quote:

---

Through great folly. Rationalism leads to Protestantism leads to atheism. Mass immigration, Freemasonry and neo-liberalism is finishing the job.

---

These are his layers of Hell. All who are not Orthodox will end up in Hell, but the farther you are from the big O, the lower down you fall.

You do not remember his verbally* polishing Putin and the Patriarch's arses in the Pussy Riot thread?


*Lack of proximity preventing his literally doing so.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Freemasonry?

What's next?
 

---

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
Zzzzzzzz!
 

---

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It seems to me that much of Europe is going non-Christian all by itself without much help from the Muslims. According to the Eurobarometer survey of 2010 while 72% self-identified as Christian only 51% believe in God. Christian but non-theist? And only 2% of the EU population is Muslim.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It seems to me that much of Europe is going non-Christian all by itself without much help from the Muslims. According to the Eurobarometer survey of 2010 while 72% self-identified as Christian only 51% believe in God. Christian but non-theist? And only 2% of the EU population is Muslim.

---

I find that figure highly suspiscious.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
[L]ook how much trouble they [Muslims] ca[u]se. It is a religion which is unable to live at peace anywhere, which is not surprising for from its very inception it was a religion which was spread by the sword.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Political and cultural conquest is in the very DNA of Islam, not Christianity.

---

quote:

---

I myself have as vocal as any here against meddling in the Middle-East. The main culprit there is the USA, a complete basketcase.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Political and cultural conquest is in the very DNA of Islam, not Christianity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
It's not Wilson's hiccup, it's Winston's hiccup. And the animosities stirred up by the betrayal of Lawrence of Arabia cannot be laid at the door of the US at all. Physician, heal thyself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Political and cultural conquest is in the very DNA of Islam, not Christianity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tortuf:
AO, I have found admitting when I get things wrong to make the times when I get my ass chewed actually shorter and more constructive.

---

quote:

---

I'm not going to tell you if your views are correct or not. You have plenty of help with that.

I will say that if you ever get over the shock and anger of being called to this board, you might read your responses here and note a certain lack of careful craftsmanship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Studies show that practising Christians will be outnumbered by practising Muslims in Britain in just a few decades. (This is based on the census record of Muslims already here and their offspring, not future immigrants.) Yet the problem is not a surplus of Muslims, but a deficit of Christians. Were the percentage of committed Christians in the population much higher then the arrival of a few million more Muslims wouldn't be such a cause for religio-cultural anxiety, would it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I thought that quite a lot of Western Muslims stop going to mosque, and become quite secularized, esp. the younger generations. But of course, some young Muslims also become more conservative, e.g. start wearing the headscarf, when their mother did not. There is going to be a very wide spectrum.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I thought that quite a lot of Western Muslims stop going to mosque, and become quite secularized, esp. the younger generations. But of course, some young Muslims also become more conservative, e.g. start wearing the headscarf, when their mother did not. There is going to be a very wide spectrum.

---

You're right that there's likely to be a wide spectrum, but what I've read is that a high percentage of young Muslims are actually more religious and/or radical than their parents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
"Betrayal of Lawrence of Arabia": Is that him betraying the Arabs he'd fought for? Or his gov't betraying him and the Arabs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
It's not Wilson's hiccup, it's Winston's hiccup. And the animosities stirred up by the betrayal of Lawrence of Arabia cannot be laid at the door of the US at all. Physician, heal thyself.

---

Ad Nauseam is not British, AFAIK.

---

quote:

---

62% of 16-24 year olds feel they have as much in common with non-Muslims as Muslims, compared to 71% of 55+ year olds.

---

quote:

---

there is also considerable diversity amongst Muslims, with many adopting a more secular approach to their religion. The majority of Muslims feel they have as much, if not more, in common with non=Muslims in Britain as with Muslims abroad. There is clearly a conflict within British Islam between a moderate majority that accepts the norms of Western democracy and a growing minority that does not. For these reasons, we should be wary of treating the entire Muslim population as a monolith with special needs that are different to the rest of the population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Dark Knight

Of course, the non-religious will outnumber both practising Christians and practising Muslims in Britain before long. Indeed, by some definitions I'm sure they already do. But many of the individuals on Youtube (and perhaps Ad Orientem too) are less worried about a significantly secular Europe than about a significantly Muslim Europe. In any case, this thread is about Islam rather than pluralism.

---

quote:

---

I don't think British Islam is likely to look vastly different in only 20 years' time, TBH.

---

quote:

---

British Christianity doesn't appear to have changed hugely over the past 20 years, although some of the trends that were apparent 20 years ago have intensified.

---

quote:

---

This question of trends could well apply to Islam too. Of course, there is always the unexpected; 9/11 was a game changer in certain respects.

---

quote:

---

However, I accept that Islam, like Christianity, is diverse, and that not that all Muslims are anti-Western, or anti-Christian, or whatever. I know Muslims who are positive about Christians and Christianity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Right - so you're quoting a 2007 "newspaper" report in the Metro* based on a report from the Policy Exchange think tank, a right wing think tank set up in 2002 by Michael Gove, Francis Maude and Nicholas Boles?

---

quote:

---

I work in inner city London and have been based in Tower Hamlets until recently, the only local authority where Muslims outnumber Christians at 35% compared to 27%. I am far more likely to encounter Muslims who are secularlised rather than fundamentalists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Actually, the growth of Charismatic Christianity in Europe (fastest growing religion in France), the continued march of secularism, the reaction of conservatives who increasingly align themselves with a particularly fundamentalist form of Protestantism/Catholicism, the progress and different barriers in regards to issues such as feminism and same-sex marriage (and too many others to mention) mean that Christianity is quite different than it was 20 years ago. And will continue to be. So if those are the trends that have intensified, I agree that they have, and that they have exercised considerable change - which for some reason you haven't articulated, you reject.

---

quote:

---

The point is not how Muslims in European (or Australian, or North American, or other) societies relate to Christians, but how both Muslims and Christians relate to plural, secular societies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
British are part of the species Homo Europeanensis and thus examples of things Brits did are examples of things Europeans did. It wasn't just Brits at the table at Versailles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
British are part of the species Homo Europeanensis and thus examples of things Brits did are examples of things Europeans did. It wasn't just Brits at the table at Versailles.

---

Fair enough. And apologies to any Finnish people reading this thread, I'm sure you don't want him any more than the rest of us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
You really don't know much about Tower Hamlets. It has the second highest unemployment rate in London with all the related inner city poverty levels. It also has some of the highest paid people - Canary Wharf is in Tower Hamlets.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
British are part of the species Homo Europeanensis and thus examples of things Brits did are examples of things Europeans did. It wasn't just Brits at the table at Versailles.

---

Fair enough. And apologies to any Finnish people reading this thread, I'm sure you don't want him any more than the rest of us.

---

Yeah! Very droll. I'm sure you know nothing at all about the Finns and what we think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Why is it seen as such a threat that Muslims outnumber Christians?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
You really don't know much about Tower Hamlets. It has the second highest unemployment rate in London with all the related inner city poverty levels. It also has some of the highest paid people - Canary Wharf is in Tower Hamlets.

---

True, I don't know much about it. But the proximity of these two groups of people is perhaps not insignificant. Having a highly visible group of rich, secular people on your doorstep may have an influence on your own aspirations and world view. Or not. In any case, it makes Tower Hamlets distinctive rather than representative.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Why is it seen as such a threat that Muslims outnumber Christians? I just don't get that. Is it a threat that atheists outnumber Christians (they do already)? Is it a threat that vegetarians outnumber meat-eaters?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
British are part of the species Homo Europeanensis and thus examples of things Brits did are examples of things Europeans did. It wasn't just Brits at the table at Versailles.

---

Fair enough. And apologies to any Finnish people reading this thread, I'm sure you don't want him any more than the rest of us.

---

Yeah! Very droll. I'm sure you know nothing at all about the Finns and what we think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
5) They beat the hell out of the Russians in 1940.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Actually, the growth of Charismatic Christianity in Europe (fastest growing religion in France), the continued march of secularism, the reaction of conservatives who increasingly align themselves with a particularly fundamentalist form of Protestantism/Catholicism, the progress and different barriers in regards to issues such as feminism and same-sex marriage (and too many others to mention) mean that Christianity is quite different than it was 20 years ago. And will continue to be. So if those are the trends that have intensified, I agree that they have, and that they have exercised considerable change - which for some reason you haven't articulated, you reject.

---

I was referring specifically to the British context. Be that as it may, I tend to look for continuities rather than huge breaks in practice or culture which lead to momentous changes. Charismatic Christianity has developed over time rather than bursting onto the scene and suddenly spoiling the party. Similarly, the starting line for secularisation in British culture has been put all over the place by scholars; many don't see it as a recent phenomenon which rapidly changed everything.

---

quote:

---

In the British case church decline represents the ongoing majority trend, even if individual evangelical churches may be growing. And AFAICS struggles over women priests or same sex marriage are struggles about reducing the tension between the church and the wider culture. This tension existed long before these particular issues become important, and is likely to exist long after they've been more or less resolved.

---

quote:

---

Regarding 9/11, commentators tend to say that it had a significant negative effect on British attitudes towards Islam and Muslims - although there's always been a degree of negativity there.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

The point is not how Muslims in European (or Australian, or North American, or other) societies relate to Christians, but how both Muslims and Christians relate to plural, secular societies.

---

True. And I'm sure that most Muslims will just get on with their lives and not spend too much time ranting about pluralism and secularisation.

---

quote:

---

The sociologist Eric Kaufmann has an interesting theory about the eventual rise of religious fundamentalism of all types in Europe due to the more rapid demographic collapse among the non-religious and the moderately religious. Now that situation would be a huge change from what we see today (although I would argue that it's roots could be found in current realities), but it wouldn't happen for a long time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
5) They beat the hell out of the Russians in 1940.

