Originally posted by Freddy:
I guess the other rationale would be to count the days back from Christmas, since counting forward from the imagined date of the crucifixion was apparently how December 25th was chosen.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
) The only reason that Easter is not celebrated at passover is because of antisemitism. Constantine said "Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."quote:December 25th was chosen because it was Saturnalia.
Originally posted by Freddy:
I guess the other rationale would be to count the days back from Christmas, since counting forward from the imagined date of the crucifixion was apparently how December 25th was chosen.
quote:I agree with this.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:Jesus was killed at Passover. He rose on the first day of the week, according to the Gospels, which is of course, Sunday.
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:I agree with this.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.
Except that I'm wondering how strongly the Bible indicates that Jesus rose on a Sunday.
In any case, Easter would not take place on the Passover itself, but the day after. I think...
quote:The UK government have already passed the Easter Act 1928
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm wondering the extent to which secular authorities would have to be involved - clearly there is a whole load of Christianity which was not included in the discussion process revealed by the ABofC, but also I'm guessing that there must be some kind of secular tie to the dating of Easter by various countries.
Would it need a major rewrite of law?
quote:Lamb Chopped, that gets three of these.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'd rather we leave things as is, instead of starting up new fights and divisions in the church-as-a-whole.
Besides, one of the good things about the weirdness of Easter dating is its very inefficiency. It does us good to have at least one major holiday dancing around the calendar and reminding us that the world is not a neat and efficient place, and we are not robots. And it does us good to learn to respect varying practices, East and West, and to enjoy one another's differences.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:Agreed on every count, especially the last one. Just imagine another schism in the Scottish churches... Oy vey. And some of us would never get used to celebrating Good Friday on a Tuesday, for example, if the calendar told us we had to.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'd rather we leave things as is, instead of starting up new fights and divisions in the church-as-a-whole.
Besides, one of the good things about the weirdness of Easter dating is its very inefficiency. It does us good to have at least one major holiday dancing around the calendar and reminding us that the world is not a neat and efficient place, and we are not robots. And it does us good to learn to respect varying practices, East and West, and to enjoy one another's differences.
quote:I'm also an early March baby, and I also enjoy sometimes having Shrove Tuesday or Ash Wednesday, sometimes being before Lent and sometimes during. My sister, with an April birthday, sometimes had Maundy Thursday or Good Friday, but also sometimes had Easter.
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Some of us with late February or early March birthdays (I'm March 5th) like that our birthdays don't always fall during Lent, and on some years even correspond with Fat Tuesday.
quote:It makes a change to blame Constantine for something other than establishing a state religion.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only reason that Easter is not celebrated at passover is because of antisemitism. Constantine said "Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."
quote:If they adopt March 25, they'll have to move the Feast of the Annunciation.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.
quote:I don't know if this is a pious explanation made after the fact, but I have heard before that the theory is that Our Lord was both crucified and conceived on March 25th (the legend is that all holy persons die on the same day as their conception). Thus Our Lord's birth is December 25th, marking it 9 months after the conception.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.
quote:Why do they need the same Easter? Christmas day is on different days in different parts of the world. Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas day on or near January 7th.
Originally posted by Demas:
I don't understand. Surely this isn't serious?
Is the idea that the Anglican Communion and the RCC pick a new method for determining Easter and the rest of Christianity/the Church are just along for the ride?
Wouldn't this need some sort of council in the RCC? I assume the Pope couldn't do it alone.
quote:The Americans did change the date of Daylight Savings Time a few years ago and everyone followed suit.
Originally posted by Demas:
I don't understand. Surely this isn't serious?
Is the idea that the Anglican Communion and the RCC pick a new method for determining Easter and the rest of Christianity/the Church are just along for the ride?
Wouldn't this need some sort of council in the RCC? I assume the Pope couldn't do it alone.
What about the Southern Baptists, to pick a group at random? Are they going to meekly change their dates because the ABC has convinced the Pope that it is a good idea?
quote:Orthodox celebrate Christmas on the 25 December, they just disagree what day that is
Originally posted by Boogie:
Why do they need the same Easter? Christmas day is on different days in different parts of the world. Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas day on or near January 7th.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:And because it was 9 months later than the feast of the Annunciation on March 25th.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:December 25th was chosen because it was Saturnalia.
Originally posted by Freddy:
I guess the other rationale would be to count the days back from Christmas, since counting forward from the imagined date of the crucifixion was apparently how December 25th was chosen.
quote:Apparently not.
