Thread: Cities and diocese with more than one cathedral (of the same denomination) Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
As one C of I clergyman told me, the RCs reckon Dublin has three cathedrals. One pro, and two amateurs.
(The C of I has two Dublin cathedrals - Christ Church and St Patrick's.)
This subject came up on another thread and was taking it over.
Any more examples?
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
As one C of I clergyman told me, the RCs reckon Dublin has three cathedrals. One pro, and two amateurs.
(The C of I has two Dublin cathedrals - Christ Church and St Patrick's.)
This subject came up on another thread and was taking it over.
Any more examples?
RC Winnipeg has three: Saint Boniface is francophone and the metropolitan see, Winnipeg is an archbishopric (for the Irish), and there is also an archbishopric for the Ukrainian Catholics.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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London has two Anglican cathedrals on opposite sides of the river - St Paul's and Southwark
[ 30. June 2015, 10:38: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Are the Dioceses of Southwark and London the same denomination? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
(says Albertus, who will carry with him to the grave just a tinge of South Bank religion)
Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on
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The Scottish Episcopal Diocese of Argyll and the Isles has two cathedrals, though not in the same conurbation: St John's Cathedral in Oban and the Cathedral of the Isles in Millport, Isle of Cumbrae.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
The Scottish Episcopal Diocese of Argyll and the Isles has two cathedrals, though not in the same conurbation: St John's Cathedral in Oban and the Cathedral of the Isles in Millport, Isle of Cumbrae.
Same conurbation? They're not even on the same island! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on
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True dat.
But does Millport count as a town?
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
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Otban is for Argyll and Millport is for the Isles.
Another city with two cathedrals is Danzig/Gdansk.
In the wake of WW1 an new 'exempt 'diocese of Danzig was created with its first bishop Graf Eduard O'Rourke. The cathedral was in the suburb of Oliwa in a splendid basilica.
Since WW2 and the city becoming Polish the main church Gross St Marien at that time Lutheran became the new Catholic co-cathedral with Oliwa.
Posted by Melangell (# 4023) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Are the Dioceses of Southwark and London the same denomination? (says Albertus, who will carry with him to the grave just a tinge of South Bank religion)
I think you're teasing us, Albertus, but just to clarify for others: St Paul's is the Cathedral of the Anglican Diocese of London; St Saviour and St Mary Overie is the Cathedral of the Anglican Diocese of Southwark.
Tangent/ the Dean of Southwark believes he is the only dean in England whose deanery has a splendid view of another cathedral (i.e. across the Thames to St Paul's), but no view of his own cathedral / end tangent
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
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Millport most certainly is a town.(It might even count as a 'city'! )
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Melangell:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Are the Dioceses of Southwark and London the same denomination? (says Albertus, who will carry with him to the grave just a tinge of South Bank religion)
I think you're teasing us, Albertus, but just to clarify for others: St Paul's is the Cathedral of the Anglican Diocese of London; St Saviour and St Mary Overie is the Cathedral of the Anglican Diocese of Southwark.
But there is also a RC Cathedral of Southwark
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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Two points about Southwark.
One
St Paul’s is the only cathedral in the City of London. Southwark is in the London Borough of Southwark. Up to 2000 and the creation of the Greater London Authority, the two cathedrals were not even in the same local authority area.
Two
I moved to Southwark from London. In my London parish, although we had clouds of incense and the Angelus, we were achingly right on. Priest wearing a white poppy on Remembrance Sunday for the Peace Union. No “In the name of the Father” to start as gender specific. Special Sunday to mark the Environment.
In my Southwark parish we have a Civic service with the mayor in place of the Sunday eucharist and a Masonic Lodge for the church.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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You have "the mayor in place of the Sunday eucharist". How is that done, may I ask?
(Only kidding - I know what you mean really!)
[ 30. June 2015, 15:38: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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They ate the mayor's body and blood? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Tho' I guess, venbede, from your tagline that unless it is an ironic reference to Croydon you may be from what people in the more urban end of Southwark diocese sometimes rudely used to call the 'White Highlands'*.
*For those not familiar with Southwark: the southern end outside Greater London, so called because it's hilly and there are comparatively few black people there.
Posted by Melangell (# 4023) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo: But there is also a RC Cathedral of Southwark
Quite so: but the RC Cathedral is dedicated to St George. The two Southwark cathedrals have good ecumenical relations...
Edit: UBB attempt
[ 03. July 2015, 05:00: Message edited by: Zappa ]
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
a Civic service (with the mayor) in place of the Sunday eucharist
punctuation for clarification.
If you count all greater London together, there are two RC cathedrals, St George's Southwark and Westminster Cathedral.
I was really meaning two cathedrals in one diocese.
What about St Anne's Belfast? There isn't a Bishop of Belfast. Is it a co-cathedral of the Diocese of Armagh?
Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on
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Again, not one city, but presumably the new Yorkshire über-diocese (is it West Yorkshire and the Dales?) has three cathedrals post amalgamation of Bradford, Wakefield and Ripon & Leeds.
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on
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I mentioned New Westminster in the other thread, which was the seat of the diocese bearing its name until 1929. The old Cathedral is now a parish church but still bears the title, along with Christ Church Cathedral in Vancouver.
Toronto's St Alban the Martyr, the remnant of Archbishop Sweatman's abortive project of an extra-parochial cathedral, is now the chapel of Royal St George's College (which served as the choir school of St James' Cathedral until the abolition of the Gentlemen and Boys).
[ 30. June 2015, 17:20: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
a Civic service (with the mayor) in place of the Sunday eucharist
punctuation for clarification.
If you count all greater London together, there are two RC cathedrals, St George's Southwark and Westminster Cathedral.
I was really meaning two cathedrals in one diocese.
What about St Anne's Belfast? There isn't a Bishop of Belfast. Is it a co-cathedral of the Diocese of Armagh?
Saint Anne's is an interesting sort of cathedral, and is apparently shared between the Diocese of Connor and the Diocese of Down and Dromore.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Up to 2000 and the creation of the Greater London Authority, the two cathedrals were not even in the same local authority area
Well, in the 14 years between Thatcher abolishing the GLC and the GLA being created that was the case.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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Aberdeen has three. It was hard work visiting them all on our one day in the city, as we left our car on the seafront and walked from one to the other via the University, Art Gallery and the Maritime Museum. My favourite was this one, in the old town.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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Ah, just seen that you wanted 'of the same denomination'. Oh well. Guess you'll have to make do with Ripon, Leeds, Wakefield then. That's a tale and a half on its own....
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Ah, just seen that you wanted 'of the same denomination'. Oh well. Guess you'll have to make do with Ripon, Leeds, Wakefield then. That's a tale and a half on its own....
Surely you mean Ripon, Wakefield and Bradford. Oddly, Leeds doesn't have an Anglican cathedral despite the diocesan bishop being the Bishop of Leeds.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Up to 2000 and the creation of the Greater London Authority, the two cathedrals were not even in the same local authority area
Well, in the 14 years between Thatcher abolishing the GLC and the GLA being created that was the case.
If you want to get picky, I'm not sure they are in the same LA area even now: the GLA is a devolved body rather than a local government one.
But mention of St Anne's Belfast gives us a variant on this thread's theme- are there also other examples of a cathedral being shared by more than one diocese- of the same denomination or even of separate denominations?
