Ship of Fools: Decline of Episcopal Church and state of Anglican churchmanship

Thread: Decline of Episcopal Church and state of Anglican churchmanship Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on :

One area that has always interested me is the decline in the Episcopal Church [is it legally still the Protestant Episcopal Church]? I know there are many theories -- demographic, theological, etc. I'm sure there are many reasons, to be honest.

One of them is undeniably the fact that the demographics of the Episcopal Church are overwhelmingly white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestants (WASPs). The fact is America hasn't had significant WASP immigration in a hundred-ish years, which coincides with the period during which the Episcopal Church had its most power and influence in society and the country writ large since the colonial days when it was the established state church in much of the original 13 U.S. colonies.

I think this is significantly overlooked by everyone.

Regardless, another reason I've often pondered is the loss of the traditional Episcopal identity as the Protestant sect.

I don't even know if you can call the Episcopal Church a Protestant church anymore. The presiding bishop says he subscribes to Catholic theology.

I don't mean to turn this into a thread against Anglo-Catholicism, but there is no denying the fact that America was established fundamentally as a Protestant county. The Catholic trappings of most Episcopal churches these days would come as quite a surprise to 18th and early 19th century Episcopalians.

Does anything think this could have contributed to the Episcopal Church's decline? Clearly, there has been movement away from catholicky worship -- be it the Episcopal Church or the real Catholic church, Rome -- toward non-denominational, evangelical and pentecostal sects.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

On another subject, what does everyone think of the state of Anglican churchmanship? Based on my own observations, it seems like we are suffering from a lack of diversity in the spectrum.

Today, it seems a parish is either firmly Anglo-Catholic (or on the catholicky side of broad), decidedly low-church evangelical (a good example are the majority of Anglican Church in North America parishes) or somewhere in the mushy middle with no clear churchmanship.

What seems to be lost is genuine high church but not Anglo-Catholic churchmanship. I personally think one can be high on the proverbial candle of churchmanship without being Anglo-Catholic. But am I alone?

[ 18. September 2016, 11:37: Message edited by: Meet and Right So to Do ]

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
I don't even know if you can call the Episcopal Church a Protestant church anymore. The presiding bishop says he subscribes to Catholic theology.

I'm Anglo-Catholic and probably not the one to ask about this, but I see Anglicanism as protestant only in the narrow sense of not recognizing the Bishop of Rome as elevated over other bishops.

And it developed from a church that intended to remain Catholic in every respect except that. So the "real" protestants in the sense of going farther than that would be the Lutherans, right?

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
And it developed from a church that intended to remain Catholic in every respect except [non-recognition of extra territorial authority of the Bishop of Rome]. So the "real" protestants in the sense of going farther than that would be the Lutherans, right?

…and took a different view about the nature of the mass, the manner of Christ's presence in the Eucharist, the existence (or otherwise) of purgatory, and the potential salvific importance of good works - to name a few.

When Bp Stephen Gardiner (IIRC) wrote a commentary to show how Cranmer's first prayer book was still consistent with Roman Catholic theology, Cranmer revised it in a way designed to exclude such readings.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

My impression is the the US Episcopalians are by and large more Catholicky in feel than the CofE and Anglicans elsewhere, but also more liberal theologically. So they combine somewhat catholic trappings with liberal theology and political outlook.

It's not that you don't find that in the CofE or the Episcopalians in Scotland, you do - but the US Episcopalians we tend to hear about over here come from that end of the spectrum.

I've only met one ACNA ordinand and he seemed quite 'high' in a traditional Anglican type way without being 'spikey' or Anglo-Papalist or Anglo-Catholic in the stereotypical sense.

I think traditional 'High church' Anglicans in the non-nosebleed high ritualistic sense do exist, but they are increasingly uncommon on both sides of the Atlantic.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Meet and Right So to Do

The Church Growth Modelling blog, which is run by a British researcher, asserts that the CofE enjoys a number of advantages above the Church in Wales, the Scottish Episcopal Church and the Episcopal Church of the USA. One (b) is that the CofE is far less uniform.

From what you've said above, ECUSA is more uniformly Anglo-Catholic than the CofE. There are obviously benefits to this, namely that visitors are more likely to know what they're getting, but the downside is that there's far less room in the American church for members who might have other other inclinations.

The author makes the interesting comment that as the state church, the CofE is freer to develop in different ways without losing its status or predominance. So, for example, parts of the CofE seem able to absorb various whacky charismatic/Pentecostal beliefs and practices without the denomination becoming less 'English', and without losing its established position. Indeed, it attracts charismatic evangelicals Christians from other traditions precisely because they can get the theology and style of worship they want yet also benefit from the status and resources of the CofE.