Originally posted by Penny S:
Surely that is the other way round - the Annunciation being calculated from the date of Christmas?
quote:Have you tried changing something minor like the time of the services, or moving the pews? Anything the church has done since the older member can remember is at least as binding as scripture.
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
As far as I know, the tradition of having Easter after the first full moon of the Spring Equinox is not anything more than a convention. There is nothing "Scriptural" about the particular date.
quote:Not necessarily. I remember reading once that the Feast of the Anunciation was chosen to coincide with the Crucifixion. It was a Jewish belief that righteous men died on the anniversary of their conception. Early scholars calculated that the most likely date of the Crucifixion was March 25th.
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:If they adopt March 25, they'll have to move the Feast of the Annunciation.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.
quote:...except that it wasn't. Saturnalia was celebrated from December 17 through 23.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
December 25th was chosen because it was Saturnalia.
quote:...and Sol Invictus was invented after the birth of Christianity.
Originally posted by Penny S:
I thought it was because it was the birthday of Sol Invictus (as well).
quote:Wikipedia is such a great resource.
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:I don't know if this is a pious explanation made after the fact, but I have heard before that the theory is that Our Lord was both crucified and conceived on March 25th (the legend is that all holy persons die on the same day as their conception). Thus Our Lord's birth is December 25th, marking it 9 months after the conception.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I believe March 25th was used by some parts of the Early Church.
Does anyone know the original source of this legend?
quote:So that explains it.
It was a traditional Jewish belief that great men lived a whole number of years, without fractions, so that Jesus was considered to have been conceived on March 25, as he died on March 25, which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.[86] Sextus Julius Africanus (c. 160 – c. 240) gave March 25 as the day of creation and of the conception of Jesus.[87] In his work Adversus Haereses, Irenaeus (c. 130–202) identified the conception of Jesus as March 25 and linked it to the crucifixion at the time of the equinox, with the birth of Jesus nine months after on December 25 at the time of the solstice
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quote:And three more.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Lamb Chopped, that gets three of these.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'd rather we leave things as is, instead of starting up new fights and divisions in the church-as-a-whole.
Besides, one of the good things about the weirdness of Easter dating is its very inefficiency. It does us good to have at least one major holiday dancing around the calendar and reminding us that the world is not a neat and efficient place, and we are not robots. And it does us good to learn to respect varying practices, East and West, and to enjoy one another's differences.
quote:Unlikely - they tend to prefer giving a holiday during the Easter octave. When they mucked around with school holidays, we had to work up to Maundy Thursday and even have a stafff meeting in the evening - Chrism mass, Mass of the last Supper etc. meant nothing to them - they couldn't see what the fuss was about as, 'after all, you've got Easter off.'
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The only advantage I see is that a fixed date for Easter might convinced my employer to put the spring holiday at Easter again so I wouldn't be working during Holy Week.
quote:Gregorian Easter is always at passover. It is the Rabbinic feast of Unleavened Bread that is sometimes not celebrated at passover, as for example this year, the Rabbinic calendar designates as Nisan what ought to be the month of Iyar.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only reason that Easter is not celebrated at passover is because of antisemitism.
quote:I presume you have evidence for this rather outrageous claim?
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only reason that Easter is not celebrated at passover is because of antisemitism.
quote:I think he is a good theological leader, so a senior Bishopric is perfect. I think he is a little out of his depth as ABC. I suspect that the job is out of anyone's depth, but he is not doing well.
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sadly I am rapidly losing any respect for Welby.
quote:Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
Originally posted by Freddy:
If they come up with a fixed date I hope that we also get a fixed date for Passover, since the two are connected. Seems unlikely.
quote:Right—Passover starts on 15 Nisan. And since months in the Hebrew calendar are designed to coincide with the phases of the moon, 15 Nisan should always be on (or almost on) the full moon. Hence making Easter the Sunday after the full moon.
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
Originally posted by Freddy:
If they come up with a fixed date I hope that we also get a fixed date for Passover, since the two are connected. Seems unlikely.
quote:The only governments that can set holidays for 'a few billion people" are China (1.4 bn people) and India (1.3 bn). The PRC is unlikely to care and in India it seems as if Christian holy days are decided at state rather than national level. I'm guessing that the UN isn't about to decree international holidays?
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Uh, no.