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
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A slightly different approach here in the Upper South of the USA:
The first cathedral of the RC church 'west of the mountains' was Saint Joseph's in Bardstown, KY, which in those early days was a thriving market and trading sort of place. An imposing red brick building arose, and was eventually adorned with a series of large oil paintings, given them by King Louis Phillippe (who had spent part of his exile there).
Some years passed and Louisville (on the Ohio River) had become the larger and more important city. The bishop moved his 'chair' and his etceteras there and named a new cathedral, Cathedral of the Assumption.
However, Saint Joseph's was given the title of 'Proto-cathedral,' a term I've not seen used elsewhere. In my childhood, I thought it had some reference to 'protestant,' which would have upset them greatly!
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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What is the difference between a pro and a co?
I thought a pro cathedral is one that you have until you get a proper one.
The Anglican diocese of Europe has a three cathedrals - the main one at Brussels and two pro cathedrals at Valetta and Gibraltar, although there's no intention to replace them.
The RC diocese of Malta has two joint cathedrals, ie at Valetta and one at the old town in the middle of the island. They are both co cathedrals.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Anglican diocese of Europe has a three cathedrals - the main one at Brussels and two pro cathedrals at Valetta and Gibraltar, although there's no intention to replace them.
I think this is wrong - the Cathedral in in Gibraltar, Brussels is the pro. But to confuse things, the bishop actually resides in Brussels.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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Looked up Diocese of Europe's webpage. You're right. In main cathedral is at Gibraltar. But why are the other two pros and not cos or joints?
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
They ate
Tho' I guess, venbede, from your tagline that unless it is an ironic reference to Croydon
It is indeed a reference to Croydon, which is both totally accurate and completely misleading.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Looked up Diocese of Europe's webpage. You're right. In main cathedral is at Gibraltar. But why are the other two pros and not cos or joints?
My guess is that, at one point, they thought of having a diocese based on Malta, and that this was a first step. The pro-cathedral of Brussells, of course, was for the in-Europe base of the Diocese of London's jurisdiction and perhaps there was a reluctance to have a formal established presence on the territory of an existing diocese (Malines of 1559) even if it happened to be out of communion with Canterbury.
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Looked up Diocese of Europe's webpage. You're right. In main cathedral is at Gibraltar. But why are the other two pros and not cos or joints?
My guess is that, at one point, they thought of having a diocese based on Malta, and that this was a first step. The pro-cathedral of Brussells, of course, was for the in-Europe base of the Diocese of London's jurisdiction and perhaps there was a reluctance to have a formal established presence on the territory of an existing diocese (Malines of 1559) even if it happened to be out of communion with Canterbury.
I recently said something about this on another thread. The (Anglican) Diocese of Europe is unusual in that it covers a geographically very large area, but in terms of pockets of Anglican adherents, it is a thinly populated diocese, with scattered congregations (not all of them small ones) established here and there in in different parts of Europe.
In view of this, it would not make sense to have just ONE cathedral for the whole Diocese of Europe, for it would be a long way for those on the furthest outreaches to travel to get to a diocesan event at just one cathedral.
I hope you see what I am getting at and that this answers your question.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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Technically one building, one denomination, two cathedra ... bit that's just odd!
Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on
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The city of Zaragoza in north-eastern Spain has 2 cathedrals La Seo and the Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar, and both are situated in the city's main square.
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
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Another case of a cathedral with two cathedra:
The Washington National Cathedral (formally The Cathedral of Saints Peter and Paul) has a cathedra for the Bishop of Washington, and another for the Presiding Bishop of TEC, in which the newly elected PB will be formally seated on All Saints Day.
Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on
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I know this is a little pedantic, but if there's a place for pedantry this is it, right?
Isn't there really only one proper cathedra at the National Cathedral? And that is the Bishop of Washington's Cathedra, the Glastonbury Cathedra? Isn't the seat set aside for the Presiding bishop simply a stall for her in the choir? Since she's not a diocesan or metropolitan bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, I'm not sure the symbolism of an actual cathedra would be quite right.
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on
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As a US Episcopalian, this is all very confusing to me! (Even the bit about my denomination's National Cathedral.)
How can one diocese have two cathedrals? Does that usually result from a merger of two dioceses?
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
How can one diocese have two cathedrals? Does that usually result from a merger of two dioceses?
The Episcopal Diocese of Minnesota has one in Minneapolis and one in Faribault.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
How can one diocese have two cathedrals? Does that usually result from a merger of two dioceses?
The Episcopal Diocese of Minnesota has one in Minneapolis and one in Faribault.
Yes, we do. The one in Faribault was built when St. Paul was still Hogtown and not expected to amount to much. Faribault was the up and coming city. Things worked out differently, but the church in Faribault remained a co-cathedral when the bish's offices moved north.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
I know this is a little pedantic, but if there's a place for pedantry this is it, right?
Isn't there really only one proper cathedra at the National Cathedral? And that is the Bishop of Washington's Cathedra, the Glastonbury Cathedra? Isn't the seat set aside for the Presiding bishop simply a stall for her in the choir? Since she's not a diocesan or metropolitan bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, I'm not sure the symbolism of an actual cathedra would be quite right.
BullDog points out one of the original objections to the PB not being a diocesan bishop-- bishops are not a rank as are generals, but are rather an order of clergy serving a particular role in a local church. No diocese=no cathedra=no teaching authority=illogically a bishop. The argument was also raised when the Canadian primacy went non-diocesan (with the same result).
A possible exception might be a cathedra for the bishop of a non-territorial diocese or jurisdiction such as (in Canada) the Military Ordinariate or the jurisdiction of the National Aboriginal Bishop.
Two or more cathedrals in a diocese can come from all sorts of situations, from dioceses being united, or sees being moved, or a desire to honour a particular city or church. But it is a phenomenon which leans away from the Cyprianic doctrinal image of a bishop at the main altar of his diocese, exercising his teaching authority.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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Up to a point I agree. A rector I know says that he's the Archbishop's deputy, while the Regional Bishop is simply the Abp's curate. That takes us back to the earliest days of the growing church.
I'm not so sure about the bishops you cite. The Anglican Bishop to the Armed Forces has the members of those forces as a diocese, just not a territorial one. As yet, there's no national bishop to our ancient peoples; the first aboriginal bishop has recently been appointed in Adelaide to minister to them, just as Regional Bishops have the care of part of a diocese.
It sounds odd to me that neither the PB nor the Canadian Primate retains their diocese - that's what happens here, with an Anglican Church of approximately the same size - perhaps even larger.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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The Canadian military ordinariate is, as you suggest, a personal diocese. The National Indigenous Bishop has a sort-of-not-jurisdiction, in that First People's parishes are just part of their local territorial diocese, but that he has a pastoral responsibility toward them; as well, he ordains clergy for them working with diocesan bishops. It is an absolute canonical and ecclesiological mess, but Bishop Macdonald seems to be able to make it work (he also survived an attempt by PB Jefferts Schori to depose him from the episcopacy as they couldn't quite figure out how to deal with a bishop moving from TEC, where he had been Bishop of Alaska, to the ACC).