By contrast, I've read elsewhere that the very dominance of (evangelical) Protestantism in American popular Christianity has led to ECUSA seeking to distinguish itself from the rest. It's USP, if you like, is not in being the established church (which it isn't), but in not being as culturally Protestant as the other groups. Unfortunately, the American demand for a more 'Catholic' churchmanship doesn't appear to be particularly high outside the RCC (and perhaps the Orthodox, if they're included).

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I think there's a lot in that, SvitlanaV2 except that in my experience charismatic evangelicals from non-Anglican backgrounds who gravitate towards the CofE don't do so for reasons of status or resource.

Rather, if charismatic evangelicals from non-Anglican backgrounds attend a charismatic Anglican church it's generally because there isn't a viable alternative charismatic church in the area or because they have had their fingers burnt out in independent charismatic evangelicalism and feel the CofE version will be more balanced or more stable.

More broadly, other than the liberal-catholic elements within Anglicanism, it does seem that the high-water mark of the more 'Catholic' wing of Anglicanism lies in the past.

Some Shippies may dispute that but fora whole range of reasons I think traditional Anglo-Catholicism is on the wane.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

I find it arguable to say the least that Anglicans were ever considered 'the' protestant church. ISTM that title is shared equally between the Methodists and the Presbyterians. And this is leaving aside the myriad historical distinctions between churches in Canada and churches in the United States.

In neither country have Anglicans ever been anywhere close to a majority since at least 1720. The Episcopal Church in the US has always been a minority; there is a strong argument that their Low Church wing mostly branched off into the Methodists after 1787.

No, the default Protestant liturgical expression is the Hymn Sandwich, which leads to the Presbyterians, the Methodists and possibly the Baptists.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

More broadly, other than the liberal-catholic elements within Anglicanism, it does seem that the high-water mark of the more 'Catholic' wing of Anglicanism lies in the past.

Some Shippies may dispute that but fora whole range of reasons I think traditional Anglo-Catholicism is on the wane.

Well 'traditional Anglo-catholicism' can mean a lot of things. If you mean the Anglican equivalent of the Society of St Pius X or the Latin Mass Society, of course it is on the wane as similar dated attitudes are in the RCC and everywhere. Hardline teaching both on the ordination of women and the acceptability of same-sex relationships is crumbling fast. But there are exceptions of course, and some of the fastest-growing churches are (at least liturgically) distinctly old-fashioned; Forward in Faith is not dead and many churches combine strongly anti-OoW views with modern liturgy, a progressive approach to evangelism, and working for social justice.

I think what is on the wane is tribalism: churches locked into their Anglo-catholic (or whatever) ghettoes and not engaging with fellow-Anglicans. Many FinF supporting priests are happy to work with female colleagues in deanery and diocesan projects; lay people have a wider appreciation of different ways of being Anglican; more priests are trained in non-residential courses alongside other traditions, rather than in the old-style 'party' colleges (which themselves are not as partisan as they were). The amalgamation of parishes has brought the different traditions into a closer working relationship.

It seems to me that on both major dead-horse issues, which used to distinguish 'traditional' from 'liberal' catholics, attitudes are softening. While Anglo-catholics have long been tolerant of gay relationships, many more are now coming to accept women as priests, so there are many parishes with a 'liberal' outlook in these respects which are otherwise unapologetically anglo-catholic rather than moderately middle of the road.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Yes, I was surprised to see the 'Piskies cited as THE Protestant sect in North America as the OP put it.

Perhaps in terms of social cachet ...

Although I wouldn't put 1720 as a pivotal date. The Presbyterians were around then as were the Independents but the Methodists emerged later in the century.

In the hymn sandwich thing, low-church Anglicanism is pretty much hymn-sandwichy these days with liturgy confined to the opening confession, the Creed and to the communion. I'd imagine it would be similar for what low-church Anglicans there might be in the US and Canada.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

You say that, Angloid, but that's not what I'm hearing from a FiF priest I know, nor from others involved on the Higher end of things - although I'd agree that things are loosening up from the old tribal divisions as numbers decline.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think there's a lot in that, SvitlanaV2 except that in my experience charismatic evangelicals from non-Anglican backgrounds who gravitate towards the CofE don't do so for reasons of status or resource.

