Thread: The Pope at Madison Square Garden Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
View here. You can advance to about 14:00 to skip the entrance via golf cart.
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
[hosting]

Er ... discuss [Biased]


[/hosting]

[ 26. September 2015, 06:43: Message edited by: Zappa ]
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
That was my hope. What do people think about the mass: liturgy, vestments, music, attention to detail, etc.?
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Who were the guys in black hoods texting behind the female singer ?
 
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :
 
Why are the Pope and at least one other priest/bishop near him in green chasubles, but the many priests sitting behind them in white chasubles?
 
Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :
 
Great to hear the Pontifical Mass starting off with a good Anglican hymn (OK, it is based on the prayer by Francis of Assisi)!
[Two face]
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
What a nasty shade of green.
And it clashes with everyone else's
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
I like it. So far, I have only had time to watch it selectively and I will be coming back to it to watch it more completely.
 
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Why are the Pope and at least one other priest/bishop near him in green chasubles, but the many priests sitting behind them in white chasubles?

It's ordinary time, hence the colour is green for the celebrants. The priests in white are not celebrating the Mass, but may be involved in the distribution of Communion.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Does HH take his own vestments with him when he goes a-visiting? That may explain the slight mismatch between his chasuble and the vestments of the deacon and (presumably) sub-deacon.

*tangent alert*

By far the best moment of his US trip so far (well, that I've come across, anyhoo) was him getting out of his car to bless a disabled laddie and his family. Nice one, Papa!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Pope Benedict XVI started taking his own vestments after an Australian World Youth Day appearance which saw him in ... sky blue accented with pale yellow [Eek!]
 
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :
 
Most visiting priests bring their own vestments. They fit, after all.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
The guys in the black hoods look to me like Armenian clerics, who may be Orthodox or Catholic
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
I was wondering about them -- the Pope gives them a liturgical embrace at the end of mass (1:42:52) and they appear to kiss his ring.

I was also wondering who the bishop in the gold crown was (15:20). I thought perhaps the Metropolitan of the Russian Catholic Church, but I don't know.
 
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :
 
If they kissed his ring they are Eastern Catholics in communion with the Holy See. Perhaps. If the embrace was at the end of the Mass rather than at the Peace, perhaps not.
 
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
I have an LP of Elvis at Madison Square Garden...
 
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :
 
All the outstretched arms made it look like a Nazi rally or a Benny Hinn miracle service.
 
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
I haven't liked watching the bodyguards shove people out of the way as the pope walked down the aisle; he's not a rock star.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
At communion, some of the eucharistic ministers had rather burly looking attendants with them in Franciscan garb -- look, for example, at 1:24:24. I wondered about them -- were they Secret Service in drag?

On the positive side, I thought the music was wonderful -- certainly a far cry from what you usually get at a Catholic mass. The Proulx Sanctus was a special treat, as was "Alleluia! Sing to Jesus" to Hyfrydol. And I liked the eucharistic prayer in Latin.
 
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :
 
I think that they could have done without a cantor.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
Well, at least the cantors at all the Papal masses over the past few days could actually sing. I've heard some in my time that desperately require a vocal fold transplant.

The cantor, or leader of song, has been deeply ingrained in Catholic worship ever since the days of Vatican II. I don't like it either.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Re security - I suppose they do have to take extra precautions, given the risk of someone taking a potshot at HH (remember the attempt to kill JP2?). Pope Francis seems to take it all in his stride......even if he did appear to need some help getting up the steps to the altar.

Re cantor - not, perhaps, the Bestest In All The World, but the music was (overall) Good, if not quite up to Anglican Cathedral standard.... [Razz]

......a perhaps regrettable fact of modern life, though, in the number of people waving their mobile phones on high to take a photo. This happens at Baptisms at Our Place, but although part of me wishes they'd concentrate on what's going on at the Font, another part realises that the photographers may well recall in the future how friendly and welcoming Our Place was..... [Two face]

Ian J.
 
