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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny S: [QB] [b]TT[/b] - I don't understand your post. You seem to be agreeing with what I said about Paul (i.e. that he does encourage others to view him 'like a Father') but then you don't engage with Matthew 23 at all. What do you think Jesus meant? [/QB][/QUOTE]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#005B82"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tr bgcolor="#005B82"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="2" color="#FFFFFF" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T H R E A D R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Johnny S</b> <br /><small># 12581</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,8,23,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> This thread is really about two NT passages.<br /><br />Protestants love this one from Jesus because they think it is one in the eye for the Catholics:<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><i>7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’ 8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.</i></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Matthew 23: 7-9</b><br /><br />However, I've been reading 1 Timothy recently and have been struck by the dominant metaphor of the church as family. 1 Timothy 3 holds up good fathers as those who make good elders/overseers. Likewise the opening verses of 1 Timothy 5 make this analogy explicit:<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><i>1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity. </i> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>1 Timothy 5: 1-2</b><br /><br />So I'd been thinking that actually I can see how natural it would be for the custom to arise to call a Priest 'Father' and therefore had been puzzled by what Jesus said in Matthew 23.<br /><br />That is until it suddenly hit me that family is being used as a simile in 1 Timothy 5. Those verses say that we should treat older men (literally elders) <i>as if</i> they were our Fathers.<br /><br />The more I thought about it the more it makes sense. If we put Matthew 23 together with 1 Timothy 5 we see that the church is to be <i>like</i> a family, but it is not to replace the family entirely. That makes sense of the context too where Timothy is told that the church is to care for widows but not in such a way as to remove the responsibility of the biological family.<br /><br />I think that if we are adopted into a new family when we believe in Christ then it is right to treat our church leaders <i>like</i> a father but the church has become a cult when we treat them <i>as</i> our father.<br /><br />Hence I think I now understand Jesus' prohibition in Matthew 23 and why it is not a good idea to call church leaders 'Father.'<br /><br />ISTM there is a tension here - if we do not view the church as our new family then we tend to idolise the nuclear family but if we view the church as literally our new family then it becomes a cult. (You could put all the 'hate your mother and father' type gospel passages alongside Matthew 23 in this.)<br /><br />Does this make sense, or is it just my Protestant bias showing? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TurquoiseTastic</b> <br /><small># 8978</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,8,23,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Even though I am from a Protestant tradition and would feel uncomfortable saying "Father", I cannot see that this is any more than a matter of taste.<br /><br />Paul often actually calls the churches his "children" and in 1 Corinthians 4:15 says "You might have ten thousand slaves to look after you in Christ; you still have no more than one father, and it was I who fathered you in Christ Jesus, by the gospel".<br /><br />So Paul, it would seem, awards himself the title of "father", in his own letters!<br /><br />And he even goes so far as to say "Take me for your pattern, just as I take Christ for mine"!<br /><br />So, I would submit, it cannot be completely out of the question to call a church leader "Father". <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Latchkey Kid</b> <br /><small># 12444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,0,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I think the (patriarchal) family then had a much stronger hold of allegiance than it does today. Which is why Jesus' hyperbolic talk of hating the members of your family; and the following of James and John in response to the call of Jesus (in the more Law conscious Gospel of Matthew without regard to their father Zebeddee who was there with them) was a radical departure from the "Honour your Father and Mother" commandment. Perhaps this can be viewed as Jesus replacing/fulfilling The Law.<br /><br />There is no way there will not be a wide variety of interpretations. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Johnny S</b> <br /><small># 12581</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,6,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TT</b> - I don't understand your post. You seem to be agreeing with what I said about Paul (i.e. that he does encourage others to view him 'like a Father') but then you don't engage with Matthew 23 at all.<br /><br />What do you think Jesus meant? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Alan Cresswell</b> <br /><small># 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,7,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I know it's not really engaging with either passage, but ...<br /><br />I'm next due to preach on Mothering Sunday, when I also get to consider the love of God the Father that extends even to giving his only begotten son. It's a tradition on Mothering Sunday for the kids to give flowers to the mums in the congregation. I've already decided I'm going to modify that by making a point about the church fulfilling many of the roles of mother to members of the church - nurturing in faith, caring for those in need, loving each other etc. The same would be true of the church fulfilling the role of father as well. Not an individual within the church, but the church as a whole - albeit a ministry that is fulfilled in part by individuals acting according to their particular gifts and callings. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Barnabas62</b> <br /><small># 9110</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,7,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Alan's comment shows that there is good fathering and good mothering, and that's what we seek to encourage and emulate. <br /><br />Johnny S<br /><br />I think that's the inwardness of Matthew 23:8. Jesus sees the scribes and pharisees as bad Fathers of the people for the various reasons he gives. They do not guide and protect, they mislead and demonstrate indifference. So they are not worthy to be called Fathers. <br /><br />The danger being that if you call someone Father (who is not your real father) your mind may attribute to them all the good characteristics of fatherhood which ultimately belong to and emanate from God the Father. That way you can get led up the garden path.<br /><br />[That's probably a bit eisegetic, of course, but then you've read a fair bit of my stuff here and so you know what to expect.] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Johnny S</b> <br /><small># 12581</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,10,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Barnabas62:<br /><strong> The danger being that if you call someone Father (who is not your real father) your mind may attribute to them all the good characteristics of fatherhood which ultimately belong to and emanate from God the Father. That way you can get led up the garden path </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would have thought that a far bigger danger is that you project on to this person any issues you have with your biological father.<br /><br />I've certainly experienced that. That was more the kind of issue I was wondering over. I'm not saying that it is 'wrong' to call a Priest 'Father' in some moralistic sense - because, as we've seen, the NT says that Ministers are like Fathers.<br /><br />However, I'm beginning to wonder if the point Jesus is making is that gospel ministry is all about getting people to become increasingly dependent on God and not on his human representatives. