron is evil, so I can do the same with the left wing" isn't a particularly high one.
Bibliophile: Any yet when a right winger says some unflattering things about lefty thinking you assume its a wind up.
quote:A couple of examples here
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:You should have no problem linking to an example then.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:There are quite a few posts here from lefties talking about how terrible the right wing is, how anyone to the right of David Cameron is the incarnation of evil and implying that anyone who supports right wing policies is either corrupt, stupid or ignorant.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think that Bibliophile cares about the evils of Communism. I'm not convinced that he gives a fuck about the people who were killed in its name or in the name of any other ideologies. It's just a childish little game of "let's rile up those lefties by calling everything slightly related to Communism bad and everything else good". But it ends up saying a lot more about him than about us.
quote:And stupid ones at that. I guess that whether you're sincere or not about what you are saying here becomes a rhetorical question rather fast. Let me just say that I doubt it, and that playing childish games seems to be a more important motivator for you. What I can say is that I haven't seen evidence of any ability to analyse complex situations like the end of apartheid or Franco's regime, and also that I'm not convinced of your concern for the victims of various ideologies. The latter reason is why I called you here.
Bibliophile: Except that's not what I'm doing. I'm giving my honest opinions.
quote:Do you know, I'm getting to like you. Admittedly, it's in the way that I like some small, yappy dogs who have the gift of boundless energy. The downside is much the same as they too piss and crap all over the place.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:I never find your posts difficult to comprehend Sioni Sais. Often highly pompous yes, difficult to comprehend no.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Arguing with Bibliophile brings to mind a quote of Ed Koch, late mayor of New York. He said, with feeling, that "I can explain it to you, but I cannot comprehend it for you".
quote:Did you actually mistake posters for posts? While I'll be delighted to read mr cheesy on the Protevangelium of James, or lb discussing the best way to cure hiccoughs, that has nothing to do with either of them allegedly labelling people fascists.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
A couple of examples here
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=recent_user_posts;u=00003330
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=recent_user_posts;u=00014333
quote:Oh all right then. Rush. Need I say more?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:You can take her back, too. Call me when you send us someone --- what's the word? --- good.
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
We sent you Celine Dion. We're more than square.
quote:Oh, aye, he'll do.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Bruce Cockburn. All is forgiven.
quote:I guess this would be a bad time to bring up Anne Murray.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Oh, aye, he'll do.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Bruce Cockburn. All is forgiven.
multi-national thermonuclear strike aborted
quote:threat level Severe/DEFCON 2
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:I guess this would be a bad time to bring up Anne Murray.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Oh, aye, he'll do.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Bruce Cockburn. All is forgiven.
multi-national thermonuclear strike aborted
quote:Good point. We remain deeply in their debt.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Bruce Cockburn. All is forgiven.
quote:Whatever
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
As it happens, I don't make a habit of calling people fascist. I think that describing IDS as a fascist is to misuse the term - there is quite a distance between being uncaring and slipping into fascism.
But I do honestly believe that Biblophile is a fascist. At very least he is an apologist for fascism, but I believe his fascination with the politics of the strong, of making apologies for those who protect their chosen "master races" whilst denigrating those labelled as unworthy is characteristic of fascists.
There is a dramatic difference between fascism and Marxism, in that fascism is in and of itself an ideology of the strong, seeking to retain and perpetuate their unearned plutocratic status. In contrast, Communism is an ideology of the mass and exploited workers, seeking to get what they deserve in a world which only wants to put them down.
Which is why fascism can never be apologised for, whereas Marxism has some noble ideals, albeit ones which are very rarely realised.
quote:Attention whore.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:Whatever
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
As it happens, I don't make a habit of calling people fascist. I think that describing IDS as a fascist is to misuse the term - there is quite a distance between being uncaring and slipping into fascism.
But I do honestly believe that Biblophile is a fascist. At very least he is an apologist for fascism, but I believe his fascination with the politics of the strong, of making apologies for those who protect their chosen "master races" whilst denigrating those labelled as unworthy is characteristic of fascists.
There is a dramatic difference between fascism and Marxism, in that fascism is in and of itself an ideology of the strong, seeking to retain and perpetuate their unearned plutocratic status. In contrast, Communism is an ideology of the mass and exploited workers, seeking to get what they deserve in a world which only wants to put them down.
Which is why fascism can never be apologised for, whereas Marxism has some noble ideals, albeit ones which are very rarely realised.
quote:Devastating comeback.
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Whatever
quote:Insult to whores everywhere.
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:Attention whore.
Originally posted by Bibliofool:
Whatever
quote:Not my cuppa, but not abominations.
Originally posted by Firenze:
So. Kate and Anne McGarrigle?
quote:Now, we are talking.
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I like Kobo Town.
quote:Je ne les connais pas, mais je les aime.*
Originally posted by LeRoc:
And Les Cowboys Fringants (does francophone Canada count here?)
quote:There are quite a few examples of people saying unpleasant things about Conservatives, especially Thatcher and Cameron. Though, I'm not going to do his work for him by digging them out.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Did you actually mistake posters for posts?
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
A couple of examples here
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=recent_user_posts;u=00003330
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=recent_user_posts;u=00014333
...
Do better.
quote:But mocking someone's French is OK?
orfeo: Hell is not really the place to be performing a series of reviews of everyone's preferred performers from there.
quote:Connaissais.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Je ne les connais pas, mais je les aime.*
Originally posted by LeRoc:
And Les Cowboys Fringants (does francophone Canada count here?)
*I did not know of them, but I like them.
)
quote:For what? Saying it wrong? (everyone does)
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Sorry, Saskatchewan.
quote:Saskatoon is the city; Saskatchewan is the province.
Originally posted by Snags:
Sass-ka-toon or similar unless my friend who comes from there is having me on.
quote:You're a real funny gal, Firenze.
Originally posted by Firenze:
It's pronounced 'Chumley'.
quote:ME!
Originally posted by mousethief:
This thread has gone to Hell. Anybody want a Mousethief Cooler or some hot cashews?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