---

Well, depends on your definition of "beat the hell out of". The Finns maintained their independence, but went to the negotiating table in March 1940 after Soviet troops broke through Finnish defences. The 1940 Moscow Treaty ceded approximately 10% of their territory, with about 20% of their industrial capacity, to the Soviet Union. In the process creating 400,000 refugees. One would think that a nation where over 10% of the population were refugees within the last century would be more sympathetic towards people fleeing war.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Political and cultural conquest is in the very DNA of Islam, not Christianity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
No, you're right. Those 400,000 Finns were not living in an active war zone, just an area about to be occupied by a foreign power as part of a peace treaty that stopped it being an active war zone, a foreign power that no one expected to treat them well (Stalin had a reputation for being unpleasant to his own people, how much worse would it be for foreigners?). Whereas the Syrian refugees are both fleeing an active war zone where their homes have been destroyed by bombs and shells, and fleeing an unpleasant political regime (whether ISIL or Assad makes very little difference). Not the same at all, the Finns had a chance to collect some possessions to take with them, the Syrians had already had most of what they own blown to bits.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Well, some of them were likely Prots, so not quite God's Children, but closer to accepting the One True Variation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Don't lecture me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
People having to flee their homes to save their lives (or, at least avoid living under an oppressive dictatorship) have a lot in common. Far more in common with each other than they have with those of us who have never had to run for our lives. It doesn't matter whether they're internally displaced, like the majority of Syrians and the Finns we're talking about, or whether they flee across borders to other nations. They're all basically the same - human beings, families wanting nothing more than to live peaceful lives where they can raise their children in safety, with that simple desire ripped from them by external forces beyond their control. The differences - whether those forces were politicians signing away their homes to the Soviet Union to save the rest of the nation from Soviet domination, militant Islamic forces of ISIL or the opposing secular regime of Assad, famine or the impact of Western neo-colonial trade practices - are secondary.

Unless you feel like making a case that non-Europeans do not have the same desires and aspirations, do not have the same rights, or are not quite human.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You do realise this only confirms your xenophobia, prejudice and racism?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You do realise this only confirms your xenophobia, prejudice and racism?

---

What? It doesn't matter then that the article is true?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
America should take them. They're the ones who were desperate to het rid of Saddam and Assad and letting ISIS lose. Why should we have to pick up the bill and let the Yanks off scott free?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You do realise this only confirms your xenophobia, prejudice and racism?

---

What? It doesn't matter then that the article is true?

---

I did not read your link. Your words are enough to damn you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You do realise this only confirms your xenophobia, prejudice and racism?

---

What? It doesn't matter then that the article is true?

---

I did not read your link. Your words are enough to damn you.

---

I see. You're not bothered about the truth then. Fair enough.

---

quote:

---

"We have discussed with the students the ways and act in different cultures. No one, however, asked to change how girls and no dress code has been given," College on the Facebook page is written.

"The discussion with some students have come across and the use of the open, clothes can be confusing for some. There, it is not tried to influence anyone's getting dressed," writing is added.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
http://www.savonsanomat.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/keskustelu-kaula-aukoista-kuohahti/2132294

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The point is, we can alteady see the negative impact muslim immigration is having on our country

---

quote:

---

With most not having been registered in the first country they arrived in, not having papers

---

quote:

---

most being men of fighting age

---

quote:

---

there are bound to be some ISIS members amongst them.

---

quote:

---

When Norway was on a terrorist alert some time ago it came to light that it was because ISIS was sending some people along with the refugees to kill an average Norwegen family and film it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This is perhaps to do with the problem of pluralism. One argument the sociologists use is that whereas religious coherence and certainty are bolstered when everyone belongs to one religion, pluralism tends to undermine religious coherence and certainty, because individuals are surrounded by competing faith claims, and thus end up feeling that the various religious groups are all more likely to be wrong than any particular one of them to be right.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When Norway was on a terrorist alert some time ago it came to light that it was because ISIS was sending some people along with the refugees to kill an average Norwegen family and film it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You do realise this only confirms your xenophobia, prejudice and racism?

---

What? It doesn't matter then that the article is true?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You do realise this only confirms your xenophobia, prejudice and racism?

---

What? It doesn't matter then that the article is true?

---

AFAICT it's an article in a website publsihed by a newspaper. That's no guarantee of veracity in the first instance, let alone truthful conclusions.

Moreover if it's your preferred reading then it's probably on a par with our Daily Mail or The Sun (as Keith Waterhouse put it many years ago: there are lies, damned lies and Sun exclusives).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Our Daily Telegraph is also a respected broadsheet but it represents views of the right-wing of the Conservative party. The Times, since Murdoch bought it, lost any reputation it may have had as the "Newspaper of Record" as it mixes news with editorial these days.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Our papers don't have any political affiliation.

---

quote:

---

Keskisuomalainen is published in broadsheet format.[6] The paper was the organ of the Centre Party until 1986 when it declared itself as "a newspaper in the centre".[3]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Our papers don't have any political affiliation.

---

Yeah, you can keep telling yourself that.
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Our papers don't have any political affiliation.

---

I'm going to let you into a secret, something you've clearly not noticed.

Newspapers are written and edited by people. And, they are read by people. People are political. What people write, what they decide will be good stories to publish, what they choose to read will be shaped in part by their political opinions. Therefore, newspapers (and TV/radio/internet news) will be political. It is unavoidable. And, if you don't recognise that your favourite newspapers are political that just shows that you are letting those papers inform your politics without even questioning it.

If you're happy with that, fine. Just practice saying "baaa" if you want to be a sheep following where the newspapers you read lead you.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I don't get this.

I come across this sort of thing a fair bit elsewhere on-line where, for better or worse, I've ended up engaging with RCs and Orthodox who hold very right-wing convictions and who come across as somewhat xenophobic to me when it comes to their views of Islam.

It leads to a kind of binary thinking - one of them accused me of being an 'enabler' ie. someone who tacitly aids and abets terrorism by taking a rather liberal line on things ...



Yes, it is difficult to combat terrorism and extremism within the context of a liberal democracy - as the UK found in Northern Ireland and as other countries have in other contexts. Terrorists, of whatever stripe, know that and it's in their interests to polarise opinions and get people arguing and disagreeing among themselves.

That applies just as much to Republican and Loyalist terrorists during the Northern Irish Troubles as it does to contemporary jihadists.

Of course ISIS will be looking for ways to exploit the current refugee crisis - as will people with no particular ideological axe to grind but who want to capitalise on opportunities to make money out of people seeking passage across the Med' ...

There will be good, upright, innocent people among those seeking admission into Europe as well as rogues ... and all points in-between ... just as there would be if the boot was on the other foot.

I often find myself wondering what my right-wing or fundie sparring partners are holding up as a solution - do they want to expel all Muslims from Europe or the US - as Spain did at the time of Les Reyes Catolicos?



They don't seem to have any more rational 'take' than, 'Islam is evil ... it was founded on the sword - we don't want it here ...'

Whether they like it or not, they still have to co-exist with many millions of Muslims world-wide - just as they have to co-exist with agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Protestants (or Catholics), and even ... cue creepy music, Freemasons and anyone else they don't happen to agree with.

What a wierd and lonely paranoid universe they must inhabit ...


 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
There would be nothing to stop someone from ISIS gaining entry to any country in the world in a legitimate way - either with a visa or whatever documents are required - and then carrying out a terrorist atrocity.

Just suppose I was some kind of nut-case and had a thing against Finland and Finnish people (I don't of course) then there'd be nothing to stop me entering Finland on holiday, say, and then taking the opportunity to get hold of some of kind of means for attacking Finnish people ...

Mass-migration creates the kind of turmoil that ISIS could exploit - but they didn't need to do that when it came to gunning down holiday makers in Tunisia.

Our 7/7 bombers here were indigenous. They were British. So are the many hundreds who have travelled from Britain to fight for ISIS. The issue is radicalisation.

What are you proposing, Ad Orientem? That the UK (and Belgium, France, Norway, Italy, the US, Australia and any other country with an Islamic diaspora) should forcibly round-up and debut their entire Muslim populations purely on the basis that a small proportion of them might be terrorists or ISIS supporters?

If there were to be a way of 'enabling' terrorism than that would be it - because it would instantly radicalise people who had previously not been militant in any way, shape or form.

These are complex issues. We should be working with those within the Islamic community who deplore jihadist terrorism - or are you saying that such people don't actually exist but they're only pretending to be opposed to ISIS and jihadism in general?

What's your solution, Ad Orientem? Other than closing all borders and carrying out pre-emptive and deplorable oppression against law-abiding Muslims who are already citizens of so many Western countries?



How would you go about turning the clock back to some kind of imagined 15th century European Christendom idyll? It couldn't be done even if you wanted to - and can't you see that it would involve some pretty oppressive measures even if it were to be attempted?

You'll be telling me that Ivan the Terrible had the right idea next ...


 

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Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :
 
My dad was a Bangladeshi Muslim. He moved to the UK in the 1960s to work in the NHS. My mum is a Roman Catholic who has lived her whole life in a small market town in Lancashire; she was married young then divorced and therefore estranged from the Church.

My sister and brother and myself weren't brought up in any formal faith tradition. Both my parents were influenced by their own faiths, but neither chose to practice them, or required us to.

I was baptised Catholic 3 days before my 15th birthday, together with my sister who was 17 at the time. My brother was and is an atheist.

I always describe my father as a Muslim secular humanist. Medicine - being an NHS doctor - was the faith and culture he chose and he lived it out absolutely.

After his death last December, his funeral was a Requiem Mass and he is buried in the "Catholic section" of the cemetery. I think he'd be happy with that - he used to say he'd heard Mass in more countries and more cathedrals than most Catholics. And when he and my mother were staying with us, he'd always come to Mass with us.

Preparing for his funeral, it occurred to me that most of my female Muslim relatives would have their heads covered, so I got my first mantilla. It felt important that we share that head-covering tradition. I've continued to veil for Mass since then, but now I even find myself wanting to cover my head for other occasions - or indeed for every day. But I haven't started doing it because I'm not sure how people would react.

My son is in Year 5 and we've started looking at secondary schools. one of the nearest Catholic Secondaries is in Tower Hamlets. I asked other parents at my son's school why we don't send more of our children there. I was told that while the school takes approximately 30% Catholics, it also has a high intake of "people from a very different background - because of the area, you know?" Of course, from my perspective this is an advantage rather than a disadvantage.

What has this got to do with anything? Well first, this isn't all about theory and statistics - this is about real people's lives. And then life is complicated. And faith is complicated. And culture is complicated.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, indeed ...

Meanwhile, in one sense I'm quite gratified that Mousethief considers Protestants to be his relatives - but am I alone (or am I right?) to feel a tad aggrieved that he doesn't regard us as brothers and sisters but cousins?
 

