Ship of Fools: RIP Toby

Thread: RIP Toby Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

My beloved dog of 17 years had to be put to sleep a couple of days ago and naturally I am very distressed. Eventually we will receive his ashes which I want to place in the garden where he played. My grandchildren want us to hold a funeral service and I'm not sure what form this should take. Can we say over Toby 'In sure and certain hope of the resurrection' etc or is that only for humans? What have other people done? Is there a correct format for a pet dog's funeral service? I had been going to do something quietly on my own, but my grandchildren want a 'real service' as they expressed it.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Dorothy Sayers wrote a wonderful poem about Timothy, her cat. Essentially it explains (in meter and rhyme!) why she is certain her cat will be in Paradise with her.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Hooray for the grandchildren, say I!

I would make it as much like a human funeral as you want. Definitely "in sure and certain hope" - because if our pets aren't going to be there, I don't think I want to be there either.

My daughter's cat has just died and I know how upset she is. And rightly so - her cat was a wonderful creature and we know she had an amazing lifestory, if only she could have written it down (on the streets twice in her early life, facing being put down as vicious and unmanageable, and then being rescued by my daughter, who loved her to bits and was loved in return by a cat who had never known love before). The thought that she may not be there in heaven is not one I wish to consider. What DOES give me hope and joy is that she will be there with another special cat, who died long before she was born. I don't think anything would give me greater joy than to have the two of them wandering around my feet, tripping me up.

(Excuse me now, while I go off and have a little weep.)

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I don't know that you can make it a Christian funeral though. What you can do is to give thanks for the comfort and enjoyment that Toby brought into your lives.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

Won't animals that shared our mortal lives share our resurrected lives also?

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Won't animals that shared our mortal lives share our resurrected lives also?

Unless I'm totally hallucinating I think C. S. Lewis said something along those lines in ??The Problem of Pain?? Can't remember for sure.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Won't animals that shared our mortal lives share our resurrected lives also?

Without being able to quote any authority, I'd say no. I don't know on what C S Lewis may have based what he may have said.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Won't animals that shared our mortal lives share our resurrected lives also?
Unless I'm totally hallucinating I think C. S. Lewis said something along those lines in ??The Problem of Pain?? Can't remember for sure.

No not the "Problem of Pain" but the "Great Divorce". The book is interesting in that it imaginatively puts forward a modernization on the nature of heaven and hell, but as a fictional narrative it is speculative, not definitive and I doubt we can read even C.S. Lewis' view on animals post-resurrection from it let alone that of the Church.

Jengie

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

As an Eccles answer rather than Purg, I used these lightly adapted CofE prayers on the towpath as we sent our beloved dog Hazel's ashes off in a candle-lit paper boat down the river where she used to run. Heresy carefully avoided, I think.

quote:

God of mercy,
as we mourn Hazel's death and commend her to your care,
we thank you for her life and all that she meant to each of us,
For the 14 years she shared with us,
the good we saw in her,
the love we received from her.
[... shared memories ... ]
Now give us strength and courage
to commit her to your care.
We make our prayer
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.

O God, who brought us all to birth,
and in whose arms we all die,
in our grief and shock
contain and comfort us;
embrace us with your love,
give us hope in our confusion
and grace to let go into new life;
through Jesus Christ.
Amen.

Q.
(Welling up again even after 10 years)

Posted by Full Circle (# 15398) on :

The Anglican Society for the Welfare of Animals has a downloadable booklet of prayers and readings in their loss of an animal pages: www.aswa.org.uk/page/loss_of_an_animal/
They list other helpful paper resources too.
I think it a great resource for starting to think about all animals through a theological lens
I hope it is helpful

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I don't know that you can make it a Christian funeral though.

Sure, go ahead and tell kids that the dog they loved isn't worthy of Christian burial. Might as well put them off Christianity as early as possible, get it over with.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I rather think we WILL have them back again in the resurrection, though the way in which that might happen is not clear now. But a lot of the images we have for the Messianic kingdom involve animals, and the "new creation" must surely involve the recreation/renewal/resurrection of a great deal of the present creation, surely?

