Ship of Fools: Exodus 22:18... Do not allow a sorceress to live

Thread: Exodus 22:18... Do not allow a sorceress to live Board: Chapter & Worse / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=76;t=000014

Posted by Simon (# 1) on :

Verse nominated by Bullfrog

"Do not allow a sorceress to live" (Exodus 22:18, in context)

Bullfrog comments: First off, there's the whole divinely-sanctioned execution thing. Second off, there's the issue of "So, what the heck is a 'female sorcerer' anyway?" Thirdly, there's the Salem incident.

Mertseger comments: We witches are rather put off by the sentiment. That, and do we have to be condemned right next to the pig-fuckers (Exodus 22:19)? Seriously, however, there have been several instances of people being killed by the licence provided by this verse in recent years, particularly in Africa. And it led pretty much directly to the Malleus Maleficarum.

How much of a problem is this verse? Click "Vote Now" to cast your vote!

[ 31. July 2009, 10:58: Message edited by: Simon ]

Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :

I think a decent understanding of this verse needs to split the issue into several parts.

1) The issue of the death penalty. This is the standard penalty throughout the Mosaic law - perhaps because the costs of life imprisonment would be grossly excessive and the quality of life of the prisoner a violation of any decency. So we need to establish whether being a sourceress is a serious offence given the theology of the OT.

2) There seem to be two elements as to why this is a serious offence:

a) The allegation that a sourceress is using her powers to damage other people directly - be it cursing them or causing spirits to attack their property. Last week in church a member who had just come back from Uganda was telling us the story of a little girl whose father had arranged for his family to be cursed by some form of wizard, and the little girl was suffering with horrible dreams and severe headaches. Prayer was able to address the dreams, and the headaches seemed to be getting better as well. My point is that such things do still happen - let alone what was the case then.

b) The impact of the attention paid to such spiritual powers as distracting attention from the God of Israel. IF we are willing to accept the story of the fall of Jerusalem in the days of Jeremiah as being the direct judgement of God for their turning away from him, then anyone who is encouraging the people of Israel to worship other gods is guilty of high treason to the people by turning them from their true King to serve another. IMHO such behaviour passes the 'serious offence' test.

As a result of these arguments, I have no problem with the presence of this verse in the bible. How you apply it to the modern world is far more problematic, and clearly the abusive behaviour that some of our more enthusiastic Christian brethren show towards witchcraft is wholly unacceptable. Equally however where there is evidence that a person is claiming spiritual powers and they are leading to objective harm, it is not inappropriate for society to defend itself, exactly as it would if the cause of the harm was purely material. To dismiss such events as impossible reveals an ideological rejection of facts that is blinkered in the extreme...

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

<snip>... I have no problem with the presence of this verse in the bible. How you apply it to the modern world is far more problematic, and clearly the abusive behaviour that some of our more enthusiastic Christian brethren show towards witchcraft is wholly unacceptable. Equally however where there is evidence that a person is claiming spiritual powers and they are leading to objective harm, it is not inappropriate for society to defend itself, exactly as it would if the cause of the harm was purely material. To dismiss such events as impossible reveals an ideological rejection of facts that is blinkered in the extreme...

So who judges the objective harm? It's lucky the Ugandan girl wasn't accused of witchcraft herself.
Children are being harmed daily because someone -too often a Christian religious leader- asserted they caused objective harm.

Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

<snip>... I have no problem with the presence of this verse in the bible. How you apply it to the modern world is far more problematic, and clearly the abusive behaviour that some of our more enthusiastic Christian brethren show towards witchcraft is wholly unacceptable. Equally however where there is evidence that a person is claiming spiritual powers and they are leading to objective harm, it is not inappropriate for society to defend itself, exactly as it would if the cause of the harm was purely material. To dismiss such events as impossible reveals an ideological rejection of facts that is blinkered in the extreme...
So who judges the objective harm? It's lucky the Ugandan girl wasn't accused of witchcraft herself.
Children are being harmed daily because someone -too often a Christian religious leader- asserted they caused objective harm.

I'd strongly question that any child will be a 'witch'. But beyond that - yes there are horrible cases out there, but I don't think we can claim there's not something genuine going on in some cases. Certainly jumping up and down with a big stick saying 'You mustn't do this' will merely result in it going underground and generate a further sense of grievance at cultural imperialism.

Posted by TiggyTiger (# 14819) on :

It's very hard to define what a 'witch' is. The Ugandans may refer to certain people as 'witches' because Westerners have referred to them as 'Witchdoctors'. On other occasions they will go to these same people for physical and spiritual healing.

In England you have Wiccans who sometimes refer to themselves as witches and sometimes other people do, Hedgewitches who are largely unqualified herbalists, various sorts of Pagan who may or may not perform spells and then there's Barbara and Reg who just like to dress up in funny clothes at the weekend or jump naked over a few bonfires for kicks. All of these people may be seen as harmless or dangerous, depending on your perspective. When I lived in Lancaster, a lot of local social workers and therapists were involved in some kind of witchy activity in their spare time. It was that kind of place!

I remember when this poor guy who called himself a witch gave a very innocuous talk at Greenbelt and some people started forming a ring around the tent and trying to pull it down - it got a bit scary.

And look at the methods that have been used to prove witchcraft - that mysogynist Matthew Hopkins who was paid on the basis of the number of witches he caught!

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

Today he'd have been a male meter maid.

Posted by BWSmith (# 2981) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TiggyTiger:
It's very hard to define what a 'witch' is.

Not really. Just see if they "weigh the same as a duck".

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0