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on
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Further to what Augustine has said, the Canadian Primate ceased being a diocesan after a particularly difficult period. Four of the first seven Primates were from the same diocese - Rupertsland -- based in WInnipeg, a three-day drive from Toronto where the Anglican CHurch of Canada is based. In the 1960s, before air travel became relatively cheap and easy, the PRimate was a wonderful man, Howard Clark, who suffered bitterly with arthritis in his back. Several sessions with the Primate immovable in his bed in WInnipeg and the committees etc sitting useless in Toronto convinced the church, I think, to let the Primate leave his diocese and be based in TOronto, where the bulk of his work was.
At that time as well, it was unusual for there to be a suffragan. Rupertsland gave +++Clark one that it really couldn't afford, whose vision of his office was a lot less than it should have been. (Interestingly, John Red River as he was known was part Cree, though I'm not sure which side of the blanket that was from, so he was in a sense our first aboriginal bishop. At the time, though, this was not spoken of.)
John
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
How can one diocese have two cathedrals? Does that usually result from a merger of two dioceses?
That's pretty much it. For instance, here in England, the three dioceses of Ripon & Leeds, Wakefield and Bradford merged to create a new "super diocese" of West Yorkshire and The Dales. AFAIK the three cathedrals retained their status.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
How can one diocese have two cathedrals? Does that usually result from a merger of two dioceses?
Sort of. The Diocese of Argyll and the Diocese of the Isles (or Sodor; as a Thomas the Tank Engine fan I do like that I live in Sodor) both had Cathedrals in the mediaeval period (Lismore and Iona/Skye respectively) but the modern Cathedrals date from after the merger and neither is in the same location.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... he also survived an attempt by PB Jefferts Schori to depose him from the episcopacy as they couldn't quite figure out how to deal with a bishop moving from TEC, where he had been Bishop of Alaska, to the ACC ...
Tangent alert
Could you explain that please. If ACC stands for Anglican Church of Canada, it sounds shocking.
Is that an attempt by one primate to meddle in the affairs of another Province, or a claim that as a primate one is entitled to tell one's diocesans not to change jobs?
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... he also survived an attempt by PB Jefferts Schori to depose him from the episcopacy as they couldn't quite figure out how to deal with a bishop moving from TEC, where he had been Bishop of Alaska, to the ACC ...
Tangent alert
Could you explain that please. If ACC stands for Anglican Church of Canada, it sounds shocking.
Is that an attempt by one primate to meddle in the affairs of another Province, or a claim that as a primate one is entitled to tell one's diocesans not to change jobs?
It appears to have been a canonical cockup as either the PB or someone in her office could not figure out how bishops transferred from one province to another. It puzzled many of us at the time, but was straightened out with a few telephone calls and some paperwork. As it was at a period of some TEC bishops trying to transfer themselves to the Southern Cone or Rwanda, TEC staff likely totally misunderstood what was going on (one unkind observer at the time said that Rwanda and Canada are easily confused, especially in February).
[ 08. July 2015, 11:36: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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Well I suppose they're both places where some people are benighted enough to speak French.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Ah, just seen that you wanted 'of the same denomination'. Oh well. Guess you'll have to make do with Ripon, Leeds, Wakefield then. That's a tale and a half on its own....
Surely you mean Ripon, Wakefield and Bradford. Oddly, Leeds doesn't have an Anglican cathedral despite the diocesan bishop being the Bishop of Leeds.
Leeds does not have a Cathedral because prior to the merger it was part of the Diocese of Leeds and Ripon. Due to historic reason Ripon has long had a Cathedral so there was no need for one in Leeds. For those who are unaware of history, Leeds was a relatively minor town, I think*, until 18th Century and the industrial revolution. Wakefield was larger.
Jengie
*I am recalling information taught me when I was junior school age.
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
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Just a couple of TEC / Washington Cathedral clarifications:
1) There is a proper throne for the PB, directly opposite that of the Bp of Washington (or at least there was the last time I looked!) There are also 'places in choir' for both of them.
2) Originally in TEC there was some scrambling around as to how the PB should be chosen, within a few years it became a matter of seniority by date of consecration, and that Bp did not relinquish his diocese. This changed to election in the 1940s IIRC.
It was proposed at the recent General Convention that the Bp elected as PB should retain his/her diocese, but this proposal did not receive approval. (I think I got all that right!)
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin is the national Cathedral - for the Province, if you like. Christ Church Cathedral is the diocesan Cathedral. St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral serves the RC Archdiocese.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Leeds does not have a Cathedral because prior to the merger it was part of the Diocese of Leeds and Ripon.
Ripon and Leeds actually, not Leeds and Ripon. Until fairly recently (about 10-15 years ago) it was simply the Diocese of Ripon.
Although Ripon Minster is an ancient church, it's only been a cathedral since 1836 when the diocese was carved out of the diocese of York
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin is the national Cathedral - for the Province, if you like. Christ Church Cathedral is the diocesan Cathedral. St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral serves the RC Archdiocese.
Yes, I know all that. But does st Patrick's actually have a cathedra, and if it does whose is it?
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin is the national Cathedral - for the Province, if you like. Christ Church Cathedral is the diocesan Cathedral. St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral serves the RC Archdiocese.
Yes, I know all that. But does st Patrick's actually have a cathedra, and if it does whose is it?
Sorry, I am not the person to answer that.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Someone like Anselmina or Ronald Binge would know.
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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There are two, both identical, opposite each other.
The Archbishop of Dublin also has a prebendal stall.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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So a cathedra for each of the Primates (++Armagh and ++Dublin)?
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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Well this thread has proved to be a relief to me: It's not just the nutty Orthodox with cathedrals galore in one place. My own modest metropolis has, at my last count, seven Orthodox cathedrals. How does one spell Scandal?
Now, when is that Great and Holy Council? Have we all got our hotel reservations?
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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There was talk, at one time, of re-joining Truro with Exeter. But not sure how serious that was - it would certainly lead to a lot of tricky journeys given size of see and the relatively rural road structure.
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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Posted by Albertus:
quote:
So a cathedra for each of the Primates (++Armagh and ++Dublin)?
Yep.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There was talk, at one time, of re-joining Truro with Exeter. But not sure how serious that was - it would certainly lead to a lot of tricky journeys given size of see and the relatively rural road structure.
At least it would mostly be on a contiguous piece of land. Our Bishop has been in office nearly 4 years and hasn't made it to all the inhabited islands yet.
Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on
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In the US (Midwest), there is St. Paul's Cathedral in St. Paul, MN, and the Basilica of St. Mary (co-cathedral) in Minneapolis, MN.
And in the Diocese of Ft.Wayne-South Bend, the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Ft. Wayne, IN, and the Co-Cathedral of St. Matthew in South Bend, IN.
Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
St Patrick's is the National Cathedral of the Church of Ireland, with prebendal stalls for each diocese, and the Dean is Dean and Ordinary. All clear? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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I've known a few ordinary deans. Perhaps even relate to the idea with all the insight of a perpendicular pronoun.
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Well I suppose they're both places where some people are benighted enough to speak French.
That's not funny.
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on
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Augustine -- your pm box is full.
John
Posted by AndyB (# 10186) on
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The Archbishop of Dublin is the sole Bishop on the Chapter of St Patrick's Cathedral, and there is a Cathedra on the south side, opposite the reading desk.
St Anne's Cathedral was built while Down, Dromore and Connor was a single diocese, and when Connor was split off in 1945, it continued to serve for both dioceses. Thus, Down and Dromore has 2.5 dioceses, although St Anne's is physically in Connor diocese, and its clergy are attached to Connor diocese.