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
Though not the same thing, one can compare and contrast the entrance of the Queen to a service of worship here in the UK.
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
I am wondering who the deacon, who read the gospel was and I am thinking it might be Revd. Jack Sullivan, who performed the same role in the same capacity at the Beatification Mass for John Henry Newman at Cofton Park, Birmingham by Pope Benedict XVI on his visit to England five years ago. Can any shipmate confirm that? If they are not one and the same deacon, then they look alike.

The choice of the said permanent deacon five years ago, was significant, because when Jack Sullivan's pre-diaconate formation was thwarted due to a spinal disorder, he prayed to John Henry Newman for a miraculous cure. The desired cure happened, enabling his ordination to go ahead. That was the miracle needed so that Newman's beatification could go ahead, as well.
 
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Why are the Pope and at least one other priest/bishop near him in green chasubles, but the many priests sitting behind them in white chasubles?

I'm guessing they didn't have enough matching green ones. The ones in white chasubles are definitely concelebrating (there is no other reason -- other than on Good Friday -- to wear a chasuble). Most big occasion Masses, where you need to have many matching outfits for concelebrants, are white, so it wouldn't surprise me if they had enough white chasubles, but not green ones.

I am accustomed to the principal celebrant wearing a different vestment than the concelebrants. I don't see that as "clashing" necessarily.

As for bringing one's own vestments: I'd very much doubt that that would be allowed at something like this. Albs (+ cinctures / amices), maybe, but not the 'external vestments' (chasuble, mitre, etc.). At our basilica, all concelebrants wear matching stoles and chasubles which we provide. We also provide albs for everyone, but there'd be no complaint if someone brought his own. Bringing your own vestments to concelebrate would be common in a circumstance like showing up to a regular parish church to concelebrate a friend's funeral, but not in an event like this.

I do know of 'event Masses' where they expect concelebrants, but don't have the resources to provide vesture for everyone. Invites for these normally say "bring alb and stole." Papal Masses do not fall into this category!

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops finger:
...the vestments of the deacon and (presumably) sub-deacon.

There's no such thing as a sub-deacon (in the OF of the Roman Rite). At big Masses, with many deacons available, I'm used to the deacon part being divided between at least two: a deacon of the Word and deacon of the Eucharist. At the chrism Mass in our diocese, they'll divide things between as many transitional deacons as there are. There were three of us my year, so I was deacon of the Cup, and there was a deacon of the Word and the deacon of the incense.

Here's a review from a priest who has there. And here's the worship aid.

A few things I wondered about. Given the presence of so many deacons, it's technically irregular to have lay people announce the petitions for the prayers of the faithful. Of course, the Pope has the right to waive that, but it does make it an interesting choice to 'show-case' diversity (linguistic as well) at that moment of the Mass.

The opening hymn is a classic. You need a lot of verses to get Pope + entourage in, and the Franciscan text is obviously appropriate. I wonder why some verses were in European Spanish, rather than an American dialect of Spanish.

The choice of propers (including readings) was one of the Masses for Peace and Justice, rather than the Mass of the Day. These are the readings he passed up. This certainly fits the motive of the Pope's pastoral visit.

The recognition of those who constructed the chair, altar and linens is a very nice touch. They truly seem to reflect the unfussy noble simplicity that Francis cares about, and the concern about the people who constructed them is important.
 
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Though not the same thing, one can compare and contrast the entrance of the Queen to a service of worship here in the UK.

Do you mean when all the little boys shout "Vivat! Vivat!"?
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
But surely the Queen in the UK and the pope,wherever he is, have quite different roles.
Not that one is better or worse than the other.
 
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I am wondering who the deacon, who read the gospel was and I am thinking it might be Revd. Jack Sullivan, who performed the same role in the same capacity at the Beatification Mass for John Henry Newman at Cofton Park, Birmingham by Pope Benedict XVI on his visit to England five years ago.

I don't think so. The worship aid lists the following deacons:

Deacon James Bello, Archdiocese of New York
Deacon Joachin Pereira, Archdiocese of New York
Deacon James Murphy, Diocese of Rockville Centre
Deacon Jaime Varela, Diocese of Brooklyn

I couldn't find anywhere that identified who did what.
 
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Though not the same thing, one can compare and contrast the entrance of the Queen to a service of worship here in the UK.

