Ship of Fools: To Halloween or not to Halloween?

Thread: To Halloween or not to Halloween? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=030539

Posted by St Deird (# 7631) on :

I was raised, in good (Australian) Baptist tradition, to see Halloween as rather evil, and certainly not to be acknowledged by good Christians.

These days, I can see some resemblance between Advent, Lent, and Halloween: all three are the deliberately dark bit, right before the more upbeat Christian festival. I've become much less inclined to avoid it.

I'm interested in what Christians here think about Halloween. Avoid? Embrace? Condemn as American culture taking over the rest of us? Or what?

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

There's no point in celebrating it, but no point in being paranoid about it either.

Our experience is mainly of little kids knocking on the door while their shepherding parents wait out on the footpath.

We admire their costumes, give them some sweets, and thus help build neighbourly bridges.

The really exciting significance of October 31 is Reformation Day.

Go nuts!

Dress up as a sixteenth century Augustinian friar, nail ninety-five faeces to a church door, pretend to marry an ex-nun, drink plenty of German beer, and throw inkpots at the wall!

Knock yourself out!

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
nail ninety-five faeces to a church door

You'll need some tough shit...

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Condemn as American culture taking over the rest of us?

AKA the standard escape-hatch of people who want to criticize something on moralistic grounds, without sounding like prudes or reactionaries.

And if you're American, or if the thing you're attacking can't plausibly be blamed on the USA, substiture "commericialization" for "American culture".

(Not saying that anything like this is what's going on in the OP, just that the inclusion of the last option reminded me of that rehtorical device.)

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

I think this year Halloween in the US is going to be an absolute rip roaring blow out, as a catharsis to the creeping approach of the election.

People can only take so much terror, anger, and anguish. I don't think I have ever seen such a widespread use of the "sad" and "mad" emojis in my news feed as I have this week. Something's gotta give. It's what human beings have always done-- confront the hardships of living with group celebration. Halloween is about thumbing your nose at the darkness, dressing up as your demons and thus conquering them. I can't think of a better time in history to take advantage of that resource.

And I predict a lot of Cheeto Jesuses.

[ 13. October 2016, 08:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Oh, and are we going to talk about the whole crazy ass fucking clown thing here, or in Hell? Because I am convinced the American version is another symptom of Electionitis, too.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

And given Frankie Boyle described one of the candidates, not unfairly I feel, as 'a shrieking pumpkin' I feel the Samhain fires are needed more than usual.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Or, the fires of the 5th November (thanks for the inspiration).

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

When I was a child in America in the 1940s, children went out trick-or-treating without their parents. If they weren't old enough to go alone or with older children (about age 7) they didn't go.

I loved Halloween. Normally we were supposed to be polite and respectful towards adults. This was the one occasion when we could say, "Give me something nice, or else!"

In fact, we never did play nasty tricks on people who had forgotten about Halloween. The only time we did anything was when a man angrily lectured us on the evils of begging and pointed to his window screens which had been soaped. We went into his nearby garden, picked green tomatoes, and rubbed them into his white porch railings.

The treats we were given in those days were very modest--popcorn, peanuts, penny candy, marshmallows. These were frequently unwrapped, and we ended up with salt on the marshmallows and powdered sugar on the popcorn. This was part of the fun.

I don't like the way Halloween is done nowadays. There is too much adult involvement.

Moo

[ 13. October 2016, 11:45: Message edited by: Moo ]

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
nail ninety-five faeces to a church door
You'll need some tough shit...

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I can't see the point of Halloween as it is just another ghastly commercialised stunt. At my church we acknowledge All Soul's Day with a special Eucharist and a ceremony when we name members of our congregation who have died in the past 12 months. Halloween just hasn't caught on where I live even though the shops have tried to draw us in. We have been having enough problems with Christmas merchandise appearing in September.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Yeah. Children, you cannot excercise your imaginations, have fun and get sweeties, because some adults cannot see past their need for petty outrage.

Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When I was a child in America in the 1940s, children went out trick-or-treating without their parents. If they weren't old enough to go alone or with older children (about age 7) they didn't go.

...

