As for the other - though I doubt anyone would want to see people treated unkindly, it seems to me that a vicar who upheld the idea (which many members of his congregation would share) that sex belongs only in marriage would immediately be judged cruel. Well, it works in the other direction as well! People who sincerely hold these beliefs, and often who wish to teach the same to their children, can easily feel they do not matter, in certain settings where those who feel otherwise seem the main focus of attention.

I knew of an RC parish, some years back, when special ministers of Communion first were introduced. (It was a small parish - I doubt they actually needed such assistance.) It seemed that everyone distributing communion was either divorced and remarried or in concubinage. I imagine this was intended to show tolerance, but many married people took this as a slap in the face.

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A friend told me about a church who were having problems with 'less desirables' coming in off the street during church services and distracting the congregation.
So the church built an adjoining room to the main building, with a thick glass window, so the said less desirables could watch the service and not disturb the others..

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WHAT?!?!?

PREACH TOO LONG.

However, we must be careful not to be flippant with those trying to express pain. I doubt anyone expects to find a church where people are not sinners - but one may meet many who were deeply hurt by specific ways in which they were treated, often by those whom they had trusted. The "hypocrites" line may be an excuse at times, but there are others who speak this in a voice of huge pain, based on being treated with cruelty by those who most professed to be charitable.

We need to learn to listen! If someone is bitter towards the church, and perhaps considering returning, there probably is little we can do that would be worse than telling them that everyone is a sinner or that everyone is a hypocrite. That only shows we're denying the validity of their feelings, which may have far deeper dimensions than we know.

Actually, there is one way in which those within the church can be even worse than garden variety bastards! At least the latter do not profess to have anything except their own interests at heart. The cruelty that I have seen, justified in the name of the "good of the community," or for some "religious" good, is all the worse because it has such a sense of "you don't matter - I did it for the good of the Church." The more devout we are, the easier it is for us to have "holy" reasons for being horrid.

And who are the 'Us'? Well, it varies. Ditto the rapidity and extent to which your non-Ussness is signalled.

I would further mischeviously assert that when you find the church that doesn't, you haven't found the one truly tolerant accepting congregation, you have just found your particular Us.

My former church ran an Alpha course to which mostly parishioners came. However there was one fellow who visited and brought up some questions (just as he should in an Alpha Course). The next week, one of the course leaders handed out a several page treatise on the heresies that the visitor had touched on in the course of his inquiries.

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Originally posted by Rross:
I have a (possibly apocryphal) one... A friend told me about a church who were having problems with 'less desirables' coming in off the street during church services and distracting the congregation.
So the church built an adjoining room to the main building, with a thick glass window, so the said less desirables could watch the service and not disturb the others..

Rr.

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The thing that really puts me off church is cliqueness(sp?). I know a church that I went to for a while, but found it really difficult to be accepted as part of it, even though I was helping out at events and stuff like that.

As for 101 ways to put people off church, I highly recommend letting the congregation 'eccentrics' corner the poor newcomer at tea until they run screaming for the hills.

Search and rescue squads can be very useful on these occasions.

A bring and share supper and a barn dance / ten pin bowling ...

Plenty of people woudl find those worthwhile activities but one that my friends would not be tempted by. there is something about the words "bring and share supper" that give me a nervous rash.

Oh, and don't forget the cringe inducing signs outside churches. They can scare people off before they've even got to the door. I live in Headingley, the "world epicentre of naff church signs"!

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Originally posted by Old Fashioned Crab:
I was referring to the thing about stupidity being forever.

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Refute it then.

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Originally posted by Renee:
... there was one fellow who visited and brought up some questions (just as he should in an Alpha Course). The next week, one of the course leaders handed out a several page treatise on the heresies that the visitor had touched on in the course of his inquiries.

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An academic, no doubt. Thank you, Renee, since I'll remember this one. This is exactly the sort of thing I would do, and with the best of intentions. I adore refuting heresies, and tend to assume that the hearer would be enlightened as to the truth by seeing the error.

For instance, I cannot stand being mobbed by strangers. I'm quite happy to go into the church, have my chat with God, shake the vicar's hand and depart. I don't really care if a fulsome regular rushes up and introduces himself and invites me pressingly to the coffee after (I never go to the coffee after, not even in my own church).

On the other hand, I can easily see that some people would be offended to be left to their own devices and would feel "unwelcome" if they were not escorted along to the coffee hour.

So if your church is too friendly I won't come back -- but just watch and see how many people post after me to say that such-and-such a place was not friendly enough and so they never returned!

Hour and a quarter sermon - Hell material indeed - that's how God will punish me if I've led a wicked life - He'll make me listen to long sermons and sing songs with 10 verses over and over again.

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Originally posted by Old Fashioned Crab:
If you really want to kill people's commitment, try inviting them round to discuss their concerns about the fact that the Church will not allow women to sing in the choir,

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You mean you can actually get enough for a choir without having any women in it??

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don't forget the cringe inducing signs outside churches. They can scare people off before they've even got to the door. I live in Headingley, the "world epicentre of naff church signs"!

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Jesus is the
STRONGEST LINK
Who'll never say goodbye.

or

Believe In God Brother
He won't eject you from His House

I swear these are real.

I believe that the mind can only absorb as much as the butt can endure.

Another, very nice young RC priest had spent about five years in diocesan office work before he first was assigned to a parish. Many of his co-workers had been feminist nuns, who were always complaining that they didn't get enough recognition, that they were barred from the altar, that people didn't appreciate their wisdom, etc. Naturally, he had the impression that this was a pressing issue for one and all. In parish work (and far more women than men were active there), any lady who asked to speak with him received the response, "I'm sure you'd rather be talking to a woman." Effects were naturally very negative - the impression was that he did not want to be bothered. (When asked to visit the sick, he always tried to send a female Eucharistic minister... with the same effect.)

One churchwarden I knew thought that acting very enthusiastic with "new people" would make them get involved in the church. He'd praise them, tell them he hoped to see them socially, propose ways they could use talents, etc. Unfortunately, the wonderful ideas never materialised... and, as soon as another new family showed up, he did not so much as greet the last "batch" - he was too busy using the exact same lines on the new.

In one parish where I was, the priest seemed very glad I was there at first, encouraging me to meet people, suggesting an area of service, and so forth. It hurt terribly when he no longer did so, and suggested I might be called to a hidden, solitary life and such. I still often wonder what I did wrong or who I offended.

Another surefire way to get people running in the opposite direction: invite them to a social gathering of some kind, then let them know you did so because you "felt sorry for them." Or, better yet, accept an invitation from them, and say later that you only did so because you feared they'd become emotionally upset had you declined.

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In one parish where I was, the priest seemed very glad I was there at first, encouraging me to meet people, suggesting an area of service, and so forth. It hurt terribly when he no longer did so, and suggested I might be called to a hidden, solitary life and such. I still often wonder what I did wrong or who I offended.

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