I see no reason to suppose that the new heavens and new earth will be poorer in living things than the present set.

As a result, my family does bury our pets with prayer and thanksgiving, and when it comes to Scripture, we just draw on passages about the renewal of creation in Christ as opposed to the specifically human/sinner oriented bits. And of course the bit about the fall of a sparrow, etc.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I think we are left with memories.

During a dog's life, we are his/her everything. The centre of their world. The blessing is to have had the experience of being there for their entire life. You can't go back again. I see dogs that looked like mine, and think wistfully. Then I go home to the dog and cat who are still with us (down to one of each just now).

Posted by Ye Olde Motherboarde (# 54) on :

Dear Bib,

Living out in the country, it is the circle of life. watching our animals get ill, then die is heart wrenching. However, I believe our horses, chickens and dogs, which have made our lives so happy and full of love are going to be waiting for me when I go to heaven. Its the only thing that gets me through the day, but I still cry at the moments notice.

My sympathies on your loss,

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I don't know that you can make it a Christian funeral though.

If you're a Christian, then it IS a "Christian funeral", I would have thought.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
As an Eccles answer rather than Purg, I used these lightly adapted CofE prayers on the towpath as we sent our beloved dog Hazel's ashes off in a candle-lit paper boat down the river where she used to run. Heresy carefully avoided, I think.

quote:

God of mercy,
as we mourn Hazel's death and commend her to your care,
we thank you for her life and all that she meant to each of us,
For the 14 years she shared with us,
the good we saw in her,
the love we received from her.
[... shared memories ... ]
Now give us strength and courage
to commit her to your care.
We make our prayer
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.

O God, who brought us all to birth,
and in whose arms we all die,
in our grief and shock
contain and comfort us;
embrace us with your love,
give us hope in our confusion
and grace to let go into new life;
through Jesus Christ.
Amen.
Q.
(Welling up again even after 10 years)

Damn you! Now you've got me started again.

That's brilliant - just brilliant!

Posted by JH (# 17310) on :

As Martin Luther once said:

"Be thou comforted, little dog, Thou too in Resurrection shall have a little golden tail"

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Thank you fiends for your compassion on the death of our beloved Toby. The vet rang yesterday to say that Toby's ashes are ready and we have now brought him home. I'm feeling that we might have a modified service of Christian burial, with the grandchildren free to add whatever they wish. After all, Toby when he died was older than any of them and they had known him all their lives.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Eek, I meant to write friends not fiends. How embarrassing!

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

How awesome. [Overused]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I don't know that you can make it a Christian funeral though.
Sure, go ahead and tell kids that the dog they loved isn't worthy of Christian burial. Might as well put them off Christianity as early as possible, get it over with.

And if it be the case that a dog has no soul why should they not learn that in a gentle way now?

The sort of prayer Qoheleth. sets out is exactly what can be done without venturing into possible heresy - thanks for the dog's life and seeking comfort for those who remain.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

There is a children's book called The Tenth Good Thing About Barney which (I think) may be by Judith Viorst. Barney, the narrator's dog has died and one of his parents suggests he thinks up ten good things to say about Barney at his burial.

I like that idea and maybe it would lead to less emphasis about where the dog is going.

I vaguely remember reading a book by an English Rabbi where he said he thought animals go to Heaven, but it was so long ago I can't remember who it was. I remember thinking that might even be a good enough reason to convert.

Huia

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

If they live in our memories, will they not live in our resurrected memories (if we have any?)

Posted by leftfieldlover (# 13467) on :

When our 18-year old cat China had to be put down a few years ago, my younger son and I sat outside with him the night before, and drank champagne and celebrated his life. When elder son was next home (he was China's favourite human) he went into the garden, alone, and sprinkled China's ashes in the area which he particularly enjoyed sleeping in near to the catnip bush. Several weeks later we received a 'sympathy' card from the Vet.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Qoheleth's adapted prayers are wonderful. I would also add verses 5-9 of Psalm 36 which I used the last time I officiated at one of these (my own cat, E. much mourned and missed).