The treats we were given in those days were very modest--popcorn, peanuts, penny candy, marshmallows. These were frequently unwrapped, and we ended up with salt on the marshmallows and powdered sugar on the popcorn. This was part of the fun.

I don't like the way Halloween is done nowadays. There is too much adult involvement.

Moo

I was a child in the early to mid 1960s in the US , and children went out trick or treating alone or with siblings/friends. We got store-bought candy mostly, along with little boxes of raisins and every so often apples. Once the "razor blades are hidden in the popcorn balls/apples/raisin boxes!" rumors began, that was the end of healthier treats.

There was also "Trick or Treat for Unicef" where you would get a little cardboard container at school from Unicef and ask for small change. You were supposed to bring the box back to school the next day and the monies would go to Unicef. Dunno if that sort of thing is still done (or how much of the change actually made it back to school).

And Back In My Day (TM) parents did not throw Halloween parties for themselves and their friends, dress in costumes, etc.

I used to enjoy giving out candy to the kids, especially the teeny ones. What I don't like is seeing teenage kids making the rounds in everyday clothing and demanding candy. Because of that trend, we haven't participated in Halloween in quite some time.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
nail ninety-five faeces to a church door
You'll need some tough shit...

"To understand bad taste one must have very good taste. Good bad taste can be creatively nauseating but must, at the same time, appeal to the especially twisted sense of humor, which is anything but universal."
-- John Waters, Shock Value: A Tasteful Book About Bad Taste

I don't know whose taste is gooder.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think this year Halloween in the US is going to be an absolute rip roaring blow out, as a catharsis to the creeping approach of the election.

There are quite a few jack o'lanterns being styled after Donald Trump this year. Feast your eyes on these.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

You can rename it, Christianise it, commercialise it, ignore it - but you cannot get rid of the thing itself. You cannot get rid of the smell of the first frost, the white sickle moon in the evening, the dance of the sparks against the darkness: you cannot see the year dying in the drifts of leaves and the bare fields and not think Thou mays't in me that time of year behold...

In short, I think we are hardwired for elegiac musings and a desire to light large fires and dance round them.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Indeed. The Trumpkins are scary, though - can it really be that the US of A is considering electing a rather large, tasteless, orange vegetable as President?

Our local shopping mall is advertising a 'Funday of the Dead' for Wednesday 26th....it includes a pumpkin (or possibly trumpkin) carving competition... [Smile]

Who was it who said that there's no harm in telling kidz about witches and demons, as long as they're also told that witches and demons can be defeated (or words to that effect)?

Ian J.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Who was it who said that there's no harm in telling kidz about witches and demons, as long as they're also told that witches and demons can be defeated (or words to that effect)?

Ian J.

How about a simple, "They are not real, this is just for fun"? Or reality to that effect?

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
I was a child in the early to mid 1960s in the US , and children went out trick or treating alone or with siblings/friends. We got store-bought candy mostly, along with little boxes of raisins and every so often apples. Once the "razor blades are hidden in the popcorn balls/apples/raisin boxes!" rumors began, that was the end of healthier treats.

Same here, and good riddance.

But now of course there are granola bars.

I don't buy into any of the negative connotations of the holiday. Children love dressing up in costumes and canvassing the area for treats. People love welcoming children into their homes for a quick laugh. We typically get over a hundred children in the two hours allotted for trick-or-treating.

There are very few holidays or activities that involve safely entering every house in the neighborhood in large groups. I can't imagine a better way to do it.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Adults like dressing up as well. Fancy dress is a big business for this reason.
I don't get the objections to commercialism of Hallowe'en. Do the objectors wish a pure observance? Set table for the dead to join and all else is heathen nonsense?

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But now of course there are granola bars.

One of the greatest marketing victories ever was convincing people that a granola bar is actually good for you, and not just an inferior candy bar.

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
There are very few holidays or activities that involve safely entering every house in the neighborhood in large groups. I can't imagine a better way to do it.

This is one of the points I always raise on the Ship's annual "get off my lawn!" Halloween thread. I like having the neighborhood kids stop by my house, and saying "Hi" to their parents. I hope they know that the guy who handed them a candy bar is also someone whose door you can knock on if you are ever in trouble or locked out of your house.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I've never lived in a place where it is usual to have the trick-or-treaters enter your house.

