Ship of Fools: Female Deacons in RC Church

Thread: Female Deacons in RC Church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

It seems that Pope Francis is going to set up a commission to look at the possibility of female deacons in the RCC and I wondered what Shipmates made of it. At least, I can predict what most Shipmates would say (good thing, long overdue, we want women priests/bishops/Popes etc.) so I'd be most interested in the response of conservative RCs. If this isn't a good idea, why not?

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

I'm not a conservative RC, but I'm guessing that the two main objections are a) that any female deacons mentioned in the NT et. seq. were not the same thing as the Order of Deacons as the Church understands it and b) if the Church ordains female Deacons supporters of women Priests, Bishops, Cardinals and Popes will treat it as the thin edge of the wedge. There's probably also c) Pope Francis is a dangerous liberal protestant who ought to be opposed on principal, but I doubt that anyone will cough to that particular thesis.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

This so obviously belongs in Dead Horses ("the role of women in church") it's a wonder it didn't transport itself there independently of any hostly action.

See you on the other side...

/hosting

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

My apologies. I've been away so long I'd forgotten that women were dead horses, as well as gays.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

A relevant post from an adjacent thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Not to mention Paul's mentions of women actually holding positions of leadership in the church elsewhere. From blogger Fred Clark:

quote:
Can you spot the factual error in this Reuters headline? “US Catholics cautiously hopeful women may one day be deacons.”

Yep, you could read that whole piece and never encounter the fact that the church in Rome used to have women deacons. English-speaking readers of the Bible in translation might be confused about that since our English translations make up new and unusual titles to avoid acknowledging that the New Testament names women as deacons. The same word translated “deacon” or “minister” for Stephen and Philip gets rendered “servant” for women like Phoebe. (And in an acrobatic maneuver of double-think, that erasure-by-translation is sometimes itself cited as evidence that woman deacons are unthinkable.)

Since I’m a chapter-and-verse evangelical type, let me cite chapter and verse: Romans 16:1-16. There’s the deacon Phoebe. And Priscilla. And Mary. And Junia, an “apostle.” And Tryphaena and Tryphosa and Julia and, well, just way too many women for anyone to credibly pretend that women in church leadership is some kind of brand-new, unprecedented thing that it’s somehow “conservative” to oppose.

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

A couple of things (though I am not a 'Conservative Roman Catholic', but I was once!)

I understood that the Western Church had always had woman deacons, inasmuch as Carthusian nuns (of whom there are only a tiny number) are ordained deacons. Quite what language is used I do not know, and I have no sources for this to hand.

My guess is that this Commission will be much like the Synod on the family. The pope makes noises which seem to anticipate change, and encourage people who want it, but the final outcome will be no change, or maybe a slight blurring of things (Maybe opening the ministry of Instituted Lector to women). People whose hopes have been raised will then be disappointed and this will lead to disillusionment, and possibly the narrative that ‘Good Pope Francis’ wants change, but is being blocked by reactionary forces in the Vatican (when, in fact, it is far from obvious what the Pope does want).

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Carthusian nuns (of whom there are only a tiny number) are ordained deacons.

I find this hard to believe.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I looked it up - some find it hard to believe, some don't. I suspect the disbelievers are closer to the truth, much as I would like to be of the other party. Curious situation, though.

Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on :

An abbess was allowed to wear a maniple and stole when singing the gospel reading at Matins on certain feast days. I have never heard of then actually being ordained though.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

The RC church in parts of France has paid lay workers, many of them female, who teach a lot of catechism classes etc. and do a lot of the local outreach. There was an interview with one of them in the local paper last time I was in Brittany. I'll see if I can find it and translate some bits, as I don't remember the exact scope of their duties, but I remember priests commenting that these workers kept the faith of the community going in many areas and that the priest just visited to celebrate Mass and check everything was OK.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Carthusian nuns are consecrated virgins, but not ordained as such.

AIUI, what's under consideration is something more like deaconesses, such as are found in some Anglican denominations or recently revived in a few Orthodox churches, rather than the admission of women to Holy Orders.

[ 08. August 2016, 06:38: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I wished I could understand how the veneration of traditions, whatever their source, must be arbiter of modern understandings of what might be meet and so to do.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
An abbess was allowed to wear a maniple and stole when singing the gospel reading at Matins on certain feast days. I have never heard of then actually being ordained though.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that one need not be in orders to sing any of the lessons in the Office. It seems strange to me in any case for a person to be diaconally vested in order to sing an office lesson (the Eucharist is different, of course). And as far as I know Matins/The Office of Readings/whatever they're calling it this week only has a Gospel lesson when the occasion is a vigil.

Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
An abbess was allowed to wear a maniple and stole when singing the gospel reading at Matins on certain feast days. I have never heard of then actually being ordained though.
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that one need not be in orders to sing any of the lessons in the Office. It seems strange to me in any case for a person to be diaconally vested in order to sing an office lesson (the Eucharist is different, of course). And as far as I know Matins/The Office of Readings/whatever they're calling it this week only has a Gospel lesson when the occasion is a vigil.

It as a very old custom that only the Carthusian nuns were allowed to continue. It is difficult to know what it really meant originally. It was connected to their status as consecrated virgins.

Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on :

I found this too late to add to the post. The catholic encyclopedia article on the Carthusians talks about it a bit, at the bottom of the entry.

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
An abbess was allowed to wear a maniple and stole when singing the gospel reading at Matins on certain feast days. I have never heard of then actually being ordained though.
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that one need not be in orders to sing any of the lessons in the Office. It seems strange to me in any case for a person to be diaconally vested in order to sing an office lesson (the Eucharist is different, of course). And as far as I know Matins/The Office of Readings/whatever they're calling it this week only has a Gospel lesson when the occasion is a vigil.

If you go to a RC Benedictine monastery in England for Sunday Matins (as a Vigil office or on the day) you will find a priest read the Gospel. Customs vary from house to house. In some it is the Abbot, in some the hebdom. In some he wears a stole, in some not.

I see the position of Carthusian nuns is not quite what I thought. I guess that makes the last recorded female deacon in the western church St Radegund in the 6th century.

Posted by Joesaphat (# 18493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
A couple of things (though I am not a 'Conservative Roman Catholic', but I was once!)

I understood that the Western Church had always had woman deacons, inasmuch as Carthusian nuns (of whom there are only a tiny number) are ordained deacons. Quite what language is used I do not know, and I have no sources for this to hand.

My guess is that this Commission will be much like the Synod on the family. The pope makes noises which seem to anticipate change, and encourage people who want it, but the final outcome will be no change, or maybe a slight blurring of things (Maybe opening the ministry of Instituted Lector to women). People whose hopes have been raised will then be disappointed and this will lead to disillusionment, and possibly the narrative that ‘Good Pope Francis’ wants change, but is being blocked by reactionary forces in the Vatican (when, in fact, it is far from obvious what the Pope does want).

That's bang on. Just kicking problems into the long grass until the last Western liberal generation dies out. The Vatican's just become more conscious of its media image in the contemporary world, but there'll be no or next to no change.

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