Hate to tell this to you lot who think guys in pointy hats can make these decisions but like it or not, it would be government who would decide if this holiday should be fixed.
One in particular to be honest.
AND, when that happens, dollars to donuts Good Friday loses its statutory holiday status and the holiday becomes the Monday.
We live in a non-Christian world. No way a dude in Rome and a Dude in England and a Dude somewhere east of there get to decide when a few billion people take a holiday.
quote:You mean you really think that Christians will change when they celebrate Easter to something decreed by the government? Ever?
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
If the US wants Easter to stay on a certain day, it will stay on a certain day. Business runs on US schedules still.
Until then, this discussion means nothing.
quote:Gregorian calendar is named after Bishop of Rome. Is Jesuit plot. If use Gregorian calendar next thing you know you use lightbulbs in church.
Originally posted by mousethief:
And of course in large swathes of the Orthodox Church, it's calculated from an artificial date that once was on the Equinox but has slipped by 13 days in the intervening centuries due to the imperfections of the Julian calendar and the stubborn refusal to use the more astronomically defensible Gregorian calendar.
quote:If you think the US government would TOUCH the idea of establishing a date for a religious holiday,
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
If the US wants Easter to stay on a certain day, it will stay on a certain day. Business runs on US schedules still.
Until then, this discussion means nothing.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:Interested to hear you say this SC. Can you point me to anything good he's written?
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:I think he is a good theological leader, so a senior Bishopric is perfect. I think he is a little out of his depth as ABC. I suspect that the job is out of anyone's depth, but he is not doing well.
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sadly I am rapidly losing any respect for Welby.
I have respect for him as a person, as a theologian, but as the leader of the CofE and the Anglican Communion, no.
quote:Hmm. You said nearly the exact same thing last October. I was struck then as now by your use of such an oddly non-specific term - not a particular company or even industry, but "commerce."
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I've heard commerce call for a fixed date for Easter sometimes, so that they can plan their sales better. It makes me think "Let them have it. Let them have a fixed date for their eggs and bunnies and bullshit, and we'll continue celebrating Christ's resurrection on our moving date."
quote:Did Welby himself use the word "static"?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Nope, I watched the press conference, it was definitely suggested that there should be a static date for Easter that everyone recognised.
quote:And Easter is already on a fixed Sunday. It is always the third Sunday in (Gregorian) Nisan.
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
quote:There is nothing "erratic" in the formula. Intercalations are always in the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years of the Rabbinic cycle, which correspond respectively to the 6th, 9th, 11th, 14th, 1st, and 3rd years of the (Western) Christian cycle. The Rabbinic calendar has an implied equinox that is a few days late, however, so in 3 years out of every 19 (the 3rd, 11th, and 14th years of the western Christian cycle) the Rabbinic calendar sets the full moon of Nisan to the second full moon of Spring.
Originally posted by Galilit:
Pessach/Passover is the "nail" in the Jewish calendar and everything is calculated from that. To maintain the Holiday on the first full moon of Spring (the ancient Hebrew calendar month of Aviv, the modern Hebrew calendar month of Nissan) adjustments are made to the calendar every few years (according to a very erratic formula) by adding a second month of Adar at the end of winter.
quote:And the 13-day solar discrepancy isn't even the worst of it. The four-day lunar discrepancy is even more obvious:
Originally posted by mouse thief:
And of course in large swathes of the Orthodox Church, it's calculated from an artificial date that once was on the Equinox but has slipped by 13 days in the intervening centuries due to the imperfections of the Julian calendar and the stubborn refusal to use the more astronomically defensible Gregorian calendar. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
quote:"Fixed Sunday" and "fixed date" are mutually incompatible.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:And Easter is already on a fixed Sunday. It is always the third Sunday in (Gregorian) Nisan.
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
quote:There is no federal holiday related to Easter in the United States. As noted, Easter is always on a Sunday, so federal offices, including the post office, are closed anyway. Neither Good Friday nor Easter Monday are federal holidays.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:If you think the US government would TOUCH the idea of establishing a date for a religious holiday,
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
If the US wants Easter to stay on a certain day, it will stay on a certain day. Business runs on US schedules still.
Until then, this discussion means nothing.