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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quote:
Originally posted by AndyB:
The Archbishop of Dublin is the sole Bishop on the Chapter of St Patrick's Cathedral, and there is a Cathedra on the south side, opposite the reading desk.
St Anne's Cathedral was built while Down, Dromore and Connor was a single diocese, and when Connor was split off in 1945, it continued to serve for both dioceses. Thus, Down and Dromore has 2.5 dioceses, although St Anne's is physically in Connor diocese, and its clergy are attached to Connor diocese.
I understand that St. Ann's (Anglican) Cathedral is in Belfast and not in Dublin. St. Ann's Church Dublin (also Anglican) is not a cathedral.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AndyB:
The Archbishop of Dublin is the sole Bisho Thus, Down and Dromore has 2.5 dioceses, although St Anne's is physically in Connor diocese, and its clergy are attached to Connor diocese.
Don't understand 2.5 dioceses. (Query - is "diocese" - pron dio cease - the plural of diocese - pron dio cess?)
I knew Andy was talking about two seperate cities.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Andy can answer for himself but I read 'diocese' as a simple mistake for 'cathedral'- Down, Dromore, and a half share in St Anne's Belfast = 2.5.
Posted by AndyB (# 10186) on
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I'm allowed a wee mistake in my first post in months...
St Anne's Cathedral is in Belfast. St Ann's parish church (without the e) is in Dublin, at least the one in question anyway.
Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on
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In Yorkshire, there are now 3 cathedrals in 1 diocese - none of them where the bishop takes his title.
Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on
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Due to events in history, the Russian tradition of the Orthodox Church in the UK is represented by three separate groups (all in communion with each other). As the historic London parish has morphed over the years and the various members of the original community have aligned themselves with the different groups, three parishes now exist in London, each dedicated to the Dormition (Assumption) of the Most Holy Mother of God.
Two of these are cathedrals.
- Chiswick
- Knightbridge
- Holborn
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
In Yorkshire, there are now 3 cathedrals in 1 diocese - none of them where the bishop takes his title.
As several people have already pointed out on this thread
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
When I asked a priest of the Greek Orthodox church in London why they had so many cathedrals, he explained that any bishop in the diocese had to have a cathedral. I may have misunderstood that. But certainly there are a number of Greek Orthodox churches in London which are cathedrals as well as the main one in Bayswater.
Posted by VerilyVerily (# 18435) on
:
Likewise the Diocese of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island has two, one in Halifax and one in Charlottetown.
Most people here forget that there's two since the one in Halifax is seen as *the* Cathedral.
The histories are complicated, but basically a former bishop who was influenced by the Tractarians wanted to establish a cathedral on PEI and went to St. Paul's, the already well established Anglican church there. St. Paul's, where a candle had never graced the altar, blocked the bishop at the door and told him and his Tractarianism to take a hike.
Not long after he went down into the poor neighbourhood where St. Peter's stood as a chapel of ease and made it the Cathedral. St. Peter's remains an "anglo-Catholic"/Tractarian church, using the Canadian BCP, Prayer Book Lectionary, and high liturgy.
http://www.stpeter.org/cathedra.html
http://www.cathedralchurchofallsaints.com/
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain has seven cathedrals listed on their website. There is one in Birmingham and six in London.
My understanding is that it is all one diocese - I can't believe they have separate dioceses for Camden Town and Kentish Town. I was told once by a Greek priest (cradle Orthodox to English convert parents) that they are the churches of assistant bishops in the diocese.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
But the oddity is that the website only mentions four assistant bishops, one of whom is the Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware).
And there's six cathedrals.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
The Archdioces of Thyateira also has seventh cathedral in Glasgow.
Posted by decampagne (# 17012) on
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As well as the RC cathedrals at Westminster and Southwark, there is also a Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral, just off Oxford Street.
It's not uncommon in countries in which RC dioceses have been merged over the years (or centuries), for each of the former constituent dioceses to retain their own (co-)cathedrals. Italy has countless examples of this.
A different case, but also in Italy is Brescia, where the "Old", Romanesque, Winter Co-Cathedral sits immediately next to the "New" Baroque, Summer Cathedral"
Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on
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There are two (understated and modestly-sized) Anglican Cathedrals in Birmingham: St Philip's and St Paul's
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
There are two (understated and modestly-sized) Anglican Cathedrals in Birmingham: St Philip's and St Paul's
OddJob, do I understand you correctly and are you saying what you mean to say?
In Birmingham West Midlands, the Anglican Cathedral is St. Philip's. I understand that there is a St. Paul's Church, which is not a cathedral. The RC Cathedral there, is St. Chad's.
Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on
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You're correct, EFF. I've just googled and realised that 'Cathedral' is a grandiose local term awarded to St. Paul's.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
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Nothing "grandiose" involved. A cathedral is the church where the bishop has his cathedra, and is the mother church for the diocese.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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There is, of course, the occasional practice of non-episcopal churches having cathedrals to emphasize their importance- Toronto's former Queensway Cathedral which has become Church on the Queensway is an example. Not to mention the Cathedral of Chocolate (no longer in business, sadly) or the Cathedral of Learning, which appears to be an administrative building at the University of Pennsylvania at Oakland.
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
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And of course in Scotland there is 'Highland cathedral' for no particular diocese and no particular denomination. It is a piece of very popular Scottish type music written by two Berliners (who certainly weren't doughnuts ).
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
And of course in Scotland there is 'Highland cathedral' for no particular diocese and no particular denomination. It is a piece of very popular Scottish type music written by two Berliners (who certainly weren't doughnuts ).
And this same 'Highland Cathedral' played by organ and bagpipes has become a nearly ubiquitous feature (curse) at weddings in the SE states of the US. (IMNSHO)
Posted by JeffTL (# 16722) on
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The Episcopal Diocese of Nebraska (USA) has Trinity Cathedral in downtown Omaha, which I recall to be the oldest Anglican congregation in that state. But there is also St. Mark's Pro-Cathedral, Hastings, a Ralph Adams Cram building that was formerly the mother church of the Missionary District of Western Nebraska from 1918 until 1946 when that district was absorbed into the Diocese of Nebraska.
As a contrast, St. Paul's in Peoria, Illinois, was historically the cathedral of the Diocese of Quincy from 1962 onward, but when Quincy was resorbed into the Diocese of Chicago (the successor entity to the old Diocese of Illinois from whence it came) in 2003 following large realignment losses, the sole cathedral remained St. James, Chicago, with St. Paul's reverting to parochial status.
Wikipedia also reports that Iowa (TEC) has two cathedrals - St. Paul, Des Moines, being the liturgical cathedral without compromising the status of the more remote Trinity, Dubuque - much as Brooklyn (RC) has the Co-Cathedral of St. Joseph, which has a greater seating capacity than the Cathedral Basilica of St. James (both of which are in Brooklyn, though the diocese also includes Queens).
Otherwise there are cities with cathedrals for more than one jurisdiction of the same denomination, such as the two Roman Catholic cathedrals of Chicago, Holy Name (Latin Rite) and St. Nicholas (Ukrainian Catholic). In the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston you have St. Mary's in Galveston, Sacred Heart Co-Cathedral in Houston, *and* the principal church of the Ordinariate of the Chair of Peter, Our Lady of Walsingham also in Houston.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
Doing a bit of church crawling on Romney Marsh, we visited Ivychurch yesterday.