Do you mean when all the little boys shout "Vivat! Vivat!"?
Erm... you mean
This? Watch from 4.05

Hardly the same as a crowd of people struggling to grab the Pope as he processes by.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Here's a review from a priest who has there.

Sign him up to be a Mystery Worshipper. [Axe murder]
 
Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :
 
I wat6ched a fair bit of the Papal visit and I'm im[ressed The Pope was nt a remote fiquire but
a man like the restof us>He's more alike John XXIII than JPII or Benedict XVI.
And his message was get into the places where people need to hear the Gospel, applicable to both RC & Anglicans , not to mention everyone else. Also don't be dogmatic abou being the only way to God.
[Smile] [Votive] [Angel]
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
I thought it was a beautiful mass, but was puzzled by the sanctus bells. They sounded like a doorbell. I especially enjoyed the use of Latin for the Eucharistic prayer.

BTW the person who read the lesson from Isaiah in Spanish was Mo Rocca, a minor TV personality.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
BTW the person who read the lesson from Isaiah in Spanish was Mo Rocca, a minor TV personality.

He's a regular panelist on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" on National Public Radio as well.
 
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
But surely the Queen in the UK and the pope,wherever he is, have quite different roles.
Not that one is better or worse than the other.

I thought I heard the Holy Father being introduced to the US Congress as "The Pope of the Holy See". I took this to signify that he was there in his capacity as a Head of State and not as Bishop of Rome.

Of course I agree that at a church service their roles are different; and I began to wonder whether there were occasions when the Queen's presence was (as it were) liturgically necessary. All I could think of were (a) the Coronation Service, where there's an almost Byzantine fusion of the lay and clerical; (b) the annual presentation of Gold Frankincense and Myrrh at the Epiphany --- but this is done by proxy nowadays, so I don't know if that counts; (c) the annual Maundy service --- but I'm not sure whether the Royal Almoner doesn't actually do the donkey work.

In both (a) and (c) there is in practice hysterical adulation as she arrives, and in (a) it is also built into the service.
 
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:

In both (a) and (c) there is in practice hysterical adulation as she arrives, and in (a) it is also built into the service.

Where exactly was/is this 'hysterical' adulation?
 
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :
 
If we want to move the conversation on to Philly, here's some commentary and the worship aid.

To pick up on an earlier point, having seen facebook photos by some priest friends who were concelebrating, it seems that 'rank and file' priests were told to bring their own alb and white stole, while the invited concelebrants were given matching green vestments. Given that every priest will have his own green stole, I wonder if this is a conscious decision to make the 'background' priests less eye-catching by having them in all white.
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I am wondering who the deacon, who read the gospel was and I am thinking it might be Revd. Jack Sullivan, who performed the same role in the same capacity at the Beatification Mass for John Henry Newman at Cofton Park, Birmingham by Pope Benedict XVI on his visit to England five years ago.

I don't think so. The worship aid lists the following deacons:

Deacon James Bello, Archdiocese of New York
Deacon Joachin Pereira, Archdiocese of New York
Deacon James Murphy, Diocese of Rockville Centre
Deacon Jaime Varela, Diocese of Brooklyn

I couldn't find anywhere that identified who did what.

Thanks; I stand to be corrected. A cast list was something that eluded me.
 
Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
The one negative for me was the sight of bully boys in shirt sleeves throwing their weight around. I know security is necessary, but these guys looked like bouncers such as one might see outside a night club. The very pleasing aspect for me was the very perceptive and yet unobtrusive priest who stood and the Pope's side and assisted him very gently with an arm or a word as required. Also, I actually quite liked the lady leading the singing as she gave a very good lead to the assembled masses, which would not be an easy task. Altogether it was a worthwhile celebration, although I couldn't uderstand much of what wasn't in English (that's when we need subtitles).
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I'm reminded of the Parish Mass I attended many years ago in a small seaside town in Croatia (part of Jugoslavia then).

The church was well-filled with locals and visitors, but the altar party consisted of just the priest and one server.....plus a dozen rather scary black-suited men in dark glasses (!) ranged around the apse.... [Ultra confused]

This was post-Tito and just pre-civil war, so I can only assume that they were secret police (or something) working a bit of overtime......