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Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on :
 
To judge by things he has said previously on many other threads, Ad Orientem's position here is classic “Constantinianism” - that is, he has the kind of theology in which ideas like “Convert the king, convert the country” make sense. This is of course contrary to the Bible in which becoming a Christian depends on being 'born again' through personal faith rather than through the wishes of your state's rulers or through a token sprinkling of water in an infant baptism.

In that kind of theory it is of course extremely undesirable to face a different religion which has the same idea of a religious state – for example, Islam – and so AO really hates Islam. Though be it noted that using the word 'Islamophobe', like the common use of another '-ophobe' word, is not a reasoned argument but just petty irrational 'name-calling'.

Yes, orfeo, we all know religions don't have literal DNA, your sarcasm there is misplaced. The fact remains that if you go back to its beginnings, Islam starts out with Muhammad responding to exile from Mecca by getting an army together and fighting a war initially of desert-caravan-raiding (“Thou shalt not steal...”????) and eventually an outright assault which, as far as I can see, didn't lead to a major massacre only because Mecca surrendered.... And such military activity continued through Muhammed's life and beyond. Metaphorically (just in case orfeo hasn't got the point) that warlike attitude is absolutely the 'DNA' of Islam. Anybody seeking, in Islam, to be a 'fundamentalist' in the sense of going back to the original teaching will find that warlike approach, and the notion of establishing an 'Islamic' (and emphatically not 'pluralist') state to be the original teaching, and will be all too likely to follow it with predictable results like, for example, the creation of 'IS'.

Muhammad did not understand the basic idea that a religious state, whatever the religion, is going to end up defending and extending the religion by police/army force. If you allow freedom of belief, people will take advantage of it to refuse to believe the state religion; in which case either you end up with no state religion or a nominal state religion with little reality. Muslim teaching, including in the Quran, reflects Muhammad's failure of understanding on this issue. Yes, there is that teaching of 'let there be no compulsion in religion' – but Muhammad couldn't sustain that himself, whence the raising an army etc., in direct conflict with that teaching.

Christian (metaphorical) 'DNA' as expounded in the NT is very different. Christians who do the 'Christian state' thing are in direct conflict with the NT teaching – but may well end up looking remarkably like Islam, just with a different name on the banner. Sadly Muhammad seems only to have had the example of such Christians (ie, Christians like Ad Orientem) and so never properly appreciated the true way to the peace he aspired to.....
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Alan Cresswell: If you're happy with that, fine. Just practice saying "baaa" if you want to be a sheep following where the newspapers you read lead you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, in one sense I'm quite gratified that Mousethief considers Protestants to be his relatives - but am I alone (or am I right?) to feel a tad aggrieved that he doesn't regard us as brothers and sisters but cousins?

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quote:

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Christian (metaphorical) 'DNA' as expounded in the NT is very different.

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Bullshit. The OT is part of your Holy Book and so you get all the violence, incest and rubbish behaviour contained therein. And as has been mentioned, even should the Bible be considered a guide to only the pure and good and light, it has done a shitty job informing many, many of its disciples.
In fact, you contention makes Christianity so much the worse.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Heh heh ... but then, some Anglicans and Lutherans also believe in the PVM ... just to complicate matters ...

Anyhow, that's a tangent on this thread.

I notice Steve Langton is back with his customary comments on Constantinianism. In this instance, I'm inclined to agree with him that this is part of the problem here - but it ain't the only problem.

The problem is fundamentalism. RC and Orthodox fundamentalism is just as bad as the Protestant variety.

I wouldn't say that fundamentalism is the root of all evils - but I think it's a more fundamental problem than Constantinianism - the apparent Constantinianism in this case appears to derive from an underlying fundamentalism. The fundamentalism comes first, the Constantinianism comes second.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
The standard answer, of course, lilBuddha to the OT = some shitty stuff, NT = all lovely stuff, is that the NT trumps the Old (or the Hebrew scriptures if we don't want to call it that) ... but that in itself raises all manner of issues.

None of us get these things right all of the time ... I s'pose my 'take' would be that it's all about how we apply these things.

If we apply them in a xenophobic kind of way then clearly we're getting the wrong end of the stick.

As far as Ivan the Terrible goes, I've heard tell that there is some moves afoot (unofficially) within Russia to get the guy canonised ...

I suspect that's some kind of whacko crack-pot fundie view - I've met plenty of Orthodox, including clergy, who would consider Ivan to have been some kind of raving psychopath ...
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, indeed ...

Meanwhile, in one sense I'm quite gratified that Mousethief considers Protestants to be his relatives - but am I alone (or am I right?) to feel a tad aggrieved that he doesn't regard us as brothers and sisters but cousins?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Our papers don't have any political affiliation.

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quote:

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Keskisuomalainen is published in broadsheet format.[6] The paper was the organ of the Centre Party until 1986 when it declared itself as "a newspaper in the centre".[3]

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Bzzt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Yes, orfeo, we all know religions don't have literal DNA, your sarcasm there is misplaced. The fact remains that if you go back to its beginnings, Islam starts out with Muhammad responding to exile from Mecca by getting an army together and fighting a war initially of desert-caravan-raiding (“Thou shalt not steal...”????) and eventually an outright assault which, as far as I can see, didn't lead to a major massacre only because Mecca surrendered.... And such military activity continued through Muhammed's life and beyond. Metaphorically (just in case orfeo hasn't got the point) that warlike attitude is absolutely the 'DNA' of Islam. Anybody seeking, in Islam, to be a 'fundamentalist' in the sense of going back to the original teaching will find that warlike approach, and the notion of establishing an 'Islamic' (and emphatically not 'pluralist') state to be the original teaching, and will be all too likely to follow it with predictable results like, for example, the creation of 'IS'.

Muhammad did not understand the basic idea that a religious state, whatever the religion, is going to end up defending and extending the religion by police/army force. If you allow freedom of belief, people will take advantage of it to refuse to believe the state religion; in which case either you end up with no state religion or a nominal state religion with little reality. Muslim teaching, including in the Quran, reflects Muhammad's failure of understanding on this issue. Yes, there is that teaching of 'let there be no compulsion in religion' – but Muhammad couldn't sustain that himself, whence the raising an army etc., in direct conflict with that teaching.

Christian (metaphorical) 'DNA' as expounded in the NT is very different. Christians who do the 'Christian state' thing are in direct conflict with the NT teaching – but may well end up looking remarkably like Islam, just with a different name on the banner. Sadly Muhammad seems only to have had the example of such Christians (ie, Christians like Ad Orientem) and so never properly appreciated the true way to the peace he aspired to.....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Our papers don't have any political affiliation.

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quote:

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Keskisuomalainen is published in broadsheet format.[6] The paper was the organ of the Centre Party until 1986 when it declared itself as "a newspaper in the centre".[3]

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Bzzt.

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Note the use of he past tense "was". The papers over here aren't like they are in England.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There would be nothing to stop someone from ISIS gaining entry to any country in the world in a legitimate way - either with a visa or whatever documents are required - and then carrying out a terrorist atrocity.

Just suppose I was some kind of nut-case and had a thing against Finland and Finnish people (I don't of course) then there'd be nothing to stop me entering Finland on holiday, say, and then taking the opportunity to get hold of some of kind of means for attacking Finnish people ...

Mass-migration creates the kind of turmoil that ISIS could exploit - but they didn't need to do that when it came to gunning down holiday makers in Tunisia.

Our 7/7 bombers here were indigenous. They were British. So are the many hundreds who have travelled from Britain to fight for ISIS. The issue is radicalisation.

What are you proposing, Ad Orientem? That the UK (and Belgium, France, Norway, Italy, the US, Australia and any other country with an Islamic diaspora) should forcibly round-up and debut their entire Muslim populations purely on the basis that a small proportion of them might be terrorists or ISIS supporters?

If there were to be a way of 'enabling' terrorism than that would be it - because it would instantly radicalise people who had previously not been militant in any way, shape or form.

These are complex issues. We should be working with those within the Islamic community who deplore jihadist terrorism - or are you saying that such people don't actually exist but they're only pretending to be opposed to ISIS and jihadism in general?

What's your solution, Ad Orientem? Other than closing all borders and carrying out pre-emptive and deplorable oppression against law-abiding Muslims who are already citizens of so many Western countries?



How would you go about turning the clock back to some kind of imagined 15th century European Christendom idyll? It couldn't be done even if you wanted to - and can't you see that it would involve some pretty oppressive measures even if it were to be attempted?

You'll be telling me that Ivan the Terrible had the right idea next ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
we should prioritise Christian refugees, our brethren

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
One of the things I suggested, but which got the disapproval of other posters, was that we should prioritise Christian refugees, our brethren. No, it might not be politically correct but I don't a fuck about that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
One of the things I suggested, but which got the disapproval of other posters, was that we should prioritise Christian refugees, our brethren. No, it might not be politically correct but I don't a fuck about that.

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quote:

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You have heard it said "love your neighbour and hate your enemy". But I tell you: Love your enemies ... if you love those who love you, what reward will you get? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
One of the things I suggested, but which got the disapproval of other posters, was that we should prioritise Christian refugees, our brethren. No, it might not be politically correct but I don't a fuck about that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
America should take them. They're the ones who were desperate to het rid of Saddam and Assad and letting ISIS lose. Why should we have to pick up the bill and let the Yanks off scott free?

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
A Syrian Christian does not automatically share Finnish values just because they attend something called a "church" and read something called a "Bible". They will find your church services alien and strange just as they will find your food and your language and your social structures and customs strange.

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Moreover, they will find some, or indeed many, of the things that you do or accept as a cultural Finn, not just strange and alien, but bizarre and downright offensive.

Possibly more so than a secularised Muslim would, but you seem to have closed your mind to this possibility.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ad Orientem with a closed mind?

Perish the thought!

Meanwhile - on Mousethief's capacity for sarcasm and irony. Yes, I had noticed that. I suspect I overlooked it on this occasion as I wasn't tuned into his wavelength this time round ...



(Waits for Mousethief to post, 'No, I was deadly serious, you Protestants can all roast in Hell as far as I'm concerned, alongside all those Muslims, Freemasons and anyone who doesn't get up in the morning to roll around naked in the snow before getting into a red-hot sauna like those fine, upstanding, clean-living, clean minded and perfect Finns do ...')
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
It would be interesting to know which denomination Christian Syrian refugees are from, I suspect either RC or Syruac Orthodox.