Generally they stand at the door in the porch here.

And we do send adults with them here (to watch from the street) because it isn't safe to send under-12s out alone in the dark with the traffic we have around here. Excitement + masks + darkness + teens and possible drunks driving = a Really Bad Idea.

One thing I do loathe is the "trunk or treat" idea where adults hand out candy in broad daylight to kids who traipse no further than from one parking lot space to another. The whole point of the thing is to be mildly scared and very excited walking through the dark in a costume with your friends. Trunk or treat reduces the whole thing to nothing more than collecting calories.

[ 13. October 2016, 18:18: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

I get trunk or treat if you live in a rural area, which is I suppose how it originated- if you have a mile of corn field and county road between you and the next house, trick or treating can't be much fun. In the city or suburbs, though? No.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Not that I'm an expert, but I've only ever heard of it being sponsored by schools or churches in metro or suburban areas. The rationale behind it appears to be wholly "keep your children safe," which is IMHO ridiculous (I'm not seeing this in the inner city slums, where it might be some use).

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But now of course there are granola bars.

Born when sugar convinced us that fat was bad. Feed then to your Cabbage Patch Doll™. These peaked in 1985.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Have you liturgically-inclined Shipmates noticed how these 'folk' religion 'festivals' have their proper colours?

Halloween is orange/black, Christmas/Winterfest is red/green (though blue*/white lights on houses seem popular round here during Advent) and Easter/Bunnytime is light green/yellow.

Ian J.

(*usually a lighter blue than Sarum... [Razz]

)

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

I've noticed for years that purple has slipped in as a third Halloween color. I'm not a graphic designer, but I suspect they would tell you it jumps off of a package better than black.

(Incidentally, the flower most commonly associated with Dia de los Muertos is the marigold- orange and fall just go together, I guess.)

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
You can rename it, Christianise it, commercialise it, ignore it - but you cannot get rid of the thing itself. You cannot get rid of the smell of the first frost, the white sickle moon in the evening, the dance of the sparks against the darkness: you cannot see the year dying in the drifts of leaves and the bare fields and not think Thou mays't in me that time of year behold...

In short, I think we are hardwired for elegiac musings and a desire to light large fires and dance round them.

Brought a little tear to my eye.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Not that I'm an expert, but I've only ever heard of it being sponsored by schools or churches in metro or suburban areas. The rationale behind it appears to be wholly "keep your children safe," which is IMHO ridiculous (I'm not seeing this in the inner city slums, where it might be some use).

This reminds me of a posh Palo Alto resident who responded to a letter to the editor from one of her neighbors, bitching about kids who came over from East Palo Alto ( Google: EPA, gangs, guns) to trick or treat.

Her response was (essentially)"Thank you for reminding me to buy the extra big bag of candy so that I have enough for the poor kids, you stingy cow."

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

To be honest, I sort of like believing in the notion that the spirits of the dead come back one night each year to do mischief unless appeased with treats.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Heh. Yeah, we used to bring our congregation's kids to our suburban neighborhood for just the same reason. Got some surprise (Asians here?) but no bad remarks, thank God.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

I love Halloween. Used to have Halloween parties, now I just help a friend give out candy. Last year we had over 1000 kids come by.

Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And given Frankie Boyle described one of the candidates, not unfairly I feel, as 'a shrieking pumpkin' I feel the Samhain fires are needed more than usual.

Here's one. I expect there to be a lot around this year.

http://i0.wp.com/www.testspiel.de/wp-content/uploads/donald_trumpkin.jpg?fit=640%2C802

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I've always understood Halloween as a Christian festive evening before the celebration of All Saints where the devil and all his minions are mocked. I can't quite get my head around why Christians can't reclaim it in this sense but instead attempt the impossible task of pretending its not there.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I've always understood Halloween as a Christian festive evening before the celebration of All Saints where the devil and all his minions are mocked. I can't quite get my head around why Christians can't reclaim it in this sense but instead attempt the impossible task of pretending its not there.