IIRC, they didn't exchange the Peace with anyone...

Ian J.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
The very pleasing aspect for me was the very perceptive and yet unobtrusive priest who stood and the Pope's side and assisted him very gently with an arm or a word as required.

That would be the Revd Msgr Guido Marini, master of apostolic ceremonies, who has to have the best job in the world! [Overused]
 
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:

In both (a) and (c) there is in practice hysterical adulation as she arrives, and in (a) it is also built into the service.

Where exactly was/is this 'hysterical' adulation?
Westminster Abbey?
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Ummm

American Piskie -- I think you are confusing what happens once in a King/Queen's life, at his/her coronation, with something that happens at any other time in any other circumstance.

In the days before reform, a papal coronation included a hooded monastic appearing before the Pope's carrying chair with a length of burning rope -- possibly saying something but in any case signifying that worldly splendour is as dust and ashes. The popes of the day would not have expected to meet cowled monastics with burning ropes at any other time.

John
 
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
In the days before reform, a papal coronation included a hooded monastic appearing before the Pope's carrying chair with a length of burning rope -- possibly saying something but in any case signifying that worldly splendour is as dust and ashes. The popes of the day would not have expected to meet cowled monastics with burning ropes at any other time.

The phrase uttered with the burning was "Sic transit Gloria mundi," which means "Thus passes the glory of the world."
 
Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :
 
I quite like Pope Francis. Certainly he's an improvement on his two immediate predecessors. But speeches at these big gatherings are liable to be a bit platitudinous. The Labour Party's Conference in Brighton is similar: all in favour of good, kindness, compassion, etc. And not even Benedict XVI or JP2 would have had the nerve to get up at a public rally in the UK or USA and attack gays, contraception, women's rights, divorce, or, for that matter Protestantism
 
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Ummm

American Piskie -- I think you are confusing what happens once in a King/Queen's life, at his/her coronation, with something that happens at any other time in any other circumstance.

[del]

John

In a confused (and not clearly thought out) way I was trying to point out that the Queen, no less than the Pope, is given the rock-star treatment when she appears, even if she's going to church: we are usually treated by the BBC to a view of the annual over-excited crowds at Crathie, Sandringham, Windsor. It is just not fair to criticise the reception of the Pope with an implied "how unlike the home life of our own dear Queen." Even more confusingly I was trying to say that in the Queen's case it is even worse, since at the coronation the adulation is built into the service, with the cries of "vivat!" Unlike the papal coronation there is no balancing "sic transit.." moment. (Or moments: wasn't it done three times? I seem to remember that happening in 1963.)
 
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
Your memory serves you well, American Piskie. The sic transit was indeed said three times at the papal coronation.

I find it odd here, to read how some, when speaking of papal "styles" (for lack of a better term), speak of Pope Francis and St. John XXIII as being a certain way, and St. John Paul II and Pope Emeritus Benedict as being a different way. Francis, John and John Paul were all cut from the same extroverted cloth. Benedict, on the other hand, is an introvert. The first three loved crowds and were loved back by them. John Paul invented the concept of the papal trip, which is now the norm. Having a very long pontificate, he visited nearly every country on earth. He joked from the first moment that he appeared on the balcony of St. Peter's, mentioning that Italian was not his native language. JP2 created World Youth Day, and was the first "rock star pope." John, JP2 and Francis all spoke off the cuff remarks whenever they could. Benedict, OTOH, rarely did. This notion of Francis being so different from Benedict AND John Paul is difficult to stomach.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
I'm wondering whether the person who asked about the unobtrusive priest who accompanied Pope Francis on his trip to the USA was not asking about Mgr Guido Marini,tall rather than small, and the papal Master of Ceremonies.

Mgr Marini was the Master of Papal Ceremonies for Benedict XVI. He was /is a person who values the traditions of papal ceremonies.It was assumed that Francis,who seeks always a simpler form of ceremonies would dispense with his services.
Francis kept him on, hoping to introduce him to this much simpler form of papal ceremonies.