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Barnabas62</b> <br /><small># 9110</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,11,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Johnny S:<br /><strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Barnabas62:<br /><strong> The danger being that if you call someone Father (who is not your real father) your mind may attribute to them all the good characteristics of fatherhood which ultimately belong to and emanate from God the Father. That way you can get led up the garden path </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would have thought that a far bigger danger is that you project on to this person any issues you have with your biological father.<br /><br /></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Both/and? I guess the negative/positive balance is based on personal experience.<br /><br />I had a great relationship with my dad and so relating to God as Father doesn't the baggage that other folks are saddled with. I also appreciate my good fortune. <br /><br />But whether our relationship with our earthly fathers, or those we have perceived as father figures, has helped to make us more secure or more suspicious, Jesus' words still seem to work well as a corrective. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lamb Chopped</b> <br /><small># 5528</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,11,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Adding more to the mix--I really think it was not the term "Father" or "Rabbi" he objected to, so much as the underlying belief that one ordinary sinful person could be a source of spiritual life for another. Spiritual nurture, maybe; but there are those in and out of the church who want to be seen as the beginning and end of their disciples' whole life. (I'm thinking for instance of the very controlling but popular "teachers" who surface in the church periodically, and gather a cult following.) <br /><br />And it's only the Messiah, only the Father, who can rightly be treated as that. For a mere sinful mortal to take on those airs is a form of idolatry. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>tclune</b> <br /><small># 7959</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,12,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It's worth mentioning that "rabbi" means a lot more than just "father." It can mean "great," "lord," "revered," etc. in addition to "father." So we lose a lot of the flavor of the word if we think only of the english word "father."<br /><br />What I wonder is just how long the word had been used for a religious sage in Jesus' time. It may well have been a new afectation then. If so, I can imagine that He found it rather presumptuous to use such a gradiose term for a mere mortal.<br /><br />--Tom Clune <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Hedgehog</b> <br /><small># 14125</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,15,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Is the prohibition against calling anybody father in some ways similar to Jesus' statement (in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19): "Why do you call me good? Don't you know that nobody is good except your Father in heaven?" <br /><br />This fits with Lamb Chopped's idolatry concept. I doubt Jesus was really concerned with people describing things as good rather than bad, but wanted us to always remember that the only True Ultimate Good is God, the True Ultimate Father. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Johnny S</b> <br /><small># 12581</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,9,21,24,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by tclune:<br /><strong> It's worth mentioning that "rabbi" means a lot more than just "father." It can mean "great," "lord," "revered," etc. in addition to "father." So we lose a lot of the flavor of the word if we think only of the english word "father." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You've lost me Tom.<br /><br />You do realise that Jesus makes two separate prohibitions in Matthew 23? (one sentence about 'rabbi' and another one about 'father', separated by a kai.)<br /><br />Or am I missing something? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>tclune</b> <br /><small># 7959</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,10,12,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Johnny S:<br /><strong>You've lost me Tom.<br /><br />You do realise that Jesus makes two separate prohibitions in Matthew 23? (one sentence about 'rabbi' and another one about 'father', separated by a kai.)<br /><br />Or am I missing something? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I lost you beause I was being incoherent. My bad.<br /><br />--Tom Clune <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#F2F3F3"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Nigel M</b> <br /><small># 11256</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,10,15,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> An interesting exercise, playing these two passages alongside each other. I assume from Matt. 23 that the key is in verses 11 and 12 -<br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...The greatest among you will be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The emphasis in the passage seems to be on outward expressions of honour and the expectations placed on others. Is it the title that matters so much, though, or the expectations placed on others? Would we be prohibited from calling a professor 'Professor' on the basis that Jesus told us not to? Or is this about how those with authority / skills / competences actually demonstrate them to the benefit or dis-benefit of others?<br /><br />An example might be that a leader of a clan might well attract assorted titles of honour, but what matters is how the leader actually leads. Does he burden his clan with expectations to their detriment while he himself sits comfortably on his cushioned seat or does he lead by example, taking the lead in supporting the clan in bringing peace and security (life)?<br /><br />In the community of Jesus' followers there might well be those who carry a leadership role in guiding others, but perhaps the point is that they lead by example, not ordering their group to go first down what might be a very dark alley. In this way someone could be called a Father (or pastor, priest, minister, reverent, Most High Organ Pumper, etc.) and be <i>like</i> a father at the same time. The risk might be that a label is attached rather too hastily to someone who has not yet had the opportunity to earn his or her stripes in the kingdom. Another interesting comparison here is to put the Matthew 23 passage alongside chapter 16, to see those who shut the kingdom of heaven in the faces of others are contrasted with a follower of Jesus who can open the kingdom...<br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">”But woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You keep locking people out of the kingdom of heaven! For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in.”<br /><br />versus<br /><br />“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Matthew 23:13 / 16:19</b><br /><br />16:19 has a parallel in 18:18 as well.<br /><br />Are these passages comparable? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E0E6E6"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Johnny S</b> <br /><small># 12581</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/UBB-non-cgi/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> Posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2012,1,13,3,22,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><hr /> </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nigel M:<br /><strong><br />In the community of Jesus' followers there might well be those who carry a leadership role in guiding others, but perhaps the point is that they lead by example, not ordering their group to go first down what might be a very dark alley. In this way someone could be called a Father (or pastor, priest, minister, reverent, Most High Organ Pumper, etc.) and be <i>like</i> a father at the same time. The risk might be that a label is attached rather too hastily to someone who has not yet had the opportunity to earn his or her stripes in the kingdom. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That certainly would fit with 1 Timothy 5:<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><i> 22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. </i></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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