I've always understood Hallowe'en as a day of fun for children (of all ages) that is loosely based on a pagan festival that Christians co-opted to convert said pagans and now that it has a life of its own, however innocent, grumpy Christians want to subvert it.

"Bad children, corpses are not fun! Unless they are nailed to a stick..."

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Have you liturgically-inclined Shipmates noticed how these 'folk' religion 'festivals' have their proper colours?

Halloween is orange/black, Christmas/Winterfest is red/green (though blue*/white lights on houses seem popular round here during Advent)

Around here, blue/white usually indicates that a house is decorated for Hanukkah.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I've always understood Hallowe'en as a day of fun for children (of all ages) that is loosely based on a pagan festival that Christians co-opted to convert said pagans and now that it has a life of its own, however innocent, grumpy Christians want to subvert it.

"Bad children, corpses are not fun! Unless they are nailed to a stick..."

(Sorry, Jesus.)

See, early Christians had the right idea- you collect holidays, you don't forbid them.
As for the idea that grownups can't dress up-- nonsense. I suppose grownups can't do the hokey- pokey or ride a Ferris wheel either.

What grownups can't do is show up at people's houses with an empty pillowcase and a menacing smile. I'm looking at you, clowns.

[ 14. October 2016, 16:00: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I think the obvious answer is that Hallowe'en is not the American treat or treat stuff e]with pumpkins but is in it's r]traditional form a pagan festival that pagans d still actually celebrate. It's for that reason that many Christians steer clear of it.

It's the reason the Church Christianised the event into a remembrance of the departed rather than a ritual of the dead.

Maybe we should spend more time with the Christian festival than the 'Disney' version of pagan ritual.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Let's be clear. The Day of the Dead festivals have been throughout many cultures.

Halloween’s origins date back to the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain (pronounced sow-in). The Celts, who lived 2,000 years ago in the area that is now Ireland, the United Kingdom and northern France, celebrated their new year on November 1. This day marked the end of summer and the harvest and the beginning of the dark, cold winter, a time of year that was often associated with human death. Celts believed that on the night before the new year, the boundary between the worlds of the living and the dead became blurred. On the night of October 31 they celebrated Samhain, when it was believed that the ghosts of the dead returned to earth. In addition to causing trouble and damaging crops, Celts thought that the presence of the otherworldly spirits made it easier for the Druids, or Celtic priests, to make predictions about the future. For a people entirely dependent on the volatile natural world, these prophecies were an important source of comfort and direction during the long, dark winter.

Halloween did not come to the United States until 1846. While some some people recall trick or treating in the 40's, it did not become a universal tradition in the United States until the 1950's.

Yes, there is a lot of commercialization that started in America. We do have people who want to make a buck anywhere, anyhow.

You can turn this festival around. Once I had a pumpkin outside my home with a cross cut into it. Had quite a few positive comments over it. Some Christians will also hand out children's tracts along with the candy--though I caution against the "hell fire and brimstone" tracts, just a simple invite to share All Saint's celebrations either on the 1st of November or the first Sunday in November.

Of course, next year, 2017 will be the 500th celebration of the beginning of the Reformation. Many Roman Catholic dioceses and Lutheran synods are having joint services. The Pope will be going to Wittenberg to celebrate with the Lutheran World Federation president and other Lutheran bishops. It will be a tremendous celebration.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think the obvious answer is that Hallowe'en is not the American treat or treat stuff e]with pumpkins but is in it's r]traditional form a pagan festival that pagans d still actually celebrate. It's for that reason that many Christians steer clear of it.

Rubbish. Children are not doing any of the pagan things, they are doing the fun things. Not everything in life has to circle around the cross.
"I only purchase Chrysler auto-mobiles, because if you say it right, it kinda sounds like Jesus".

quote:

It's the reason the Church Christianised the event into a remembrance of the departed rather than a ritual of the dead.

The church "Christianised" a pagan holiday to help to facilitate conversion. Full stop. Same kind of familiar yet different tactic that cults use to do the very same thing.

quote:

Maybe we should spend more time with the Christian festival than the 'Disney' version of pagan ritual.