I don't know how these would differ from Christians in Finland, however I don't think it is correct to assume anything about them.

The Middle East is a mess, in some parts thoroughly westernised with secularism pushing religion to the backseat, in places it is impossible to distinguish Arab Muslims from Arab Christians, in others the communities are quite separate.

Given that they are heading to Europe, I think it is a fairly safe bet that most of the refugees regard Europe as a place of peace rather than as the Great Satan. I would think that refugees heading to the EU because it is "Christian" (if indeed anyone thinks like this) may be more conservative and feel more out of place than secularised Muslims.

So I think it is highly unlikely that Muslims are coming with the intention to usher in a harsh form of Sharia.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I once worked for a university where some argued that in the prospectus we shouldn't show pictures of a particular former church building on campus in case it dissuaded potential students from Islamic countries from applying ...



The thing was, of course, potential Muslim students weren't bothered about that in the least. They knew they were applying for courses in an ostensibly Christian country and were quite expecting to see church buildings and former church buildings when they arrived.

No - I don't believe that either economic migrants nor refugees - if indeed we want to make that distinction - are heading here in order to impose anything. I'm fully prepared to accept, though, that jihadists and others will try to take advantage of the disruption and turmoil of such migration.

But jihadists and others are perfectly capable of taking advantage of any situation. Whatever the case, there's no argument here for ignoring the plight of people fleeing from war zones or lousy conditions in countries suffering from all manner of problems.
 

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Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Gamaliel wrote:

quote:

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I once worked for a university where some argued that in the prospectus we shouldn't show pictures of a particular former church building on campus in case it dissuaded potential students from Islamic countries from applying ...



The thing was, of course, potential Muslim students weren't bothered about that in the least. They knew they were applying for courses in an ostensibly Christian country and were quite expecting to see church buildings and former church buildings when they arrived.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So I think it is highly unlikely that Muslims are coming with the intention to usher in a harsh form of Sharia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:
The point is not how a phenomenon may or may not be a large break from the norm. The point is how said phenomenon changes the game completely. The fact that we might have been able to see some of these things coming is neither here nor there. They have changed religion significantly. So, once again, I really have no idea what you're arguing. I'm not sure you do either.

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quote:

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There is no reason to believe Islam will not also change in contact with secular, pluralist societies. It has already. So have the secular, pluralist societies.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Why is it seen as such a threat that Muslims outnumber Christians? I just don't get that. Is it a threat that atheists outnumber Christians (they do already)? Is it a threat that vegetarians outnumber meat-eaters?

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
They will find your church services alien and strange just as they will find your food and your language and your social structures and customs strange.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yes, that's true. And so they will usually gather into groups and areas with others like them where they can stick to their familiar social structures and customs. As their numbers grow, so do those areas. Over time, those areas turn into places where the original residents find the social structures and customs so strange that they are no longer home in any meaningful sense. And as more immigrants arrive, the areas grow.

Any of the original residents who think that's anything other than a good thing are, of course, hideously racist and should be completely ignored. After all, wanting to live with people who share your cultural and social expectations is only a good thing if you're not in the majority.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
They will find your church services alien and strange just as they will find your food and your language and your social structures and customs strange.

---

Yes, that's true. And so they will usually gather into groups and areas with others like them where they can stick to their familiar social structures and customs. As their numbers grow, so do those areas. Over time, those areas turn into places where the original residents find the social structures and customs so strange that they are no longer home in any meaningful sense. And as more immigrants arrive, the areas grow.

Any of the original residents who think that's anything other than a good thing are, of course, hideously racist and should be completely ignored. After all, wanting to live with people who share your cultural and social expectations is only a good thing if you're not in the majority.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, indeed ...

Meanwhile, in one sense I'm quite gratified that Mousethief considers Protestants to be his relatives - but am I alone (or am I right?) to feel a tad aggrieved that he doesn't regard us as brothers and sisters but cousins?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As far as Ivan the Terrible goes, I've heard tell that there is some moves afoot (unofficially) within Russia to get the guy canonised ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Our problem is that we have quite a few Ad Orientems here who are blocking the way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

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In the urban context where I live, however, this is not necessarily the case. It's not that the Muslims here are cocooned, but that the contact they may have with the kind of society you mention is not great, or not socially significant. Indeed, some scholars say that Muslims in some English communities have become less secular over time, as their numbers have increased along with social segregation, They haven't had to interact with the indigenous culture to the same extent, and the rate of marrying out has dropped, etc. They may also be from stricter and less educated cultural communities in their homelands.

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quote:

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O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As far as Ivan the Terrible goes, I've heard tell that there is some moves afoot (unofficially) within Russia to get the guy canonised ...

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Russia is a very strange place.

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I've heard there's a move to canonize Rasputin as well.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Hmm...Ivan, Stalin, and Rasputin. Quite a trifecta.


 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I've heard there's a move to canonize Rasputin as well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Ad Orientem, how frequently do you pray the Jesus Prayer?

Or that of St. Ephrem? The last part is especially important, IME:

quote:

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O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Ad Orientem, how frequently do you pray the Jesus Prayer?

Or that of St. Ephrem? The last part is especially important, IME:

quote:

---

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Ad Orientem, how frequently do you pray the Jesus Prayer?

Or that of St. Ephrem? The last part is especially important, IME:

quote:

---

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

---

---

OK, but don't you see the problem? Ad Fatuus* will see only other Orthodox as his brothers. He will conveniently ignore the Samaritan lesson.


*Foolish, idiotic, fatuous, silly, stupid, addle-brained, addle-headed, inane, etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It would be a betrayal of the spilt blood of Christians who fought to keep Europe Christian against the Turk to just to let it be Islamasised by stealth now. But no doubt that is the ultimate goal of the self loathing liberal who hates everything European and Christian.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It would be a betrayal of the spilt blood of Christians who fought to keep Europe Christian against the Turk to just to let it be Islamasised by stealth now. But no doubt that is the ultimate goal of the self loathing liberal who hates everything European and Christian.

---

Mm. I'm guessing you've never been to the Middle East or met many Muslims on a day to day basis (have you ever actually left Finland?). They're not all sword-wielding, rampaging fanatics, you know; most of them have no appetite for war and conflict, and just want to get on with ordinary life.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, here's my question again, Ad Orientem. If Europe is being 'Islamisised' by stealth then what do you propose we do about it?

It's one thing to say, as you seem to be doing, that we shouldn't let Islamic refugees into Europe - but what about the Muslims who are already here and who have been living here for some considerable time?

Are you suggesting we deport them or do you have something more sinister in mind?

This isn't about being liberal and self-hating or having anything against Europe, it's about facing up to the fact that we live in a pluralist society and have done so for many years. Sure, that brings its problems but there's no such thing as a monocultural society anywhere in the West these days - even if there ever was such a thing.

If anything, it seems to me that the West is more in danger of becoming completely secularised rather than Islamisised - but that process is less apparent - as yet - among Muslims than it is among people of other faiths.

I ask again, what is your solution to apparent 'Islamicisation by stealth' or to the onset of secularism?

What are you actually proposing?

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh right, you were born in East London and that gives you... absolutely no knowledge about multiculturalism at all, you dingus.

I mean, really, have you heard yourself recently?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Actually I was born in East London, so I know all about multi-culturalism and its effects.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Actually I was born in East London, so I know all about multi-culturalism and its effects.

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I'm guessing you didn't have a good experience?

You don't have to answer that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It would be a betrayal of the spilt blood of Christians who fought to keep Europe Christian against the Turk to just to let it be Islamasised by stealth now. But no doubt that is the ultimate goal of the self loathing liberal who hates everything European and Christian.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So all we have is one immigrant complaining that other immigrants have spoiled things for him.

I'm going to have to borrow MT's irony meter.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
You're not defending inherently European culture, you're just saying First Invasion Wins.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So all we have is one immigrant complaining that other immigrants have spoiled things for him.

I'm going to have to borrow MT's irony meter.

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I live in the land of my ancestors (at least from my mother's side).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So all we have is one immigrant complaining that other immigrants have spoiled things for him.

I'm going to have to borrow MT's irony meter.

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I live in the land of my ancestors (at least from my mother's side).

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quote:

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On the Constantinian thing - for the millionth, squillionth time, it ain't the underlying Q-Source issue for all the ills of society nor the Church/es more specifically ….

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quote:

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It would be a betrayal of the spilt blood of Christians who fought to keep Europe Christian against the Turk to just to let it be Islamised by stealth now. But no doubt that is the ultimate goal of the self loathing liberal who hates everything European and Christian.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
From what AO has said, I wonder if he's experienced Finland as a fresh start, and a safer place than London--and now his safe place doesn't feel safe any more.

I'm not defending what he said. But IME feeling/being unsafe is very stressful, and can skew your views.

And, as I mentioned on the "Can A Muslim Be President?" thread in Purg, it can freak you out to have your "difference alarms" going off. You live in "fight or flight mode", unless you find a way to cope.

YMMV, etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Whether it's a good or bad thing, wanting everyone to be like you is simply not a realistic goal. Even if you shut the doors to immigration, you will find, sooner or later, your generation supplanted by the next-- a group who will undoubtedly have different taste in music, fashion, clothing, and entertainment-- which will then determine what sorts of things are offered in public shops and activities. Christians have been seeing this for decades in the "worship wars".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The obvious question then is, was your bad experience in London because you didn't feel at home rather than having anything to do with multi-culturalism? Were those experiences the result of being the outsider who some people never accepted?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Ad Orientem, how frequently do you pray the Jesus Prayer?

Or that of St. Ephrem? The last part is especially important, IME:

quote:

---

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

---

---

Often enough, I suppose.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Whether it's a good or bad thing, wanting everyone to be like you is simply not a realistic goal. Even if you shut the doors to immigration, you will find, sooner or later, your generation supplanted by the next-- a group who will undoubtedly have different taste in music, fashion, clothing, and entertainment-- which will then determine what sorts of things are offered in public shops and activities. Christians have been seeing this for decades in the "worship wars".

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Gradual change over a generation or two is hardly the same as rapid change over a year or two.

