Post a reply
My profile
login
|
Register
|
Directory
|
Search
|
FAQs
|
Board home
»
Ship of Fools
»
Special interest discussion
»
Kerygmania
»
Iakobos = Jacob? or James?
» Post a reply
Post a reply
Login name:
Password:
Message:
HTML is disabled.
UBB code is ON.
Images are OFF.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cross eyed bear: [QB] I've just checked: Jacob of the OT is translated Jakob in German. However, Jakobus in the NT seemsto be part of a NT trend, we have Lukas, Petrus, Paulus, Timotheus, Saulus, Markus, Johannes and Matthäus, to name a few. As I have no knowledge of the biblical languages, I'm looking forward to hearing some theories from the experts on board! [/QB][/QUOTE]
Instant smilies
Instant UBB code
UBB code? What's that then?
Options
Disable smilies in this post.
<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#005B82"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tr bgcolor="#005B82"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="2" color="#FFFFFF" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T H R E A D R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>mousethief</b> <br /><small># 953</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2010,11,23,3,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Why is "jacob" translated "Jacob" in the old testament, but "James" in the new testament? When did that start? Does it go back to the Vulgate? One of the early English translations? How is it translated/transliterated into other languages such as German, French, etc? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>BroJames</b> <br /><small># 9636</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2010,11,23,6,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The Vulgate appears to use 'Iacob' for Jacob in the OT, and 'Iacobus' for James in the NT with the Latin reflecting the Greek in the NT and the Hebrew in the OT. But the Vulgate may be influenced by the Septuagint which also renders the name Ιακωβ whereas the Greek NT uses Ιακωβος so it looks as if the differentiation of the names goes back that far.<br /><br />James comes from Jacob via the Latin Iacobus with a dialect version Iacomus. This - which is what I thought I already knew - is the tale from <a href="http://tinyurl.com/bfgf8b" target="_blank">Wikipedia</a> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>la vie en rouge</b> <br /><small># 10688</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2010,11,23,8,35,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> In French it is Jacques, which has always sounded closer to me (although in the OT it is still Jacob). <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>BroJames</b> <br /><small># 9636</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2010,11,23,9,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Yes, it looks as if French elides the 'omu'/'obu' part of the Latin, whereas English elides the 'co' part. We need an expert in diachronic phonology to take this further, methinks. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>cross eyed bear</b> <br /><small># 13977</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2011,0,18,20,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The NT German is Jakobus (for what I've always called the books of James) I must look up whether Jacob of the OT is translated at Jakob or Jakobus. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>cross eyed bear</b> <br /><small># 13977</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2011,0,19,6,27,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I've just checked: Jacob of the OT is translated Jakob in German. However, Jakobus in the NT seemsto be part of a NT trend, we have Lukas, Petrus, Paulus, Timotheus, Saulus, Markus, Johannes and Matthäus, to name a few. As I have no knowledge of the biblical languages, I'm looking forward to hearing some theories from the experts on board! <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>mousethief</b> <br /><small># 953</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2011,0,19,7,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BroJames:<br /><strong> Yes, it looks as if French elides the 'omu'/'obu' part of the Latin, whereas English elides the 'co' part. We need an expert in diachronic phonology to take this further, methinks. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you explain what you mean here? The "co" is not elided in "jacob" the OT guy, why is it in "jacobus" the NT guy? And that still doesn't explain where the "m" comes from? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>BroJames</b> <br /><small># 9636</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2011,0,19,12,0,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I was just thinking about how English goes from the Latin Iacobus/Iacomus to James essentially by dropping the 'co' and going to Ia...bus/Ia...mus (for this purpose I am treating the bus/mus endings as phonologically similar variants), and French goes to Jacques essentially be dropping the 'obu/omu' and going to Iac...s.<br /><br />My post was responding to la vie en rouge.<br /><br />She notes that French, like English treats the NT version of the name differently from Jacob in the OT.<br /><br />I think (as per my earlier post) that the differentiation in the names goes back to the Greek versions of the scriptures. I've not seen a convincing account of the reason for it. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Unjust Stuart</b> <br /><small># 13953</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2011,0,19,15,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I've recently been looking at a Greek passport which gives the client's name as "Themos". He says this translates into English as James. <br /><br />Is this the common modern-Greek version of James?<br /> <br /> <small>[ 19. January 2011, 15:15: Message edited by: Unjust Stuart ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>mousethief</b> <br /><small># 953</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2011,0,19,17,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BroJames:<br /><strong>My post was responding to la vie en rouge. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So glad you explained this bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>BroJames</b> <br /><small># 9636</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2011,0,20,15,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Sorry - over-explanation. In my defence, I didn't pay attention to the timing of the posts, and felt mine could have been read as a follow-up to my earlier post with a cross-post in between.<br /><br />Incidentally, my suspicion about the 'm' in Iacomus, is that it just comes from the phonological closeness of the 'm' and 'b' sounds. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>mousethief</b> <br /><small># 953</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2011,0,20,18,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I wonder if one of our linguistics experts could say if there was a b->m shift at some point in Latin or French or whatever? I'm aware of the existence of such shifts (which I believe were first commented on by Jakob Grimm?) but of course don't know all of them. <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
Contact us
|
Ship of Fools
|
Privacy statement
© Ship of Fools 2013
UBB.classic
TM
6.5.0