Yes, nothing brings 'round the youth like ringing all the joy out of something.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think the obvious answer is that Hallowe'en is not the American treat or treat stuff e]with pumpkins but is in it's r]traditional form a pagan festival that pagans d still actually celebrate. It's for that reason that many Christians steer clear of it.
Rubbish. Children are not doing any of the pagan things, they are doing the fun things.

I didn't say the children were doing the pagan things.
In my dreadfully spelled posting (apologies for not being more careful) I said that it was because Hallowe'en in its original form is still observed by Pagans with Pagan rites, that we should avoid it.

The other stuff is an American gloss - a bit like Christmas, which many people celebrate with the trappings without actually celebrating Christmas.

Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :

My kids' Sunday School teacher told them that "Halloween is bad, because it celebrates evil, and evil is bad m'kay". I was delighted when my son reported this to me, and then said "but that's rubbish - Jesus defeated evil, so we are allowed to make fun of it".

I don't like children demanding sweets with menaces (in a town where many children are so entitled it makes your head spin), so we go door to door "have-a-treating" - where you give sweets/homemade biscuits that look a bit like vampires to your neighbours (and of course, they all have a little treat to give back in return).

What I dislike about Halloween is the cost of it - either in money when you have to purchase a costume for each child, or in brain-ache as I try to think of a creative way to turn my children into dragons/zombies/knights templar with things we have lying around the house.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Who was it who said that there's no harm in telling kidz about witches and demons, as long as they're also told that witches and demons can be defeated (or words to that effect)?

Ian J.
How about a simple, "They are not real, this is just for fun"? Or reality to that effect?

I told a group of kids the other day that kids dressed up as monsters so that they could remember that monsters on TV, movies, etc are just people dressed up, too. If they get to be the monster, it makes monsters in general less scary.

[ 14. October 2016, 20:34: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
My kids' Sunday School teacher told them that "Halloween is bad, because it celebrates evil, and evil is bad m'kay". I was delighted when my son reported this to me, and then said "but that's rubbish - Jesus defeated evil, so we are allowed to make fun of it".

I don't like children demanding sweets with menaces (in a town where many children are so entitled it makes your head spin), so we go door to door "have-a-treating" - where you give sweets/homemade biscuits that look a bit like vampires to your neighbours (and of course, they all have a little treat to give back in return).

What I dislike about Halloween is the cost of it - either in money when you have to purchase a costume for each child, or in brain-ache as I try to think of a creative way to turn my children into dragons/zombies/knights templar with things we have lying around the house.

Yay, fish son! [Yipee]

Oh, and definitely, Real Halloween to me is making your own costume, out of stuff at home or thrift store finds. Not that I blame anyone who succumbs to a six year old begging for the rubber Batman ears,

And I LOVE the have a treat idea-- that's the way you "Christianize" it!

[ 14. October 2016, 20:49: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
While some some people recall trick or treating in the 40's, it did not become a universal tradition in the United States until the 1950's.

That's right. At the old people's home they always tell me that in the 20s, 30's and 40's Halloween was very different than what it turned into in the 1950's. In the old days in our neck of the woods (outside Philadelphia) it was a not-so-pleasant night of destructive mischief and harassing homeowners.

As a child of the 1950s I am happy to have only experienced the Disney version. [Biased]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I said that it was because Hallowe'en in its original form is still observed by Pagans with Pagan rites, that we should avoid it.

The other stuff is an American gloss - a bit like Christmas, which many people celebrate with the trappings without actually celebrating Christmas.

You do not see how you contradict yourself here?
Non-Christians celebrate Christmas without becoming Christian. Some do so with only vague ideas of the Christian rituals.*

As far as the dreaded "American" bits, they are fewer than many think. Trick or treat? British Isles. Costumes? British Isles. Haunted houses and the level of commercialisation are among the very few things that did not originate in the UK and Ireland.