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Generational change isn't always so gradual. Although I would agree that generational change is generally easier to except than the sort of cultural change that comes with immigration-- but I don't think it's because of the timeline. I think it has more to do with the central problem of this thread, "accepting the 'other'". Generational change is accepted because it's "our own"-- even when our kids adopt customs and music and dress that is completely foreign to us. But that fact is, we DO accept-- or at least deal with-- those sorts of change. We have to-- it is the way of life. What I was responding to in my original post was the suggestion that if we could just keep all those dang immigrants back where they came from, we would be able to continue on with our nice safe comfortable communities that embrace the same values and customs forever and ever amen. And that's just not possible-- and never has been. Change, including cultural change, is part of life.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
'Judge not, lest ye also be judged ...' Irish_lord99 ... I've heard Orthodox say that this is one of the key Orthodox principles (although why they think it's more a feature of Orthodoxy than any other form of Christianity I don't know - I've encountered plenty of judgemental RCs, Protestants and Orthoes ...)

And yes, I can judgemental myself.

@Steve Langton - sure, I get what you're getting at - you've said it enough times. I'm not in favour of Erastianism either but I think there's a bigger issue at stake here ... and Erastianism and xenophobia is the symptom rather than the cause.

If Ad Orientem is happier in Finland then he was in London's East End I'm happy for him. I'm sure Finland is a delightful place. I'd miss proper cask-conditioned ale as well as fish and chips - and curry ... yes, curry - something brought here from the Indian sub-continent and given a twist ...

I suspect, though, that the Finland Ad Orientem inhabits is something of a Finland of his own imagination ... (hears strains of 'Finlandia' swelling in the background), an idealised one that doesn't take into account all the various facets - good, bad and indifferent.

Finland tends to have a reputation - alongside the rest of Scandinavia - of being rather liberal - big welfare state and so on ... I'm sure there is a nationalistic and jingoistic side too - as there is in Denmark, Sweden and Norway (if we want to include Finland alongside those countries) and Ad Orientem seems to exemplify that.

In fact, he seems to exemplify all these things in spades - Erastianism, a kind of hyper-Orthodox chauvinism, extreme conservatism and a harping back to a mythic past full of trolls and what-have-you ...

I seem to remember some rather unpleasant ideologies emerging from that kind of misty-eyed nationalistic heroic myth territory during the 20th century ...



So, yes, I'm very wary of anything that smacks of nationalistic phyletism ... it always seems to lead to unpleasant results.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, yes, I'm very wary of anything that smacks of nationalistic phyletism ... it always seems to lead to unpleasant results.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Generational change isn't always so gradual. Although I would agree that generational change is generally easier to except than the sort of cultural change that comes with immigration-- but I don't think it's because of the timeline. I think it has more to do with the central problem of this thread, "accepting the 'other'". Generational change is accepted because it's "our own"-- even when our kids adopt customs and music and dress that is completely foreign to us.

---

quote:

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Change, including cultural change, is part of life.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Finland tends to have a reputation - alongside the rest of Scandinavia - of being rather liberal - big welfare state and so on ... I'm sure there is a nationalistic and jingoistic side too - as there is in Denmark, Sweden and Norway (if we want to include Finland alongside those countries

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
For the record, I think it's wrong both ways. If I were to move to another country I'd expect to have to adapt to the culture there rather than having it adapt to me, and I expect no more nor less of anyone travelling in the opposite direction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

For the record, I think it's wrong both ways. If I were to move to another country I'd expect to have to adapt to the culture there rather than having it adapt to me, and I expect no more nor less of anyone travelling in the opposite direction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
(Currently listening to a podcast on the history of the language, going all the way back to proto-Indo-European roots. Expect evangelisation on the subject.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
(Currently listening to a podcast on the history of the language, going all the way back to proto-Indo-European roots. Expect evangelisation on the subject.)

---

Does it say anything about the origin of Finnish? Because, to the best of my knowledge, it has no place within the European family of languages. It appears Finns aren't Europeans, and I want to know where to send them off to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Genetically Finns are Europeans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You can easily find the information on the net, such as Wikipedia. Finns are one of the oldest European peoples, closest to Estonians and Swedes.

---

See, the whole point of the kind of analysis that linguists do is to show that ancestral Finns and Estonians are not close to ancestral Swedes, and that to the extent that Finnish has incorporated Swedish words into it that's as a result of much later contact when they arrived in their present locations.

The map of haplogroups backs this up nicely.

Describing people as "oldest Europeans" just begs the question, given that no-one, whether evolutionist or creationist, actually believes that Europe is ground zero for the human race. We all came from somewhere else originally. And the evidence points to Swedes and Finns being from separate groups of people that eventually ended up living next to each other.

Your reasons for being fine with a Swede next door but not a Syrian next door have to do with emotion, not logic or science.

[ 23. September 2015, 07:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
There are other linguistic mysteries across Europe - such as Basque for instance that doesn't appear to bear any relation to surrounding languages - Spanish, Catalan, French - and which may well be a contender for the oldest language in Europe. Welsh makes such a claim too.

Of course, there are separatist and nationalist tendencies within the Basque country and in Wales - and it can lead to the kind of 'we were here first, everyone else can fuck off' xenophobia that Ad Orientem seems to exemplify.

It's for Mousethief and other Orthodox to comment on whether phyletism is Orthodoxy's besetting sin ... personally, in face-to-face interaction with Orthodox I've never encountered any full-on examples of that but I know people who have -- and I've seen enough nationalistic and xenophobic shite online posted by Orthodoxen to recognise that it is certainly a problem.

That's not to let the other Christian traditions off the hook ... we all have our besetting sins and blind-spots.

Often, our greatest strength can be our greatest weakness. One of the strengths of Orthodoxy - in my view - is the sense of 'groundedness' and the emphasis on the Incarnation (which it shares with Roman Catholicism too, of course) - and this, of course, can lead to an attachment to particular things and places and objects - be it the Holy Lane and its holy sites and relics or particular monasteries or shrines or tracts of land. I was rather taken aback when I heard a sermon by an Orthodox priest from Wales in which he attributed the failure of the Water Board to build a reservoir in a particular North Walian location (and reservoirs are a bone of contention of course with many Welsh people as they didn't have any 'say' in where these things were built) to the intervention of a particular Celtic Saint to whom the ground had been granted 'in perpetuity' ...



I'm happy to put that down to eccentricity - in another sermon, which I didn't hear - he apparently described a clash between a Mercian Saint and a 'crocodile' ...

However, one can easily see how this could develop into an overly emotional attachment to particular places and topography.

So, in that respect, I do share Steve Langton's suspicion of religious nationalism and the tendency towards 'Constantinianism' and Erastianism.

All Christian traditions have their weak spots and Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy can - I said 'can' not 'must' - be so conservative as to swing towards xenophobia, chauvinism and even fascism.

There are equal dangers within highly conservative forms of Protestant Christianity - and also liberalism - because many liberals are remarkably illiberal when it comes to dealing with people who don't share their views ...

I'm not saying that Ad Orientem is an Andres Breivik in the making ... but I do think he's on thin ice and in danger of slipping ...
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course, there are separatist and nationalist tendencies within the Basque country and in Wales - and it can lead to the kind of 'we were here first, everyone else can fuck off' xenophobia that Ad Orientem seems to exemplify.

---

Yes, but the point was kind of that the Basques might actually have some science on their side when saying things like that.

A Finnish person might even have some evidence on their side when they say something about being first in Finland. The main reason for having a go at Ad Orientem is that he claims to speak for the whole of bloody Europe, when in fact his ancestry isn't the same as most of Europe.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well yes.

I've long since given up on giving Ad Orientem any credit for sense.

Anyone who believes that any form of media, anywhere in the world is somehow immaculately free of bias or a particular angle (political or otherwise) is clearly either daft or simply very naive.

But of course that puts me firmly in the self-hating liberal relativist camp ...



Ad Orientem seems stuck back in the 14th century. Heck, even the 14th century wasn't stuck back in the 14th century ...


 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Genetically Finns are Europeans. The language is however a bit of an oddity but it's in the same group as Estonian and Hungarian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A Hungarian once told me that the Hungarian language is related in some ways to Finnish but is actually closer to Turkish ...

Which might cause Ad Orientem some palpitations if this is actually the case ...

---

It isn't. Finnish and Hungarian are both Finno-Ugric languages; Turkish is a Turkic language (oddly enough) and there's no wknown relationship between them, besides possibly some contact borrowings. Even the wider designation of Uralic doesn't include Turkic, which if it is part of a larger group would be Altaic. If the concept of Altaic languages has legs.

Short version - no, Turkic and Hungarian are not related. Hungarian and Finnish are.

[ 23. September 2015, 11:02: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok - thanks for that, Karl. Who says the Ship isn't informative?

It would appear from what my Hungarian friend that a lot of Turkish and Hungarian people do believe that their respective languages are related - but thanks for clarifying that they aren't.

I'm sure Ad Orientem will be breathing a sigh of relief ...



Of course, what he hasn't told us yet is that both the Old and New Testaments were originally written in Finnish and later transcribed into Hebrew and Greek ...

Indeed, Abraham didn't leave Ur of the Chaldees but took his herds of reindeer across the Arctic Circle and down to a spot where Helsinki now stands ...
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
According to Wikipedia archaelogical finds from 10,000BC show sufficient stylistic similarities to Sami cultural artefacts to make a continuity between those first people following the retreating glaciers and the Sami highly likely. So, that makes the Sami a far older people than any other peoples in Europe. Certainly a longer presence in Scandinavia and Russia than the relatively recently arrived Finns (some theories place the arrival of Finns in Finland as late as the early centuries AD).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes.

I've long since given up on giving Ad Orientem any credit for sense.

Anyone who believes that any form of media, anywhere in the world is somehow immaculately free of bias or a particular angle (political or otherwise) is clearly either daft or simply very naive.

But of course that puts me firmly in the self-hating liberal relativist camp ...



Ad Orientem seems stuck back in the 14th century. Heck, even the 14th century wasn't stuck back in the 14th century ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Of course, there's always a degree of interbreeding

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What's AO actually talking about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What's AO actually talking about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.

---

Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.

Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.

Simples.

---

I never said I hated anyone, least of all because of the colour of their skin. What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam. If you think I'm exaggerating then all one need do is look to the Middle-East itself. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, all of which though not democracies were secular and at the first opportunity became hotbeds of radical Islam. It is no coincidence. As I said earlier, it is in the very DNA of the Islamic faith itself.