The beauty of it is, Easter is on a Sunday, so PC-types can ignore the whole thing out of existence. Unlike Christmas, which so inconsiderately falls during the week most years, forcing various shenanigans as people try to pretend they're giving you time off for some other reason.
quote:In the Gregorian calendar, Passover is the 14th of (Gregorian) Nisan, and Easter is the following Sunday. This year, 2016, Gregorian Passover is Wednesday, March 23rd, and Easter is the following Sunday, March 27th. Are you saying that there is an incompatibility between a fixed date in the second week of a month and a fixed weekday in the same month's third week?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:"Fixed Sunday" and "fixed date" are mutually incompatible.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:And Easter is already on a fixed Sunday. It is always the third Sunday in (Gregorian) Nisan.
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
quote:Filling in which Western Christian year corresponds to the Rabbinic 14th year is left as an exercise for the reader.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Intercalations are always in the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years of the Rabbinic cycle, which correspond respectively to the 6th, 9th, 11th, 14th, 1st, and 3rd years of the (Western) Christian cycle.
quote:"Fixed date" means the date is fixed. Not which Sunday. The date. is fixed. Christmas falls on a fixed date: December 25. In the Christian calendar, the Annunciation falls on a fixed date: March 25. Easter is not a fixed date; it always falls on a Sunday, and based on a weird system.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:In the Gregorian calendar, Passover is the 14th of (Gregorian) Nisan, and Easter is the following Sunday. This year, 2016, Gregorian Passover is Wednesday, March 23rd, and Easter is the following Sunday, March 27th. Are you saying that there is an incompatibility between a fixed date in the second week of a month and a fixed weekday in the same month's third week?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:"Fixed Sunday" and "fixed date" are mutually incompatible.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:And Easter is already on a fixed Sunday. It is always the third Sunday in (Gregorian) Nisan.
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Passover is on a fixed date, it's just according to the Hebrew calendar.
quote:Then why did you say this in response to a post that never said otherwise?
Originally posted by mousethief:
Thus I say "fixed date" and "fixed Sunday" are mutually exclusive. If the date is fixed, it will only fall on a Sunday every 6th year or so.
quote:The OP was asking for discussion on Archbishop Welby's statement. The only direct quote from Archbishop Welby I have yet found is in this article in The Guardian, which can be taken as referring to either a fixed date or a fixed Sunday:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I thought this thread was about someone setting a "fixed date" for Easter. You said it was on a "Fixed Sunday" but that's not what the OP was calling for or suggesting
quote:Also, the possibility of a fixed Sunday being Welby's solution was introduced into this thread above by Rev per minute and by Albert Ross's reference to the statute of 1928.
“Pope Tawadros has put forward the idea to churches in the eastern tradition and the western tradition that it be fixed somewhere around the second or third Sunday of April and we will certainly be joining in. We have agreed that we support that,” Welby said.
quote:It would be a good thing if we all celebrated Easter at the same time. (Although if we're going to do that, we should probably agree on a common Christmas as well.)
Originally posted by mousethief:
So the thread title might more accurately be "... a common date for Easter."
quote:There is no way in Hell the Orthodox would sign off on that.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Having Easter on a fixed date, and celebrating the resurrection on some random day of the week doesn't seem like the right thing to do.
quote:It would certainly be odd to have Maundy Monday and Good Tuesday.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Having Easter on a fixed date, and celebrating the resurrection on some random day of the week doesn't seem like the right thing to do.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:It was rather more the idea of Holy Saturday falling on a Sunday that was making my head explode.
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
It would certainly be odd to have Maundy Monday and Good Tuesday.
quote:They where asked back in 1997, I'm thinking this is ongoing response.
Originally posted by Demas:
A lot of Christians are going to be unhappy if their government changes the date of the Easter holidays on the basis that the Pope, Coptic Pope and English Pope, sorry, ABC, get together and declare it is a good idea (TM).
Ecumenical doesn't mean the Orthodox, Catholic and Anglicans get together. Will anyone be asking the opinion of the Southern Baptists? The Quakers? Any of the Reformed churches? Lutherans? If so, how? A big ecumenical council? That'd be fun.
There is simply no single or group authority to make this change for the billion Christians in the world and I find it bizarre that anyone would want to go through the effort.
quote:I haven't seen any evidence for him being a "theologian". He's certainly not in the same category as Rowan Williams and there are plenty of others who have shown more theological nous than him. (Jeffrey John for a start!)
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:I think he is a good theological leader, so a senior Bishopric is perfect. I think he is a little out of his depth as ABC. I suspect that the job is out of anyone's depth, but he is not doing well.