Given Ivychurch is one pub and ten house I was mighty impressed that the church was loved cared for, welcoming and used, despite being only one of some six churches under one vicar. (I met her in the High Street of New Romney and congratulated her warmly).
http://www.kentchurches.info/%5Cimages%5CIvychurch.JPG
The point here is the notice board said "Ivychurch, the Cathedral of Romney Marsh". It is in fact in the diocese of Canterbury.
It is just an example of using "cathedral" to mean "large church".
[ 22. August 2015, 09:03: Message edited by: venbede ]
Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on
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quote:
the RCs reckon Dublin has three cathedrals. One pro, and two amateurs.
And of course, amateurs do things for love, professionals for money.
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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There is certainly one amateur anyway, seeing that my information came first hand from a canon of said national disgrace! Apologies for the misinformation.
Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
London has two Anglican cathedrals on opposite sides of the river - St Paul's and Southwark
Well, I hate to play stickler here, however, St. Paul's is in the City of London proper whereas Southwark -- a much newer cathedral -- is outside the boundaries of the city proper and historically was part of the County of Surrey. As such, they're in different political jurisdictions.
Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
What is the difference between a pro and a co?
I thought a pro cathedral is one that you have until you get a proper one.
The Anglican diocese of Europe has a three cathedrals - the main one at Brussels and two pro cathedrals at Valetta and Gibraltar, although there's no intention to replace them.
The RC diocese of Malta has two joint cathedrals, ie at Valetta and one at the old town in the middle of the island. They are both co cathedrals.
Roman Catholic Diocese of Marquette (aka Michigan's Upper Peninsula) has its cathedral in Marquette while Sault Sainte Marie--one of the oldest cities in the United States with one of the oldest Roman Catholic parishes in the country--is the pro-cathedral.
Interestingly, the other Sault Sainte Marie--on the Canadian side of the Saint Mary's River--also has a Roman Catholic cathedral as well as an Anglican cathedral.
Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams. One would think they would reach an agreement with the Canadian Anglicans in the other Sault Sainte Marie, but for whatever reason they have almost no relationship whatsoever. It's really, really, really odd.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
I have an idea that at one time St Mary Overie (now Southwark Cathedral) was in the City of London ward of Bridge Without- which still continued in theory to exist, in a sense, until 1978, long after the church had become a Cathedral. So....
[ 08. January 2016, 21:50: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
:
Meet and Right So to Do posts:
quote:
Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams. One would think they would reach an agreement with the Canadian Anglicans in the other Sault Sainte Marie, but for whatever reason they have almost no relationship whatsoever. It's really, really, really odd.
The Diocese of Northern Michigan never really got over the 2009 denial of consents to the election of Kevin Forrester (lots of stuff about his Zen practices and baptismal theology available on the internet for the curious) and was without a bishop for four years. A call informed me that there appears to be no real relation between the Diocese of Algoma and that of N Michigan-- this might have been a useful case for support at a difficult time, and even now, given the Upper Peninsula's remoteness. There are very few cross-border links between the two churches-- I know that in the early 1970s, there was some talk about a cross-border diocese in the Saint Lawrence River area, with bits of Albany, Ottawa, and Ontario, but nobody took it seriously.
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams.
This is a matter for Purgatory, I think, rather than Ecclesiantics, but why do you regard a dearth of "classically trained clergy" as an indication that the diocese is "basically dead"? Lots of dioceses replete with classically trained clergy have seemed dead to me over the last 50 or so years I have been considering such things. And in a couple of places in Canada -- The Arctic, parts of the dioceses in BC, and northern Ontario -- where the church is anything but dead, "classically trained clergy" are so rare as to be irrelevant.
I'd also wonder -- but again this is not a matter for Eccles -- why you think so little of ministry support groups -- and why you refer to them as "so-called"?
John
Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams.
This is a matter for Purgatory, I think, rather than Ecclesiantics, but why do you regard a dearth of "classically trained clergy" as an indication that the diocese is "basically dead"? Lots of dioceses replete with classically trained clergy have seemed dead to me over the last 50 or so years I have been considering such things. And in a couple of places in Canada -- The Arctic, parts of the dioceses in BC, and northern Ontario -- where the church is anything but dead, "classically trained clergy" are so rare as to be irrelevant.
I'd also wonder -- but again this is not a matter for Eccles -- why you think so little of ministry support groups -- and why you refer to them as "so-called"?
John
Because this diocese has been dying off since the 1920s and 1930s, when industry and population left the Upper Peninsula. They have some of the worst attendance, confirmation and baptism statistics in the entire Episcopal Church, too.
Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Meet and Right So to Do posts:
quote:
Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams. One would think they would reach an agreement with the Canadian Anglicans in the other Sault Sainte Marie, but for whatever reason they have almost no relationship whatsoever. It's really, really, really odd.
The Diocese of Northern Michigan never really got over the 2009 denial of consents to the election of Kevin Forrester (lots of stuff about his Zen practices and baptismal theology available on the internet for the curious) and was without a bishop for four years. A call informed me that there appears to be no real relation between the Diocese of Algoma and that of N Michigan-- this might have been a useful case for support at a difficult time, and even now, given the Upper Peninsula's remoteness. There are very few cross-border links between the two churches-- I know that in the early 1970s, there was some talk about a cross-border diocese in the Saint Lawrence River area, with bits of Albany, Ottawa, and Ontario, but nobody took it seriously.
Definitely a lot there to discussion--probably in another thread on another board. But, yeah. Even the diocese's own history concedes it's been dying for a long time. Apparently, there was an effort to split it into three--parts going to Minnesota, parts to Wisconsin and parts to Algoma in Canada back in the 1930s but it never went there.
I get the impression this is a left John Shelby Spong-inspired diocese whereas Algoma is probably significantly more conservative.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
... I get the impression this is a left John Shelby Spong-inspired diocese ...
Might that also have something to do with why it is dying? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
This gay man thinks of Bishop Spong as a patronising menace. I remember going to some talk by him in London where he was hailed as a liberator in which he said "Ten years ago I didn't know any gay men" and I thought why was I listening to him, when he needed to listen to me?
Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Archdioces of Thyateira also has seventh cathedral in Glasgow.
I get the impression that Orthodoxy uses the term 'cathedral', which is maybe a western term, for any largish church, or maybe as an honorary title like RC minor basilicas or the CofE's recent use of 'minster'. They don't actually contain the cathedra of any bishop. Look at Moscow, with cathedrals all over the place, most of them, I think, more imperial than episcopal churches.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
:
This tangent and the OP do have an interesting conjuncture. S Paul's in Marquette surrendered its cathedral status in 1939 and a diocesan convention in 1954 selected Grace Church in Menominee to be the cathedral, but surrendered its status as well in 1976 as the disappearance of passenger rail travel made it inaccessible to most of the diocese and perhaps the most possibly remote parish from the others.
The diocesan history continues: quote:
"The places boiled down to one or two," wrote Bishop Page. "Neither Marquette or Sault Ste. Marie wanted the cathedral. Iron Mountain would have taken it to help out. Escanaba, also a logical place, seemingly knew nothing about it. This resulted from a mixup due to the illness of the rector. The result of the balloting was in favor of Menominee.