[ 23. September 2015, 12:34: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
You see, Ab Noxious, you display both the hypocrisy and folly of medieval chauvinism. It's perfectly right and proper for people in Finland and Russia to be against western cultural invasion and innovation (and so they should be, I don't approve of it either way round), but if you happen to be non-white and non-European, heaven forbid even a Muslim, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.

It might well be that liberal pluralism is doomed but that will have have been due to the folly of medieval Erastian xenophobia (which hates liberalism probably more than the Muslim East). Not only will liberalism and pluralism be doomed but also ...



Read.my.lips. I don't hate Europe, I don't hate Christianity, I don't hate my own cultural heritage - I value it greatly.

It's possible to do all those things without sounding like a complete and utter xenophobic and paranoid arse.

The thing is, Arse About Tip Orienteering, you seem to have succumbed to some kind of overly binary and dualistic approach which is just as black-and-white as anything we are likely to find in fundamentalist Islam or fundamentalist anything else.

I'm surprised you can't see that. Perhaps its because you've oriented your head so far up your own arse that you can't see the light of day.
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
It's sort of like how anti-same sex marriage heterosexuals feel that their own marriages are threatened by the mere existence of gays who are married. If those brown people live their own lives in close proximity to the xenophobic white folks living their own lives, it will just spoil everything.
 

---

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
Oh, very droll!
 

---

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You see, you display both the hypocrisy and folly of modern secular liberalism. It's perfectly right and proper for people in Asia and Africa to be against western cultural invasion (and so they should be, I don't approve of it either way round), but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.

---

Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.

Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.

Simples.

---

I never said I hated anyone, least of all because of the colour of their skin. What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam. If you think I'm exaggerating then all one need do is look to the Middle-East itself. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, all of which though not democracies were secular and at the first opportunity became hotbeds of radical Islam. It is no coincidence. As I said earlier, it is in the very DNA of the Islamic faith itself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.

---

Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.

Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.

Simples.

---

I never said I hated anyone, least of all because of the colour of their skin. What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam. If you think I'm exaggerating then all one need do is look to the Middle-East itself. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, all of which though not democracies were secular and at the first opportunity became hotbeds of radical Islam. It is no coincidence. As I said earlier, it is in the very DNA of the Islamic faith itself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
but if you happen to be white and European, heaven forbid even a Christian, and desire the preservation of your culture and identity then you're the most despicable racist/xenophobe.

---

Well, that's where your problem is. My love of church bells, folk music and real ale doesn't make me a despicable racist/xenophobe.

Your hankering after an undefined white, Christian Europe that never existed, and your hatred of brown-skinned Muslims living among us, does make you despicable racist/xenophobe.

Simples.

---

I never said I hated anyone, least of all because of the colour of their skin. What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam. If you think I'm exaggerating then all one need do is look to the Middle-East itself. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, all of which though not democracies were secular and at the first opportunity became hotbeds of radical Islam. It is no coincidence. As I said earlier, it is in the very DNA of the Islamic faith itself.

---

Hardly at the first opportunity. All had been independent since not long after WW2 and have only become hotbeds of Islam in the last decade, in many coincidentally since the West started to interfere in that region again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I never said I hated anyone

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:


To all intents and purpose, I am an economic migrant. Except that I am so white as to be practically transparent and come from a country as wealthy as the one I emigrated to so apparently I am not and no one is worrying about how well integrated I am. I think this says a lot about perceived changing of cultures.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.

---

That may well be, but that's hardly surprising given that the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.

---

That may well be, but that's hardly surprising given that the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.

---

No, the majority of the posters are western Protestant Christians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.

---

No, the majority of the posters are western Protestant Christians.

---

It's the same thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What's AO actually talking about?

---

A fear of kebab shops. I explained this earlier.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Here are some Western Protestant Christians:
WBC
The late Revd the Lord Bannside
St Helen's Bishopgate
LCMS

Secular liberals?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.

---

No, the majority of the posters are western Protestant Christians.

---

It's the same thing.

---

You're an idiot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Yet nobody calls him an economic migrant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by le vie en rouge
I maintain that the only proper thing to put on a piece of toast is Marmite.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Yet nobody calls him an economic migrant.

---

'Cause he gets a burn under a fluorescent light.

quote:

---

Originally posted by le vie en rouge
I maintain that the only proper thing to put on a piece of toast is Marmite.

---

This does not make one British; it makes one a masochist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Remind us again which party of ultra-nationalists you regularly vote for?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.

---

That may well be, but that's hardly surprising given that the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.

---

If the alternative is your reactionary religiousity it's no surprise that secular liberalism is on the up. On hearing you I bet more people turn to Satan than away from him.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Broken their election promises?

What were they? Deport all Muslims? Lock up all Freemasons? Brand all Protestants with hot irons?


 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I never said I hated anyone

---

Protestants, freemasons, 'self-hating liberals', Jews, Muslims living next door to you... apart from them, and the continual mentioning of a white, Christian Europe.

All perfectly reasonable. Nothing at all 'Aryan' about that...

(edited to add, Jews, because, you know)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
I've never understood how Germany, etc., bought into the blonde, blue-eyed Aryan propaganda. The high caste in India is Aryan. It's the dark-haired, brown-eyed (?) Germans who are Aryan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Here are some Western Protestant Christians:
WBC
The late Revd the Lord Bannside
St Helen's Bishopgate
LCMS

Secular liberals?

---

Exceptions to the rule, that's all, but nobody can deny that for the most part it is true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Broken their election promises?

What were they? Deport all Muslims? Lock up all Freemasons? Brand all Protestants with hot irons?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
I've never understood how Germany, etc., bought into the blonde, blue-eyed Aryan propaganda. The high caste in India is Aryan. It's the dark-haired, brown-eyed (?) Germans who are Aryan.

---

Some potty 19thC theory that decided the Urheimat* was in Northern Europe, rather than somewhere around Iran. After all, if you can have the British descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel, why not?

There was - still is - a lot of national myth making to establish that We are superior to Them.

*source homeland

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Anyway, no one is ever going to accuse me of being a non-assimilating immigrant destroying French culture. My English habits are perceived to be cute, as are my occasional linguistic mistakes

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Anyway, no one is ever going to accuse me of being a non-assimilating immigrant destroying French culture. My English habits are perceived to be cute, as are my occasional linguistic mistakes

---

Have you considered the possibility that the fact they find you cute is more to do with there only being one of you? I can't imagine your neighbours being so happy about it if there were several thousand of you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.

---

That may well be, but that's hardly surprising given that the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.

---

No, the majority of the posters are western Protestant Christians.

---

It's the same thing.

---

I am so glad I was not drinking anything when I read this.

I guess Jesus was a secular liberal as well, what with this penchant for helping Romans and talking to Samarians instead of waving a placard saying "Israel for the Jews".
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Compared to Sweden and Norway, Finland has failed to grant land rights to the Sami, who are thus relatively disadvantaged and their culture more threatened by the dominant European cultures than in Norway and Sweden.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course, what he hasn't told us yet is that both the Old and New Testaments were originally written in Finnish...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I read some stuff about this shortly after my last post, via a range of Wikipedia articles. Seems likely the Finns jumped across from Estonia at some point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Then you either misunderstand me or misrepresent me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There's literally a whole board of people here who've come to the same conclusion as I have, based solely on what you've written here during your time on the Ship.

---

That may well be, but that's hardly surprising given that the vast majority of posters are liberal secular.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
You're an idiot.

---

So are you. Go away!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What I do worry about if the ideology many of these immigrants are bringing with them, that being radical Islam.

---

I'm fascinated how "many" can be bringing "radical" Islam.

Because one of those words has to be wrong, by definition. To be "radical" you have to be unusual, not common.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
And how many people go around actually talking in a meaningful way about "advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social reform"?

As opposed to complaining about the traffic disruption that will be caused by construction of a mosque down the road, in between posting pictures of cats on Facebook.

No-one ever gets described as "radical" unless they're doing something that is some distance away from what "normal" people are doing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So what are you going to do now your political party has let you down, Ad Orientem?

Start your own? Join some kind of underground cell dedicated to combating the nefarious plots and conspiracies found in 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'?

Or uncovering Masonic plots to destabilise Christian Europe?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Note to self: be literal to the point of anal around mousethief. It saves time in the long run.

Example: When referring to "definitions", distinguish between "actual popular usage of language" and "what mousethief can find in dictionary"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Note to self: be literal to the point of anal around mousethief. It saves time in the long run.

Example: When referring to "definitions", distinguish between "actual popular usage of language" and "what mousethief can find in dictionary"

---

But people don't use "radical" to mean "members of a small group." You invented that and are trying to glom it onto the word, and make fun of me while doing so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe it's just me, but watching orfeo and Mousethief wag their etymological dicks at each other is a lot more entertaining than reading anything Ad Orientum has to say.

---

Kelly, having teeth drawn would be more entertaining than reading Ad Orientum.

Huia
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So what are you going to do now your political party has let you down, Ad Orientem?

Start your own? Join some kind of underground cell dedicated to combating the nefarious plots and conspiracies found in 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'?

Or uncovering Masonic plots to destabilise Christian Europe?

---

It's most likely that I just won't vote because what we're left with are neo-liberals and just plain old liberals. Now if there was a National socialist party I'd vote for them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe it's just me, but watching orfeo and Mousethief wag their etymological dicks at each other is a lot more entertaining than reading anything Ad Orientum has to say.

---

Participating in etymological dick-waving is a lot more entertaining.

...although, is it really etymological?
 

---

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So what are you going to do now your political party has let you down, Ad Orientem?

Start your own? Join some kind of underground cell dedicated to combating the nefarious plots and conspiracies found in 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'?

Or uncovering Masonic plots to destabilise Christian Europe?

---

It's most likely that I just won't vote because what we're left with are neo-liberals and just plain old liberals. Now if there was a National socialist party I'd vote for them.

---

FIFY

---

Fuck off!
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Am I the only one who has noticed that Ad Orientum has told Mousethief to 'Go away!' and Karl Liberal Backslider to 'Fuck off!'?