Rather, if charismatic evangelicals from non-Anglican backgrounds attend a charismatic Anglican church it's generally because there isn't a viable alternative charismatic church in the area or because they have had their fingers burnt out in independent charismatic evangelicalism and feel the CofE version will be more balanced or more stable.

More broadly, other than the liberal-catholic elements within Anglicanism, it does seem that the high-water mark of the more 'Catholic' wing of Anglicanism lies in the past.

I do think the concepts of viability and resources overlap, though.

As for CofE c/Catholicism, in my urban experience the liberal-catholic category is the dominant type of CofE churchmanship, and that's the kind that's familiar to me.

There are two churches labelled 'Anglo-Catholic' within walking distance of my house, but they look scarily forbidding, and I wouldn't dream of darkening their doors! I know nothing about their congregations, except for one young guy whose parents attended one of them (but the last I heard he belonged to an independent evangelical church). I know of a couple more AC churches that appear to be a bit more engaged with the local community.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Regardless, another reason I've often pondered is the loss of the traditional Episcopal identity as the Protestant sect.

Was there ever a time when it was the Protestant sect in what is now the U.S.? I don't think there was. Even in the 5 colonies where the CofE was established, its actual adherents were often a minority, sometimes very much a minority, and it almost reached extinction in some places after the Revolution.

The influence of Episcopalians in government and business has always been out of proportion to their numbers in the general population, at least until recently. (The same could be said, to a lesser degree, of Presbyterians.) But I don't think that ever made the Episcopal Church the Protestant sect. I would suggest that any such "identity" was only in the minds of some Episcopalians.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In the hymn sandwich thing, low-church Anglicanism is pretty much hymn-sandwichy these days with liturgy confined to the opening confession, the Creed and to the communion. I'd imagine it would be similar for what low-church Anglicans there might be in the US and Canada.

I doubt it, at least in my part of the U.S. "Low church" here would mean no smells and bells (and in one church I know of, perhaps less kneeling), but the liturgy would be straight out of the prayer book, with choir processing behind a crucifer, etc.

But if we're talking about what Anglican worship might have looked like here in the 18th Century, that might be a different question.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I was surprised to see the 'Piskies cited as THE Protestant sect in North America as the OP put it.

Perhaps in terms of social cachet ...

Although I wouldn't put 1720 as a pivotal date. The Presbyterians were around then as were the Independents but the Methodists emerged later in the century.

In the hymn sandwich thing, low-church Anglicanism is pretty much hymn-sandwichy these days with liturgy confined to the opening confession, the Creed and to the communion. I'd imagine it would be similar for what low-church Anglicans there might be in the US and Canada.

New England was Congregationalist, Pennsylvania was free, and everywhere south of Maryland had Presbyterian majorities amongst the Scots-Irish, most of whom later became Methodist or Baptist.

1720 is not a "key date", just a "last we can use these assumptions" date.

The only colony that I can guarantee ever had an Anglican majority was Virginia (Jamestown to 1700) and possibly South Carolina. And with the South too you have to count slaves, which changes the numbers dramatically.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

The Episcopal Church did definitely take a "catholicky" turn with the advent of the 1979 prayerbook. My parish seems fairly typical: the priest used to be called "Mr." and now it's "Father" or "Mother," there used to be Morning Prayer but of course now there is the eucharist every Sunday, and they splashed out a lot on vestments starting in the 1970s, something unheard of when it was high and dry.

I have a hard time attributing the decline in adherents to this change, however, given that all the mainline Protestant denominations have been suffering long-term decline. The United Church of Christ did not become more "catholicky," but in 1955 it had 2.1 million members and in 2015 it had a smidge over 900,000 (UCC stats (pdf)).

Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on :

I don't think one can argue that the Episcopal Church was the Protestant sect for the period up until the American War of Independence and then say from the 1870s or 1880s until the 1930s. It may have not been a majority, but it was certainly a strong plurality that dominated all things politics, business, media, and culture.

My original point remains. I wonder if one could argue the loss of a Protestant identity in the Episcopal Church and the dominance of liberal-catholicism (or however you want to call it) has contributed to the decline of the denomination when other Protestant-identifying sects were and are growing.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
I don't think one can argue that the Episcopal Church was the Protestant sect for the period up until the American War of Independence and then say from the 1870s or 1880s until the 1930s.

Are you talking about establishment prior to the Revolution? The CofE was only established in 5 of the 13 colonies, and in some of those (including the one I live in) its numbers and influence were fairly limited.