I think,however, that bib was perhaps asking about the small, rather than tall, unobtrusive priest who was always beside the pope,translating ,where needed,from Spanish into English. He was Mgr Mark Miles,born in Gibraltar,and as such fluent in both (Castilian)Spanish and (British) English.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Far more interesting to me, than all this tattery, is the fact that he chose, as his presidential chair, some woodwork made by prisoners and that he visited the prison afterwards.
 
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:

In both (a) and (c) there is in practice hysterical adulation as she arrives, and in (a) it is also built into the service.

Where exactly was/is this 'hysterical' adulation?
Westminster Abbey?
The words 'Vivat Regina Elizabetha' are chanted by teenaged boys, or just the boys of the choir, and are part of Parry's 'I Was Glad' - one of the most glorious pieces of music written for the English church.

I would hardly call it adulation and I would certainly not call it hysterical.

What you do not get, as the Queen processes down the aisle on Westminster Abbey, St Paul's Cathedral or indeed Crathie Church, is hordes of people hanging over the edge of the pews with their phones, or trying to grab her designer frock!
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Mudfrog --

A friend of mine was one of the boys in the Abbey choir just after the coronation, and he assured me that the Vivats were indeed shouted by (some of) the boys of Westminster School, to whom that role belongs. I suppose they must have been coached as to when and how to shout, and perhaps they did so in a way that worked with the music.

John
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
My dad was one of the boys shouting vivat at the coronation - and yes it is rehearsed.
 
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Mudfrog --

A friend of mine was one of the boys in the Abbey choir just after the coronation, and he assured me that the Vivats were indeed shouted by (some of) the boys of Westminster School, to whom that role belongs. I suppose they must have been coached as to when and how to shout, and perhaps they did so in a way that worked with the music.

John

Yes I know they did. Who is saying they didn't? They also did it at the 60th Anniversary service.

What I am saying is that it wasn't hysterical adulation.
 
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:


What I am saying is that it wasn't hysterical adulation. [/QB]

Well, I think it was the liturgical expression of adulation, and I think that Parry captures the hysteria marvellously in the way he incorporates the traditional high-pitched schoolboy "vivat"s into his anthem.

(Do I have to add a Corbynesque "I love my country"?)
 
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:


What I am saying is that it wasn't hysterical adulation.

Well, I think it was the liturgical expression of adulation, and I think that Parry captures the hysteria marvellously in the way he incorporates the traditional high-pitched schoolboy "vivat"s into his anthem.

(Do I have to add a Corbynesque "I love my country"?) [/QB]

I'm sorry to be a pedant on this (I am English after all [Biased] ) but:


quote:
ad·u·la·tion (ăj′ə-lā′shən)
n.
Excessive flattery or admiration.
[Middle English adulacioun, from Old French, from Latin adūlātiō, adūlātiōn-, from adūlātus, past participle of adūlārī, to flatter.]
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
adulation (ˌædjʊˈleɪʃən)
n
1. obsequious flattery or praise; extreme admiration
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

and

quote:
hysterical
hɪˈstɛrɪk(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
affected by or deriving from wildly uncontrolled emotion.
"Janet became hysterical and began screaming"
synonyms: overwrought, emotional, uncontrolled, uncontrollable, out of control, unrestrained, unrestrainable, frenzied, in a frenzy, frantic, wild, feverish; More

The 'Vivat Regina Elizabetha' is neither adulation (hysterical or otherwise), it is actually an 'acclamation':

quote:
acclamation
[ak-luh-mey-shuh n]
Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
a loud shout or other demonstration of welcome, goodwill, or approval.
2.
act of acclaiming.
3.
Liturgy. a brief responsive chant in antiphonal singing.
4.
Ecclesiastical, response (def 3a).


 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Crowds behaving in 'rock-star' fashion when the Queen attends church from Sandringham or Balmoral is a new one on me, american piskie ...

Yes, you'll get waving crowds but as Mudfrog rightly says, hardly 'hysterical adulation' ...

[Disappointed]

I recognise hysterical adulation when I see it and I don't see it when the Queen goes to a church service. Sure, there are people who idolise the monarchy but the most you'll get is some enthusiastic flag-waving - which isn't quite the same thing as 'hysterical adulation'.

Mudfrog and I both live on this scept'red isle. We know these things ...