*One could argue this is also true of some Christians

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Some historians and folklorists argue that the Jack o'lantern has its origins in Ireland in an early Irish medieval folktale involving a wandering Irish principal character who outwits the devil involving a carved turnip with a lit lamp in it. I've no idea if it's true that it is that old, but I have read the story.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
At the old people's home they always tell me that in the 20s, 30's and 40's Halloween was very different than what it turned into in the 1950's. In the old days in our neck of the woods (outside Philadelphia) it was a not-so-pleasant night of destructive mischief and harassing homeowners.

It seems to have varied in different parts of the US. In this post I described the Halloweeens I experienced in the 1940s.

Moo

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted By Gramps:

quote:

Halloween’s origins date back to the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain (pronounced sow-in). The Celts, who lived 2,000 years ago in the area that is now Ireland, the United Kingdom and northern France, celebrated their new year on November 1. This day marked the end of summer and the harvest and the beginning of the dark, cold winter, a time of year that was often associated with human death. Celts believed that on the night before the new year, the boundary between the worlds of the living and the dead became blurred. On the night of October 31 they celebrated Samhain, when it was believed that the ghosts of the dead returned to earth. In addition to causing trouble and damaging crops, Celts thought that the presence of the otherworldly spirits made it easier for the Druids, or Celtic priests, to make predictions about the future. For a people entirely dependent on the volatile natural world, these prophecies were an important source of comfort and direction during the long, dark winter.

This is something of a modern myth and some say Samhain (sa-wayn) has strong links to a full moon festival after Lunasa, which would probably place it somewhere in the middle of September (generally speaking). Samhain is still marked in some communities today, but the principal practice is of 'mumming' which has nothing at all to do with anything connected to Halloween past or present. True mummers still have a certain 'cred' and honour in some communities but it is disappearing. There are some later folklore stories that do link stories of the dead and spooks and evil little people to Samhain, but most of these were collected by people like Hyde and Gregory during the early 1900's so there's a good chance that they were consciously linked to arising notions of Halloween.

The main problem with trying to say that Samhain was a Celtic festival of the dead is that it simply isn't true, despite what modern Irish Wiccans and Druids would have you believe and war over on Wiki. There was never one Celtic faith in Ireland. We really know very, very little, but of the precious little we do know we can now say with reasonably strong confidence that there were multiple deities that generally speaking were not shared among tribal groupings. Some were shared, but even among tribes their roles and activities seem to have differed wildly. Miranda Green is an excellent place to start but currently there is a lot of very interesting work being done to work backwards from the re-appropriation and layering done by those early monks right through to the 1100's.

I've probably said too much, but will add just one thing. The Irish druid's and priestly caste didn't require spirits for their divining practices. One of the more alarming developments in history and archaelogy in recent times is the realization that some of those Roman rumours were true; namely, blood, heads and intestines (human) were what really divined the future, or whatever else. Sadly, this caste seems to have held power and sway among the vast majority of tribal groups - or at least, that is the current thinking.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
While some some people recall trick or treating in the 40's, it did not become a universal tradition in the United States until the 1950's.
That's right. At the old people's home they always tell me that in the 20s, 30's and 40's Halloween was very different than what it turned into in the 1950's. In the old days in our neck of the woods (outside Philadelphia) it was a not-so-pleasant night of destructive mischief and harassing homeowners.

I know from one of those regional dialect quizzes that the night before Halloween is still (apparently) called "Mischief Night" in New Jersey and Philly, and is set aside by teenagers as a night for egging and TPing houses. So maybe the mischief part of the holiday just runs strong in that part of the world?

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I know from one of those regional dialect quizzes that the night before Halloween is still (apparently) called "Mischief Night" in New Jersey and Philly, and is set aside by teenagers as a night for egging and TPing houses. So maybe the mischief part of the holiday just runs strong in that part of the world?

Yes, that was true in my childhood. It went out of style in the 1970s.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

The information I used came from the History Channel. But my point remains: the day of the dead is found in all cultures. It is not a "Christian" festival. All Saints Day is the Christian festival. Halloween literally means All Hallows Evening. Depending on the culture you come from All Saints Day starts at Sundown.

You have something similar with Christmas. For Germanic cultures, Christmas starts at Sundown, the 24th of December.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I've been hired to fact-check material from the history channel. Don't believe everything you hear.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I've been hired to fact-check material from the history channel. Don't believe everything you hear.