"Today this may seem a strange choice, but at that time the trains ran from Ishpeming to Chicago, from the Soo to Chicago and from Gladstone one could go to the west via Minneapolis and St. Paul. Also the air service from Menominee was in full swing."
The diocesan canons were redrafted to protect the rights and property of Grace Church -- rights St. Paul's in Marquette did not have when it gave up its Cathedral status in 1939. According to Page, having the cathedral in Menominee proved advantageous for the diocese for many years, until circumstances served to isolate Menominee somewhat more from the rest of the diocese.
While the newer model, with the bishop's cathedra effectively being behind the wheel of his car, has a theoretical attraction to it, the absence of even the most minimal base of operations might not have helped the diocese deliver on its mutual ministry model. While one is tempted to blame the Sponginess of its leanings for its troubles, a review of the diocesan history will also tell us of one bishop's imprisonment for embezzlement, a series of conventions where an elected candidate refused the mitre, and the death of another in a tragic accident, which was followed by a four-year vacancy-in-see after the zen bishop fiasco.
While the presence of classically-trained clergy is not a panacea-- John Holding delicately describes what I have also seen-- I wonder that, if in this case, an infrastructure-light diocesan centre with a patristically-learned teaching bishop might not have directed them toward addressing some of their problems. Spong is probably not the model of apostolic witness they need and there are other examples available (Thomas Wilson of Sodor and Man, or good old S Cyprian), but I wish them well in managing this.
Surely, with all of the spare cathedrals with which this thread deals, can one of them not be sent to the Upper Peninsula?
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
I have been searching (so far unsuccessfully) for confirmation of this, but IIRC in the days before Christ Church, Cincinnati (Ohio, USA) was elevated to cathedral status, at least one of the bishops of Southern Ohio had a house trailer called 'Cathedral of the Open Road.'
(It's one of those things that SHOULD be true, even if it is NOT!)
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
:
It appears that our Diocese of Northern Michigan as well as the Diocese of North Dakota both had 4-0-4 cathedrals.
Truth, as always, is stranger than fiction, and in the world of cathedrals, reality once again trumps our fantasies.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
It appears that our Diocese of Northern Michigan as well as the Diocese of North Dakota both had 4-0-4 cathedrals.
Truth, as always, is stranger than fiction, and in the world of cathedrals, reality once again trumps our fantasies.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Not only that. They've all got clerestories, even the Baptist ones.
Incidentally, Wells, St Asaph, Brecon and St David's haven't got railway stations. St David's has never had one.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
Nor has Ripon. Though there is a campaign to bring back the railway (just as the cathedral has to share the honour with two others in the amalgamated diocese).
Southwell I think is another non-rail connected cathedral.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Indeed, and here is a short video of it. Rolleston (Junction) station is about 3 miles away and still open.
I'd like to see the Ripon line reopen, I think it would be viable economically and it would revitalise the town.
[ 09. January 2016, 19:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
This tangent and the OP do have an interesting conjuncture. S Paul's in Marquette surrendered its cathedral status in 1939 and a diocesan convention in 1954 selected Grace Church in Menominee to be the cathedral, but surrendered its status as well in 1976 as the disappearance of passenger rail travel made it inaccessible to most of the diocese and perhaps the most possibly remote parish from the others.
The diocesan history continues: quote:
"The places boiled down to one or two," wrote Bishop Page. "Neither Marquette or Sault Ste. Marie wanted the cathedral. Iron Mountain would have taken it to help out. Escanaba, also a logical place, seemingly knew nothing about it. This resulted from a mixup due to the illness of the rector. The result of the balloting was in favor of Menominee.
"Today this may seem a strange choice, but at that time the trains ran from Ishpeming to Chicago, from the Soo to Chicago and from Gladstone one could go to the west via Minneapolis and St. Paul. Also the air service from Menominee was in full swing."
The diocesan canons were redrafted to protect the rights and property of Grace Church -- rights St. Paul's in Marquette did not have when it gave up its Cathedral status in 1939. According to Page, having the cathedral in Menominee proved advantageous for the diocese for many years, until circumstances served to isolate Menominee somewhat more from the rest of the diocese.
While the newer model, with the bishop's cathedra effectively being behind the wheel of his car, has a theoretical attraction to it, the absence of even the most minimal base of operations might not have helped the diocese deliver on its mutual ministry model. While one is tempted to blame the Sponginess of its leanings for its troubles, a review of the diocesan history will also tell us of one bishop's imprisonment for embezzlement, a series of conventions where an elected candidate refused the mitre, and the death of another in a tragic accident, which was followed by a four-year vacancy-in-see after the zen bishop fiasco.
While the presence of classically-trained clergy is not a panacea-- John Holding delicately describes what I have also seen-- I wonder that, if in this case, an infrastructure-light diocesan centre with a patristically-learned teaching bishop might not have directed them toward addressing some of their problems. Spong is probably not the model of apostolic witness they need and there are other examples available (Thomas Wilson of Sodor and Man, or good old S Cyprian), but I wish them well in managing this.
Surely, with all of the spare cathedrals with which this thread deals, can one of them not be sent to the Upper Peninsula?
It hardly gave up the cathedral. The diocese went bankrupt due to an embezzlement and the parish at the cathedral didn't want the liability and basically threw the bishop out. You could say this diocese has been doomed to death for a long, long time. The loss of population after the last of the heavy industry and mining operations closed down by the 1930s really hurt it. The rest is history.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Nor has Ripon. Though there is a campaign to bring back the railway (just as the cathedral has to share the honour with two others in the amalgamated diocese).
Southwell I think is another non-rail connected cathedral.
Don't I bloody know it. Back in the days when I relied on public transport I had the "interesting" experience of getting to both places. Southwell was the worst. Have you ever been in Newark bus station at 6pm on a Saturday?
[ 09. January 2016, 20:33: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Indeed, and here is a short video of it. Rolleston (Junction) station is about 3 miles away and still open.
I'd like to see the Ripon line reopen, I think it would be viable economically and it would revitalise the town.
Millers Dale to Buxton had those, and also sometimes one of the LMS Lemon ones.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
[For those who haven't a clue what Enoch is going on about, let me explain that he is talking about the steam engine on the Southwell train. Similar locomotives were built towards the end of Ernest Lemon's brief tenure as Chief Mechanical Engineer on the erstwhile London, Midland and Scottish Railway. Miller's Dale to Buxton was a branch line in Derbyshire.
This doesn't have much to do with cathedrals, although it could be argued that some cities have or had more than one "cathedral to steam" (i.e. great station) belonging to different denominations (i.e. companies). Glasgow comes to mind, with Central (Caledonian), St. Enoch (Glasgow and South Western) and Queen Street (North British); and there is also Manchester with London Road (London & North Western) and Central (Midland). Of course Birmingham New Street was more ecumenical, with Midland and North Western sitting side by side; but the truest union was to be seen at Carlisle Citadel).
[ 09. January 2016, 22:08: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
P.S. Why did I let myself get so carried away? Sorry ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
...the truest union was to be seen at Carlisle Citadel...
Doubtless under the auspices of the Salvation Army.
And I see that the Caledonian Railway were involved. Was there some kind of ferrovial Columba Declaration?