[Razz] [Razz]
 
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :
 
Oh dear, my own youthful experience of being in the crowd as Her Majesty passed by was that I was part of a crowd indulging feverishly in obsequious praise. But there we go: nowadays when I see it on the telly I comfort myself reflecting on the Scottish minister's prayer at Crathie for Queen Victoria, "May she go before her people as a he-goat upon the mountains!"

(My religious affiliation does not match my residence.)
 
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 
Back to the Mass at Madison Square Gardens ... it all looked rather splendid to me. But a question, not specifically about this service, but related to it. I think that of the three hymns, one was based on the words of St Francis, one was written by a Lutheran and one by an Anglican (please correct me if I'm wrong). Is there a set of 'acceptable' hymns in the Catholic church, or are those who are responsible for such things allowed wide latitude in choice of hymn, even if the Pope is visiting? Just curious.
 
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :
 
The General Instruction on the Roman Missal assumes that either each bishop or each bishop's conference will approve hymns for their diocese or conference (the use of hymns always technically being second choice to chanting the texts provided in the Missal). This has never been done in the US. We have a variety of publishers here, all of whom will seek an imprimatur ("let it be printed") from their local publisher before publishing a hymnal. So, Archbishop Cupich controls what GIA can publish; Archbishop Sample, the repertoire of OCP; etc. Here at Notre Dame, we have our own hymnal, and the local bishop approved it (actually, he delegates that to one of our faculty here, who is priest of the diocese, which may have facilitated the process!).

In every diocese I've been in in the US, the understanding has been that so long as some bishop somewhere has approved it, it can be used there.

Many hymns of non-Catholic origin are popular. One Methodist friend remarked to me mournfully that Catholics are more likely to sing Wesley hymns than they are!
 
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :
 
Sorry, my description of the imprimatur process swapped the word 'publisher' for 'bishop' at one point, rather obscuring the point. I meant:

quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
... We have a variety of publishers here, all of whom will seek an imprimatur ("let it be printed") from their local bishop before publishing a hymnal. ...


 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
(from memory) I would have liked to have seen a gospel procession rather than a nonchalant amble to an ambo ... [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :
 
See from about 29:30 till about 31:30 on the video Miss Amanda linked to. That's plenty of chalanting for my money!

What is a little odd is that the deacon got there before the cantor, who was also using the ambo, had finished the acclamation. The cantor either forgot to take her music with her or had been told not to, and a special server had to clear a space for the gospel book (I wonder if that server did anything else that whole Mass they had so many of them!).

This has me wondering if it's technically correct that the gospel verse should be proclaimed from the ambo. Everywhere I can think either has the gospeller do it from the ambo, or a cantor do it from a separate cantor stand. Maybe the Papal Mass is the 'right' way to do it, but it seems awfully awkward.
 
Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :
 
Because I genuinely do not know the answer:

How much say or sway do prelates have when they are making visitations, and does it matter if it's inside or outside the diocese or province, and is the Bishop of Rome a special case either because he is the Pope or because of the nature of a state visit or both?

Answers on a postcard please.
 
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
The rubrics do not specify the location from which the Alleluia or other gospel acclamation is to be sung, only that it is:

62. After the reading that immediately precedes the Gospel, the Alleluia or another chant laid down by the rubrics is sung, as the liturgical time requires. An acclamation of this kind constitutes a rite or act in itself, by which the gathering of the faithful welcomes and greets the Lord who is about to speak to them in the Gospel and profess their faith by means of the chant. It is sung by everybody, standing, and is led by the choir or a cantor, being repeated as the case requires. The verse, on the other hand, is sung either by the choir or by a cantor.

As an experienced MC, I would agree that if there is an actual gospel procession, with incense and lights, that the cantor should be elsewhere at that moment, so as not to be in the way.

[ 09. October 2015, 12:42: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Generally speaking a prelate will only have a say within his own diocese where he is the chief shepherd of the faithful.

An archbishop similarly within his own province,particularly if he is in a situation of sede vacante within his province and he is replacing the departed bishop.

Within the Catholic church the pope has 'universal jurisdiction'.Only he has the right to wear the pallium outside of his own province.
 


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