As for the 1870s–1930s, I still don't know where you're getting the idea that the a Episcopal Church was "the Protestant sect." I'm not even quite sure what you mean by that, frankly.

quote:
It may have not been a majority, but it was certainly a strong plurality that dominated all things politics, business, media, and culture.

No. It was a relatively small group whose members had influence and power out of proportion to their numbers. That's different from the claim you have made—to the extent it says anything about the Episcopal Church, it says something about the social class of people who belonged to it.

[ 19. September 2016, 01:26: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
I wonder if one could argue the loss of a Protestant identity in the Episcopal Church and the dominance of liberal-catholicism (or however you want to call it) has contributed to the decline of the denomination when other Protestant-identifying sects were and are growing.

But they're not growing. They're shrinking. Mainline Protestant churches have been shrinking for decades, some since the 60s and some since the 80s, and evangelical Protestant churches have more recently started to shrink.

According to the Pew Forum, white mainline Protestants declined from 18% of the population in 2007 to 15% in 2012. White evangelical Protestants declined from 21% to 19%. The Catholics, black and other minority Protestant churches, the Mormons, and the Orthodox are holding steady, but no Christian group is growing in the US.

The UCC numbers I gave above.

Methodists: "Between 1974 and 2012, the U.S. church lost 18 percent in worship attendance."

Presbyterians: "In the three years 2012-2014, the PCUSA’s membership declined by more than 15%."

American Baptists: "Membership peaked in the early 1980s at around 1.6 million. ... As of 2013, membership stood at 1,239,715."

ELCA: "From 2003 to 2011, average weekly worship attendance dropped 26 percent. And from 2009 to 2010, ELCA membership decreased 5.9 percent."

Disciples of Christ: "Membership peaked in 1958 at just under 2 million. In 1993, membership dropped below 1 million. In 2009, the denomination reported 658,869 members in 3,691 congregations."

And the Southern Baptists: "The Southern Baptist Convention lost more than 200,000 members in 2015 — the ninth straight year of decline for the nation's largest Protestant denomination."

All the Protestant churches in the US are shrinking, especially the mainline ones, so it's unlikely that the Episcopal Church is shrinking for a reason peculiar to it. Moreover, none of the people who study the decline in Episcopal Church membership mention churchmanship as a possible cause. The most probable cause is the decline in the birth rate of Americans of northern European stock. The whole piece is well worth reading.

If you want to argue that "the loss of a Protestant identity in the Episcopal Church and the dominance of liberal-catholicism," you're going to need to refute what I've written and give some evidence to support your claim.

Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on :

Except plenty of Protestant churches of the evangelical and pentecostal persuasion are growing or were, at least until quite recently in the case of evangelicals, growing.

I also pointed out on the correlation between the decline in white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant immigrants and U.S. churches in my original post.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
One of them is undeniably the fact that the demographics of the Episcopal Church are overwhelmingly white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestants (WASPs). The fact is America hasn't had significant WASP immigration in a hundred-ish years, which coincides with the period during which the Episcopal Church had its most power and influence in society and the country writ large since the colonial days when it was the established state church in much of the original 13 U.S. colonies.

After the colonial period, immigrants came from Roman Catholic countries like Ireland, Italy, Poland, and Mexico. The only exceptions are Lutherans from Scandinavia and Germany. The Episcopal Church never gained members from immigration. To the extent that we get new members from immigration it's Anglicans from Afria who are neither white or Anglo-Saxon and are as likely to be Anglo-Catholic as Evangelical.

quote:
originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Regardless, another reason I've often pondered is the loss of the traditional Episcopal identity as the Protestant sect.

The Episcopal Church was never the Protestant sect. We have always been small. In the areas where the Church of England was established, TEC remains relatively strong. However, congregationalism was the established church in New England and some colonies had no established church.

quote:
originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
I don't even know if you can call the Episcopal Church a Protestant church anymore. The presiding bishop says he subscribes to Catholic theology.

The current presiding bishop is no more catholic in his theology than most Episcopalians. Frank Griswald was an Anglo-Catholic. He angered Evangelicals because of his actions regarding Gene Robinson not because he was an Anglo-Catholic.

quote:
originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
I don't mean to turn this into a thread against Anglo-Catholicism, but there is no denying the fact that America was established fundamentally as a Protestant county. The Catholic trappings of most Episcopal churches these days would come as quite a surprise to 18th and early 19th century Episcopalians.