Will you be fact-checking Ancient Aliens? That will keep you gainfully employed for some time. [Big Grin]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Yes, God. Hold our sister Gwai up, she does righteous work. [Overused]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Who was it who said that there's no harm in telling kidz about witches and demons, as long as they're also told that witches and demons can be defeated (or words to that effect)?

Ian J.

I think GK Chesterton (or George MacDonald?) said something to the effect of "Fairy stories don't tell children that monsters exist--they already know that. Fairy stories tell them how monsters can be defeated."

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Prestor John:

quote:

Will you be fact-checking Ancient Aliens? That will keep you gainfully employed for some time.

You got there before me [Big Grin]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I'm 'bah humbug' about the whole thing. But, when my kids were small we simply talked of ghosts and demons as any other fantasy character - which is what they are.

Luckily all the young kids in our area are Muslims and don't seem to bother with haloween.

I dislike horror films and books because I'm a big softy.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Loved Halloween as a child, we often got home baked cookies, candy apples, and popcorn balls from our neighbors. One set of parents usually went with us but stayed in the background. Where we live the local merchants open downtown for several hours and have someone out front with treats. We do not have anyone come to our house because it is on a steep hill. On the flat area of our neighborhood they close the street for an hour so the kids will be safe. [Devil]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Luckily all the young kids in our area are Muslims and don't seem to bother with haloween.

I have always heard that trick-or-treating is one of the first bits of American culture which immigrant children adopt. Free candy is enough for most kids to be all over it.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

I am working part time at a Big Box that has a very large Halloween section. I have been zoning that section for the last week.

We have a large international student population (about 13% of the community).

Of the international families, I have noticed the Chinese have taken quite an interest in Halloween.

Among the Muslims it seems that if the family appears more secular, they seem to be perusing the section too.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

Where I live there are a lot of first generation immigrants who are Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese. They have no problem participating in Halloween.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Luckily all the young kids in our area are Muslims and don't seem to bother with haloween.

I wonder if that's because (some) Muslims believe they shouldn't make/have images of any living thing? So maybe a mask, jack-o-lantern, etc. would be forbidden?

Of course, many Halloween images are of the undead, not the living, so... [Biased]

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

My (probably terribly unsound) Catholic position is that there's nothing much wrong with having a night in honour of the unrestful dead before we spend the next 30 days praying for them to rest in peace.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

I love Haloween. It's always been one of my favorites. Dressing up, being out at night without parents (as was the way back in my day), candy, decorating the house, getting scared in a fun way.. I'm still a big fan, and am sorry that due to the way my house is situated, we don't get many trick or treaters. Not enough to really justify sitting in the family room waiting for the few who do stop by.

In terms of my faith, I don't really see any relevance. There is zero religious aspect to the way I celebrate the day. It isn't even "all saints" eve in my tradition. It's just a day of fun. That some of the fun involves scary images is no different from watching a scary movie (which I actually don't like), and that somewhere some Pagans or even Satanists might be using that day to celebrate something non (or un-) Christian is none of my business. I'm sure there are many days when the same is true. That there was a Pagan celebration from which Halloween sprung is also no big deal: same holds for many other holidays, Christmas in particular.

This year I'll be in Guatemala on "The Day of the Dead" (their version of Halloween). I"ll be on a sibling vacation with my brother and sister (a first for us). We will be attending the "Giant Kite Festival" that occurs on Nov. 1. People in all towns fly kites and visit cemeteries on that day, honoring their departed loved ones. but in several towns they take this to another level, building HUGE, beautiful kites. I really like the idea of honoring your ancestors, and the thought of flying a kite up to "heaven" as part of that appeals to me as well (as a symbol, of course). I'm very much looking forward to it.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Where I live there are a lot of first generation immigrants who are Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese. They have no problem participating in Halloween.

However, when I lived in a community of mostly recent Chinese immigrants, explaining Halloween was a challenge-- mostly because it happened at the moment I was standing in their doorway with my 4 year old, trying to convince them that "I know I'm a random stranger, but my son is dressed like a pirate so you give him candy."

