quote:And again, I refuse to lump any group together, be it Republicans, rapists, or EDL supporters, as an indiscriminate mass, or immediately assign motives to people who turn up here with non-conforming views. Posters sign up as individuals. If they start trying to act as representatives of a constituency, they'll soon fall foul of the commandment against crusading.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy:Saying that there are no unacceptable views is extremely dangerous in my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Eutychus:And who, precisely, is saying any such thing?As I just said on the thread in question, there are views which I find reprehensible, but what I [or you] personally find reprehensible is an entirely separate issue to the rules and practices of this debate space and how they are enforced.
quote:What would you do if a neo-Nazi showed up here and posted flat-out racist things in Purgatory? Would you object? If I called that person a racist would you tell me I was over the line? Would you expect all of the people of color on the Ship to allow such things to be said of them and be polite about it? Neo-Nazis are not less human than I am, but their views should not be countenanced.
quote:Originally posted by goperryrevs: I think Eutychus's post was entirely reasonable, and your response on the thread was not, especially questioning his capacity as a host in purgatory.His post was not about the acceptability of views. It was about not deciding you know exactly what a person thinks just because they a part of a group. That's called not being judgemental.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: Well both my view and yours are acceptable on this website, apparently.
quote:All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challenged
quote: However you telling me that I can't talk about the suitablity of someone as a host on this website given what they've written about what they'd do as a host on this website isn't.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy:And you replied, saying what you'd do as a host
quote:And your responses to me were written in terms of you as a host.
quote:Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:Since you identified a post where Eutychus was posting in a non-hostly capacity I'm not sure where you're getting your "written about what they'd do as a host" from.
quote:You can, of course, talk about hosting decisions (it's what the Styx is for). But, ultimately the decision about whether someone is suitable as a host isn't your decision to make. And, you don't get to decide that someone is unsuitable and their hostly decisions can be disregarded (though, again, in this instance it doesn't appear to be something posted in a hostly capacity that you're disagreeing with).
quote:Those of us who do have the responsibility of deciding who is and isn't suitable as a host are not planning on changing the hostly line-up any time soon.
quote:Originally posted by Doc Tor:goperry is (rightly, imo) pointing out that questioning a shipmate's ability to host, when they are posting as a shipmate on a Purg thread, was a clear breach of protocol, and quite possibly a breach of decent fistful of the 10Cs - though that is for the Admins to decide.
quote:You've been here long enough to know that things like this are brought to Styx first. That you are here subsequently is beside the point.
quote:Originally posted by Eutychus:When answering the hypothetical "what I would do as a host", I made it clear what I would do in my capacity as a host.
quote:You don't seem to be able to draw the distinction between my personal convictions on a given issue and my approach to hosting in general, which includes accommodating views other than my own provided they comply with the 10 Commandments - something which I am not alone in assessing, by the way.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy:Maybe you need to talk to Alan Cresswell because he seems to think that given host tags were not used then there is nothing to discuss in Styx.
quote:Originally posted by Doc Tor:Which is why he's discussing it in Styx.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: hosted by the management going forwards.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy:You maybe need to straighten out your argument.
quote:Originally posted by goperryrevs:Yup, as usual the flaw is with other people, not in your understanding.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote:Originally posted by Doc Tor:Which is why he's discussing it in Styx. He's discussing the fact that the point I'm disagreeing with wasn't a hostly decision (I never said it was) and that the decision about host suitability isn't my call (I never said it was).Neither of which are addressing the concern, which is about unacceptable views and the way that they are hosted by the management going forwards.
quote:Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: Just read the introductory text for Purgatory. quote:All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challengedSome views are going to be challenged much more vigorously than others. And, some views are more difficult to express without being a jerk. But, we try to judge on how people behave here rather than what they believe.
quote:Originally posted by goperryrevs: Actually, they was probably too personal. I apologise. But...- I don't see in Eutychus's post the strange interpretation you've gleaned.- Your response in purgatory was entirely inappropriate.These aren't arguments. They're statements.
quote:Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:Just read the introductory text for Purgatory. quote:All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challengedSome views are going to be challenged much more vigorously than others. And, some views are more difficult to express without being a jerk. But, we try to judge on how people behave here rather than what they believe.
quote:Originally posted by Doc Tor: It would end up in Hell. Very quickly.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy:OK, so explain to me how you understand what he has written about neo-Nazis, rapists and EDL racists.
quote:Originally posted by goperryrevs:His post was not about the acceptability of views. It was about not deciding you know exactly what a person thinks just because they a part of a group. That's called not being judgemental.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote:Originally posted by Doc Tor: It would end up in Hell. Very quickly. So you seem to be agreeing that a racist neo-Nazi view isn't necessarily breaking C1.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: So you seem to be agreeing that a racist neo-Nazi view isn't necessarily breaking C1.
quote:Originally posted by Moo: quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: So you seem to be agreeing that a racist neo-Nazi view isn't necessarily breaking C1. It would depend on how this view is expressed.Moo
quote:Originally posted by Ohher: Second, people's psychological innards are far too complicated, layered, and variable to expect that one's racism, however deeply and sincerely held, will consistently turn up in every reaction, subsequently-acquired experience, and principle.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote:Originally posted by Eutychus: quote:You don't seem to be able to draw the distinction between my personal convictions on a given issue and my approach to hosting in general, which includes accommodating views other than my own provided they comply with the 10 Commandments - something which I am not alone in assessing, by the way. I don't see any difference between what you say you'd do as a host and what you say you'd do as a host when you use the host tags, no.
quote:Originally posted by Eutychus: quote:You don't seem to be able to draw the distinction between my personal convictions on a given issue and my approach to hosting in general, which includes accommodating views other than my own provided they comply with the 10 Commandments - something which I am not alone in assessing, by the way.
quote:Originally posted by RooK:mr cheesy, how would you define the boundary of your concept of "extreme views"? Or are you suggesting that "we would just know"?
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote:Originally posted by RooK:mr cheesy, how would you define the boundary of your concept of "extreme views"? Or are you suggesting that "we would just know"?Exactly the point I'm trying to discuss. But if the consensus of the management is that there is no view which is too extreme (and only the way it is debated that is the problem), there isn't much point in discussing where the line is. As I said, I believe this is a change and not a good one.
quote:Originally posted by Ricardus: Remember Myrrh, who denied the Srebrenica massacre?Planked, yes, but not specifically because of her views on Serbian war crimes.
quote:Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote:mr cheesy, how would you define the boundary of your concept of "extreme views"? Or are you suggesting that "we would just know"?Exactly the point I'm trying to discuss.
quote:mr cheesy, how would you define the boundary of your concept of "extreme views"? Or are you suggesting that "we would just know"?