The Episcopal church survived after the revolution due to the ministry of very high church bishops. John Henry Hobart, Bishop of New York and founder of General Seminary, influenced John Henry Newman. The Tracts were less controversial in the US than in the UK. During this time, the Episcopal church grew from the verge of extinction to the influential church you are describing.

quote:
originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Does anything think this could have contributed to the Episcopal Church's decline? Clearly, there has been movement away from catholicky worship -- be it the Episcopal Church or the real Catholic church, Rome -- toward non-denominational, evangelical and pentecostal sects.

Absolutely not. The Reformed Episcopal Church split from TEC in 1870. TEC reached the height of its membership sometimes in the early 1960's. This is some 90 years after the REC split and at a time when Anglo-Catholicism was arguably still in its heyday. Blaming the subsequent decline on catholicky worship makes no sense. All of the mainline churches experienced decline. Wouldn't we expect those churches to have grown since they were Protestant? If you cite the growth of evangelical and pentecostal sects as evidence of catholicky worship hurting The Episcopal Church is it also your contention that Episcopalians from the 18th and early 19th century would find contemporary Evangelical and Protestant worship familiar or preferable? If so, you are very wrong. Establishment Episcopalians did not participate in the Great Awakening or the Second Great Awakening. Why would they prefer worship services that make those from the Great Awakening and Second Great Awakening seem stately and dignified by comparison?

quote:
originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Today, it seems a parish is either firmly Anglo-Catholic (or on the catholicky side of broad), decidedly low-church evangelical (a good example are the majority of Anglican Church in North America parishes) or somewhere in the mushy middle with no clear churchmanship.

What seems to be lost is genuine high church but not Anglo-Catholic churchmanship. I personally think one can be high on the proverbial candle of churchmanship without being Anglo-Catholic. But am I alone?

Apparently, you are confusing ritual with theology. Ritual that would have been catholic 150 years ago is now common in most parishes. However, this is true in denominations like the ELCA as well and they are the second largest Protestant denomination in the US. Also, there are still differences between Anglo-Catholic and High Church parishes. This is certainly the case with theology. For instance, Anglo-Catholic parishes would be more likely to do Benediction and venerate the BVM. High church parishes would not.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You say that, Angloid, but that's not what I'm hearing from a FiF priest I know, nor from others involved on the Higher end of things - although I'd agree that things are loosening up from the old tribal divisions as numbers decline.

I say what? I said a number of things and I'm not sure which one you are referring to.

My impressions are just that, and sketchy too. I don't get much exposure to the extremes of the C of E, and I'm sure your impressions are as valid and your contacts obviously represent another side. But one parish I do know is as conservative as they come liturgically, and very laid back on the dead horse issues. One deanery in this predominantly low-church diocese has had several clergy gatherings at OLW Walsingham, and the Walsingham festival was held last weekend in this rather protestant cathedral, including exposition and benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Other regions will have different experiences no doubt.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The Episcopal Church never gained members from immigration.

I've heard that Anglican immigrants from the British Caribbean sometimes chose the Episcopalian Church once they arrived in the USA. But of course they they were only present in large numbers in certain areas, and they wouldn't have been able to offset a more general decline among the Episcopalians.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Fair enough, Angloid, I was being too broad-brush.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

In my experience, West Indian Moravians who settle in Canada turn to the Anglican Church.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The Episcopal Church never gained members from immigration.
I've heard that Anglican immigrants from the British Caribbean sometimes chose the Episcopalian Church once they arrived in the USA. But of course they they were only present in large numbers in certain areas, and they wouldn't have been able to offset a more general decline among the Episcopalians.

And Anglicans from the Caribbean tend to be Anglo-Catholic.

Posted by catnip (# 18638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
[QB] One area that has always interested me is the decline in the Episcopal Church [is it legally still the Protestant Episcopal Church]? I know there are many theories -- demographic, theological, etc. I'm sure there are many reasons, to be honest.

Is it possible that you could get more wrong?

A Church claims to be what it thinks it is, no legal status is given in any way. It is technically Protestant from its inception--the CofE did break with Rome--although we are prone to claim to be Via Media--with a foot in both the Catholic and the Protestant sides of the Western Church. It has no doctrines of its own and it can claim every type of Christian theology within its polity. Everything from Calvinist to Charismatic and, yes, room for the Anglo-Catholics to boot. It is the Liturgy that unites us. That, to some of you seems very Catholic, but the Catholics hardly think so. Calvinist and Evangelical parishes would be "Low", Anglo-Catholic High and most of the parishes fall somewhere in Broad and these are descriptions of the Liturgy and how catholic it is.