[ 09. January 2016, 22:16: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
You might well say so. The station was owned by the Lancaster & Carlisle (later the London & North Western) and Caledonian Railways. The other five railway companies operating into Carlisle were all tenants: the Midland, North Eastern, Maryport & Carlisle from England, the North British and Glasgow & South Western from Scotland.
The Salvation Army didn't exist when the station opened!
[ 10. January 2016, 07:19: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
P.S. Why did I let myself get so carried away? Sorry .
Please do. Even if undeniably a tangent it's much more interesting than the original question. And St Pancras not only has a patron saint, but looks like a cathedral.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
And Keleti station in Budapest even has statues of its patron saints in niches on the west frontage: George Stephenson and James Watt (neither of whom had anything to so with building it, AFAIK).
[ 10. January 2016, 07:49: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
IIRC, Sue Bridehead in Thomas Hardy's Jude the Obscure observes that the railway station in Melchester (I think - Hardy's name for Salisbury) is of rather more relevance than the cathedral.....
I.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
As it happens there was a verger from Los Angeles at church on Sunday. He was going on to Carlisle to spend a week as a locum.
He informed me the Anglican diocese of Los Angeles has two cathedrals.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
:
The Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles has a Cathedral Center of St. Paul with a smallish parish congregation (St. Athanasius), offices, meeting rooms, and a retreat center. Then for big, liturgical functions like large ordination groups, there is the procathedral of St. John.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
He informed me the Anglican diocese of Los Angeles has two cathedrals.
Episcopal dioceses with two cathedrals are necessary to balance the dioceses with no cathedral at all.
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You might well say so. The station was owned by the Lancaster & Carlisle (later the London & North Western) and Caledonian Railways. The other five railway companies operating into Carlisle were all tenants: the Midland, North Eastern, Maryport & Carlisle from England, the North British and Glasgow & South Western from Scotland.
The Salvation Army didn't exist when the station opened!
Amateurs.
Kansas City Union Station was served by 12 railroads and St. Louis Union Station by 22.
Who knew, a railway thread in Eccles! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
The American verger did tell me that the original LA cathedral was barely larger than the church hall we were standing in at the time.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Amateurs.
Kansas City Union Station was served by 12 railroads and St. Louis Union Station by 22.
Who knew, a railway thread in Eccles!
That's quite something. Did all 22 run trains every day? How near did they get to the station without having to use running powers?
Am I right that in North American parlance, a Union station is a joint one so as to encourage all the lines into a city should come to the same station? That's a concept that alas never caught on here. There were a few joint stations, but even quite small towns often had several stations, not always even connected.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Sometimes quite definitely NOT connected - e.g. Victoria (Brighton line and South Eastern line) stations adjoined, but you had to go outside to get from one to the other. It was only post-Grouping that the Southern Railway made a hole in the wall to join the concourses and put in a running connection (and even that wasn't much used).
Ferro-ecumenism is clearly a modern concept!
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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Los Angeles' Union Station is very cathedral-like inside and out.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Well it would be if it were bigger ... although not all cathedrals are large, I admit.
But what about Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus in Mumbai? Both inside and outside it is very grand. Some of the details look very ecclesiastical - or like Machester Town Hall on Speed?
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But what about Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus in Mumbai? Both inside and outside it is very grand. Some of the details look very ecclesiastical - or like Machester Town Hall on Speed?
I'm pretty sure I recall hearing that the British architect behind the imposing Bombay terminus was consciously attempting to replicate (perhaps up?) the grand design of St Pancras in London. I don't know if either was deliberately designed with the grandiosity of Cathedrals in mind, but it wouldn't be much of a surprise.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Well, don't know about VT, but given that St Pancras (hotel) is by George Gilbert Scott, I wouldn't be in the least surprised! (Tho' the story that he just used his unsuccessful design for the new Foreign Office buildings is I think a myth, isn't it?)
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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I think so, yes.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... Saint Anne's is an interesting sort of cathedral, and is apparently shared between the Diocese of Connor and the Diocese of Down and Dromore.
When Belfast was given "city" status in the late 19th century, they decided they ought to have a cathedral. They built the present St. Anne's (I understand the dedication to St. Anne was because the wife of the landlord of the area was called Anne) round the old parish church, and demolished the old church inside it (which is why it's so long and high). It was dedicated in 1904.
It's not a "diocesan" cathedral; because half the city is in the Diocese of Connor and half in the Diocese of Down & Dromore, the respective Bishops both have thrones, but the Bishop of Connor has precedence because the Cathedral is situated in his diocese. His Diocesan cathedral is at Lisburn, and the Bishop of Down & Dromore has two Diocesan cathedrals, one at Downpatrick and the other at Dromore.
Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have been searching (so far unsuccessfully) for confirmation of this, but IIRC in the days before Christ Church, Cincinnati (Ohio, USA) was elevated to cathedral status, at least one of the bishops of Southern Ohio had a house trailer called 'Cathedral of the Open Road.'
(It's one of those things that SHOULD be true, even if it is NOT!)
Reminds me a bit of our old Fenland Ark. Also some photos and maps.
[ 13. January 2016, 10:41: Message edited by: David Goode ]
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
It's not a "diocesan" cathedral;
Which means to me that it's not a cathedral at all. I suppose it is an additional cathedral for two different diocese. (Is the plural of "diocese" - pron diosiss - "diocese" - pron diocease?)
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Reminds me a bit of our old Fenland Ark. Also some photos and maps.
Nice. It looks like a waterborne version of the railway carriages linked to earlier in this thread.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... Is the plural of "diocese" - pron diosiss - "diocese" - pron diocease?)
No - the plural is, rather oddly, dioceses (pronounced "dio-seizes").
If you don't believe me, try the Oxford Dictionary.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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Thanks, piglet, that makes sense.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
It's not a "diocesan" cathedral;
Which means to me that it's not a cathedral at all. I suppose it is an additional cathedral for two different diocese. (Is the plural of "diocese" - pron diosiss - "diocese" - pron diocease?)
I think we would all prefer the Cyprianic purity of one bishop, one city, one cathedral, one diocese, but sadly those days are behind us (Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales, anybody?).
Several French dioceses have a multiplicity of cathedrals owing to: a) the unification/ reconstitution of dioceses under Napoleon's concordat and the concordat of 1817, and b) J2P2's rejigging of French dioceses and provinces. The archdiocese of Albi, for example, also has a cathedral in Castres, and the archdiocese of Auch has extra cathedrals in Condom, Lectoure and Lombez. (Tangent alert: For extra confusion, these archbishoprics are only honorary, as they attach to the metropolis of Toulouse) As the extra dioceses were suppressed and theoretically no longer exist, you could argue that they are not diocesan cathedrals. The same sort of logic applies to a few CoI dioceses, where (e.g.) Ferns and Leighlin were united in 1597 but retain two cathedrals, then merged with Ossory, to be a diocese with three cathedrals and now united with Cashel, Waterford, and Lismore to be a diocese with six cathedrals-- this discussion was complicated as different conjunctions of dioceses continued as independent entities until 2013.
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
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Reflecting on the 'floating Fenland' entity, in earlier years (19th cent?) the Seaman's Church Institute supported (floated?) one or more smallish ships outfitted as chapels in New York harbor. These were designed to minister to seamen on the various ships in the harbor and docks. How long these operated or how successful they were, I know not.
Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
It's not a "diocesan" cathedral;
Which means to me that it's not a cathedral at all. I suppose it is an additional cathedral for two different diocese. (Is the plural of "diocese" - pron diosiss - "diocese" - pron diocease?)
I think we would all prefer the Cyprianic purity of one bishop, one city, one cathedral, one diocese, but sadly those days are behind us (Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales, anybody?).
Several French dioceses have a multiplicity of cathedrals owing to: a) the unification/ reconstitution of dioceses under Napoleon's concordat and the concordat of 1817, and b) J2P2's rejigging of French dioceses and provinces. The archdiocese of Albi, for example, also has a cathedral in Castres, and the archdiocese of Auch has extra cathedrals in Condom, Lectoure and Lombez. (Tangent alert: For extra confusion, these archbishoprics are only honorary, as they attach to the metropolis of Toulouse) As the extra dioceses were suppressed and theoretically no longer exist, you could argue that they are not diocesan cathedrals. The same sort of logic applies to a few CoI dioceses, where (e.g.) Ferns and Leighlin were united in 1597 but retain two cathedrals, then merged with Ossory, to be a diocese with three cathedrals and now united with Cashel, Waterford, and Lismore to be a diocese with six cathedrals-- this discussion was complicated as different conjunctions of dioceses continued as independent entities until 2013.
Also the case in Italy, eg the Archdiocese of Ravenna-Cervia, with co-cathedrals in each city. I suspect the merging of Italian dioceses, some very small, will continue.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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The idea has not gone away. This barge has been around in West India Dock for a good ten or fifteen years.
There also used to be a little (land-based) chapel in St. Katharine's Dock but that is now a branch of Starbucks ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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(Clearly my post refers to the last-but-one before it).
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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Somebody has to say it. So there was once a Bishop of Condom.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Somebody has to say it. So there was once a Bishop of Condom.
Indeed, and one of them was of the ancient ecclesiastical family of Montmorency-Laval who gave Canada its first bishop, Saint François of Québec.
It is on one of the major French pilgrimage routes to Santiago and I fear that I have seen more than one pilgrim flaunt their credencial with the stage-authentificating stamps from the cathedral, or the Mairie de Condom, or even the Musée de Condom. Enoch is not alone in enjoying this.
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
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Ah, the Ville de Condom, which has chronic problems with English-speakers stealing its town signs.
This appeared in a newspaper interest article some time ago.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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Ripon maintains its chapter and choir and daily services, even though it only has a third of a claim in a bishop. It acts like a full C of E cathedral.
Is there any difference between French former cathedrals and their parish churches?
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Ripon maintains its chapter and choir and daily services, even though it only has a third of a claim in a bishop. It acts like a full C of E cathedral.
Is there any difference between French former cathedrals and their parish churches?
Yebbut. Ripon was a proper cathedral with a bishop until less than two years ago and thinks it ought to be still.
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Reflecting on the 'floating Fenland' entity, in earlier years (19th cent?) the Seaman's Church Institute supported (floated?) one or more smallish ships outfitted as chapels in New York harbor. These were designed to minister to seamen on the various ships in the harbor and docks. How long these operated or how successful they were, I know not.
tangent off a tangent, HMS Invincible was my first ship in the RN and that had a proper chapel (dedicated to Our Lady of Furness as it had been built in Barrow) run by 2 CofE chaplains and an RC one.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Ripon maintains its chapter and choir and daily services, even though it only has a third of a claim in a bishop. It acts like a full C of E cathedral.
Is there any difference between French former cathedrals and their parish churches?
I'm not sure if French cathedrals are also parishes... they do retain their chapters. In Nantes, the cathedral is part of a group of city-centre churches with a united pastoral team, so traditional structures may have done some morphing for pastoral reasons.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
No - the plural is, rather oddly, dioceses (pronounced "dio-seizes").
If you don't believe me, try the Oxford Dictionary.
Thank you, and again I thank you. I had thought this battle had been lost, but only in Episcopal circles here in the USA. Our RC friends seem to have no problem with it. DYE-oh-seize is singular (Episcopalians think it's both singular and plural, or they think the plural is DYE-uh-suss-ez, or they think the singular is DYE-uh-siss and the plural DYE-uh-seize).
So there's hope.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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I stand clarified
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
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In France cathedrals of dioceses which were suppressed in the early 1800s by various concordats are really parish churches. Once again parishes have often changed fairly recently covering wider areas than before.
The cathedral of St Vincent (de Saragosse) in St Malo is part of the archdiocese of Rennes.It is the only working church 'intra muros'( inside the walled city) but is part of a team of churches in other parts of St Malo,sharing clergy and structuring Mass times to suit,both clergy and laity.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In France cathedrals of dioceses which were suppressed in the early 1800s by various concordats are really parish churches. Once again parishes have often changed fairly recently covering wider areas than before.
The cathedral of St Vincent (de Saragosse) in St Malo is part of the archdiocese of Rennes.It is the only working church 'intra muros'( inside the walled city) but is part of a team of churches in other parts of St Malo,sharing clergy and structuring Mass times to suit,both clergy and laity.
Ditto in Tours, another city I know. Toulouse has a parish group (ensemble paroissiale) with the cathedral of S Stephen and three other churches-- no mention of a dean on the site, but there is a curé pastoral, five priests, and a deacon. Toulouse is united with two other dioceses, which retain their own cathedrals (Saint Bertrand de Comminges, also on the Camino to Santiago, and Rieux)-- the Toulouse Centre Deanery also has another two parishes, and a student parish. I could check on a few other cathedral sites but I would guess that the idea of a non-parochial cathedral no longer exists in France.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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Oblates, I think I can unequivocally say that the normal pronunciation in England is singular, dye-uh-siss, plural dye-uh-seize. I have heard dye-uh-seizes as a plural. I don't think I've ever heard dye-uh-seize as a singular.
I was so puzzled by the argument about 'erroneous' pronunciations that I checked Fowler, who says that until about 1800, the singular was spelt diocess.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In France cathedrals of dioceses which were suppressed in the early 1800s by various concordats are really parish churches. Once again parishes have often changed fairly recently covering wider areas than before.
The cathedral of St Vincent (de Saragosse) in St Malo is part of the archdiocese of Rennes.It is the only working church 'intra muros'( inside the walled city) but is part of a team of churches in other parts of St Malo,sharing clergy and structuring Mass times to suit,both clergy and laity.
Ditto in Tours, another city I know.
I can't be sure of these facts, but as far as I know Tours has a bishop (or even archbishop). But the cathedral is in a group with several other city parishes and there is a very sparse service schedule: one mass on a Sunday and maybe one during the week, or something like that. I got the impression that one (rather elderly. if he is the one I saw awaiting a wedding party) priest is responsible for the whole lot. The French church is in a bad way: a friend of mine lives in a village in Burgundy where there is a mass in the parish church once every three months if they are lucky.
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
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Looking at the website for Catholic worship in central Tours there are five Masses in three separate churches
St Pierre de Ville 18.30 Sat. and 10 on Sunday
(The 10.a.m Mass is described as 'rite Jean XXIII')
Cathedral is 11.00 and 18.30
Sacre-Coeur is at 10 a.m.
There is also a daily Mass at 19.00 in the chapelle St Michel.
Of course there are a good number of other churches in Tours,including the Basilique St Martin which has Mass every day at 11.a.m.
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