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sadly I am rapidly losing any respect for Welby.
I have respect for him as a person, as a theologian, but as the leader of the CofE and the Anglican Communion, no.
quote:Yes, that was what I first thought. But then I came across this thread just after the ABC's problems with the Dead Horse issue and assumed that fixing a date for Easter must be easier than fixing the DH issue.
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
(Can a host fix the subject line? I'm assuming that the word "easier" was intended. Thank you!)
quote:I don't think there is any sense where any Christian group has a fixed Sunday for Easter given that it is calculated from the phases of the moon. The difference between those using the different calendars is that the calculation starts from a different point, and therefore gives a different answer.
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think we understand each other now.
But seriously the problem is not so much a fixed date or fixed Sunday for Easter. The Orthodox have a fixed Sunday. The RCC and those who follow its calendar (virtually all Protestants) have a fixed Sunday. The Copts & those who follow their calendar (Armenians and Ethiopians, if I'm not mistaken) have a fixed Sunday. But we don't all have the SAME fixed Sunday. So the thread title might more accurately be "... a common date for Easter."
quote:With appropriate bowing and scrapping to the host
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
Up until now I for one have read the title word as "easier".
In the absence of agreement on what it should have said, it's staying in all its misspelled glory unless the OPer gives us a clue.
/hosting
quote:I assume you mean the Ecumenical Patriarch. We have a lot of patriarchs.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And before we get too carried away with saying what the Orthodox would or wouldn't allow, it probably needs restating that (according to Welby) the proposal comes from the Copts with support from the Orthodox Patriarch and the Pope.
quote:Thanks for the clarification. I assumed Good Friday was a Federal Holiday.
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
..
So, there's no reason for Congress to spend a second hinting about the date of Easter. And if the date of Easter were somehow to change, U.S. federal law would not be affected at all.
quote:I agree with him.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of scrapping the lunar computation:
Article here.
quote:I don't see why American states would present an obstacle. Wikipedia lists twelve states in which Good Friday is a holiday; the Illinois statute specifies "the Friday preceding Easter Sunday (Good Friday)" and the Florida statute just says "Good Friday". I haven't checked the others, but I suspect they're similar; I doubt that any of them have incorporated a specific method for determining the date of Easter. As long as religious leaders keep the definition of Good Friday as "the Friday before Easter Sunday" I don't think that setting the date of Easter as the second or third Sunday in April (as Welby has suggested) would require the states to make any statutory changes at all.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:Thanks for the clarification. I assumed Good Friday was a Federal Holiday.
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
..
So, there's no reason for Congress to spend a second hinting about the date of Easter. And if the date of Easter were somehow to change, U.S. federal law would not be affected at all.
State by state discussion of that could be interesting in a "are they really going to change things cause the Pope, some now not involving Americans guy in England and a guy in a beard somewhere in Greece think its a good idea" way.
And if there is no state consensus, then this ain't changing.
quote:So do I. Now that's unsettling!
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:I agree with him.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of scrapping the lunar computation:
Article here.
quote:Likewise, and likewise.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:So do I. Now that's unsettling!
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:I agree with him.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of scrapping the lunar computation:
Article here.
quote:So do I - probably the only time I'll ever agree with him.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:I agree with him.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of scrapping the lunar computation:
Article here.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:In the Uk we have already fixed the school term/holiday dates so as to equalise the length of terms.
Originally posted by Rocinante:
By all means keep the process for dating the religious festival, if we must - but why not move the school and public holidays to fixed dates? That would result in sensible length school terms,
quote:?? They may be equal where you live, but round here the spring term is 53 days long and the summer term 68 days. Obviously if Easter is early this will happen as under current arrangements the school holidays are pegged to the religious festival. There is some leeway to keep things more even by having Easter itself at the beginning or end of the holiday but as Easter Day can fall at any time between March 22nd and April 25th, keeping terms equal in length would mean starting the school holiday 2 weeks after Easter in some years. Personally I don't have a problem with this. Many People nowadays - including some churchgoers IME - have only the haziest idea of what Easter is, perhaps this is because they are always on holiday at Easter?
Originally posted by leo:
quote:In the Uk we have already fixed the school term/holiday dates so as to equalise the length of terms.