Here in the U.S., I think the decline is due to its liberal tendency to take on the more difficult issues such as women clergy and LGBT issues. We have led the way almost every time. Back in the day it was slavery in the south. And it is not prone to overt evangelism. There have been several schisms over these issues.

quote:
One of them is undeniably the fact that the demographics of the Episcopal Church are overwhelmingly white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestants (WASPs).... since the colonial days when it was the established state church in much of the original 13 U.S. colonies.

It has never been the established state church and the U.S. has never had one--the National Cathedral has been used in a way that it appears to be and many of our early presidents were Episcopalian.

quote:
I think this is significantly overlooked by everyone.

It is a very quiet, humble church and many of its parishes are merely neighborhood churches with fairly small congregations. That was the tradition in church planting, anyway.

quote:
Regardless, another reason I've often pondered is the loss of the traditional Episcopal identity as the Protestant sect.

The 1979 Prayer Book had decidedly less influence from Calvin than the 1928 Prayer Book. Many of us loved that old Prayer Book. I think even that caused a small schism. But yes, we seem to have been moving away from and rejecting some early Protestant theologies.

Anglo-Catholicism began in England, iirc with the Oxford Movement. It is a branch, if you will, that does not influence most of the Church. TEC is mostly Liberal and I suppose some of our old Evangelical side is still hanging around but in the last 20 years I am sure our numbers have changed. Again, we have an ambiguous attitude toward other theologies and embrace people rather than theologies.

quote:
The Catholic trappings of most Episcopal churches these days would come as quite a surprise to 18th and early 19th century Episcopalians.

If you were inclined, you could go back and check our prayer books and see how little they have changed except for language.

quote:
Does anything think this could have contributed to the Episcopal Church's decline? Clearly, there has been movement away from catholicky worship -- be it the Episcopal Church or the real Catholic church, Rome -- toward non-denominational, evangelical and pentecostal sects.

It is just a style of worship based on the most ancient evidence available since the 1st Century. Some of us can't give it up. And it draws people in. We have ex-Baptists that converted due to how comfortable they felt with it. I personally hope the basic Liturgy never changes.

quote:
Today, it seems a parish is either firmly Anglo-Catholic (or on the catholicky side of broad), decidedly low-church evangelical (a good example are the majority of Anglican Church in North America parishes) or somewhere in the mushy middle with no clear churchmanship.

What seems to be lost is genuine high church but not Anglo-Catholic churchmanship. I personally think one can be high on the proverbial candle of churchmanship without being Anglo-Catholic. But am I alone?

Wow! No, I think most of us tend toward the High end of Broad. But we don't have to. I think in my own Parish it has been more influenced by a love of England and tradition than anything else.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Most US Episcopalians I've met online and in real life tend to be Anglophiles and some seem far more royalist than even the most ardent fans of the monarchy you could possibly find here.

They seem to have a taste for Beitish ale - they clearly have taste - and to have a thing about C S Lewis, G K Chesterton and Dorothy L Sayers.

They seem though know more about us than most other Americans.

And yet ... And yet ...

And yet they are different in a way I can't quite put my finger on.

'They are Anglicans, Jim, but not as we know it ...'

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

If TEC was an English diocese it would be Southwark. Discuss.

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

Well, I have one proposal for expanding TEC.

They seem to be sane in areas where the Church of England is entirely insane.

If an extraterritorial chaplaincy of TEC were established in this country, I'd be towards the front of the queue - unless, of course, it were in Cornwall.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
If TEC was an English diocese it would be Southwark. Discuss.

It is tempting to see TEC as liberal catholic in the same manner that Southwark is seen as the liberal catholic diocese of England.

My sense is that TEC, as a national church is more liberal and catholic than other national churches. But, TEC has diversity, its seminaries are not all liberal catholic. EDS is low church and liberal, VTS is broad church, Nashatoh is high church/conservative and Trinity School of Ministry is evangelical.

One of my Episcopalican acquaintances told me that the reason for TEC's historic liberalism is that most clergy and lay leaders in leadership, historically come from either General or EDS, which are the most liberal seminaries in TEC. Also, the national headquarters and major institutions are all in the Northeast, which is historically either liberal republican in politics, or Democratic.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Meet and Right So to Do, do you plan to offer any evidence to support your claim?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Well, I have one proposal for expanding TEC.

They seem to be sane in areas where the Church of England is entirely insane.

If an extraterritorial chaplaincy of TEC were established in this country, I'd be towards the front of the queue - unless, of course, it were in Cornwall.