Does this mean that because Mousethief is Orthodox he only deserves a polite school-playground brush-off as far as Ad Orientum is concerned - ('Ya boo! Go away poo-poo head!') whereas Karl being a self-confessed liberal and a backslider to boot, is given the full Anglo-Saxon works (or more accurately, Old Dutch) ... ?

Karl is clearly a Freemason and Zionist sympathiser.

For all that, perhaps Ad Orientum would like to explain how his xenophobia, chauvinism and strong nationalism (he's told me off for describiing it as 'ultra') is at all compatible with any form of socialism, whether Christian or otherwise.

I know we're treading into Godwin's Law territory, but the only form of socialism I'm aware of that corresponds to the kind of views that Ad Orientum appears to espouse is National Socialism ...



But what would I know? I'm being manipulated by Freemasons and Zionists.
 

---

Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on :
 
by orfeo;

quote:

---

To be "radical" you have to be unusual, not common.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Am I the only one who has noticed that Ad Orientum has told Mousethief to 'Go away!' and Karl Liberal Backslider to 'Fuck off!'?

Does this mean that because Mousethief is Orthodox he only deserves a polite school-playground brush-off as far as Ad Orientum is concerned - ('Ya boo! Go away poo-poo head!') whereas Karl being a self-confessed liberal and a backslider to boot, is given the full Anglo-Saxon works (or more accurately, Old Dutch) ... ?

Karl is clearly a Freemason and Zionist sympathiser.

For all that, perhaps Ad Orientum would like to explain how his xenophobia, chauvinism and strong nationalism (he's told me off for describiing it as 'ultra') is at all compatible with any form of socialism, whether Christian or otherwise.

I know we're treading into Godwin's Law territory, but the only form of socialism I'm aware of that corresponds to the kind of views that Ad Orientum appears to espouse is National Socialism ...



But what would I know? I'm being manipulated by Freemasons and Zionists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
So fuck your trade, massively restrict your economic growth and try to become mono-culture. Thay's all.

---

quote:

---

Ariel: "Lamas have had in the past. They have come and gone."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Try Google translate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Putin annexed Crimea, if that action were consequencelss - what do you think the long term fall out is likely to be ? Has Finland not been invaded by Russia before ?

---

quote:

---

THE LAMA
The one-l lama,
He's a priest.
The two-l llama,
He's a beast.
And I will bet
A silk pajama
There isn't any
Three-l lllama.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Ariel: "Lamas have had in the past. They have come and gone."

---

They have had whom? Ad Orientem?

---

"Lama" is Finnish for "recession".
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Lama is Portuguese for 'mud'.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I don't think anyone is saying that the USA, the EU or any other political or economic bloc is squeaky clean, Ad Orientem.

Shipmates of whatever political persuasion are more than capable of criticising the US, the UK, the EU or any other country or system.

The problem, as I see it, is one of increasing polarisation where one ignores or overlooks problems at home - or with close neighbours - in your case, Russia - in order to blame 'others' and wallow in some kind of paranoid self-pity.

I think we can see this both on the Right and the Left of the political spectrum.

What happens then is a kind of 'denial' thing - and the elevation of murky political leaders one approves of (or disapproves of less than others) to almost demigod status. I think we can see this with the way some of the more right-wing and Erastian Orthodox bang on about Putin - I've even seen sites where he's cited as some kind of Saintly figure - overlooking the fact that his personal life isn't exactly up to scratch in terms of the moral mores of 'Holy Russia' ...

Didn't he shack up with a dishy actress or something?

Anyhow, whatever the case any form of West = Bad or East = Good or t'other way round flattens and diminishes the real issues and leaves us with an overly binary and dualistic view of the world.

Yes, the Cold War is back with us (if indeed it ever went away) and I'm not happy about that at all - and I certainly don't go in for the kind of knee-jerk condemnation of Russia that some indulge in - nor its corollary, a knee-jerk condemnation of the US or the EU or whacky conspiracy theories about the Freemasons ...

I'm surprised that you can't see how your views can so easily lead to anti-Semitism and xenophobia - but perhaps you're cool with that ...

I believe it's possible to be against Zionism and to criticise Israel without stepping over the line into anti-Semitism but I get the impression in your case that you believe there to be some kind of vast Jewish-Zionist conspiracy afoot, aided by the Freemasons - and for all I know, lizard-men from Planet Zogg ...

I don't think anyone here would have an issue with you wanting the best for your country or wanting fairer distribution of wealth or wanting Finland to leave the EU ... there's nothing wrong with any of that and you're entitled to your opinion. I'm fairly pro-Europe but not indifferent to some of the weaknesses and inefficiencies of the EU - but that doesn't mean I'd immediately demonise anyone who wanted out.

No, what people seem to be objecting to is a kind of Ad Tantrum effect, a hissy-fit reaction against anything and anyone who doesn't fit some kind of idealised mould you've constructed in your own mind.

I value Europe's Christian heritage too - our institutions, laws and culture have been largely shaped by the Christian faith - and that's partly why I react against Steve Langton's continual banging of the anti-Constantinian drum. Christendom had strengths and it had weaknesses, but whatever the rights and wrongs of all that, the concept of Christendom is on the wane - it's been eroding for centuries.

Whether we like it or not, and whoever you 'blame' for that - Protestantism, the Enlightenment, heck the Great Schism of 1054, medieval Scholasticism or whatever else (Freemasons? Jews? ) that's the reality.

We can't turn back the clock. We have to work with whatever cards we're dealt. We're living in liberal, pluralist democracies. They ain't perfect but neither was an idealised Christendom whether in the Byzantine Empire, Holy Russia, Anglo-Saxon England pre-Norman Conquest or whatever other period people fondly imagine as some kind of golden age.

There never was a golden age. Crap has always happened. Get over it already.

Yes, there are challenges with secularism, yes, radical jihadism is a major, major issue - so is climate change, so is rampant, out of control capitalism, so are lots of other things ...

We have to learn to live and adapt, to address those issues we feel strongly about and we have to learn to live and work with others who may share similar values - of all faiths or none.

Withdrawing into some imagined fastness - whether it be an Amish commune or some kind of monocultural 'Christendom' state that hasn't existed for hundreds of years isn't the way to go.
 

---

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Crimea probably deserves its own thread. The history is rather interesting. No idea what the aboriginal history is, but my recall when the Russians annexed it recently as discussed locally here (we have a huge Ukrainian descended minority) is that it was settled by Greeks, conquered by Russia, given to Ukraine in Soviet times. The Russians are successfully conflating Hungarian, Bulgarian and Romania neo-fascists with Ukrainian nationalism as they present it to their citizens. I suspect there is a little bit of truth to it. The recent Hungarian xenophobia has helped their ideas. It is also helpful to understand that the borders of all of the countries are considered relatively flexible by many in the area, and they think in terms of aspirations for some historical grandeur in many cases, such that Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Ukraine, Russia, Poland, all have been in different places and thus all of the countries contain groups and areas where the people may well consider themselves part of another country or ethnicity by virtue of language.

As NATO and American influences have moved east, to the door step of Russia. it has become rather concerned about the strategic situation with a bottle neck piece of Russia to the east, and American influence in all the countries that are on its southern flank. Russia is paranoid, with some justification. About that time I added Pravda to my RSS newsfeed, and confirmed that they think rather differently about the manner in which the USA (to a lesser extent the EU) want to spread "democracy" to the east, because they read democracy as really infiltrating so they can take raw materials and make money, at the expense of themselves. America being more interested in making other countries financially dependent so they can dictate their economies ether through some form of aid-exploitation or via IMF dictation. Russia would see this area as their sphere of interest which is being targetted. The underlying message I've been taking is that everyone's thinking is combining 19th century colonialism and dividing up the world post 2 world wars.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, and I think the Russians are right to be concerned.

However ...
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
whereas Karl being a self-confessed liberal and a backslider to boot, is given the full Anglo-Saxon works (or more accurately, Old Dutch) ... ?

Karl is clearly a Freemason and Zionist sympathiser.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
None of these involve literally declaring that a counting exercise has to be undertaken, but none of them are logically consistent with a usage that suggests that the majority of people are involved.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Putin annexed Crimea, if that action were consequencelss - what do you think the long term fall out is likely to be ? Has Finland not been invaded by Russia before ?

---

Crimea has nothing to do with us, but don't think the US and the EU are without blame. Yes, the Soviets invaded us in '39 but that is irrelevant to the situation today. The sanctions are significantly harming our economy and for what? American expansionism and Russophobia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
No, no, no. You've got it all wrong.

The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

Haven't you read any of the self-evident truth that AO has been trying to explain to us?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
We could save a load lots of money if we left as this article (in Finnish) suggests.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I wonder if AO has considered converting to some proper authentic Finnish religion rather than that Middle Eastern nonsense?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe it's just me, but watching orfeo and Mousethief wag their etymological dicks at each other is a lot more entertaining than reading anything Ad Orientum has to say.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Participating in etymological dick-waving is a lot more entertaining.

...although, is it really etymological?

---

Or in your case, perhaps, entymological? Not that I want any details, thanks, just to insult.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Langton:
by orfeo;

quote:

---

To be "radical" you have to be unusual, not common.

---

If we're being thoroughly etymological, 'radical' means one of two things, which are nothing to do with unusualness or commonness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I wonder if AO has considered converting to some proper authentic Finnish religion rather than that Middle Eastern nonsense?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

In the urban context where I live, however, this is not necessarily the case. It's not that the Muslims here are cocooned, but that the contact they may have with the kind of society you mention is not great, or not socially significant. Indeed, some scholars say that Muslims in some English communities have become less secular over time, as their numbers have increased along with social segregation, They haven't had to interact with the indigenous culture to the same extent, and the rate of marrying out has dropped, etc. They may also be from stricter and less educated cultural communities in their homelands.

---

---

Good. Who are these scholars, and where can I find their work?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
We could save a load lots of money if we left as this article (in Finnish) suggests.

---

Let me get this right. You have a position that you wish to support. And, the best you could manage is an article that no one else here can read? Really? You thought that was a good idea? Really?