Originally posted by Rocinante:
By all means keep the process for dating the religious festival, if we must - but why not move the school and public holidays to fixed dates? That would result in sensible length school terms,
So I can't see what the fuss is about and certainly don't think Welby can oveturn the Council fof Nicea in his arrogance.
quote:They do, and then they say "oh look we've got four days off and Junior's on holiday, let's go to Cornwall"
Originally posted by leo:
So maybe they should look at their diaries.
quote:That must be specific to your locality. Round here (London) I've never known Easter to fall outside the school holidays.
Originally posted by leo:
Most school calenders remain the same but give two bank holidays for Good Fiday and Easter Monday only.
quote:"separated Eastern Christians"
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
'Tain't happening.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:Hooray for that.
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
'Tain't happening.
quote:I am quite capable of saying "Western Christians" without mentioning anything about our relationship with them. I can say "Catholics" without calling them schismatics. Are Catholics incapable of this feat of semantic legerdemain?
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
You like "schismatics" better?
quote:Chesterbelloc, which lot are the schismatics here? Calling the whole of the Protestant side of the Reformation names, we are used to and not surprised about. But writing off all the churches that are linked to the other four Patriarchs as schismatics as well is a bit too far. Looking at the events of the 1050s, it's easy to spot the schisms but it's more than a bit difficult to spot which side count as the schismatics.
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
You like "schismatics" better?
quote:Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...
Originally posted by leo:
Why should the Church yesr, fixed at the council of Nicea, acommodate itselef to to Easter bunnies?
quote:Or bunnies.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...
Originally posted by leo:
Why should the Church yesr, fixed at the council of Nicea, acommodate itselef to to Easter bunnies?
quote:So easy to tell OTHERS not to strain at gnats. "Here let me remove that gnat from your eye."
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Better too, surely, not to strain at gnats.
quote:Whereas Man was made for the business convenience of head teachers, retail CEOs and the proprietors of holiday lets.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...
quote:Especially us Episcopalians in the U.S.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Whereas everyone knows that all Christian denominations are in fact schismatics from the Anglican Communion. That includes the Anglican Communion.
quote:Wait, shouldn't that be "First remove the camel from thine own gullet that thou mayest breathe clearly to remove the gnat from thy brother's"? Or, "Is that a plank in thy sieve, or art thou just grieved to see me?" What a speck-tacular cocktail of gospel fun.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:So easy to tell OTHERS not to strain at gnats. "Here let me remove that gnat from your eye."
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Better too, surely, not to strain at gnats.
quote:I take your point but I was mostly reacting against the idea that because the computation of Easter was decided by the Council of Nicaea, therefore it is immutable until the end of time itself and any change is a sign of arrogance.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Whereas Man was made for the business convenience of head teachers, retail CEOs and the proprietors of holiday lets.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...
quote:Immutable or not, the Nicene rule, in its Gregorian implementation, has held up pretty well. It is more accurate, 400 years after it was first set up, than the Julian version was at the corresponding point in its history.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:I take your point but I was mostly reacting against the idea that because the computation of Easter was decided by the Council of Nicaea, therefore it is immutable until the end of time itself and any change is a sign of arrogance.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Whereas Man was made for the business convenience of head teachers, retail CEOs and the proprietors of holiday lets.
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Precisely. Man was made for the liturgical calendar, not the liturgical calendar for man ...
quote:It would make perfect sense for all Christian churches join Easter with Passover, which too is a moveable feast. As well as being the right gesture of reconciliation with the Jews, it would end the argument between East and West as to whose calendar has bigger balls.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.
quote:More likely Jewish people would be insulted - an appropriation of their festival.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:It would make perfect sense for all Christian churches join Easter with Passover, which too is a moveable feast. As well as being the right gesture of reconciliation with the Jews
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.
quote:I agree, plus we would then have the problem of whose chronology to follow - the Synoptic's or the Fourth Gospel's.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:More likely Jewish people would be insulted - an appropriation of their festival.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:It would make perfect sense for all Christian churches join Easter with Passover, which too is a moveable feast. As well as being the right gesture of reconciliation with the Jews
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.
quote:Are you proposing to put Easter always on the Sunday that falls within the Rabbinic Jewish calendar's week of Unleavened Bread? This would certainly work for a while, but the Rabbinic calendar has a slight solar drift that may eventually become a problem. This drift already causes Rabbinic Unleavened Bread to be in the lunar month after Easter in 3 years out of every 19.