No need to look that far. See if the CinW can spread itself out a bit- after all, I suppose we can claim to be the authentic church of the Island of Britain, continuously present since the faith came here under the Romans [Biased]

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Regardless, another reason I've often pondered is the loss of the traditional Episcopal identity as the Protestant sect.
Was there ever a time when it was the Protestant sect in what is now the U.S.? I don't think there was. Even in the 5 colonies where the CofE was established, its actual adherents were often a minority, sometimes very much a minority, and it almost reached extinction in some places after the Revolution.

The influence of Episcopalians in government and business has always been out of proportion to their numbers in the general population, at least until recently. (The same could be said, to a lesser degree, of Presbyterians.) But I don't think that ever made the Episcopal Church the Protestant sect. I would suggest that any such "identity" was only in the minds of some Episcopalians.

I once heard or read someone say that it's taken a couple centuries for TEC to reconcile itself to the fact that it's no longer the established church.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Most US Episcopalians I've met online and in real life tend to be Anglophiles and some seem far more royalist than even the most ardent fans of the monarchy you could possibly find here.

They seem to have a taste for Beitish ale - they clearly have taste - and to have a thing about C S Lewis, G K Chesterton and Dorothy L Sayers.

They seem though know more about us than most other Americans.

And yet ... And yet ...

And yet they are different in a way I can't quite put my finger on.

'They are Anglicans, Jim, but not as we know it ...'

I'll confess to an Anglophile streak as described by Gamaliel. As an American I really don't yearn for the monarchy, but it still annoys me when, say, People magazine will have the Duchess of Cambridge on the cover and refer to her as "Princess Kate." She's not technically a princess, People! Get these titles right!

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Methodism ain't chic, Episcopalian is (from memory, Dorothy Parker). A punchier version of the UK: the carriage does not drive past the church door beyond the second generation.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
originally posted by Gamaliel:
'They are Anglicans, Jim, but not as we know it ...'

Not only that but I'm Welsh just like you. [Big Grin]

quote:
originally posted by Angloid:
If TEC was an English diocese it would be Southwark. Discuss.

If being the Diocese of Southwark means liberal catholic and liberal catholic in the Church of England means what I think it means, then most of TEC would be like the Diocese of Southwark. However, if every parish in Southwark follows Liturgical Notes, then no we aren't like that. Worship at the typical Episcopal church looks like worship at the typical Roman Catholic church only with some Episcopal churches being higher or lower on the candle than the typical Roman parish.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I take the point that TEC is in some ways more varied, in others less so, than a typical C of E diocese (if there is such a thing.) Southwark is not typical (it's in London for one thing) but it does have an overall flavour or ethos. All theological positions are encompassed however, from papalist Forward-in Faith a-c to extremely fundamentalist evangelical. Liturgically it reflects that diversity.

I get the impression that TEC is much more consistent liturgically, and that just about everywhere goes by the book and celebrates the Eucharist as the main service on Sundays, whatever ceremonial differences there might be. That is not the case in the C of E, although until 100-150 years ago (ie. just before my time) it would have been very difficult to discern the theology of the clergy in the way they celebrated the liturgy. That all started to change with the Ritualists, and even they usually used the BCP.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Yes, that is TEC in a nutshell. We don't have any Protestant fundamentalists. We do still have a few Papalists.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

This book, which I haven't yet read, might have some relevant information on the trajectory of the Episcopalian Church in the USA.

Has anyone read it?

Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Most US Episcopalians I've met online and in real life tend to be Anglophiles and some seem far more royalist than even the most ardent fans of the monarchy you could possibly find here.

They seem to have a taste for Beitish ale - they clearly have taste - and to have a thing about C S Lewis, G K Chesterton and Dorothy L Sayers.

They seem though know more about us than most other Americans.

And yet ... And yet ...

And yet they are different in a way I can't quite put my finger on.

'They are Anglicans, Jim, but not as we know it ...'

Erm .... no. Not me, at least (60 year old cradle Episcopalian).

Not a fan of Lewis, Chesterton or Sayres--have never read Sayres; know of Chesterson thru Father Brown and some of his witty quotes; have some issues with some of Lewis's writings. No interest in the royal family. Have never watched 'Downton Abbey'. My Anglophile cred is pretty lacking.