Just when I was thinking you couldn't demonstrate a lower level of intelligence you do just that. I read somewhere on the internet that Finns are the closest relations to cro-magnon. But, cro-magnons managed to make functional tools, so clearly were more intelligent than the one example of Finnish intelligence we've been honoured to experience.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

---

Tell this to the USA and UK re Iraq.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And how exactly would I get the same article in English?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The problem, as I see it, is one of increasing polarisation where one ignores or overlooks problems at home - or with close neighbours - in your case, Russia - in order to blame 'others' and wallow in some kind of paranoid self-pity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I believe it's possible to be against Zionism and to criticise Israel without stepping over the line into anti-Semitism but I get the impression in your case that you believe there to be some kind of vast Jewish-Zionist conspiracy afoot, aided by the Freemasons - and for all I know, lizard-men from Planet Zogg ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Help me out here - more than 70% of Finns are in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, with around 1% in the Finnish Orthodox Church.

Last time I looked, the Lutheran Church was a protestant Evangelical church - and Ad Orientem has stated that western Protestant Christians are the same as liberal secularists - which AO believes are bad.

But then AO says he would now vote for a Christian socialist party.

Isn't it likely that a Finnish Christian socialist party would be largely made up of Lutheran Christians, and wouldn't he therefore be voting for western secularists?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The principle of not nicking other people's countries is in everybody's interest.

---

Tell this to the USA and UK re Iraq.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
We could save a load lots of money if we left as this article (in Finnish) suggests.

---

Let me get this right. You have a position that you wish to support. And, the best you could manage is an article that no one else here can read? Really? You thought that was a good idea? Really?

Just when I was thinking you couldn't demonstrate a lower level of intelligence you do just that. I read somewhere on the internet that Finns are the closest relations to cro-magnon. But, cro-magnons managed to make functional tools, so clearly were more intelligent than the one example of Finnish intelligence we've been honoured to experience.

---

And how exactly would I get the same article in English?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Zionist sympathisers are alright. It's those muslim-loving, Hamas supporting anti-Zionists that are the problem. Shipping all the Jews off to Israel is good, it stops them polluting our pure Christian culture.

---

Few Orthodox Christians are going to say good things about Zionism, given what our co-religionists have suffered at the hands of Israel. The fact that they are now suffering under radical Muslims doesn't undo that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sorry, I should have asked to borrow the irony meter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And how exactly would I get the same article in English?

---

quote:

---

Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

How long will it be before he bcomes an Old Believer, then an Old Old Believer (do they exist? They will if he goes on like this) and so on and so on until he has convinced himself that he is the only actual Christian remaining on earth. Then he will sit out the rest of his days in splendid isolation denouncing the backsliding ways of the rest of us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

In the urban context where I live, however, this is not necessarily the case. It's not that the Muslims here are cocooned, but that the contact they may have with the kind of society you mention is not great, or not socially significant. Indeed, some scholars say that Muslims in some English communities have become less secular over time, as their numbers have increased along with social segregation, They haven't had to interact with the indigenous culture to the same extent, and the rate of marrying out has dropped, etc. They may also be from stricter and less educated cultural communities in their homelands.

---

---

Good. Who are these scholars, and where can I find their work?

---

Let me reiterate that neither I nor the commentators below are saying Muslims are inevitably radical fanatics or fundamentalists (my Muslim neighbour and her very successful children certainly aren't). That having been said, let me add to the list issues that might lead to or be sign of more intense Muslim identification rather than secularisation:

- global politics as a recruitment tool for fundamentalist ideas
- racism and/or Islamophobia in the West
- the increasing demand for and availability of separate Muslim schools
- poverty
- white flight
- the traditional British policy of celebrating or tolerating multiculturalism rather than emphasising assimilation/integration
- reinforcement of particular cultural practices when the Muslims in question mostly come from the same South Asian background
<snip>

Much more could be said, of course. I'm willing to post or look for more sources, but for now the above should provide enough food for comment if you're so inclined.

---

quote:

---

We argue that the Government has to change its policy approach towards Muslims. It should stop emphasising difference and engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight:
You might perhaps acknowledge that the solution being offered in that text at least is to offer Muslims the benefits of citizenship in secular society? And if this is reflected in future policy (even granting that is a big "if"), it would mean the increasing secularisation of Muslims, rather than the reverse?
I will keep reading, that is just a first response. But I'm not sure that one supports your ideas as unproblematically as you might think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Putin annexed Crimea, if that action were consequencelss - what do you think the long term fall out is likely to be ? Has Finland not been invaded by Russia before ?

---

Crimea has nothing to do with us, but don't think the US and the EU are without blame. Yes, the Soviets invaded us in '39 but that is irrelevant to the situation today. The sanctions are significantly harming our economy and for what? American expansionism and Russophobia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Back in February of this year, a bunch of Shipmates tried to show AO the dangers of this on a Hell thread that AO started. Didn't work. But makes for some...interesting...reading.

The pertinent part starts around here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's like a Scot wanting to be English.

---

The first thought popping in my head was "I think you find they're called Lowlanders.
Seriously though, they do exist. The difference is they've no barriers from strolling down the road and becoming so.
 

---

Posted by JonahMan (# 12126) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's like a Scot wanting to be English.

---

The difference is they've no barriers from strolling down the road and becoming so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sorry, I should have asked to borrow the irony meter.

---

I knew you were being ironic, but I couldn't tell exactly which side of the "Orthodox love Israel" line you were coming down on. I misread. Sorry about that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Mainly I was aiming for a simple "AO is an idiot" line.

---

We've six pages on this thread alone that makes this a fairly clear and unambiguous conclusion.
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
I know. But, it's difficult to resist the temptation to point out the obvious when every thing he posts just produces another example to illustrate it.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I read somewhere in the past few weeks that Putin already has a bit of Finland, an estate belonging to the Russian Presidency, on which some Finns trespassed to set up a gay bar, or something. Definitely considered offensive, anyway.
 

---

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 
Hm, Ad Orientem hasn't replied since last night. I wonder if he had other plans, such as throwing rocks at refugee children.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Wow, re the rock-throwing story! And then there's the comment section...


Reading the article, they've gotten a HUGE influx of refugees this year. Recently, they've gotten 500 people a *day* at just one border crossing with Sweden.

That would cause a lot of tension. I do not in any way, shape, or form defend mistreating immigrants. But I can see why people might be hugely uncomfortable, and even panic.

ETA: Thx for the link, Leaf.

[ 25. September 2015, 20:56: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
People suck in general, people in groups suck exponentially. God. Fuck everyone.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Reading the article, they've gotten a HUGE influx of refugees this year. Recently, they've gotten 500 people a *day* at just one border crossing with Sweden.

---

quote:

---

So far this year more than 13,000 asylum seekers, most of them from Iraq, have come to Finland, compared to just 3,600 in the whole of last year.

In recent days, about 500 refugees per day have crossed the Finnish land border in Tornio, near the Arctic Circle, after a long journey through Sweden.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Well, per the article to which Leaf linked, and which I was discussing:

quote:

---

So far this year more than 13,000 asylum seekers, most of them from Iraq, have come to Finland, compared to just 3,600 in the whole of last year.

In recent days, about 500 refugees per day have crossed the Finnish land border in Tornio, near the Arctic Circle, after a long journey through Sweden.

---

(Italics mine.)

---

quote:

---

The bus contained some 49 people, the majority of whom were fleeing violence in Iraq. The group also included small children, as well as infants in arms, according to Yle’s reporter on the scene, Kirsti Pohjaväre.

---

quote:

---

All of the reception centres are being placed in communities where there haven’t been many people with foreign backgrounds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, well I stand corrected. As though it makes any difference whether people are fleeing Iraq or Syria (or anywhere else where they're in real danger from bombs, shells, bullets, tyrannical government or criminal thugs pretending to be a government). Having their bus pelted with stones in a supposedly safe and civilised country is just not on.

---

quote:

---

And, 500 people seeking entry to Finland per day is a mere trickle. To consider that to be an excessive number of refugees for the country is absurd.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, well I stand corrected. As though it makes any difference whether people are fleeing Iraq or Syria (or anywhere else where they're in real danger from bombs, shells, bullets, tyrannical government or criminal thugs pretending to be a government). Having their bus pelted with stones in a supposedly safe and civilised country is just not on.

---

If they're genuine refugees, no it isn't. Though unfortunately it seems about a third of claimants generally are posing as Syrian when they are not.

quote:

---

And, 500 people seeking entry to Finland per day is a mere trickle. To consider that to be an excessive number of refugees for the country is absurd.

---

True, but apparently they think Finland is boring.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
So if they aren't real refugees, having their bus pelted with stones is on? Just asking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
.
No excuse for the Finnish hooligans, anyhow.

---

And isn't this the whole point?
You think those bastards, and all the whingers protesting, really care about where the refugees are from?
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Of course not. That was my point.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Perhaps Ad Orientem has absconded and is now a refugee from the Ship?

Wherever he's gone, it won't be Ad Occidentum that's for sure ...

Ad Accident Waiting To Happen-dem ...

I'll get me coat ...
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh, please don't apologize. This is the first time in a long time you posted something I enjoyed reading.

( Welcome to Hell, folks. Please tip your server.)
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan (all countries much less able to take in refugees than Finland) have received far more refugees.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
really it's hard to see how anybody who arrives in Finland is strictly speaking a refugee any more, unless they have claimed asylum elsewhere and then been dispersed to Finland by international agreement.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, well I stand corrected. As though it makes any difference whether people are fleeing Iraq or Syria (or anywhere else where they're in real danger from bombs, shells, bullets, tyrannical government or criminal thugs pretending to be a government). Having their bus pelted with stones in a supposedly safe and civilised country is just not on.

And, 500 people seeking entry to Finland per day is a mere trickle. To consider that to be an excessive number of refugees for the country is absurd.

---

Again, that was 500 per day at *one border crossing*, not for the whole country.

But no, no one should be treated like that, ever. And people from one place aren't more or less valuable than those from another place. I wasn't trying to make a point--just trying to understand and responding to the article that someone else provided.


 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
really it's hard to see how anybody who arrives in Finland is strictly speaking a refugee any more, unless they have claimed asylum elsewhere and then been dispersed to Finland by international agreement.

---

A refugee is someone who has fled their home seeking refuge somewhere safe. Does that change if they travel further than absolutely necessary? Especially if they pass through other places where they are not welcomed and do not feel safe?

I would suspect that if the refugees are arriving in coaches that someone had organised that trip, and therefore they were being dispersed within Europe by international agreement. Whether the 500 per day arriving at other borders were in coaches or making their own way I can't comment on.

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