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Where I live there are a lot of first generation immigrants who are Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese. They have no problem participating in Halloween.
However, when I lived in a community of mostly recent Chinese immigrants, explaining Halloween was a challenge-- mostly because it happened at the moment I was standing in their doorway with my 4 year old, trying to convince them that "I know I'm a random stranger, but my son is dressed like a pirate so you give him candy."

My work around is to visit only those houses that are decked out appropriately. I find if they have children/grandchildren in school then they seem very eager to go along.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
I know from one of those regional dialect quizzes that the night before Halloween is still (apparently) called "Mischief Night" in New Jersey and Philly, and is set aside by teenagers as a night for egging and TPing houses. So maybe the mischief part of the holiday just runs strong in that part of the world?

I remember 'Mischief Night' as November 4th - the night before Guy Fawkes Night' or 'Bonfire Night'. It refers to the 'mischief' of the plotters as they made their arrangements to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

Halloween wasn't celebrated much in the North of England in the 1950's, probably because Bonfire Night was the big event. However I do remember making witches' hats and other spooky decorations at junior school - a CofE school.

AFAIK the American idea of Halloween developed from Irish immigrants who, being Catholic, wouldn't have celebrated Guy Fawkes Night.

These days, what with Health&Safety and the price of fireworks having taken the edge off Bonfire Night, I can see the appeal of Halloween for children. It's fun. Children have a right to have fun.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

sorry - didn't attribute above quote - it's from Og, King of Bashan

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

My local big mall has an entire shop dedicated to the sale of Halloween merchandise.
Though not tin baths for apple bobbing, or washing lines to hang buns for trying to eat with hands behind the back.

It will probably become an Xmas shop next week.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

My local Co-Op is already selling Christmas stuff, virtually alongside the Halloween junk.

[Disappointed]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Yup. And Waitrose.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

Public Service Announcement

If this thread turns into a whinge about how early people have Christmas decorations out or the like, it's going to die a horrible death. Posters are invited to study the terms of the OP.

/hosting

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

The 'reformed' churches should embrace it cognitively as part of the possibly distinctly Christian - not pagan Samhain - tradition Allhallowtide, I don't know what the problem is. Mocking death and other evil?

Xmas has been going the inevitable cultural, solstitial way from whence it came for centuries, encouraged by Henry VIII and Cromwell, but still survives with Advent. The church used to be brilliant at redeeming these celebrations.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Martin:

quote:

The church used to be brilliant at redeeming these celebrations.

Today the church collapses under the weight of it's own lazy assed negativity and outrage. It rarely offers anything creative and constructive these days. All Hallowes Eve is a prime example of the church even getting outraged at itself. It's like its eating itself and loving it.

Posted by Odds Bodkin (# 18663) on :

The problems with Halloween (not Samhain, different issue) are pretty much the same as the ones with Christmas, in that they are both a festival dominated by the loud and the greedy.

Done well, both are times of quiet family cosiness; one with added ghost stories whilst the other has the Christmas story...although ghost stories are part of both traditions in many places.

Done badly, both are times of cacophonous, brash, self-indulgent, idiocy; each with the usual naff and gross offerings from Holywood.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Where I live there are a lot of first generation immigrants who are Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese. They have no problem participating in Halloween.

The vast majority of my trick & treaters are Chinese and Vietnamese (an element in the demographics of my barrio)-- I do not know if the Chinese are among the members of the two substantial Chinese evangelical congregations in my area (the small Anglican one seems to be smaller than ever now that they have lost their priest).

I have just surveilled the internet and find little reference to Monday night commemorations of the vigil of All Saints in local churches, but perhaps some of that is transferred to the Sunday preceding, much like the (somewhat orgiastic) Hallowe'en parties of my younger friends have been transferred to the previous Saturday. I gather that we will have vespers at the Cathedral of the Pantocrator, but there are no Monday services at Our Lady Joy of All Who Procrastinate so far scheduled, all very moot as I will be in a train coming back from Toronto. The Dominican university chapel up the hill will have vespers (the only place in Ottawa for RC vespers AFAIK) but it will likely only have the usual group of intense doctoral students.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0