When I was growing up, the Episcopal church I attended from 1963 to 1967 in Houston, Texas was High Church but not Anglo-Catholic. The only reason there was no incense was that our rector was allergic to it. We called him "Father" (my dad privately referred to him as "Pope") and little bells were rung at the elevation, or what I think is the elevation ("on the night he was betrayed, he took bread and when he had given thanks he brake it ...") during the Holy Communion service. Women's heads had to be covered--there was a little basket of mantillas in the narthex for girls and women who did not have hats. No stations of the cross, nothing about Mary. The church I attended from the late 60s to 1974 in St. Louis, Missouri was a mission church. When I called the rector "Father" for the first time, he looked a bit startled, so it was definitely not High Church. I stopped attending church in the mid-70s and didn't go back for 30 years. I was surprised to see stations of the cross in some Episcopal churches when I started going again, as that was never in the afore-mentioned Episcopal churches I attended.

The church I attend now has stations of the cross and does mention Mary in at least one prayer but it is not Anglo-Catholic. I'd call it middle of the road. There is an Anglo-Catholic shack in my city, but I think the congregation is very small; a congregation of a completely different denomination rents out the church for its services. There are clearly not enough Anglo-Catholics to make this particular Episcopal church a going concern on its own.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
[QUOTE]
The church I attend now has stations of the cross and does mention Mary in at least one prayer but it is not Anglo-Catholic. I'd call it middle of the road.

Therein lies the difference between TEC and the C of E!

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Well, seeing as Whitby is in the north of England, Hilda, there must be some Anglophile influence ...

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
[QUOTE]
The church I attend now has stations of the cross and does mention Mary in at least one prayer but it is not Anglo-Catholic. I'd call it middle of the road.
Therein lies the difference between TEC and the C of E!

Almost all TEC churches have stations of the cross. Eucharistic Prayer D in the 1979 BCP refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Eucharistic Prayer B has a place where many priests add a reference to the BVM.

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

While prayers tell you about how a church is now, fixtures like stations of the cross might be just telling you about the history of the church.

A church I used to go to had stations of the cross and a place for the reserved sacrament. I don't think the church as it was when I went there would have put those features in, but they wouldn't have tried to take them out either.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Episcopalians like to give memorials. Stations and tabernacles are nice memorials to give. However, most congregations keep some reserve sacrament in their tabernacles though only a very few use it for adoration or benediction. Stations are done at least once a year during Lent. I don't think Episcopalians see it as a particularly catholic devotion.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Almost all TEC churches have stations of the cross.

Perhaps it's a regional thing. I can't think of any around here that have permanent stations of the cross. Some churches will have them temporarily during Holy Week, or perhaps all of Lent. (And as far as that goes, I can identify some Presbyterian churches around here that have them temporarily during Lent, too.)

Ditto tabernacles. I can think of one or two Episcopal churches around here that have them, and maybe one or two others with aumbries. They don't seem to be common though. Most parishes seem to reserve the sacrament in the sacristy.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

The Stations at my church are permanent, as are the ones at some other nearby churches. Also, just about every church around here (possibly every church) has a tabernacle and reserves the Sacrament in the church itself or in a chapel. I've never seen it done in a Sacristy.

I never considered Arizona to be a hotbed of Anglo-Catholicism.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I never considered Arizona to be a hotbed of Anglo-Catholicism.

It may be more that historically North Carolina, particularly eastern and central NC, was pretty low church, and while that might no longer describe many Episcopal churches here, it probably left a legacy with regard to appointments such as tabernacles and stations. (Neo-gothic, on the other hand, took a firm hold for churches built from the mid-19th to mid-20th centuries.)

Western NC perhaps had more Anglo-Catholic influence, and I do recall now that what might be the flagship A-C parish in the state (there aren't many) does have a tabernacle and permanent stations. I can think of a number of other churches in western NC with aumbries.

Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
[QUOTE]
The church I attend now has stations of the cross and does mention Mary in at least one prayer but it is not Anglo-Catholic. I'd call it middle of the road.
Therein lies the difference between TEC and the C of E!
Almost all TEC churches have stations of the cross. Eucharistic Prayer D in the 1979 BCP refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Eucharistic Prayer B has a place where many priests add a reference to the BVM.

See, I missed all of that (adoption of the 1979 BCP and its additions of the BVM in prayers) because I stopped going in the mid-70s. I was very pleasantly surprised at hearing these prayers when I returned to the fold in the 2000s. I find the participation in the stations of the cross every Good Friday to be very moving. (I also wish more TEC churches would offer the Tenebrae service!)

The church I went to in Houston was newly-built; ditto the mission church in St. Louis after that. No existing stations of the cross in them.

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