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

How do we know that we are the only beings on this planet with souls?

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
How do we know that we are the only beings on this planet with souls?

What exactly IS a soul? And more importantly, do you have to have one to be in heaven?

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

I don't think I would want a hereafter without all the pets I have known, starting with a certain spaiel who guarded my pram in North Wales and ending with a Bichon 2 decades ago. Our animal frienmds exude the purest form of love, that Bichon we had used to sit at the top of the stairs waiting for me to come up for breakfast.
As for CS Lewis just look at all the animals in the Narnia series that are at the resurrection after the Last Battle. Further up & higher in .
Bib tell the grandchildren that what they feel for the passed pet is good and right. And give them a BIG hug. [Smile]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
PaulBC: I don't think I would want a hereafter without all the pets I have known

Just make sure you clean up after them [Smile]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

If pets do end up in the resurrection with resurrection bodies, won't they also be housetrained?

I'm not as convinced about this as everyone else seems to be, and I'm also not convinced it matters that much. However, if pets were to have eternal life, wouldn't it be so that they could enjoy it, not so that they could be there so as to make us happy?

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

First of all your imaginations are too small. There is a radical break between this creation and the next creation. However it is a continuation and I do not think it will be less rich and it is the transformation of the whole of creation not just humans.

I am sorry but it is not just pets and I suspect that the way we will "see" all animals will be richer as well. I happen to believe we are with respect to this creation have time limits, the next must, therefore, have more dimensions.

Jengie

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

I've been holding back a bit from this thread for fear of offending anyone, but I think Jengie jon makes a good point. We can't conceptualise what Heaven will be like. We can't begin to know in any meaningful way what it would be like to be in the presence of the Godhead. An analogy I have heard used is that of a caterpillar trying to imagine what it must be like to be a butterfly.

I'm an animal lover, and it is clear that all animals are part of redeemed Creation, but I think that wondering whether I will get my lovely and late-lamented cat back is kind of missing the point. Like the Sadducees who asked our Lord to whom the woman with seven husbands would be wed in the Resurrection, the only answer that really makes sense is, effectively, 'don't worry about that, your Father has it sorted'.

So another vote here for providing a time of reflection and thanksgiving.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I don't know any Biblical basis for asserting "animals don't go to heaven." The Bible tells us what we need to know for us, and we have plenty of trouble with that, no wonder it doesn't venture off into discussing life on other planets or the eternal fate of animals.

But the rainbow promise was addressed to the animals too, not just to us, everything that breathes is invited to praise God, we see beasts in some visions, why those beasts and not also ours?

I probably wouldn't declare "promise of resurrection" - we aren't specifically told either way (even though I assume some variation of that), but I boldly would declare "held in God's love."

If the whole world will be renewed, or a new heaven and earth, why would the new one be barren of animals when the old one flourished with animals first, before humans were invented?

I've often wondered, if we are the bride, who are the wedding guests? Maybe the animals? [Smile]

Do the funeral. Rituals help the living, the dead are already with God.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

The lion has bugger-all to lie down with if the lamb ain't there, and vice versa.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

I thought Genesis told us that the lamb shall lie down on Broadway?

Posted by Devils Advocate (# 16484) on :

As it says in The Book of Genesis, God created them and in my opinion, if he created them, then there must be room for them in heaven.I lost my very elderly Cairn Terrier Spike 18 months ago, and when the vet returned his ashes ( They also sent me a Sympathy Card) I took them back to Sheffield where he'd spent most of his life with me, and scattered them at the top of a hill where we used to walk together. There was a Thunderstorm brewing, and as I scattered his ashes there was a very loud clap of thunder! All I could say was, that knowing my late pets temperament, he had bitten God!

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