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:It would make perfect sense for all Christian churches join Easter with Passover, which too is a moveable feast. As well as being the right gesture of reconciliation with the Jews, it would end the argument between East and West as to whose calendar has bigger balls.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it would be an excellent witness to the world, a gracious gesture to the Jews, if the church were to apologise for this kind of attitude and move the comemmoration of the death of Christ to Passover.
quote:This encapsulates my puzzlement about this whole thing - was it a propsal to agree the calculation process, which makes some sense, or to fix an actusl weekend, which doesn't.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Whereas everyone knows that all Christian denominations are in fact schismatics from the Anglican Communion. That includes the Anglican Communion.
quote:What are the secular purposes of Easter, and why would they benefit from having a date different from the current one?
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Why not have a fixed Easter for secular purposes [...]
quote:Collecting plastic eggs and forcing people to dress up in rabbit costumes?
Originally posted by Dave W.:
What are the secular purposes of Easter
quote:Going from the small people I have contact with, the answer is hats and parades thereof. Although my nephew's preschool has decided that Easter Hat Parade might be offensive and has dropped the problematic 'Easter' bit, leaving a somewhat strangely unmoored Hat Parade looking lonely by itself.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:Collecting plastic eggs and forcing people to dress up in rabbit costumes?
Originally posted by Dave W.:
What are the secular purposes of Easter
quote:It's baffling as to why the day on which Jesus died was moved around in the first place, for as you say His Birthday has been fixed.
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Why not have a fixed Easter for secular purposes and let everyone have whatever religious Easter they choose (assuming they want one at all)?
Seems to work for celebrating the alleged birth so why not for the alleged death?
quote:What makes you think there's any consideration of "secular convenience" at all?
Originally posted by Cherubim:
I would be very disappointed if there was a move to kow-tow to secularist convenience by making it a fixed date.
quote:Because Holy Week can still be a week even if it is roughly the same week each year.
So how about fixing the date as the 25th March going forwards. As with Christmas, if we're not hung up about linking it with Passover and sun and moon cycles, why should we worry about what day of the week it falls? Just go for the same day of the same month each year.
quote:All the Christians south of the Tropic of Cancer called; they would like a word
Originally posted by earrings:
Holy Week needs to be a week in earlyish spring for new life resonance and to give shape to the church year.
quote:OUCH. Sorry
All the Christians south of the Tropic of Cancer called; they would like a word 
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quote:Actually, that point is unproven. There is an equal case that it was arrived at the other way around - i.e. starting from the 25th March as the date of the crucifixion and applying the idea inherited from the classical world that Jesus should have been around a whole number of years (for perfection, you see), and thus must have been born 9 months later, and conceived on the day of his death.
Originally posted by earrings:
But it ain't actually so given the annunciation is worked out from a Christmas date no one takes as actually the birthdate.
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quote:As does times when it falls on April Fools Day. Fools for Christ and all that.
Originally posted by earrings:
The tradition of Jesus crucified on the day of his conception (as it were) makes for some creative theological reflection.
quote:Because that would usually result in Easter being in a day other than Sunday, and the one thing everyone does agree on, and has agreed on since around the First Council of Nicaea, is that Easter should always be celebrated on a Sunday.
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
So how about fixing the date as the 25th March going forwards.
quote:But linking the date to Passover (albeit indirectly given various calendar issues) is still considered important. As for worrying about the day, it's all tied up with the significance of the resurrection having occurred on the First Day.
As with Christmas, if we're not hung up about linking it with Passover and sun and moon cycles, why should we worry about what day of the week it falls?
quote:Actually there's very good historical evidence that it goes the other way -- Christmas is on December 25 because the Annunciation was on March 25 because the passion was on (or about) March 25.
Originally posted by earrings:
The tradition of Jesus crucified on the day of his conception (as it were) makes for some creative theological reflection. I spoke on links between annunciation and crucifixion myself this year. But it ain't actually so given the annunciation is worked out from a Christmas date no one takes as actually the birthdate.
quote:You can have whatever holidays you want. Who's stopping you?
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Why not have a fixed Easter for secular purposes and let everyone have whatever religious Easter they choose (assuming they want one at all)?
Seems to work for celebrating the alleged birth so why not for the alleged death?
quote:Surprisingly measured and balanced for something from the National Review.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
More dissent:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433279/easter-calendar-changes-could-threaten-drain-it-meaning
